What a doddering old fart!

http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/ bcpid1137883380/bctid1640107138

That's the footage if you're interested.

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1137883380?bctid=1640107138

Thank you for your video. It's great to see the devil loosing his cool.

I'm most disappointed in the non-actions of Mr. Mbeki of South Africa who has been almost supportive of his brother-in-law Mugabe.... Mugabe has shown absolutely no regard for his people or for the rest of Africa, choosing only to do anything to anybody in order to hold power.

He had an opportunity to be an Elder Statesman and chose to be a petty, power-grabbing Dictator....

This post was deleted because it contravenes AllAfrica's commenting guidelines.

Hey black African, YOU are the one that is a disgrace! Why dont you use skin lightning products to change if you dont like who you are. You are a very sorry ,sad soul that hasn't recovered from white brainwashing!

Emmauniq is a man with guts to state how he feels. He is black and proud of it. Why should anyone tell him to use skin lightening products? He is obviously very comfortable with who he is. YOU Kubatana are the disgrace because you support a loser of a man - a murderer, a thief, a useless man incapable of even feeding his own nation. All your leader has is a big mouth and covers up for his inadequacies by the use of the gun. Yes, if Mugabe was my leader, I too would not know where to hide my face as he is a shameless loser.

Kube... you are just so racist arent you. Must be so hard for you living in New Zealand surrounded by white people. Oh... and the cold. Best you get out of there before the election thats coming... I hear it gets really dangerous in New Zealand...

Don't worry about Kuba, he benefits directly from ZANU-PF so bear that in mind when you read any of his rubbish.

Oh Kubatana......You sad sad case! Still spewing racist crap from OMO country I see.......Get a life, and come back to Zim

Yes, you are right but please, it is spelled "apartheid" and not freaking "apathide" ok?! And it literally means "being apart/separated" and for God's sake PLEASE pronounce it correctly! It is pronounced ah-part-hate and not freaking apa-th-ide, ok? This really pissis me off so much when foreigners, like Brits and Yanks, mispronounce and spell it wrong. I mean, it's blamed everyday for everything that goes wrong in S.A, right? So please just spell and pronounce it the right way!!!!!!

This post was deleted because it contravenes AllAfrica's commenting guidelines.

mugabe has lost his mind and does not even know what country he is dictating!I think the whole world laugh load and hard at the geriatric mugabe not even knowing his own country.What an idiot thing for any leader to say in 2008 "We are not a British colony"! It was the funniest thing i have seen for a long time in politics, Winston Churchill could be rolling drunk on the floor and still make more sense!

At least 2,150,269 adult Zimbabwean said that Mr. Mugabe is their president and that brown and bush can go hang.

Be lucky if 1,500,000 voted for mugabe as the rest would have been fake votes, then out of that 1,500,000 a large number would not have voted for him by there own choice! The people of Zimbabwe did not tell the west to go hang it was geriatric mugabe that did and thinks Brown is president of Zimbabwe as he even named him as the President!hahahahahahahaha

Leave it to the limited western mind to totally misunderstand what Mr. Mugabe was saying, i.e., that Brown thinks he's the president of Zimbabwe. The pathetic western media fools took something and ran with it while Africans were laughing at their DAs. This was a facetious reference to the fact that since brown is spending so much effort in trying to run the affairs of Zimbabwe that he must "think" that he is the president of Zimbabwe. Do you understand now? LOL!

Actually, only 1 person said that B&B can hang. The rest were bullied into voting for ZANU-PF and considering the MDC didnt actually participate, its a bit hard to say what the true vote would have been. So the best indication is realy the first election where people were allowed to vote "relatively" freely, and Tsvangarai won.

All of the observing bodies said the election was flawed. McGarbage increased his share of the vote by over 100% and this time the results were out within days as opposed to a month. 15000 people voted in one constituancy with 3000 registered voters.

At least one fool believes the fiction from the Herald*LMAO*

All those dead people were really good at marking X next to Mugabe's name on the ballot.

1st of all are you white? if so you really sound racist! but live up to the current times in which an overwhelming majority of the global population is seeking mutual understanding and an in-depth well-rounded evidence of issues.

you need to understand that Mugabe is wrong in what he does. that everybody acknowledges... but do remember that Britain is to blame because they failed to honor the Lancaster Talks agreements. "Mugabe is obsessed with Britain"...that's good to say over dinner. HE IS NOT OBSESSED, HE IS SIMPLY TRYING TO MAKE THE SPECTATING JUDICIARY WHOM THEY NEED TO FIRST SETTLE THE SCORE WITH IN ORDER TO BRING THIS DRAMA TO A CLOSE. the world needs to cohere and objectively seek a solution to this problem. before we demonize Mugabe we ought to ask the British government to honor their side of the agreement.

on the other hand, one needs to be familiar with Mugabe's rhetoric, more especially that of african leaders. i believe what Mugabe mostly likely meant was Brown is the Prime MInister in the sense that he tends to poke his nose into Zimbabwean affairs. so if Brown is generally condoned to make earth-quaking comments about Zimbabwe, then Mugabe as much as he is condoned even by his detractors, he should be allowed to exist as president.

nevertheless we ought to hail the african leaders for the compromise that they seek to broker in Zimbabwe just as they did with Kenya. we need peace in Africa. Zimbabwe's situation is perpetrated by outsiders and it is adversely affecting my country which now has to fend for Zim refugees. the only way out is to offer Mugabe an executive pardon. come to think of it, why is it that other leaders can mess up and go scott free while african leaders who make the same and at times less grotesque mistakes are turned out for prosecution. THE WESTERNERS SHOULD DO TO MUGABE WHAT HE DID TO THEIR KITH AND KIN, IAN SMITH...AND WHAT MANDELA DID TO BOTHA. they "gave [them] back [their] humanity".

in closing, the journalist who wrote this piece has just proven to me, as a media studies graduate, that there is no such thing as objectivity. this is pure propaganda.

I think frank-talk should give up his media studies. He is rummbling like Mugabe. What Mugabe did is a disgrace to all Zimbabweans. I suppose if you have not lost relatives and friends you can afford to talk about Mugabe as a hero. Mugabe hates Britain? How come the presidential ceremony looked like an inheritance from Britain?

first of all i would like to pass a disclaimer to your convictions that the presidential ceremony was an inheritance of Britain. your convictions are your affair. but come to think of it... if we are to endorse your convictions we would rather have you say "reproduction" than "inheritance". if you studied the least of history with a shred of analytical skills you should know that most of our cultures were imposed, especially by those who were preachers of the gospel. and you need understand that Mugabe and his henchmen, and his supporters like me, we have nothing against the British and their culture because we understand what "acculturation" is... the rage is not between 'peoples'. it between spaghetti headed imperialist against helpless governments such as Mugabe's.

and i ought to remind you that i admitted that Mugabe is now out of order. but before we point the finger we should deal the problem from its roots. the british government should apologize to the Zimbabwean people for turning their democratically elected leader into a madman. AND YES I HAVE RELATIVES AND FRIENDS IN ZIMBABWE...SOME OF MY AUNTS AND COUSINS ARE STILL LIVING IN ZIMBABWE. i have been to Zimbabwe so many times. i acknowledge the economic crisis. i acknowledge the unfairness in some governmental procedures. but remember THERE IS NO REVOLUTION WITHOUT A COST ESPECIALLY TO THE MEANS OF LIVING. i believe in God and His manifest word--and on that note i might add that what i claim herein is in the Bible and shall fulfill the truth in the Holy Scriptures.

if you grew up in Africa you shall understand how gossip, bitterness, ire and jealousy and stealth have caused conflict and animosity amongst families. now think of it on the level of lateral relations.

i shall recommend one of the many books you can read objectively before you make another empty, vague and porous comment. find and read "The Confessions of An Economic Hitman" by John Perkins. if you have read it, read it again and then again. if you still maintain the same conviction bang your head against a brick wall. if there is no change after these you might consider Mugabe's remedy, "go hang".

oh the pains of being brainwashed, my brother! go see a priest. watch out some are homos these days.

good to see him rattled - but worried he'll take it out on the povo...

I think Mugabe should play the video back to himself, he might then realise that he has lost his mind. What a joke he is!

If this is an example of Mugabe losing his mind, there are a number of international leaders inclusing Bush, Brown, Blair and some Europeans who should have been commited long ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whhbPVrb5KM

As for reporters being disrespectful to presidents/prime ministers, the ITV reporter should consider himself lucky that only his ego was dented. If he'd tried that on with most Western leaders he'd really know what Secret Service agaents and body guards were all about.

Under the circumstances, Mugabe and his aides demonstrated considerable restraint.

He never would have been allowed to get that close to Bush or Brown. Rather embarrasing security for the old man. He did snap though. Looks like he's starting to feel the pinch. His old buddies not recognising him anymore...

Hahaha, that must be why Bush, Brown & Blair run successful and rich countries without resorting to violence to win votes. As for you saying about reporters being disrespectful to presidents/prime ministers, in this case he was being disrespectful to an illegitimate president who doesn't deserve any respect at all. even his dog would piss on him, thats if it hasn't starved or been beaten to death.

Oh gosh!!! "Bush, Brown & Blair run successful and rich countries...." LOL!!

Are you in some kind of institution where you're allowed Internet access only to allAfrica's website and not allowed to watch telly, listen to radio or read newspapers?

The US runs an economy with an ever-growing international balance of trade or, in plain English, an ever-growing, unrepaid debt. That's rich and successful, is it? You must have had a different economics teach to me.

And then there's the euphemistically named "credit crunch" which to all intents and purposes is a 'Western recession' in all but name that has seen the banking sector propped up by Central banks the world over to the tune of "trillions" of US dollars after years of hype, hot-air and over-inflated markets using good old-fashioned Central bank guarantees and (OMG - tell me it ain't so) printing money! LOL!

And the UK's fourth largest bank required nationalisation to avoid a complete loss of confidence (aka hot-air) in that country's banking system.

"Bush, Brown & Blair" ran anything but successful countries and the only thing their countries are rich in is debt. Perhaps China, Russia and India could try cashing in their US dollar reserves instead of continuing to prop up Western economies - the world would know, in an instant, that the US dollar is, in 'fact' valueless.

But of course that would result in global financial systems collapse, political upheaveal, massive shifts in balances of power and, of course, social unrest, aka civil violence and war.

Bush, Brown & Blair have run countries on hot air and when they allow you to turn on the telly or access newspapers wherever you are, you will realise that their financial bankruptcy was exposed about a year ago, to the day.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7336744.stm

so in other words your trying to say they don't, well your as thick as Mugabe himself. Next time either the US or UK governments Kill for voting for a different party , displace thousands of people from there homes for the sake of power by bulldozing their homes, kill for being in the wrong tribe, run the economy to ruin for their own benefit, have an 86 year old incumbent leader, blame every other country for their problems, try to buy arms instead of feeding starving people, have their so called president say "the gun is mightier than the pen" referring to what will happen if he loses. sorry i better stop as the list will go on and on and on. but until they do that then never compare these country's with Zimbabwe. Ill say it again, Mugabe is a senile old man and has done nothing but ruin Zimbabwe.

You really should learn more before you talk:

'Millions of U.S. citizens, including a disproportionate number of black voters, will be blocked from voting in the Nov. 2 presidential election because of legal barriers, faulty procedures or dirty tricks, according to civil rights and legal experts'.

To quote Brother Bob's spokeperon as he referred to the British at the end of the recent AU conference, "Go hang 1000 times".

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0922-03.htm

The old "its ok cos someone else is doing it" defence. What nonsense. So I could come over to wherever the hell you are, murder you, and say "its ok... Bush is killing people in Iraq" When are Mugabe defenders ever going to learn that 2 wrongs dont make a right?

Selector thinks that "so in other words your trying to say they don't, well your as thick as Mugabe himself. Next time either the US or UK governments Kill for voting for a different party , displace thousands of people from there homes for the sake of power by bulldozing their homes, kill for being in the wrong tribe, run the economy to ruin for their own benefit, have an 86 year old incumbent leader, blame every other country for their problems, try to buy arms instead of feeding starving people, have their so called president say "the gun is mightier than the pen" referring to what will happen if he loses. sorry i better stop as the list will go on and on and on. but until they do that then never compare these country's with Zimbabwe. Ill say it again, Mugabe is a senile old man and has done nothing but ruin Zimbabwe." is all ok because some americans cant vote either. Thats awesome Selector, shows how much you really care about the Zimbabwean people.

What is the UK and US national debt as a percentage of GDP selector? There you will get your true measure of debt now compare it to Zimbabwe and anywhere else you care to mention.

Glyph, the UK and US debts are growing so GDP isn't pertinent. The fact remains that they are borrowing from other countries to stay afloat.

Allow Zimbabwe even a fraction of the economic latitude afforded the UK and US and Zimbabwe's road to recovery will instantaneously be well founded and formed. Indeed, that economic latitutide is already promised by Zimbabwe's detractors on condition that Mugabe and Zanu-PF. The West already know, like most us, the possibilities and potential inherent in Zimbabwe - unfortunately what the West seeks is control and assurances of such control ahead of stopping its current, unrelenting efforts to bring the country to its knees.

Well after that quote you used from one of the illegitimate presidents spokesperson, we all know you are one of his brain dead cronies. how can you say the US & UK are after total control when your so called beloved leader has brought Zimbabwe to its knees in order for him to have total power and control. Don't even start to compare US or UK with Zimbabwe. oh by the way were you one of the morons who was ready to go to "war" if the ZANU PF party didn't win the sham of an election?

You can say "illegitimate president" as often as you like but Zimbabwe and other Africans have long ago learned from Western connivance and contrivance and used your own stratagem against you. What the president did was stay above the law and he and his party are consequently legitimate rulers. You may not like it but they are, without doubt, legal. Only the UK, the EU, Australia and the US and a handful of African countries at the behest of their Western paymasters have tried to call Zimbabwe's president, "illegitimate".

The rest of the world, including all the rest of Africa, Eastern Europe, Russia, Caribbean countries, South American countries, China, India, Pakistan and international organisations like SADC, the AU and the largest of them all, the UN have not called the president "illegitimate".

As for my, "so called beloved leader", as you put it...please keep your stale and outdated Western debating techniques to yourself; they have no place on a modern, online message board. Mugabe is not my beloved anything and I've never said anything of the sort - so try not to slip your lies in as is the constant wish of non-African Westerners when talking of African liberation.

The West has urged (read pressured) the ongoing mediator, Mbeki and he told you to take a hike - then you tried to discredit him. The West then turned to urging (read pressuring) SADC and they told you to take a hike - then you tried to discredit them. Then the West urged (read pressured) the AU, who also told you to take a hike - so you now claim the AU is a club for old Africans.

What you fail to realise is that African solidarity is the outcome of centuries of external abuse and that SADC and the AU do not exist to serve the West but to serve Africans. Africans are united, by consensus, in telling the West to get its butt out of Africa and out of African politics.

It is only a matter of time, now that the UN have refuse to call President Mugabe illegitimate, before you guys and other Western detractors start to try discredit the UN themselves as you do each time you can't get the UN to do your bidding.

Btw, Mugabe NEVER threatened "war" if Zanu-PF party didn't win. Stop with your lies and stop reading rubbish newspapers. Try to give a damn and try to find out some real facts off your own back.

Selector, It is always a pleasure to read your well-written, knowledgeable and intelligent posts. Please keep up the education process for some of these daft, propagandized posters, this service is sorely needed.

Right back at you, djoser.

Guidance, everytime.

Like Mugabe the dictator said selector. he is the President of Zimbabwe the same as Gordon Brown is the Prime Minister of Zimbabwe. so i other words He isn't and even he says it himself.

so he isn't your beloved leader but you defend him. Like was said in an earlier post. the run off wasn't held within 21 days. that is all the evidence you need for him not being a legitimate president. by the way i don't know if you have seen the video of the Police being told who to vote for. Ill give you one guess who it was too.

I think you'll find from a legal point of view, that the president is indeed illegitamate as the run off was not held within 21 days of the election as clearly stated in the Constitution, and therefore was unconstitutional. As for staying above the law, well, if you call mass beatings and murder of your own people staying above the law, then good for you.

I do believe the AU and SADC did say the elections werent free or fair also. And dont forget Mandelas comments on how bad Mugabes leadership is.

As for Mbeki, even his own country is against his mediation (read biased one sided mediation). Look at the ANC, look at the south african trade unions. Mbeki is own his own and burying himself in a hole.

And you want the west to butt out? They why complain about the "sanctions"? They are the west butting out!

And Mugabe did threaten war "http://allafrica.com/stories/200806161686.html" But let me guess. The source isnt good enough for you? You only accept the Herald right?

Selector, you really have no idea from inside your bubble do you.

awt, don't try legal with me - it forces me to search more and then slap you down.

According to you: "I think you'll find from a legal point of view, that the president is indeed illegitamate as the run off was not held within 21 days of the election as clearly stated in the Constitution, and therefore was unconstitutional".

According to the ZEC, the Constitution, the Electoral Act and a Network of NGOs: "ZEC has the power to extend the 21-day period in terms of section 192(4) and (5) of the Electoral Act. These provisions empower ZEC to make "such statutory instruments as it considers necessary or desirable to ensure that an election is properly and efficiently conducted and to deal with any matter or situation connected with, arising out of or resulting from the election...[including] altering any period specified in this Act within which anything connected with, arising out of or resulting from any election must be done". Any such statutory instrument must be approved by the Minister of Justice, Legal and Parliamentary Affairs and be gazetted. Section 192 does not in as many words set any limits to ZEC’s power to extend the 21-day period, but on general principle ZEC should use its power reasonably".

http://www.kubatana.net/html/archive/elec/080510veritas.asp?sector=ELEC

So the run offs were legitimate under the law and under the Consitution; Mugabe and Zanu-PF performed above the law ergo, his renewed presidency and his government is legitimate.

Then you say; "I do believe the AU and SADC did say the elections werent free or fair also. And dont forget Mandelas comments on how bad Mugabes leadership is".

Still none, including the UN have deemed the elections nor the results "illegitimate". As for Mandela he criticised "leadership", or the lack of it in Zimbabwe, taht includes Tsvangirai.

As for war, not a single word in the link you've provided quotes Mugabe as threatening war. You should read it.

*LMAO* @ "don't try legal with me". I guess it's up to me to GET LEGAL ON YO' A$$, I'm sorry I'm not fluent in, "street".

The Zimbabwe Electoral Act is in itself a flawed legal device, Part 24 section 158 states:

158. Regulatory powers of President The President may make such statutory instruments as he considers necessary or desirable to ensure that any election is properly and efficiently conducted and to deal with any matter or situation connected with, arising out of or resulting from the election. Statutory instruments may provide for: • suspending or amending any provision of this Act or any other law in so far as it applies to any election; • altering any period specified in this Act within which anything connected with, arising out of or resulting from any election must be done; • validating anything done in connection with, arising out of resulting from any election in contravention of any provision of this Act or any other law; • empowering any person to make orders or give directions in relation to any matter connected with, arising out of or resulting from any election; • penalties for contraventions of any such statutory instrument, not exceeding the maximum penalty referred to in s.155.

This section is the embodiment of the Latin maxim ULTRA VIRES! Basically the election is valid because the president(and I use the term very loosely) declares it valid.

I say again, there is no law in Zimbabwe other than that which is constructed as the executive sees fit.

Oh dear, Glyph!

First you suggest that the run-off are "against the law"/"illegal" and when I establish for you, for you were far too lazy or incompetent to do so yourself, that they were not against the law and, indeed, legal and legitimate, your best defence is, "the law itself is broken/flawed".

Laws are established and ammended in Parliarment by MPs from both parties. They can then be challenged in the High Court.

Not even the MDC have challenged the legitamicy of having the run-off in the High Court. Indeed, up until four days before the elections, the opposition MDC (in opposition because they are not leading) had spent three months actively taking part in the run-up to the run-offs including successfully petitioning the High Court (you know - the same court they could have used if they had issue with the run-offs themselves) to have occassional police bans on their "election rallies" lifted so they could take part in the elections.

But you, dear, Glyph, knower of all things African and authority on all things Zimbabwean, especially in law, know more than the ZEC, the government, the High Court and the opposition part. Yeah, right.

Ok I suppose I'll have to answer for you, the UK national debt is 40% of GDP, general government debt is £618.8 billion The defecit is under 3%, inflation is expected to rise to 4.25% by December 2008.

The United States National debt stands at $9.48 Trillion dollars which equates to 38% of GDP.

By contrast Zimbabwes national debt is $5.4billion and has not been serviced in 3 years, 211.9% of GDP! I wont mention inflation because it changes by the hour.

The economy has a defecit of over 33%, it is not possible for Zimbabwe to come back from this on its own let alone function as an unfragmented state for much longer. As I have stated previously the estimated time for Zimbabwe to economically recover is 23 years, this is with outside assistance not one of McGarbages mental miracles where everyone digs for victory in the field everyone is supposed to own.

When McGarbage stated that, "no country has ever gone bankrupt on its borrowings" he sent a loud and clear message to potential lenders and it seems they took this message on board.

An international arrest warrant must be issued out to arrest Mugabe whenever he steps out of Zimbabwe he must be charged with crimes against humanity Zimbabwe is not his inheritance or personal property Zimbabwe belongs to all Zimbabweans, as for you Thabo Mbeki are you scared of Mugabe?? what do you think?? why do you protect Mugabe?? think of the other Zimbabweans and not only Mugabe, South African struggle against aparthied was supported by Zimbabwean people.

After today’s news I would forget all about international arrest warrants. The African mass murderers club has just voted against them. It seems the African mass murderers club want to be able to kill their own people when ever they want without any worries about facing a court. It must be great to be able to change all the rules to suit yourself.

There's a really simple solution. The West could butt out and take a hike out of Africa and then could never be accussed of profiteering from African suffering.

Of course, that's not going to happen. The West thrives in every sense of the word on other people's suffering. As Mugabe's spokeperson put it so well, the lot of them should "Go hang 1000 times"!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7484165.stm

You want the west to "butt out and take a hike out of Africa" but yet you complain so bitterly when the west doesnt loan you money? If you dont need the west then why is Zimbabwe in such a mess?

I have NEVER complained that the West does not lend money to Africa or Zimbabwe. So your claim that I "complain bitterly" is completely untrue and I will thank you to keep your lies to yourself, particularly when talking about me.

You seem to be confusing the "International Monetary Fund" and the "World Bank" as synonymous with the West which, of course, is not the case - except perhaps in the conceited and avaricious minds of Westerners.

I apologise if I have made a mistake here, but I'm sure you have mentioned the evil illegal sanctions of the west, which are in effect the IMF and World Bank not lending money. Unless you are referring to the 140 mininsters that arent allowed to travel? Please explain why the IMF and WB are not synonymous with the west...

I'm wondering how the IMF and world bank cannot be synonymous with the west?

Who provides the bulk of the revolving loan funds? Africa?

OMG!! And there you have it. Two poster in a row, convinced that the IMF and World Bank are Western and not global organisations. Whilst it is true that the West exerts undue pressure on the two organisations, it does not follow that the West "is" the two organisations - far from it!

I am not suprised, the West also through similarly exerted pressures, likes to think it's the UN and tries to police the world.

Only Westerners could every dare to try to be so patronising and arragont as to assume that the hundreds of other, non-Western members of all three of the aforementioned global organisations are not particularly relevant.

Why is the President of the world bank traditionally from the US? Oh yes because they provide a disproportionate share of the capital.

"Who provides the bulk of the revolving loan funds? Africa"?

Careful now! Through loan and interest repayments the developing world contributes significantly to the IMF. As for the World Bank, much of the work its done since 2005 is managing debt that was meant to be written off by the G8 in there stated aim to 'Make Poverty History' - what they actually meant was they'd use the World Bank to tuck poverty away from constant public gaze and get their own exposure underwritten by the World Bank:

'The G8 has done no more than confirm the proposed deal by the G8 Finance Ministers, cancelling some of the debt owed by some countries. The principle of cancelling 100 per cent of the debt owed to multilateral institutions is a positive step, and a tribute to the unceasing efforts of Make Poverty History campaigners and campaigners worldwide; but this debt deal is a small step compared to the giant leap that was called for. While an important contribution, the G8 debt deal will provide less than $1 billion this year - the equivalent of no more than one dollar per person in the countries that are due to benefit. It is an inadequate response to the global debt crisis, which needs an estimated $10 billion a year of debt cancellation to eradicate extreme poverty. Major issues on debt remain unresolved - the damaging economic policy conditions attached to debt relief, the many indebted countries not on the list, debts not covered by the deal'.

http://www.makepovertyhistory.org/response.shtml

Why should the G8 have to give anything? Why should the debts be written off unless the west are allowed to help stopping the debts happening again, because of thieves like mugabe keep raping there countries! Would you keep feeding a dog that keeps biting you?Would you give you hard earned money to someone that abuses it over and over again? The world cares for the real people in Africa, that is why children and 100's of thousands of Australian children{and millions around the world}work hard to raise money for the poor of Africa.The leaders like mugabe go and steal it from these poor people and stop them getting it! mugabe is scum not to just his own people but all the good people around the world that donate there hard earned money to help the poor in Zimbabwe through Food and medical relief! And you want the good people to butt out of Africa when people like mugabe and his regime steal there money that was ment for his poor people?They butt in because they want the best for the real people of Zimbabwe! I for one do not care about you "Selector" as you have means, as you have a computer,i care about the ones that can not even eat or get medical treatment.Ever heard the saying charity begins at home? You should try and so should mugabe and his regime!

the west, the debt to the G8 is acknowledged, even by the lenders, as the result of extortionate interest rates and 'impossible' repayment terms. The West has spent literally decades unfairly profiting from and milking the developing world.

That is why the G8 agreed to waive much of the debts - particularly those that had been identified as patently unfair (some would say criminal) in the first place.

It's not the West's hard earned money that's being talked about, it's the developing world's hard earned money which has been paid to the West - way past the point where capital sums have been repaid numerous times and the entirety of the debt is still outstanding. There's nothing hard-earned about developing country debt for the West; for the West it's easy money.

Let's lend Zim some more money so Mugabe can fund another war in the DRC.

How could we possibly lend Zimbabwe any money? All our money has been spent on funding the US and Britain's unprovoked and illegal war in Iraq.

come on now. it wasnt unprovoked. Didnt you see the oil price rising?

- That was the episode that put the nail in Mugabe’s coffin. Kabila told the western countries to get off, canceling contracts with Western establishments and offering them to Chinese. Western government treated him like shit. Mugabe came in to help stop the carnage and total disintegration of RDC. Out of some Congolese ignorance, Kabila was assassinated thru, as we know now, western complicity. Since then, Mugabe has been the skunk at the dinner table dealing with western countries. That is a fact that no western country has the gut to openly discuss about the root cause of Zimbabwe total destruction. A true Zim historian will find much of the punishment and sort of embargoes and the like on Zimbabwe are the result of sticking up for a fellow African leader who dares to tell the West to get off.

Nice one, ecor.

Sekuru vaona fires. Bvuma kudyiwa, bvuma kuchembera, bvuma kusiya chigaro

Shame on both Mugabe and Mbeki. Both leaders have lose credibility in everyone's eyes. Mugabe ought to be ashamed on himself and should stop blaming others but take responsibility. Its not the british who are beating up and killing people in Zimbabwe. Grow up and stop that obsession with the west. We are fed up. Its so foolish to see an old man behaving like that. What kind of example is he giving to young upcoming leaders? I feel so sorry for him. Take a rest old man!

Emmauniq,krs120,G.Bush and G.Brown go hang yourselves as you think Mugabe is a looser .Do you think African leaders dont know why you guys are after Mugabe, you can all go to hell.And mind you people knows countries like America and Britian are enemies of progress to Africa as they always trigger political tension with the message of regime change.And you emmauniq and kjrs120 both of you guys are still stupid as you still want to be brainwash by white dictators.

Hey Frank, guess what - I don't THINK that Mugabe is a loser. I KNOW that he is a loser. Not only that, but also a cold blooded murderer. His coat of arms should depict satan. The blood of ALL the Zimbabweans he has drained will see to it that he hangs and you frank, if as his staunch supporter, you have had a hand in the abductions, amputations, burnings and killings of Zimbabweans, you deserve to swing along side by side. It looks like you don't even live in Zimbabwe - hence your "visits". You scuttle off like a rat to a country that belongs to someone else because there is NOTHING in your own country. Mugabe has filled his own pockets and seen to it that you have the highest inflation rate IN THE WORLD and your currency not worth wiping one's backside. The Western countries are NOT the leaders of Zimbabwe but Mugabe has once again made himself one. So He is the one to blame for all the destruction to the country and most important to human life in Zimbabwe. By the way , as long as Mugabe is your leader, you will continue scratching the ground for crumbs to eat. Enjoy!

As the world continues to debate on Zimbabwe and its future, We need to separate constructive critism from bitter hate and outright racism. For the purpose of information, I wish to take the reader on a history tour. At independence in 1980, an agreement was made between the liberation movement in Zimbabwe and the British in which they the British were to fund the sale of land to the Zimbabwe government from minority white settlers who occupied the best farmlands in Zimbabwe. These white settlers, mostly were British world war veterans who the British monarchy decided to reward with land in the then Rhodesia. (A British colony). After failed attempts to get the British to honour their side of the deal, Landless people of Zimbabwe lost patience with their government and started sporadic occupation of white owned farms.

From this point on, the state risked loosing control of the situation if they sat on the sidelines. The Zimbabwean government then took the initiative of seizing land from white farmers.

This is where the crux began. The British and other white imperialists saw this as a backlash. They couldn't imagine a African leader standing up against them. Out of being immature and outright cold hearted they decided to wage an economic war on Zimbabwe.

Their reasons for doing so range from human right abuse to Mugabe being a dictator who kills and maims his people. I wish not to deny or verify violence being metered own on Zimbabwe due to insufficient evidence.

The irony of the West being so worked up about Mugabe is nothing short of suprising. The same people who built their nations from the blood of Africans, the same people who are still keeping parts of human remains collected from Africans as trophies, claim now to be champions of freedom and democracy. This does not in anyway condone or justtify wrong doings by Africans. The West still have to come to terms with slavery and colonialism. the owe Africa centuries of wrong doing and outright barbarism.

Let Africa stand up and put its house in order without so much pressure and hate speech from all quarters. We can and will solve our problems the best way We know how.

True as you are saying. And the truth is only realised by the few. As Africans, UNITY is the last real weapon we can hope for. Truly. We will not go wrong on this one. Yes it might be difficult at first but it is worth the try and it will open up other benefits. We will share our resources just like we share our grief. Am not happy to see my fellow African, Tata Mugabe being trampled upon by these soul-less people.

I just wish we had more people like you on this web site. It is refreshing to see a need to tackle one issue at a time. Keep up the good work.

rsssop001 do not lose your cool over nonsense like your brother Robert "idiot" Mugabe. We may soon be commenting about you. South African are the most hypocritical lot that should just shut-up like Mbeki. Are you not ashamed to be proud of apatheid, appetite or what ever hell you wish to call it! "Mshini wami" is coming he will sort the hell out of you all!

We should all from now henceforth stop using cliches like saying there are people of "white color". Comrade Bob, you are the right person to correct this historical injustice of calling people white when they are actually PINK. You corrected one anomaly beautifully. You said of the so called "English Tea": 'Where in England can you find tea plantations?'Now ask this pertinent question, Where on earth can you find white people as we know the color white to exist? You never know;some bigotry might just be whittled down and the pinky's might just leave you alone!

Um the colour of skin is like the colour of a rainbow, there is no end to the different colours! Have you forgotten or do not know that every race colour and creed has the same DNA and all came from the African continent? This has always made me laugh that white and black racist do not even know they have the same DNA as each other and come from the same ancestors! To both types of racists idiots i say"hahahahahahaha".

Even though I am living in the US and hold an American passport, I am an African just like any other African. I am from Liberia. I follow news from Africa every day.

In the beginning, Robert Mugabe was a revolutionary, liberator of Zimbabwe. But long time ago, Mugabe has ceased being a liberator. He has become a murderous dictator. He is no different from Idi Amin, Bokassa, or Charles Taylor. He has become a disgrace to all African people's hope and aspiration for democracy.

It is even more hypocritical that his supporters are blaming the UK and US for the foolishness of Mugabe. Mugabe and his supporters must be ashame of themselves.

Konnlove, or whatever U call yoself, first of ol what do U know? Everything U claim to know U saw on cable news. In Africa U do not call an elder foolish, where did U learn yo manners? Get learned. If this is how U contribute meaningfully to the liberation of Zimbabwe then please dont. Its just not about being black, its understanding the dynamics of world politics. Africa has never been entirely free from western domination by might or bite. They slaved Us and to this day they still install their goons all over the world. The only difference is that Mugabe smelled the rat and woke up.

Xa407, konnlove was too kind calling Mugabe foolish. I will go further and call him a thief, a murderer, a useless old man clinging to power at the expense of killing so many Zimbabweans. Zimbabwe is today penniless - flat broke because Mugabe has looted the country and made himself so wealthy that the West has seen it fit to FREEZE all the stashes of cash and other assets until he starts to behave like a human being. Do not fool yourself. Zimbabwe has never been liberated. Mugabe has made sure to take away its freedom, make over 3 million of its people to flee to neighbouring countries, abduct, burn alive, cut off limbs and slaughter its people. Why should anyone respect a leader like that? Only the brainwashed fools who cannot see further than their noses can support such an animal. Life expectancy is only 34 years of age because of HIV AIDS. Why is Mugabe not providing the necessary medicines? Because he has squandered all the money on himself and there is nothing left for the people. What is the Zimbabwean dollar worth? Worthless. Zimbabwe is flat broke. With a clear thinking and stable leader who is truly dedicated to his country and all it holds,Zimbabwe would not be in the sorry state its in right now. Yes, blame the West, colonialism, Rhodesians, whites, imaginary sanctions, or even Martians for all I care, but know you are fooling no one. Mugabe is the present, he has been in charge for the last 28 years and Zimbabwe is now a heap of....dung to be polite.

“Mugabe has looted the country and made himself so wealthy that the West has seen it fit to FREEZE all the stashes of cash and other assets until he starts to behave like a human being” - That is one of the statements worth discussing. Last time I checked, when you help keep stolen money, you and the thief are both thieves. The money Mugabe stole is people’s money. In my mind he ought to cough it up and return it to Zimbabwe. Apparently, western banks and governments know it. These political bodies would “FREEZE all the stashes of cash and other assets until he starts to behave like a human being” We are reminded that Mugabe is a killer and a thief. Despite everything the west claims to to know about the cold blooded killer of his own people and the outcry from the international communities, it appears Mugabe is still their best friend behind close door. Why accept his stolen money in the first place? I am missing something here in the loop. Would someone enlighten me on this notion of double dealing with the west?

You were brainwashed and instigated to be against your brothers and sisters. Join Africa in the fight for Economic liberation. Change the colours of your mind and make peace with Africa. Mugabe is human (not the only one remember), he gets angry to remove what is in his way to liberate his people. Would't you??????? Tonight face reality, do not be a slave again. Think!!!!

Africabynature, you have described Mugabe very well - as a mad dog. Quote: "he gets angry to remove what is in his way to liberate his people". We have definitely seen Mugabe "removing" MDC supporters to let loose his ZANU-PF and indeed his own insatiable appetite to kill Zimbabweans who come in the way of his power hunger. MY brothers and sisters are those who are going through abductions, torture and every kind of strife.I have never been a slave and I abhor slavery of any kind. I abhor racism, oppression, segregation, and any other kind of supremacy. Every person deserves freedom and to be treated with dignity. When leaders the likes of Mugabe commit brutal acts on the people they are supposed to protect, they lose the privilege of being regarded as human beings. They are crap and deserve to go where all crap is disposed.

Kjrs120, Honestly, it is obvious that you never had any experience of a Liberation Movement. Where were you?? Eating sausages and those brainwashing propanganda gifts and subotaging the struggle of you fellows?? Or may be not born yet. Don't rewrite our history. wherever you are right now, the Wind of change will find you. Unity is obviously not in your favour.

To Africanbynature -Brilliant it was, that invisible little dig of yours. I just love it. Did I said you were good? Taking easy on him may be the best strategy to help his mind set. His comments tend to depict the mind of a reactionary. He may come around as time progresses. Who know?

-Is your intellectual prowess by birth or did you learn your style of addressing issues from books. What of kind of books or documents do you read? I would love to get my hand on anyone of them. Just one title for starters will do.

No no, Bob's comments were completely and entirely accurate. He IS the president of Zimbabwe as much as Gordon Brown is the president of Zimbabwe.....ie: not at all!!!

The on going crisis in Zimbabwe is one in which most of us are observers. This in no ways diminishes the plight of the people of Zimbabwe and my heart goes out to all of whom have put their life on the line for real democracy to take place. I congratulate His Excellency Ian Khama President of Botswana who took the correct stand in rejecting the recent sham election and not recognising Mugabe as the "president'. One point which is always over looked in almost every report that I have ever read is the psychological state of president Robert Gabriel Mugabe. His first wife Sally, who was Ghanaian by birth understood his very traumatic mood swings, and was able to control these to some degree. This is mentioned in many books over recent years and is paramount to understanding why he is still in power. A book by the British author Lord Dr. David Owen "The Hubris Syndrome' addresses the problem correctly. This is not a particularly African problem as the two people mentioned in Lord Owens Book are Bush and Blair. But the difference is that these people can be voted out of office. One of them already has been and the other will be. It is imperative that if progress is to be made on the Mugabe problem that psychologists are invited and welcomed to participate in this debate.

For those that want to blame Mugabe for everything, please read the following of what was done to undermine the Zimbabwean economy, just because an African country was being undermined, Mugabe intervened to stabilize an African Brother. The US and the G8 Countries which want to remain in control of Africa's resources introduced Sanctions since 1998, so sanctions have been on Zimbabwe ever since. Not one European or so called developed country can last a month under such conditions. White men wont admit, but Mugabe is a genius, Zimbabwe will not colapse, nor fail.

107th CONGRESS

1st Session

S. 494

To provide for a transition to democracy and to promote economic recovery in Zimbabwe.

IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES

March 8, 2001 Mr. FRIST (for himself and Mr. FEINGOLD) introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on Foreign Relations

--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----

A BILL To provide for a transition to democracy and to promote economic recovery in Zimbabwe.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `Zimbabwe Democracy and Economic Recovery Act of 2001'.

SEC. 2. STATEMENT OF POLICY.

It is the policy of the United States to support the people of Zimbabwe in their struggle to effect peaceful, democratic change, achieve broad-based and equitable economic growth, and restore the rule of law.

SEC. 3. DEFINITIONS.

In this Act:

(1) INTERNATIONAL FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS- The term `international financial institutions' means the multilateral development banks and the International Monetary Fund.

(2) MULTILATERAL DEVELOPMENT BANKS- The term `multilateral development banks' means the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development, the International Development Association, the International Finance Corporation, the Inter-American Development Bank, the Asian Development Bank, the Inter-American Investment Corporation, the African Development Bank, the African Development Fund, the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, and the Multilateral Investment Guaranty Agency.

SEC. 4. SUPPORT FOR DEMOCRATIC TRANSITION AND ECONOMIC RECOVERY.

(a) FINDINGS- Congress makes the following findings:

(1) Through economic mismanagement, undemocratic practices, and the costly deployment of troops to the Democratic Republic of the Congo, the Government of Zimbabwe has rendered itself ineligible to participate in International Bank for Reconstruction and Development and International Monetary Fund programs, which would otherwise be providing substantial resources to assist in the recovery and modernization of Zimbabwe's economy. The people of Zimbabwe have thus been denied the economic and democratic benefits envisioned by the donors to such programs, including the United States.

(2) In September 1999 the IMF suspended its support under a `Stand By Arrangement', approved the previous month, for economic adjustment and reform in Zimbabwe.

(3) In October 1999, the International Development Association (in this section referred to as the `IDA') suspended all structural adjustment loans, credits, and guarantees to the Government of Zimbabwe.

(4) In May 2000, the IDA suspended all other new lending to the Government of Zimbabwe.

(5) In September 2000, the IDA suspended disbursement of funds for ongoing projects under previously-approved loans, credits, and guarantees to the Government of Zimbabwe.

(b) SUPPORT FOR DEMOCRATIC TRANSITION AND ECONOMIC RECOVERY- Upon receipt by the appropriate congressional committees of a certification described in subsection (d), the following shall apply:

(1) DEBT RELIEF AND OTHER FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE- The Secretary of the Treasury shall--

(A) undertake a review of the feasibility of restructuring, rescheduling, or eliminating the sovereign debt of Zimbabwe held by any agency of the United States Government;

(B) direct the United States executive director of each multilateral development bank to propose that the bank should undertake a review of the feasibility of restructuring, rescheduling, or eliminating the sovereign debt of Zimbabwe held by that bank; and

(C) direct the United States executive director of each international financial institution to which the United States is a member to propose to undertake financial and technical support for Zimbabwe, especially support that is intended to promote Zimbabwe's economic recovery and development, the stabilization of the Zimbabwean dollar, and the viability of Zimbabwe's democratic institutions.

(2) ESTABLISHMENT OF A SOUTHERN AFRICA FINANCE CENTER- The President should direct the establishment of a Southern Africa Finance Center located in Zimbabwe that will include regional offices of the Overseas Private Investment Corporation, the Export-Import Bank of the United States, and the Trade and Development Agency for the purpose of facilitating the development of commercial projects in Zimbabwe and the southern Africa region.

(c) MULTILATERAL FINANCING RESTRICTION- Until the President makes the certification described in subsection (d), and except as may be required to meet basic human needs or for good governance, the Secretary of the Treasury shall instruct the United States executive director to each international financial institution to oppose and vote against--

(1) any extension by the respective institution of any loan, credit, or guarantee to the Government of Zimbabwe; or

(2) any cancellation or reduction of indebtedness owed by the Government of Zimbabwe to the United States or any international financial institution.

(d) PRESIDENTIAL CERTIFICATION THAT CERTAIN CONDITIONS ARE SATISFIED- A certification under this subsection is a certification transmitted to the appropriate congressional committees of a determination made by the President that the following conditions are satisfied:

(1) RESTORATION OF THE RULE OF LAW- The rule of law has been restored in Zimbabwe, including respect for ownership and title to property, freedom of speech and association, and an end to the lawlessness, violence, and intimidation sponsored, condoned, or tolerated by the Government of Zimbabwe, the ruling party, and their supporters or entities.

(2) ELECTION OR PRE-ELECTION CONDITIONS- Either of the following two conditions is satisfied:

(A) PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION- Zimbabwe has held a presidential election that is widely accepted as free and fair by independent international monitors, and the president-elect is free to assume the duties of the office.

(B) PRE-ELECTION CONDITIONS- In the event the certification is made before the presidential election takes place, the Government of Zimbabwe has sufficiently improved the pre-election environment to a degree consistent with accepted international standards for security and freedom of movement and association.

(3) COMMITMENT TO EQUITABLE, LEGAL, AND TRANSPARENT LAND REFORM- The Government of Zimbabwe has demonstrated a commitment to an equitable, legal, and transparent land reform program consistent with agreements reached at the International Donors' Conference on Land Reform and Resettlement in Zimbabwe held in Harare, Zimbabwe, in September 1998.

(4) FULFILLMENT OF AGREEMENT ENDING WAR IN DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF CONGO- The Government of Zimbabwe is making a good faith effort to fulfill the terms of the Lusaka, Zambia, agreement on ending the war in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

(5) MILITARY AND NATIONAL POLICE SUBORDINATE TO CIVILIAN GOVERNMENT- The Zimbabwean Armed Forces, the National Police of Zimbabwe, and other state security forces are responsible to and serve the elected civilian government.

(e) WAIVER- The President may waive the provisions of subsection (b) or subsection (c), if the President determines that it is in the national interest of the United States to do so.

SEC. 5. SUPPORT FOR DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS, THE FREE PRESS AND INDEPENDENT MEDIA, AND THE RULE OF LAW.

(a) IN GENERAL- The President is authorized to provide assistance under part I and chapter 4 of part II of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 to--

(1) support an independent and free press and electronic media in Zimbabwe;

(2) support equitable, legal, and transparent mechanisms of land reform in Zimbabwe, including the payment of costs related to the acquisition of land and the resettlement of individuals, consistent with the International Donors' Conference on Land Reform and Resettlement in Zimbabwe held in Harare, Zimbabwe, in September 1998, or any subsequent agreement relating thereto; and

(3) for democracy and governance programs in Zimbabwe.

(b) FUNDING- Of the funds made available to carry out part I and chapter 4 of part II of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 for fiscal year 2002--

(1) not less than $20,000,000 is authorized to be available to provide the assistance described in subsection (a)(2); and

(2) not less than $6,000,000 is authorized to be available to provide the assistance described in subsection (a)(3).

(c) SUPERSEDES OTHER LAWS- The authority in this section supersedes any other provision of law.

SEC. 6. SENSE OF CONGRESS ON THE ACTIONS TO BE TAKEN AGAINST INDIVIDUALS RESPONSIBLE FOR VIOLENCE AND THE BREAKDOWN OF THE RULE OF LAW IN ZIMBABWE.

It is the sense of Congress that the President should begin immediate consultation with the governments of European Union member states, Canada, and other appropriate foreign countries on ways in which to--

(1) identify and share information regarding individuals responsible for the deliberate breakdown of the rule of law, politically motivated violence, and intimidation in Zimbabwe;

(2) identify assets of those individuals held outside Zimbabwe;

(3) implement travel and economic sanctions against those individuals and their associates and families; and

(4) provide for the eventual removal or amendment of those sanctions. END

What rubbish are they talking about when they want to introduce sanctions, maybe they forgot Zimbabwe is functioning with those sanctions. No-one has died and no-one is starving, except the ones who the western media continue to talk about but have not shown us the pictures.

Amazing, no one has dies and nobody is starving? Even Zanu has admitted people have died. What are Oxfam, WFP, and numerous others doing feeding all these Zimbabweans that have full bellies. Why are people flocking to foreign embassies, why are opositon politicians being abducted and why are the Zanu people jailed for election violence being released from jail.You obviously don't read the papers or research the internet. The Herald is not the only paper to read, try the other few million newspapers from all over the world, even China. Dont be so blinkered and try to think of the suffering in Zimbabwe not just for some old doddery fool and his bunch of thieves.

Indie,mindpower and cronies - You guys just hate the fact that i am a black Zimbabwean enjoying New Zealand. I've told you before and i will tell you again - All people from the third world living or working in the western world MUST ENJOY all the fruits - it is our time to take back! There never seems to be an issue when a westerner wants to live in the third world is there? We are proud enough to do an honest days work in the west but you and your kind live in the third world to expliot!

face it Kube, you're only in New Zealand because you are too scared to live in Zimbabwe.

Talk is CHEAP! Where are the photo's of these 'starving' Zimbabweans? And how can the mdc get beaten and even killed if they are the large majority in the country. Now don't say Zanu pf youths have guns because that is not true.

MDC supporters do not live all grouped up in one compound. they live in single homes just like anyone else. Large groups of Zanu-Pf thugs descend on them at night armed with machetes, shamboks and knobkerries family by family. What chance would YOU stand Kubatana if somewhere in the village hoards of savage thugs suddenly descended on your family? You talk all smug because the West is offering you a lifestyle your country cannot. Big man - thanks to the West. You hypocrite.

kjrs, what is stopping this mdc 'majority' from forming groups and also beating these so called Zanu pf thugs? I guess you are going to say that the mdc are all God-fearing peaceful people and will not resort to that. It should be VERY EASY for the mdc 'majority' to control a minority Zanu pf who don't even have guns! If you really want something you should fight for it! You see like i said many times before your guy's talk just does NOT MAKE SENSE!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4352182364684050632&pr=goog-sl

Just for you Kube. Still cowarding in NZ?

Talk is cheap? Well try this on for size Kube... http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4352182364684050632&pr=goog-sl What say you now?

Indie, i have told you before - i should not have to search the internet for pictures of these so called 'starving Zimbabweans'. It should be splashed all over BBC and CNN. We have seen recent pictures/film footage of the elections and 'Zanu pf youth' chasing down a 'mdc supporter. Where are these 'starving millions'? You just can't give people a logical answer. It's just lies,lies and more lies.

You must be blind and illiterate not to realise what is happening in Zimbabwe. I feel sorry for you, stay in New Zealand, Zimbabwe does not need any more fools.I predict in six months time Mugabe will be gone and good riddance. May the long suffering peoples of Zimbabwe rejoice once he has gone and they will then be able to rebuild the great country that is was. Zimbabwe, like the rest of the world, is made up of a diverse population that will act cohesivly to rebuild, Black, White, Brown and Yellow, once the racist regime of Mugabe has gone peace will eventually prevail. Those that have commited the crimes will be punished, regardless of what colour they are.

notha4ever, if I were a woman I'd want to have your babies right now! An 'excellent' post.

"White men wont admit, but Mugabe is a genius, Zimbabwe will not colapse, nor fail". Mugabe has out-manoeuvred the lot of them despite there concerted, unrelenting and self-interested efforts to bring him down.

"What rubbish are they talking about when they want to introduce sanctions, maybe they forgot Zimbabwe is functioning with those sanctions. No-one has died and no-one is starving, except the ones who the western media continue to talk about but have not shown us the pictures". - These are the FACTS of the matter.

I will keep repeating the poetic, profound and judicious words of Mugabe's spokesperson directed at the UK at the end of the last AU conference at which the consensus was that Mugabe and Zanu-PF are the legitimate rulers of independent and brave Zimbabwe, "Go hang one thousand times".

You must know this is not correct as the life cycle of a Zimbabwe person in less than 40 years!FACT and for most of the world it is much longer! Fact, Zimbabwe is in major trouble of the economy busting in the next few months, you can not survive at 2 million percent inflation for long. Fact, if mugabe was a genius Zimbabwe would be in a much better position and he would not have to resort violence! Fact, this is the worst state Zimbabwe has evry in its history been in! Fact, the world never lets a leader of this age rule its country because they have lost there edge a long time ago! Fact,without mugabe at present the people of Zimbabwe would be a mile in front of what they are! Fact,Mugabe earns and steals more than any democratic leader in the world in one of the worst economies and poorest countries in the world! Fact, the world wants to help Zimbabwe not take it over!

Zimbabwe's life expectancy, within literally a year or two, mirrors neighbouring South Africa's. One country has suffered from international sanctions and hyper-inflation, the other has enjoyed international co-operation and a booming economy. One country sees land being taken from minority white and given to majority blacks, the other has seen no land taken from minority whites and the rich/poor divide wide between land-owning whites and abjectly poor blacks widen since the end of aparthied. One country makes daily international news, the other doesn't (execpt in realtion to its neighbour).

Actually, I know this 'is' correct.

Selector. Have a look at his. Great President Mugabe. Looking after his people. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4352182364684050632&pr=goog-sl

awt, post a video with some evidence of something in it and, better still, post one with a balanced presentations of the goings ons instead of one so obviously biased.

It is very telling that you omitted the preamble to the Zimbabwe Democratic & Economic Recovery Act which was enacted in December 2001. Please refer to the dates at which the other financial institutions cut off Robber McGarbages petty cash supply, you will note that they did so before ZiDERA.

Why did the US enact ZiDERA? I suggest that would be the reason you neglected to cut and paste the preamble of the Act: Let me help you with that:

"Through economic mismanagement, undemocratic practices, and the costly deployment of troops to the Democratic Republic of the Congo, the Government of Zimbabwe has rendered itself ineligible to participate in International Bank for Reconstruction and Development and International Monetary Fund programs, which would otherwise be providing substantial resources to assist in the recovery and modernization of Zimbabwe’s economy. The people of Zimbabwe have thus been denied the economic and democratic benefits envisioned by the donors to such programs, including the United States".

So the US enacted ZiDERA to stop economic mismanagement, encourage a return to democracy and to stop a ruinous war in the DRC. Those evil b457ard5.

COMMENT ABOUT LOOTING tO YOU ALL: One of our intellectuals has a passage in his post that reads:

“Mugabe has looted the country and made himself so wealthy that the West has seen it fit to FREEZE all the stashes of cash and other assets until he starts to behave like a human being”

- That is one of the statements worth discussing. Last time I checked, when you help someone keep stolen money, you and the thief are both thieves. The money Mugabe stole is people’s money. In my mind he ought to cough it up and return it to Zimbabwe. Apparently, western banks and governments know it. These political bodies would “FREEZE all the stashes of cash and other assets until he starts to behave like a human being”

We are reminded that Mugabe is a killer and a thief. Despite everything the west claims to know about this cold blooded killer of his own people and the outcry from the international communities, it appears Mugabe is still their best friend behind close doors. Why accept his stolen money in the first place? I am missing something here in the loop. Would someone enlighten me on this notion of western double dealing?

You will find they will dangle the money like a carrot to mugabe and his regime so they leave Zimbabwe etc.I can only imagine they will give them back some and then give the rest back to Zimbabwe.

Freezing the money is not stealing it!So if you believe the money is the Zimbabwe people's then you agree mugabe and regime stole it as its in there private bank accounts! I would like to see that money used to by food and medical relief and have it air dropped etc in Zimbabwe's hardest hit area's!

To “the west “ - Thank you for the input. “Freezing the money is not stealing it” - You missed the point. The focus is not on FREEZING, but rather on STEALING. The money is accused of stealing did not happen overnight. It is through the years in power. Did Mugabe steal? If that is true, then how did he do it? Which outside establishments mediate the deal? Those are the questions to ponder.

- “ So if you believe the money is the Zimbabwe people's then you agree mugabe and regime stole it as its in there private bank accounts!”

- We should ask Mr. “kjrs120” to answer this assertion. I am sure he will be kind enough to enlighten us. Rather than speaking for him I will offer a similar known fact. Western banks do ha a history of stealing or looting African countries through their slave managers known as African despots. The case of the rep of the Congo under Mobutu. After looting, destroying his country and making his people beggars, he was forced to go into exile. Kabila, the father, as president went to the European capitals to ask for the return of the money for the development of the country’s infrastructure. No western bank or government listened to him. He left empty handed. Nearly ten years later with Kabila, the son, this is what we hear.

- [ Mobutu was president of Zaire (now the Democratic Republic of the Congo) for 32 years (1965-1997). When the sum in what appeared as only Mobutu's Swiss piggybank came up at a press conference concluding Calmy-Rey's visit, Kabila could hardly conceal his disappointment. "Unfortunately it is only eight million Swiss francs, not the tens of billions we expected." ]

- SOURCE: “No Takers for Ex-Dictator's Money” - / Inter Press Service (Johannesburg);/NEWS / 24 June 2008 / Posted to the web 24 June 2008/ By Mattias Creffier/ Brussels/ Copyright © 2008 Inter Press Service

To “the west “ - Thank you for the input. “Freezing the money is not stealing it” - You missed the point. The focus is not on FREEZING, but rather on STEALING. The money is accused of stealing did not happen overnight. It is through the years in power. Did Mugabe steal? If that is true, then how did he do it? Which outside establishments mediate the deal? Those are the questions to ponder.

- “ So if you believe the money is the Zimbabwe people's then you agree mugabe and regime stole it as its in there private bank accounts!”

- We should ask Mr. “kjrs120” to answer this assertion. I am sure he will be kind enough to enlighten us. Rather than speaking for him I will offer a similar known fact. Western banks do ha a history of stealing or looting African countries through their slave managers known as African despots. The case of the rep of the Congo under Mobutu. After looting, destroying his country and making his people beggars, he was forced to go into exile. Kabila, the father, as president went to the European capitals to ask for the return of the money for the development of the country’s infrastructure. No western bank or government listened to him. He left empty handed. Nearly ten years later with Kabila, the son, this is what we hear.

- [ Mobutu was president of Zaire (now the Democratic Republic of the Congo) for 32 years (1965-1997). When the sum in what appeared as only Mobutu's Swiss piggybank came up at a press conference concluding Calmy-Rey's visit, Kabila could hardly conceal his disappointment. "Unfortunately it is only eight million Swiss francs, not the tens of billions we expected." ]

- SOURCE: “No Takers for Ex-Dictator's Money” - / Inter Press Service (Johannesburg);/NEWS / 24 June 2008 / Posted to the web 24 June 2008/ By Mattias Creffier/ Brussels/ Copyright © 2008 Inter Press Service

If you want to know how Mugabe stole the money or what establishment is involved, Zimbabwe will have to demand the money back through the courts. The demand will have to be made by the next ruling president on behalf of the Zimbabwean people. In Zambia, when Frederick Chiluba became president, he took Kenneth Kaunda to court for the billions of dollars Kaunda was accused of having stolen but was somehow unsuccessful. When Mwanawasa became president, he took Chiluba to court also for stealing money from the Zambian people and HE was successful as Chiluba was found guilty as charged. It will all come to light once Mugabe leaves office. Before then Zimbabwe will not know his channels as he is not stupid to allow that to happen. After all who would ever investigate themselves?

To kjrs120 --“Zimbabwe will have to demand the money back through the courts.”

--Very close but no cigar! Currently, it sounds like, Mugabe is not a thief. It has to be proven by the courts. That throws another wrinkle in the loop. Whose courts? Western? Zimbabweans? Would that be the reason why western banks keep accepting whatever assets they are holding in their coffers because it is not stolen until Zimbabwe courts say it is stolen!

I wonder: What laws are on the books in the west that the new Zimbabwe leader will have to introduce his own interpretation to prove Mugabe a thief? Is it not fair to assume that similar laws are already in existence in the West to prove that Mugabe is a thief? After all, the money is in the West. What not use their courts. Got help us if we don’t even know that western banks already have those universal laws about ownership as we speak. One would suggest the following. One must forcefully assert that, according to western business transaction practices, Mugabe is a thief! Pull those laws out and have western banks chew on any of them. Otherwise they are accomplice to the process of stealing. That way we can also see how Westerns are playing the money game with ulterior motives. “The demand will have to be made by the next ruling president on behalf of the Zimbabwean people.”

--- It apparently worked in Zambia. It did not work for RDC between Mobutu and Kabila. Even with kabila, the son, it is not working. Western banks can only talk about Mobutu piggy bank account. That is shameful. It did not work in the Rep of Central Africa with Bokassa. It did not work in the Philippines with Marco. Examples of this kind are many such and the list is endless. The pattern is consistent in all third world countries.

Of course 'freezing' assets is theft from Zimbabwe by the governments of the UK and other EU countries, Australia and the US. The assets are only from from Zimbabwe but are available for utilisation and utilised by the freezing parties and their bankers.

To selector:

-- Get it done! Nice going. Let us exhaust all points possible while on the subject. I like it. Nice going. Keep up the good. I think if we focus on issues we will get somewhere in the process. I appreciate your answer.

Selector there are strict laws which govern frozen assets. The frozen assets remain frozen until they meet their purpose. Eventually, either they are released to the owner or if found guilty returned to the country. The countries who freeze may NEVER put those assets to their own use because it is a major crime to do so. They would be stealing too. It is best left to international courts as they will be unbiased and have nothing to gain except perhaps a job well done. Local judges would be too prone to corruption. One thing for sure, the ruling leader would have to fight very hard to get that money and other assets back in the country where they belong.

Glyph or anyone, could you perhaps shed better light on the handling of frozen assets by international countries. Thanks.

Frozen accounts can not be used by anyone hence why no interest is payed on them because they are not used to make money etc.

Mugabe and regime did steal this money and whether the Zimbabwe court found them innocent of it or not i would imagine it would be impossibles for any of them to explain properly, how public servants attained so much money legitimately or fairly. I do not believe for a second that the Zimbabwe courts are fair and impartial and follow the letter of there law.The judges would have a death wish if they ever went against mugabe in the former or current situation in Zimbabwe.

"Frozen accounts can not be used by anyone hence why no interest is payed on them because they are not used to make money etc"

LOL!! Please, these discussion can be grown up or childish. Personally, I prefer grown up. Interest on frozen accounts is not paid to the account holder. However, banks are free to do whatever they wish with the capital sum so long as those sum are available when called upon by the court or authority that froze the account in the first place or when the account is unfrozen.

To suppose or suggest that frozen account funds are not utilised by the banks that hold those accounts (all Western banks in Zimbabwe's case of frozen accounts) is akin to suggesting that banks do not utilise positive funds in everyday current accounts, in everyday savings accounts, or indeed that the international banking system doesn't fully utilise and interchange/sell huge debt accounts - the US sub-prime mortgage debacle proves otherwise.

I repeat, frozen accounts are ONLY frozen to the account holder. Indeed to take things to another level, even after court proceedings are decided and funds are confiscated, the step after account freezing, funds are then seized by the freezing authority. There's no mystical holding station for funds from frozen accounts where the various billions of dollars are held, on trust by noble bankers and trustees. International banking and finance is much more ruthless, and indeed practical, than you seem to imagine.

As for your, "I do not believe for a second that the Zimbabwe courts are fair and impartial and follow the letter of there law.The judges would have a death wish if they ever went against mugabe in the former or current situation in Zimbabwe". You are a dreamer with a head full of imaginings, it seem. Allow me to refer you to my earlier answer on the BBC thread who try to make aspertions about the independence of the independent Zimbabwe judiciary:

"...as for the MDC using legal channels; the Zimbabwe High Court backed them in having Biti brought to court and subsequently released on bail and the High Court also backed the MDC in getting a police ban on an MDC rally overturned.

It's patently childish of you as well as untrue to say, "Make a ruling Mugabe doesn't like and you'll find yourself having a mysterious fatal accident". High Court judges manage, just fine, to rule against the government with impunity".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7441971.stm

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/13/africa/14zimbabwe.php

Hello there kjrs120:

It's so good to be back *lol*

The procedure for sequestrating assets is broadly the same mechanism used in civil procedure i.e. the Mereva Injunction, so called because of the seminal case Mareva Compania Naviera SA v International BulkcarriersSA [1975] 2 Lloyd's Rep 509. These orders are generally accompanied by an Anton Piller Order which banks fear the most as it compels them to open their books to investigators. The Anton Piller order is generally enough to scare a bank into compliance.

These orders are not multi jurisdictional usually they were a commonwealth device set up for eventualities like McGarbage and the rest of the African Dictators Club. They have enjoyed international acceptance though and they have resulted in full and partial recovery of misappropriated funds in the Vladimiro Montesinos and the Abacha and Marcos cases.

They are now treated as reciprocal; a State will honour these orders even when it comes from outside its jurisdiction because the day may come when it wants to present an Injunction of its own to the State which is currently seeking its assistance.

As no one has in fact been convicted of a crime or malfeasance the money does indeed appear on the capital of the bank in question, however heavy penalties as large as $30million per transaction can be expected if any of the frozen money moves. Lawyers’ fees can be extracted from the frozen assets but the claimant state is indemnified against those losses, if the money is found to be legitimate then the assets and earned interest are returned if the money is illegitimate the money minus attorney fees is returned to the state from which it was misappropriated, where there is a fear that the money is merely being returned to be stolen again it is repaid in periodic repayments via the Bank for International Settlements.

Many thanks Glyph, I knew you would bail me out.

Mr. kjrs120: - ” the ruling leader would have to fight very hard to get that money and other assets back in the country where they belong.” - “fight very hard” Damn! Just when one is getting the feeling that one is getting the grip on this madness of stolen money and assets, one gets another one coming fast and hard. This time, our new leader, when we manage to have one, will have to fight hard to secure the funds that would put the country back on the right track. Zims, can we learn something here? RDC folks have been “fighting very hard” for their money and assets and have seen nothing coming their way to salvage their economic strangulation. Why should we have to kid ourselves that western institutions will treat us differently? These monies and assets that Mr. “kjrs120” is talking about, are known to have been stolen. Hands down! Yet the next leader for the Zims “would have to fight”. Fight for what? Have they no shame? Fight for something due us? Zims need these monies and PRONTO! Hello!!!! These monies belong to Zimbabweans! Westerners know or should it and all Zims must know it.

- The ice is breaking up. It sounds like these western banking institutions are blood suckers. Leaders and personalities that run them are also thieves. Theses are the people who weigh in for the selection of our own Zim leaders and African leaders by extension? Why play us SMALL on stolen property when the rightful owner is available?

- At what point must we tell them to go fly a kite? It sounds like any of us here know nothing about the magnitude of the crime and blood they spill with the stroke of their pens. The more we applied universal lenses on these institutions, their leaders and their intentions, the more we find that their platitudes of fighting for Africans well-being are a fraud. I, for one, hate it when Western personalities play us small. They truly have perfidious lips! - A case to the hour: Currently, RDC leaders have been fighting for more than 8 years and still have not seen a dime of the monies and assets due Congolese people. They are left to rot. It would appear, from western attitudes and double dealing, Congolese are deliberately left to survive eating their own shit. How cruel! History should put these institutions and their money laundering leaders on trial and hang them in a bright sunlight. Mr. “Glyph” you have the podium. Talk to us. Lead us to focus a little more. We may learn something here.

Ecor, by saying the ruling leader would have to fight very hard for the frozen assets, I did not mean that the fight would be against the courts. The fight would be between the Zimbabwean people lead by the ruling leader, and Mugabe's legal representatives. Remember that will be the fight of Mugabe's life so he will also hire the best attorney defense team that money can get.

Mr. kjr120: -----Thanks you for your contribution. I would like to push the discussion further. That is; with your guidance on this issue, we would be late at it and spinning the wheels in a neutral position. Big time! The jury is out!!!!! It has been concluded that the money is a stolen property. Believing as we do in the Western laws, it is a no “brainer” to figure this thing out. If you truly believe Mugabe, his cronies and his attorneys have a modicum of a fighting chance, then Mugabe did not steal the money. Contrary to that, Western Laws are fraudulent business practices accepting stolen money and creating a stolen property refuge to rob helpless victims, be they Africans, or any one else around the world. We ought to know. Which CLAUSE in the western LAWS PROTECTS A THIEF AND AWARDS KNOWN STOLEN PROPERTY TO THE THIEF? Any Lawyer in the house? Please help!

----- If logic is of any use to us, Mugabe does not have a fighting chance. He stole the money and went to hide it in western banks. The problem sounds deeper since dirty money tainted with blood find a refuge in western banks. And a negligible few people know about it. That is where the ROOT CAUSE of our demise is hatched! Instead of wasting our time spitting in Mugabe’s face, we should use that quality time learning about these laws that shamelessly make Mugabe a bona fide western customer with his stolen money. Would our lawyers on this web site research this and give us some smatterings on how to proceed? How can we hold Western banking institutions and Mugabe accountable if we don’t even know the basic premise under which thieves are welcomed customers in western banks?

If by theft you mean unjust enrichment then the doctrine of equity aims to place the parties into the same position as they were in before the event which caused the unjust enrichment.

Robber McGarbage had a fiduciary duty to the people of Zimbabwe in that he was a custodian of their economy, a role which he himself established when he vacated the role of Prime Minister only to become a Head of State with executive powers. The Presidential oath of office is in effect a contract between the people of Zimbabwe and the person swearing the oath; once again I fall short of using the name McGarbage and the word, "President" in the same sentence.

A fiduciary may not profit from their position, McGarbages undeclared income other than his salary is without doubt a, "benefit" he accrued as a result of that position.

The Sovereign Nation of Zimbabwe in a case of this kind would be the Principle and upon finding the frozen assets to be lawfully the property of the principle a court would consider those frozen funds, any bribes paid to those persons or other secret payments to be a, "Constructive Trust" for the Principle.

McGarbage and his goons have little chance in appealing to a court on this basis as anyone claiming equity, "must approach with clean hands". Their hands are FILTHY!

That would form the basis of my case and how I would proceed but then again I’m a white British Caucasian, please feel free to consult other learn'ed counsel ;o)

The banking sector is hated by all countries not just in Africa!I do not think you will find a worker in any coutry that does not hate banks! Hating banks is not what is being talked about!

Mr. West: ----- You raise an interesting point. “HATE”. Please don’t leave us hanging. Share your thought with us on “HATE”. Why “The banking sector is hated by all countries”. What do they practice to be hated? We need to know the source of this hate you are talking about. It is certainly an interesting wrinkle to know more about. Please contribute and educate us on this one. For our plight, discuss the international banking system since that is how we fit in this banking ploy thing. We should not expect western banking institutions and their spokespeople to be honest brokers especially if they are also hated in their home countries. Am I right ?

Simple, they charge massive fee's and raise interest rates above the reserve bank interest rate. They make to large a profit even in bad economic times and they now make discussions on individuals based on a computer model having taken away manager assessment of individual loans etc. "Hate", you are using hate in a definitive form not its slang form like i am doing.Hard to know the way its used without conveying it with body language to define the difference. examples- "i hate someone" etc "i hate the fact that oranges have seeds"etc

Different meanings!

Ecor, we should not worry too much about the integrity of the international banks because they have so many people world wide depositing billions of dollars into their banks. There is no way they can know which ones of their depositors are corrupt and depositing stolen money. The banks only become aware of the fact after investigations are made and the depositors are found guilty of theft.The banks then comply with whatever judgment is made by the courts. So it is vital that what ever leader is trying to recover the money on behalf of their country, also hire the best investigators and lawyers possible because as I said, the person being investigated will also hire the best lawyers they can find.

Vice President Rupiah Banda of Zambia announced this morning that president Mwanawasa remains in the intensive care unit of the Percy military hospital in Paris where the president underwent a minor operation to improve his breathing. To me it sounds like he has had a tracheotomy which is an opening made directly into the windpipe to help with his breathing and where if necessary he can be easily hooked up into a breathing machine. As there are no reports of his conscious levels it is difficult to know exactly how he is doing. Zambian and all people must keep praying for his recovery and not lose heart.

Please let us stay focus. All of us wish him well. But they are important learning business we are after. Talking about all issues at the same time serve one purpose. To avoid discussions that would help our mind to think of the solution to our problems in African. we can't afford that right now. Is that ok with you? I certainly hope so. LET US STAY FOCUS.

Ecor there are many Zambians on these sites who are right now unable to focus because they are troubled about their leader. Mr Mwanawasa is one of the main key players in African affairs and to have him ill at this time should be worrisome to you too. To brush it off just because you want to "stay in focus" about those frozen assets is being very insensitive to the Zambians.

I have little desire to continue this health tread. We are all different and come to this site with different need. Many of us come here to get some steam off, other come to learn and so I will not take the bait. If discussing the health issue is what is concurrently appealing to you, by all mean run with it.

I was just suggesting that biting more than we can chew will not get us very far. Personally I am more interested in learning to advance our cause. That does not mean I don’t feel the pain for the sick or the shut ins.

I just think that discussing an issue in depth is more informative than talking multiple issues.

To kjrs120----- “we should not worry too much about the integrity of the international banks because they have so many people world wide depositing billions of dollars into their banks.”

----- OMG!!! Are you serious? I beg to differ. Leave that thinking here on this post. Don’t take that thinking outside. It would make us look really bad. Use your head. Mr. Glyph statement is slowly shredding your argument to pieces. At the end of the day, he making your assertion sink like a rock in deep water. Now you are digging a far deeper or colossal intellectual hole. The only reason I would give you a modicum of a doubt would be if you have never had a bank account in your life. If however you have had a bank account in your life, then your understanding of the banking system needs a lot of work. It is grossly misguided. Your reasoning is so misguided that you ought to take it upon yourself to learn about it fast. Don’t expect the world bodies to teach you this. No financier would offer to teach you this either. Westerners may opt to discount it for the mere fact that they benefit from financial extortion going on around the world. But you and I don’t have that luxury! Self study is key. Trust me on this one!

The world functions on the basis of Numbers and letters. NOTHING MORE AND NOTHING LESS. Each bank in our capitalistic system is represented through a number conventionally referred to as CODE. Did you know that? Even communist countries must have a numbers to communicate with capitalistic countries.

Listen to the following between the two of us. Study the history of the banking system to get a better vision of how this thing work. A bank is just a house that deals in numbers. London and Washington write the rules that govern transactions. They set up guidelines, fees, penalties, etc. It is not the amount of money that counts. It is the rules under which the money is deposited. The rules apply to everyone or ought to apply to everyone. You need to understand that there are THREE BANKS IN THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD. THOSE BANKS ARE: THE BANK OF ENGLAND, based in England. THE FEDERAL RESERVE BANK based in Washington. THE BANK OF INTERNATIONAL SETTLEMENTS(BIS) also based in Washington. THESE INSTITUTIONS ARE PRIVATELY OWN! Just in case you are not paying attention, I repeat it again. THESE INSTITUTIONS ARE PRIVATELY OWN! World governments are clients to these institutions. These three banks executive boards convene periodically to concoct new ideas to govern or run the world and to offer needed recommendations for BIS to write Laws and rules that govern financial transactions. These rules trickle down and morph into subset rules to our central bank in Harare thru IMF, the world Bank.

----- “ There is no way they can know which ones of their depositors are corrupt and depositing stolen money.” ------ God help us if this is how most us, Africans, think about world financial transactions. You are on your own brother. This is a sinking ship you are peddling. I will not even attempt to hitch a ride on the one for a million years.

Ecor, I have not just stepped off the boat. I am aware of the international banks you spoke of and silly me for even raising the question of Mugabe's frozen assets. I should have left you in the dark. Your put down of me - I quote, "Mr Glyph's statement is slowly shredding your argument to pieces" etc, really does not phase me at all. In fact it was I who called upon Glyph because he is very knowledgeable, or anyone else out there who could shed some light into the question of recovering frozen assets. I do not recall ever saying I an an expert. Like you I am just a lay person trying to figure out this topic as best as I can understand it. When I spoke about the integrity of these banks I meant just that because they too have their reputations to uphold and if blatantly fraudulent or corrupt, they would not stay in business and besides, the fines that they would incur would not be worth their while. Just check Glyph's figure per transaction for moving any frozen assets. I also said that frozen assets remain so until the courts make a ruling, but what I did not know was that if any of that money was paid out as a bribe that amount still belonged to the country as a "constructive Trust". It is the courts that conduct the proceedings and it is the courts that make the final ruling and not the banks. Remember it will be your side trying to prove the other of wrong doing, so you have better have the best possible representation on your side. Good luck. Glyph, thanks counselor.

You have a far thicker skin than what you are trying to convey. I could have called you something worse such as pro mugabe. Helpless victims need you to keep pushing forward. Comments from a person like me should not bruise you to that extend. I know the value of asking a question or raising an issue. Furthermore, we all need the energy you are putting in this thing. And I thank you for that.

While I understand your reasoning when it comes to transparent banking I'm not sure how you would like the international institutions to proceed when it comes to new accounts and depositors.

The banking system must have a certain degree of confidentiality. One pales at the thought of being asked by the bank where every penny I deposit has come from. By your rationale the banks would have to ask every customer to sign an affidavit to confirm that all of their monies are not ill gotten gains.

In an age where billions of transactions occur electronically everyday it would not be practical to request a signed and witnessed statement regarding the last transaction out of Hong Kong at the end of the days trading. Financial markets move very rapidly and using your premise that money should not move until its source can be verified would bring the world money markets to a grinding halt.

You are correct there have been banking disasters due to lack of scrutiny such as Bearings and BCCI; but that was due to lack of internal supervision. It is estimated that today it takes about 5 transactions of a suspicious type to prompt an asset freeze of the type I think you are referring i.e. Multi-billions. The problem lies where there are many hundreds of accounts containing hundreds of thousands.

The Bank of England is not privately owned, one cannot buy shares in the Bank of England. The Federal Reserve is a private concern which lends the US Government money and charges interest which the US pays using tax revenues, totally usurious and a racket in my humble opinion, thankfully I think the US public are becoming educated to this. The BIS is not a bank as such, one could not open a current account with the BIS, it is a centre for banking policy research.

I do agree that there are amoral and self serving people in the banking sector KPMG Zurich and Credit Suisse being two alleged co-conspirators in laundering around $400million of Marcos' stash in full knowledge and with the collusion of the Swiss Government who were in turn aware of the grinding poverty of the people of the Pillipines; but that could be said of politicians too and doctors and college professors and bankers and jailers and policemen and and and and .........dare I say it.........lawyers.

If there is an opportunity to take a kickback for a speeding ticket, a good grade on a term paper or a numbered bank account some individuals will find it difficult to politely decline that kickback, the results are the same they just differ by degrees. Human nature cannot be changed.

To GLPH: I had better examples or documentation. But the files are now corrupts. If time permits, I will reach for them and run them by you. -- Who owns The Federal Reserve and The Bank of England? These two companies are both believed by most to be part of their countries government. They are NOT. They are private companies. They are not even publicly traded companies. So who owns them? Chosen by Asker Gray Shadow, the Fed is not owned by the government, and you know it. Stop spreading disinformation. The asker already knows part of the truth... the cat's out of the bag. You're wasting your time.

What kind of person would troll Y!A lying in defense of central bankers, anyways?

Who owns the FED? If you want the TRUTH, you'll have to look a little further than the Federal Reserve's own website! LOL!

The short answer: the private ownership of the Fed is a closely guarded secret. However, it is generally believed that the following banks/families have at least some stake:

1. Rothschild Bank of London 2. Warburg Bank of Hamburg 3. Rothschild Bank of Berlin 4. Lehman Brothers of New York 5. Lazard Brothers of Paris 6. Kuhn Loeb Bank of New York 7. Israel Moses Seif Banks of Italy 8. Goldman, Sachs of New York 9. Warburg Bank of Amsterdam 10. Chase Manhattan Bank of New York.

Now, the long answer is more complex. Have a look at these charts: http://www.save-a-patriot.org/files/view...

According to the information presented there (assuming not much has changed since 1976) it would appear that the Bank of England actually owns the Federal Reserve and the IRS.

The Bank of England is, in turn, almost certainly owned by the Rothschild family, though if they saw fit to sell shares, they would not be required to report this, since these are privately traded companies we're talking about.

Also, please note that to determine who controls these institutions, it's not enough to simply list the shareholders, one must also take into consideration who, in turn, owns the shareholders themselves. Furthermore, the influence and connections of the chairmen cannot be ignored, as these men are the ones making the decisions.