allAfrica.com
12 July 2008
Russia and China vetoed a United Nations Security Council resolution on Friday which would have imposed an arms embargo against Zimbabwe and financial and travel sanctions on President Robert Mugabe and other key leaders of the country's ruling party.
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Do you have a clue what is going on in Zimbabwe? Do you know how much the people are suffering as a result of Mugabe's rule? This has nothing to do with Iraq in the least! The U.S. will not go into Zimbabwe. Frankly, as a country, we don't care about Africa. At least we are on the side of good in this case. I have a friend from Zimbabwe that is in jail in America because his parents oil business was taken by Mugabe and his thugs. As a result he could not pay his college tuition and was arrested on visa violations. His once well off family is starving now because everything they worked for was taken at the point of a gun. No sanctions a good thing...only if you are in bed with Mugabe.
"Do you have a clue what is going on in Zimbabwe? Do you know how much the people are suffering as a result of Mugabe's rule?" Many more are suffering because of western-imposed sanctions.
"This has nothing to do with Iraq in the least! The U.S. will not go into Zimbabwe. Frankly, as a country, we don't care about Africa." And this is news?
"At least we are on the side of good in this case." What "we" are we talking about western man?
"I have a friend from Zimbabwe that is in jail in America because his parents oil business was taken by Mugabe and his thugs. As a result he could not pay his college tuition and was arrested on visa violations. His once well off family is starving now because everything they worked for was taken at the point of a gun." Zimbabwe has oil? So that explains the West's "humanitarian interest" in the welfare of Zimbabweans.
"No sanctions a good thing...only if you are in bed with Mugabe." Or you are not interested in punishing the majority of the country's citizens for not voting for a foreign-sponsored candidate. Or you're not caught up in all the lies and propaganda designed to bring down the government of a sovereign country. Or if you have the courage to do the right thing in spite of all the pressure brought upon you by those with an agenda to control everyone and everything that they can by using their wealth and power gained from centuries of exploitation of the same people (Africans) that they still seek to control or punish if they resist.
Western countries want to oust Mugabe from power for two reasons. First, Mugabe sent his military to DR Congo in the 1990's to halt the invasion and occupation of DR Congo by the armies of Rwanda, Burundi, and Uganda. The invasion was financially and militarily sponsored by the USA and UK, and its aim was to effect a regime change in DR Congo so that western countries would loot the natural resources of DR Congo at will. Up until the time of the invasion, Zimbabwe had been buying its jet fighters from England, with an agreement that the sellers of those jet fighters would be supplying jets' spare parts to Zimbabwe should Zimbabwe need any spare parts. Surprisingly, after Zimbabwe's military intervention in DR Congo, UK declared it illegal for any British firm to sell military equipment, including jet fighters' spare parts, to Zimbabwe. In response, Mugabe turned to China, from whence he began to buy military equipment.
Second, the redistribution of the land, which had illegally been acquired and owned by white farmers for years, to Black Zimbabweans is, in the western view, a crime that Mugabe should not have committed and for which he cannot be forgiven. Hence the USA and UK's endeavour to mobilize the world, including the UN, the European Union, the African Union, and individual nations against Mugabe. However, African leaders, as well as other leaders in the world, know the true motives behind this worldwide mobilization by the USA and UK. Accordingly, the African Union's resolution on Zimbabwe has been far from being an endorsement of the joint stand of the USA, UK, and their Western allies on Mugabe's Zimbabwe. Besides, Rusia and China vetoed the USA-drafted resolution (that sought to impose sanctions on Mugabe's regime) at the UN's Security Council.
I'm sorry, how is this post relevant to this article? Why do you continually cut and post your comments from one string to the next? What if everyone did that? Do you think that you have written a master piece and the more places your copy it too, the more praise your ego will receive? Do you think your voice needs to be heard 100 times while everyone else just the once? Do you think you are that much more special than everyone else?
THIS IS WHAT MUGABE IS UP AGAINST "Character Assination","Nation Destabilization" the Brits are Master of this game and they have perfected it to a fine art. CHECK THESE OUT ON YOU TUBE and then write your article
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Where was the voices of the England when all this was happening !!!!! Fight you fight for economic freedom Mr Mugabe and blaze a economic trail for Africa Unfortunately In order for a tree to bear good fruit the tree has to be pruned Parasites and dead wood removed in order for the tree to grow tall strong and fruitfully
Where were the voices of the peoples of England, France and the USA when their rulers institutes laws that institutionalizes economic entrapment labor entrapment and psychological warfare in the USA and Africa !!!!! Their Governments implemented policies to Suck the economic life blood of the poor struggling nations around the planet.
You only hear their Politicians and their mouth pieces (news media) bellowing when the sheep refuses to be shorn, as they endeavor to put non Europeans back in their rightful place. "Their house boys in suits" Lets shine a light Question: In what country, and in what years the words below in brackets were most prevalent. They were written on signs and were officially posted on prominent buildings through out that country
“Europeans only Chinese and dogs not allowed ”
I'm sorry, how is this post relevant to this article? Why do you continually cut and post your comments from one string to the next? What if everyone did that? Do you think that you have written a master piece and the more places your copy it too, the more praise your ego will receive? Do you think your voice needs to be heard 100 times while everyone else just the once? Do you think you are that much more special than everyone else?
That is very ridiculous to hear this from an American. If as a country you don't care for Africa, then why are fighting teeth and nails to see to it that your stooge is put in power in Zimbabwe. Why in the world are you so sympathetic to the opposition in that country! Do you think Zimbabwe is the only country where the opposition is in trouble.I think if you were so sympathetic to your jailed friend you'd help solve his problems. How many Iraqis have lost their everything because of America's unjust invasion. The problem with you is that you happen to think the whole world must happily chase your interests whenever you need. There will come time when justice will prevail, believe me.
GOD BLESS AMERICA ...THE LAND OF THE FREE WHITE PEOPLE ...SERFS FREE FROM THE OPPRESSIVE KINGDOMS IN EUROPE
Haha... akafunboy thinks the first and second world wars were fought by only Germany and England. He is so dumb. He needs to go back to school before any of us take him seriously.
I think people are sympathetic to the opposition to Mugabe because: 1) He lost the vote to the opposition party 2) In the past two years the country's economy has gone downhill fast with inflation out of control 3) Mugabe has taken over radio, TV, and print in an attempt to prevent freedom of people to speak out against him. 4) Many of the Citizens of Zimbabwe were afraid to oppose Mugabe in the second election due to intimidation
Who would not want to sympathize with the opposition??
USA is including UK and France are playing fatherly role while Russia, China, and South Africa are just bedfollow acting like Gay! Russia and China will always go opposite direction of USA because they want to be like her but don't want to practice 'Democracy". We're people of freedom and want others to be free. South Africa has forgetten when they were under the same pressure under the Europeans but they want Mongabe to suffer the people of Zimbabwe. China wants war in Zimbabwe so they can be able to sell guns/ weapon to make money. China and Russia will always support dictatorship in Africa so they can benefit in marketing guns cause that Russia main source of income. Only America really care about Africans this is why they are the largest donor to Africa. Where is Russia, China and S. Africa? I'm sick and tire of their mess in the whole wide world.
Well, if Mugabe now causes another genocide like the one in the 80's where he killed 20,000 of his own people, then the Chinese and Russians will have some of the blood on their hands for failing to act. This has been noted.
A great day for Afraka!!!!!! We have always been proud of the few Pan Afrakan Leaders scattered among the overwheming puppets "leading our Afraka! Thanl you Mbeki's Azania, Quadaffi's Peoples Republic of Libya, and paryicularly, the Great people of our Zimbabwe.
Also, we extend our love n' appreciation to the equally great peoples of Vietnam, the great peoples of the Republic of China, and last but not the least the great peoples of Russia. We have great hope for the future, for we know that this planet, our world, is not doomed after all, due to States such as the above.
Certainly, the good gods of our planet do really care about the survival and welfare of the planet and its people. As the saying goes, evil prevail when good people remain silent. The bold stand by these five Security Council members, and surely many other states of our world, who would have taken similar positions in defense of the smaller n' weaker nations from imperial aggression. To these states, we say thank you for creating a better community for all the peoples of the world1
One of our greatest pan Afrakn prophets Bob Marley would remind us again that "they can fool most of the people most of the time, but they sure cannot fool all the people all the time".
Are you going to support the millions of Zimbabweans who are starving in Zimbabwe and are also fleeing to South Africa with their wives and children and begging for help in the streets? Are you going to provide homes and jobs and security for them? Put your money where your mouth is. Talk is cheap. What will you do when you end up without a roof over your head and you are starving? Will you carry on crowing about how wonderfully Mugabe and his henchman have provided for the citizens of his country?
LIAR!!! NO ONE IS STARVING IN ZIMBABWE!!! You fib and fib. Life is certainly very hard and things could be better and should be better if ONLY brother Tsvangirai had not decided to ask for sanctions in the hope that when the POVO see their standards of living has gone down, and it definitely has, they would blame the government and remove it. Mr Tsvangirayi allowed himself to be used by the colonials and their supporters. He got wrong advice from Rhodesians. Otherwise Mr Tsvangirai appears a good man who was so naive at the start of his politics. l must admit l notice an improvemwent in him and the other one, BITI. Keep at it. Do your homework and carry out your corrections.
No one is starving in Zimbabwe? Haha. Just like you believe that the first and second world wars were fought solely by Germany and England, you make us laugh again akafunboy. I suggest you go back to school and get yourself and education.
The homework on this point has been done many times and the result comes out the same ..... farms have been run down and are no longer providing enough food, prices have spiralled to the point where even the basics are out of reach of a lot of people, when the prices are dropped by government decree, the businesses that sell the food go out of business which puts the prices back up, importation of food is insufficient to meet the needs of the country, the government have trumped up suspicions against aid agencies hence food aid is down.
And yet all you can do is bury your head in the sand and call people liars when they draw your attention to the truth ..... I suggest it is you that needs to do your homework and make your corrections, and maybe an apology or two while you're at it.
Apologies for the double post, but as a small addendum to my previous post I add:
The food production/prices and importation/aid problems have been caused directly by the actions of the Mugabe regime, ill planned land reallocations to non farmers, ZANU only food distribution leaving non ZANU members at and below the starvation level, his paranoia about the west, and his lust to retain power at whatever cost while allowing himself and the ZANU upper echelon to siphon the resources that the country has left into personal bank accounts.
Face it, Mugabe cares about one thing ..... Not Zimbabwe, not Zimbabwean people ..... all Mugabe cares about is Mugabe.
A great day for Afraka!!!!!! We have always been proud of the few Pan Afrakan Leaders scattered among the overwhelming puppets "leading our Afraka! Thank you Mbeki's Azania, Quadaffi's Peoples Republic of Libya, and particularly, the Great people of our Zimbabwe.
Also, we extend our love n' appreciation to the equally great peoples of Vietnam, the great peoples of the Republic of China, and last but not the least the great peoples of Russia. We have great hope for the future, for we know that this planet, our world, is not doomed after all, due to States such as the above.
Certainly, the good gods of our planet do really care about the survival and welfare of the planet and its people. As the saying goes, evil prevail when good people remain silent. These five Security Council members took a bold stand, and surely many other states of our world would have taken similar positions in defense of the smaller n' weaker nations from imperial aggression. To these states, we say thank you for creating a better community for all the peoples of the world1
One of our greatest pan Afrakan prophets Bob Marley would remind us again that "they can fool most of the people most of the time, but they sure cannot fool all the people all the time".
I think you'll find that the quote you used there was originally used by a US president way before Bob Marley's time.
As for Mugabe being one of the great leaders, this may have been the case when he took power simply because of him being a hero of the liberation struggle ..... but now, with the blood of thousands of Zimbabweans of all colours and creeds staining his hands, he is no longer so. All he is now turns out to be a bitter old man who is willing to terrorise his own people in his attempt to hold onto power.
How long is it going to be before he stops blaming others and starts taking responsibility for his actions and mistakes in Zimbabwe? How long before he regrets what he has turned the once proud and productive Zimbabwe into? And does he really think that when he faces his final judgement he will be allowed into the promised land?
Somehow I think he'll be going somewhere far warmer than that, among his peers.
"Somehow I think he'll be going somewhere far warmer than that, among his peers" In which case I'm sure he'll meet up with his old opponents from the West and the battle goes on!
Thats fine by me, as long as they're all battling it out away from the people whose lives they have little to no regard for while in office ..... and just for the record, it won't just be western leaders he's down there with, there'll be plenty of 'friends' from all over the world to go head to head with, and the sooner the better.
The Russia's and China's veto is a very good news for us all, except of course for the Anglos;Brits and Yankees.It is an other proof that shows that the "West" can not dictate any more his will to the rest of the world not even lecture the rest of the world! The "West" has no credibility left. Excellent news. Thanks China and Russia, we can believe in you.Yes we can.
Just means either a short delay to the sanction or other was of doing the sanctions. Be interesting to see how Russia and China get stung for this.I would guess the us and UK and EU will back Tibet very publicly and there will some sort of embarrassment put on china before or during the Olympics?? As to Russia you will probably find they will publicly ridicule Russia for lack of Aid/Relief around the world and support Georgia in some way??
The Russia's and China's veto is a very good news for us all, except of course for the Anglos;Brits and Yankees.It is an other proof that shows that the "West" can not dictate any more his will to the rest of the world not even lecture the rest of the world! The "West" has no credibility left. Excellent news. Thanks China and Russia, we can believe in you.Yes we can.
China and Russia belong to the same league as Zim
UK and US should go it alone.
Mugabe regimes negotiates by day and kills opposition by night.
Zim gov is celebrating democracy (UN voting) that they themselves are denying Zim population.
Victory for Afrika then why are Afrikans flooding US and UK /.
"Victory for Afrika then why are Afrikans flooding US and UK /." Could it be because they lack pride and confidence in their African abilities to do the work required for long-term nation building and that they are taking the easy way out to get the gadgets of the West? This, combined with the West's continued successful attempts to corrupt some African leaders and to pit group against group (tribe against tribe) in order to keep a divided and distracted populace from seeing how they are being pillaged of the resources that they should be using to build strong societies and economies of their own. So, it is not all that simple when you think about it. The fact is that if Africa ever decides to use the China model of the 1950 - 1975 period and turn inward (block all outside interference) approximately 85 - 95% of those going to the US and UK today would no longer do so. I speak to Africans all the time who would love to return to their home countries given the right conditions, and those conditions can never happen as long as foreigners dictate what happens in Africa.
US/UK keep getting humiliated in international diplomacy, when will they ever work up? Mugabe is President of Zimbabwe with a mandate to rule for 5 years and it is good time to look into an all inclusive, all participatory GNU if the remaining whites in Zim are to have their human face restored. The time for racial supremacy is long gone and Mugabe has wittily taken advantage to have a fresh mandate thanks to british idiotic racist foreign policy.
I hope this will make the US and UK realise that a new approach is needed. Personally I few with great suspicion their determination. Are we to believe that this is all due to their love and concern of the ordinary Zimbabwean? When they can't show love and concern for the blacks living in their respective countries? Hmm....
Thanks Comrades for your thoughts. China and Russia need to be commended for making proper and effective use of their Veto powers.
They have shown particular the UK and USA and the rest of the world that they too are powerful nations.
China and Russia have natural resources like Africa that can be tapped. I am writing from Sierra Leone. We know the pains behind sanctions. Sanctions are more lethal than the gun , knife and the rest. One more time thank you China and Russia for preventing more suffering in zimbabwe. But the braggarts including UK and USA are trouble shooters. Nanghai
Praise the Lord! Praise HIM.
The UN Security Council have, in effect, told the UK, the EU and the US to take a hike and to remove themselves, with their feigned altruism, from Zimbabwean and African efforts to resolve Zimbabwe's economic challenges as brought about by the the UK, the EU and the EU in the first place.
There is a God and He sees and knows all. May the evil doers now pack up their stalls and go home and focus their efforts on providing relief to the abjectly poor and socially oppressed in their own countries.
Tell us then.. if the UN security council has told the EU, UK etc to take a hike, then why is Mugabe still negotiating with the MDC? I thought he had the will of the voters from the run off? Surely by negotiating he is admitting that he won the election through violence and intimidation, otherwise, why negotiate?
This shows afterall, that the world is not sleeping and refuse to be dictated to by uk, us.People are ready and able to look seriously at the facts before acting, unfortunately,some don,t care to look at the facts.The uk, us, are negative influences that,ll be sooner or later eradicated for the continent to grow.Who says that Africa can,t choose her friends the way she deems fit and.We have to commend the stance taken by these countries who want to to see the wider picture than acting on soundbytes orchestrated by cnn, bbc, fox news and their ilk.At least for now the arrogant and racist west has been put where it surely belong.
What suprises me is that anyone for one moment didn't think that Russia and China would veto the proposal.
Glyph
"What suprises me is that anyone for one moment didn't think that Russia and China would veto the proposal".
Yeah, I'm convinced they're all talking tosh! Of course they knew how everyone was going to vote. In fact, the only reason the Security Council issued that first statement a couple of weeks ago and now even wasted time considering sanctions is because the UK is currently the temporary president of the SC on the rolling presidency so they been making mischeif as much as they can.
But check this out, I find this really interesting;
FOR:
Belgium (EU), Burkina Faso (African lovers of all things French), Costa Rica (51st state), Croatia (gagging to be EU), France (EU), Italy (EU), Panama (52nd state), UK (EU), United States
AGAINST:
China, Libya, Russia, South Africa, Vietnam
In essence, that New World Order is increasingly looking like the European Union (Western Europe) and the United States of America Vs Africa, Asia and Russia (Eastern Europe).
I'm LOVING IT!! LOL! :-) :-)
Selector - who would have forseen that the Soviet Union would have collapsed so quickly? who would have forseen that the Peoples Republic of China would throw out Marxism in favour of a whole hearted embrace of capitalism? Whether you like it or not the winds of change are blowing strongly in Africa and change for the better is coming to Zimbabwe.
It is good that there is further evidence that we do not in fact live in a unipolar world. It is good that no one power dominates others. Most rational people would be in favour of that idea; however one thing that most rational people also know is that totalitarianism is not sustainable in the long term. Zanu-pf is a spent force.
katz, who would have foreseen that Russia would rebound so quickly and become a world power? Who would have foreseen that China would take capitalism, perfect it using Communism, and use it to become the global, free-market force she is today to the point where China's reserves of otherwise near-valueless US dollars are propping up developed Western economies including America's.
"It is good that no one power dominates others. Most rational people would be in favour of that idea; however one thing that most rational people also know is that totalitarianism is not sustainable in the long term".
You must live on a different planet to me. Capitalism culminates precisely in totalitarianism. Take a look at world oil prices and supply, take a look a global pharmacy, at Microsoft, at car manufacture where a literal handful of organisations conspire to control and manipulate global markets. Take a look at China's domination using capitalism and take a look at Russia's growing position as a world gas supplier.
When the motivation is greed, when capitalism demands accumulation of capital way past the ability to consume whilst others, including children, literally starve to death and die of avoidable diseases, there is no place for rationale.
Selector - I can only conclude that I do indeed live on a different planet to you. And I thank God for that fact.
By the way those 'near-valueless US dollars' are still the principal currency of the world and the US economy is still the largest one in the world; and that goes for whether the size of the economy is measured on formal exchange rates or on purchase pricing parity.
And I don't think that Russia rebounded to become a world power - it always was; how could it be any otherwise as the largest country in the world and possessed of a nuclear arsenal of the size that it has?
And I do not think that China has perfected capitalism using Communism; but then your definition of capitalism is undoubtedly very different to mine so it would be pointless in pursuing that argument.
katz
"By the way those 'near-valueless US dollars' are still the principal currency of the world and the US economy is still the largest one in the world; and that goes for whether the size of the economy is measured on formal exchange rates or on purchase pricing parity".
LOL! You're right. Would that oil were priced in a currency with any value we'd not have experienced the price triple in the last two years - the dollar's propped up by China; simple really.
I too thank God that we live on different planets, just as suffering Africans would thank God that others are not suffering the same plight as their own. It all gets a bit fanciful when those whose world's are feathered try to tell sufferers how things 'ought' to be and rant about the luxuries of democracy, liberty and freedoms whilst overlooking food, shelter, security and opportunity.
As soon as the Zimbabwean land situation is resolved, I am confident the government and good people of Zimbabwe will be happy to turn their attentions to luxuries.
I love this bit Selector:
"overlooking food, shelter, security and opportunity"
Lets see, Mugabe's Land Reforms have decreased the productivity of the farms to a small percentage of their previous levels, causing a food crisis in Zimbabwe. Most of the land that used to provide food for domestic use and export is barren and lifeless, sorting that out would take years with the sort of commitment to the people that ZANU have proved time and time again that they are not capable or willing to provide.
Shelter: Making hundreds of thousands homeless is certainly not the way to solve this situation, but through the last 10 years that is exactly what Mugabe and ZANU have done.
Security: there's real security in ZImbabwe at the moment isn't there? At least there is if you buy into Mugabe's BS and lose the ability to do what any rational person would do and question some of the insane policies that ZANU have introduced. Mugabe wants a nation of blindly following sheep, and thats exactly what you're giving him ..... the problem with following blindly is that anyone who demands that you do it 99% of the time has something to hide, and Mugabe isn't one of the 1%.
Opportunity: 80% unemployment, theres real opportunity for you ..... again something that has been brought about by Mugabe's desire to get the whites out regardless of the consequences to Zimbabwe. Party faithful ZANU members have been 'rewarded' with company positions and farms which they have then run into the ground because they didn't know what the hell they were doing, no training, no experience, but a desire to do the work because it looked good.
Face it, Mugabe has almost turned Zimbabwe into a complete wasteland, and if you think Russia or China will help out of the goodness of their hearts you're very much mistaken ..... they're every bit the colonial powers that the UK and US have been, and the sooner you realise that the better.
I think it's time to get rid of the chip off your shoulder and look at the world around you, because when you finally stop looking at things as black and white you might be able to make a difference.
Selector, Yet another superb, knowledgeable post by you. You must be one of "them" professors or something, 'cause you know your stuff! (LOL) Whatever the case, you are a blessing to these boards.
djoser, you don't do so badly yourself! :-)
Love and respect, everytime.
Guidance.
This post was deleted because it contravenes AllAfrica's commenting guidelines.
Actually selector what I was getting at is the fact that those who vetoed and voted against the proposal being:
Russia: a country where political parties must be approved by the President before they can even run and where the President selects his successor before he takes a sideways promotion to Prime Minister sounds suspiciously like somewhere else we could mention. Let’s not forget the bottoming out of diplomatic relations between the UK and Russia over Boris Berezovsky and the murder of Alexander Litvinenko by FSB agents(allegedly). Naturally the Russians aren't overjoyed about their nuclear arsenal being contained by the proposed, "missile shield" so they were also bound to vote against a US joint sponsored proposal following the recent agreement of the Czech Republic to site a key component of the system on their soil. “Don’t build a missile shield, but don’t protest when we supply the raw materials for a nuclear device to Iran”?!?!?$%$
If you think for one moment that Russia voted the way they did out of solidarity with McGarbage or ZANU PF or even for one moment that Zimbabwe was foremost in their minds I humbly suggest that your view of the political machinations at the UN is flawed.
China: where there are 8 political parties but they can only exist if they endorse the policies of the Chinese communist Party. I thought that China would abstain but I guess the arms embargo got their little communo-capitalist hearts a-racing.
Libya: which hasn’t elected its legislature since 1969.
Vietnam: which is a one party state.
And not forgetting The Republic of South Africa which has done nothing but enable McGarbage since the first elections in March.
I'm so glad you're loving it. You must be easily pleased, once again there was no way Russia and China weren't going to veto the sanctions proposal it was probably one of the safest bets of all time, and of course the other loony-toons are going to vote against also.....birds of a feather and all that Malarkey.
Glyph, what's wrong with being easily pleased? What I'm loving is the stand against the self interests of the UK, the EU and the US. Historically, particularly in Africa, such a formidable union would have got their way in the face of futile local resistance alone. It matters little from where or why additional support comes, what matters is that the bully boys are no longer able to dictate, whimsically, to African countries and that they are being held to account, asked to justify themselves and adhere to international law - things they've spent centuries riding roughshod over when it comes to Africa.
I am, indeed, most pleased.
Glyph, we could not tell what way China or Russia were to vote in part because every word indicating that China/Russia were not happy (as they should) with Zimbabwe were taken out of context by the usual "Anglo" media and twisted a million times! When you read between the lines in UK papers, sometimes you can see how everything on Zimbabwe get spinned and twisted around several million times. This is at times called "propaganda". The Western world should never again be given the right to use the UN vote to impose sanctions on any country! Why, because like Iraq, most of the time sanctions only serve the interests of the western world. Africa must fight hard to get a veto power vote, alternative to that is to vote against resolutions such as one on Zimbabwe. Sanctions on Zimbabwe would have "killed" dialogue in the country and caused untold suffering. Robert Mugabe could also have become worse...not that he is any better now!
Phiri once again we seem to find ourselves in partial agreement.
The press reaction to Russia taking sides at the G8 was totally overblown, the fact that the clues regarding the way Russia was likely to vote at the UN came from whispers from Italy set my alarm bells ringing immediately.
Russia likes being a member of the G8, the G8 is where the money is. The UN? Not so much. Russia has used it’s veto 123 times in the past 10 years. Mainly when it comes to Iran and other countries to which it exports major armaments and nuclear materials and technical assistance. The United States has used its veto 88 times in the last ten years, funnily enough most of those vetoes were used on resolutions concerning Israel. Make of that what you will.
Further up the page I have stated that it is naive to think that Zimbabwe was foremost in the mind of the Russians when they vetoed the proposal to exert sanctions on Zimbabwe. Russia was playing international tit-for-tat regarding sour diplomatic relations with the UK and the anti-ballistic missile shield which is planned to be sited in former Warsaw pact states by the US. Russia fears that its nuclear weapons which are still its greatest item of prestige will be contained and thereby Russia will be emasculated.
Whether you find it surprising or not I actually think that the UN Security Council is merely a vehicle for the five permanent members to play politics and look after their respective interests in the world which is fundamentally dishonest.
The UN Security Council was as quick as a rat up a drainpipe when Kuwait was invaded; god forbid oil supplies were disrupted. I can however by contrast recall a time in my life when I was a 28year old officer in the former Yugoslavia where I heard that 450 peace keepers from the Netherlands had been ordered to do nothing by the UN while the Serbs slaughtered thousands of the Bosniaks in Srebrenica. I have held no illusions about the UNSC since then.
More recently the Janjawe’ed militias who are supported by the Sudanese Government have demonstrated that there are no consequences for breaching a Security Council Resolution as they slaughter hundreds of thousands of innocents in Darfur. The UN has continuously failed to display the political will to react to this.
As far as I am concerned Africa should have a veto and then everyone can just veto each other all day long and into the night and those diplomats and pencil pushers can all feel important because someone told them they were important and they can have a great time on the UN/NY gravy train......and acomplish even less than they do now.
Incredible that the UN was actually formed in the wake of the WW2 holocaust to ensure that no there could be no more atrocities of that sort against human rights again, and yet they have stood back and talked while another approximation of that situation unfolded time and time again.
The UN have been a waste of space for years, and will continue to be so until the delegates can start seeing eye to eye, discussing the problems at hand instead of plying tit-for-tat games with international politics.
What we need is adults in the UN and not the spoilt little children that have been given free reign for the last 30+ years.
Phiri
"Africa must fight hard to get a veto power vote, alternative to that is to vote against resolutions such as one on Zimbabwe. Sanctions on Zimbabwe would have "killed" dialogue in the country and caused untold suffering".
You are, of course, correct. Sanctions would have, at best, seriously damaged the prospects of constructive and successful mediation talks and, at worst, stopped talks dead in their tracks. I'm inclined to think that that was the precise intention of the UK and US as their is little profit or kudos for either of them in Africans finding solutions to their own problems. I was delighted to hear an MDC spokesperson say yesterday that the failed resolution was unimportant as the MDC are invested in the South African talks.
Africa is the only continent without a permanent seat on the Security Council. That needs to change if the likes of the UK and the US are to be stopped from attempts at abuse of power and position to impose their whim and will, the world over.
Phiri - I for one was not in favour of the UN imposing sanctions on Zimbabwe, however, my reasons probably differ from yours. I believe that the type of sanctions recently proposed, albeit they were not economic in nature, would merely have provided ammunition to the Mugabe regime to continue pushing the falacy that the collapse of the Zimbabwe economy is due to Western sponsored sanctions.
In any event, if sanctions are to be applied by the UN they should be directed at undermining the ability of undesirable regimes to continue in power. These proposed sanctions were only symbolic in nature. The facts of the matter are that no sanctions imposed by the UN on Zimbabwe could do more to undermine Mugabe than his lunatic economic policies are already doing.
As for your fixation with the Anglo-Americans throwing their weight around, I will surmise that had you been old enough in 1965 you would not have been against the British sponsored sanctions that the UN imposed on the Smith regime. (Interestingly the Chinese and the Soviets did not veto those sanctions even though Smith could hardly have been considered a threat to world peace and the affairs of Rhodesia were no less domestic than those of Zimbabwe.)
Nicely put Katz, I've found it morbidly interesting over the last few years (and have actually commented on occasion) that Mugabe and ZANU have decried the 'illegal' sanctions on Zimbabwe as the primary reason that Zimbabwe's economy is in freefall. Yet those very same people saw the far harsher sanctions on the Smith regime as legitimate, yet insinuate that they played no part in the fall of Rhodesia, claiming that it was all down to ZANLA and ZIPRA magically winning a war that was reaching stalemate point. You can't have it both ways, and it is a catch 22 situation ..... if the sanctions were illegal against Rhodesia, then Mugabe is illegally in power through coup and Western assistance, but if they were legal then and now in their softer form, it shows that Mugabe's government is illegitimate enough to warrant them.
I also still find it amazing that some people on here seem to bear a grudge against all white people, lumping them all together as the colonial and imperialist aggressor, who couldn't possibly have an interest in seeing African states succeed. Wake up call guys, I'm not Gordon Brown, I'm not Tony Blair and I sure as hell am not George Bush ..... Zimbabwe is part of my history and part of my life, so I have an interest in seeing the country healed and the people free (free to prosper not just free to be treated like crap by a government that has no respect at all for life)
In addition to this I find it incredible that the people who flee Zimbabwe in fear of their lives are called traitors and puppets by some on here ..... I sincerely hope that none of you ever fall foul of ZANU, because that would certainly make you hypocrites if you had to flee in fear for your own.
I a Zimbabwean living in Zimbabwe. Today I withdrew $100 billion the maximum that is allowed per day. To get to the bank I paid $20 billion and I shall pay another $20 billion to get home. A KG of meat costs $180 billion. A pint of beer costs $70 billion.
All this Pan African talk is not going to serve Mugabe. The politics of the stomach will defeat him. It is funny that Russia & China are working to support Mugabe's crusade against the so called western imperialists yet these two countries have not anything to save Zimbabwe's economy, or to assist the disadvantaged. We continue to rely on the imperialists for aid and they are our only hope for econnomic recovery.
After this veto Russia and China should commit resources to the recovery of Zimbabwe. We are tied of these big countries using our plight to play their power games. To these two, Zimbabwe is just a harmless opportunity to flex their muscles and spite the west.
To Black Jesus. Thank you for your article, which shows the reality of the situation for all Zimbabwean citizens. It is easy for people who are not suffering in the terrible situation to praise people who support Mugabe and his henchmen. I pray for you and for the good people of Zimbabwe who do not deserve the terrible life that their government has paved out for them.
Black Jesus, whether you spend $100 billion or $100 is a matter of currency. Try not to get tied up in currency, it's irrelavant whether you pay $70 billion for a beer or $7, it's the same damned thing.
It appears your actual complaint is about the numbers of zeros on your currency, or in others words; nothing.
Selector, Thanks again for the valuable education that you provide for so many of the ignorant on these boards.
Actually dLoser, you can stop wxnking off Selector, because I think you'll find that his comment here is quite stupid, and lacks an education about basic maths. The point Black Jesus was making isnt relating to the number of zeros. So I'll take these off to remove the confustion for the obviously easily confused. According to Black Jesus, "Today I withdrew $100 the maximum that is allowed per day. To get to the bank I paid $20 and I shall pay another $20 to get home. A KG of meat costs $180. A pint of beer costs $70. And yes selector says there is nothing wrong with this. When it costs you $40 of the maximum amount of money you can take $100, you are only left with $60. Which has cost you $100 in the first place. And to buy anything, even a pint of beer, something very basic, it costs you more than this $60. So it makes it near on impossible for Black Jesus to use Zimbabwean currency. And you think there is nothing to complain about? But I guess, as usual, you are just trying to create a perception for everyone that the problems in Zim are nothing. Guess you cant hide behind reality can you.
awt, give up. Do yourself a favour and give up. The more you try to goad me, the more vicious I will become. Black Jesus is patently a fool or not living in Zimbabwe... if he can't get out a cheque book and draw on bank funds to reduce costs:
"Cheque limits have been removed with immediate effect and both companies and individuals can now once again issue cheques of any amount so long as there are adequate funds in their bank accounts".
http://allafrica.com/stories/200807140099.html
But Selector, you miss the point once again. The point is that he shouldnt have to get a cheque book, and should be able to use cash. Should Zimbabwe just become a cashless society? Just getting a cheque book is surely just a small bandaid on a festering problem....
awt, if Black Jesus can use plastic then why can't he a cheque? In both cases we are talking about money he has and not money he hasn't got.
When your German printer stop supplying your currency under duress from the German government and the EU, then cheques are what a country's left with.
http://www.xe.com/news/detail.htm?articleId=17805
But Selector, you miss the point once again. The point is that he shouldnt have to get a cheque book, and should be able to use cash. Should Zimbabwe just become a cashless society? Just getting a cheque book is surely just a small bandaid on a festering problem....
And you assume that banks will issue cheque books to everyone... maybe your type Selector, but not all the poor. And these are the people that suffer here.
Now there is absolutely no doubt that Mugabe is a very sick man in deed. First there is lack of insight in how politically irrelevant and illegitimate he has become to Zimbabwe and its political processes; then now this utterly disgusting utterances which can only come from a mentally sick person! Surely at his age Mugabe must be envying those of younger generation politicians who still have more time left to contribute to the Zimbabwen political reforms and development in the years to come. He appears to personify some species of primitive rulers of eras gone in history who would not die alone but have many other lives burried with them. Mugabe in his present state of mind would surely not hesitate to do the same and have some youthful lives burried with him when his time soon comes. In some parts of Africa, he would earn himself the accolade of being called a wizard, for that is in deed what you are Com Mugabe!
I look forward to the President of Zimbabwe, Mr. Mugaba, showing his deep and abiding respect for the Constitution of Zimbabwe. He should immediately set about ensuring that the members of the Zimbabwean Congress, newly elected, are duly sworn in and seated. The Congress of Zimbabwe can then, through their law-making function, assist in the governance of the country.
Haha.. how many elected MDC members will actually be able to have an influence from 6 ft underground at the hand of Mugabe's respect for the constitution!
I really don't think anyone outside Zimbabwe knows whats going on and thats the way Bob wants it.
To all those who are cheering the Chinese and Russian decision to veto UN sanctions against the blood-stained monster illegitimate President Mugabe and his clique, I will say you are supporting killings, maiming and raping of Zimbabwean citizens who hold political opinions that differ from those of Mugabe. Those amongst who are cheering and who are themselves Africans, I will say you are playing with deadly fire!!
Beware! I know of Liberian friends who were laughing at what was happening in Sierra leone and saying this can never happen in Liberia. I know of Kenyan friends who took pride in asserting the Uganda under Idi Amine could not happen in their country. I know of Ivorian friends who also boasted that coups could never happen in their country and who did not show solidarity to people in neighbouring countries suffering from dictators.
Please wake up. You seem far away from the brutal realities in Zimbabwe, unless you relish to live under the rule of a monster whose hands are stained with the blood of innocents who do not think like him; unless you relish to see your wife, sister or daughter being raped under your eyes simply because the monster orders to terrorise all those who do not blindly support his bloody rule!!
Thank God for Afrika, Thank God for all the blessings he has heaped on Afrika in terms of resources GALORE!! Thank God for the HOT SUN and MOSQUITOS that has kept the white colonialists from overstaying their welcome otherwise Africa would have gone the way of the Native Americans and Australians (Dead). Thank God for the great BEAR Mother Russia for finally showing up on behalf of Afrika. We need you to help balance out the equation that is dominated by English, Irish and their American Cousins. Thank you China. We count on you as the leader of the Developing World. We will support you with our resourcesif you in turn stand for us when the Anglo American imperialists try to squeeze us. As for you white Rhodesians and sympathisers, GO HOME. Let the Afrikan do whatever he likes with his land. He does not need to import your wheat when he can grow corn, millet sorghum or whatever. If you are so concerned why not take up the causes of Darfur, Northern Uganda, Somalia and the DRC to mention a few resource rich, war torn African countries.
I have one question to ask on this post:
Where is he going to grow the crops when the farmland that was once so fertile is now turning into a barren and infertile wasteland due to the abuses heaped on the land by inexperienced farmers who were given the land simply because they were ZANU party faithful? Where are the rewards of these crops when Zimbabwe feels the need to do what you so obviously think they don't ..... if the Zim government stopped importing food, there would be a starvation crisis unlike almost any other in the last 20 years.
As far as why the western governments don't get involved in those other countries you mention ..... it may sound harsh, but I don't really give a monkey's tail, the only country I'm interested in seeing in a good shape is Zimbabwe, something which the current ZANU regime is not doing, and Russia and China are doing nothing to help (apart from supplying arms to further suppress the population that is)
The aim of the US in Africa is seemingly to progressively cripple the governments of black African countries as demonstrated by by US activities in Angola Congo Mozambique, Somalia, Ethiopia and the Sudan. The ultimate goal is to take control of the mineral resources of black African countries. Despite the fact that Mugabe has agreed to a dialogue to mend the fences with the oppopsition MDC and the dialogue is already on for few days, the US shows its colours of not being interested in bringing about settlement in Zimbabwe but to totally destroy the country with sanctions that will make life more difficult for the citizens. Seemingly, the more difficult and unbearable life becomes in the country the more satisfied the US is because such a situation will accelerate those tendencies that will ultimately destroy the country and the people. The black race should count their blessing that Russia and China do understand the game being played by the western powers and try to protect the black African countries. LONG LIVE RUSSIA, CHINA AND THE BLACK RACE, LONG LIVE PEACE TO ALL MANKIND!
The Russian and Chinese veto at the U.N. Security Council should not have been a surprise to anyone with even just a pedestrian understanding of international politics and intrigue. The U.S. Secretary of State was in Prague a few days ago and signed an agreement to establish an anti-Russian radar installation there - against strong Russian opposition. That's a slap in Russia's face. The BBC, which carries a relentless anti Zimbabwean propaganda, carries also an constant anti-Russian propaganda for refusing to extradite a Russian national as unethical, while Great Britain refuses to extradite Berezoski, a Russian billionaire to Russia for State fraud. And since the sanctions against Zimbabwe were an Anglo-American move, Russian taught them a lesson in diplomacy. The U.S. and Britain must cooperate with Russia if they want Russian cooperation.
Then, there was the Chinese veto as well. The U.S. keep providing Taiwan with modern weaponry against the Chinese protests. The Chinese veto was the Chinese message to the U.S. that China cannot support the U.S. foreign policy that undermines its own interests in Taiwan as well as in Africa.
I have written other comments on this paper before against Mugabe, and I believe he should be ousted. But the Anglo-American propaganda campaign through BBC, VOA, and other western media has given some credence to Mugabe's claim that all that happens in Zimbabwe is externally orchestrated. And many Zimbabweans and other African leaders look at the puppet regimes the U.S. and Britain have set up in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Musharraf before in Pakistan, and they do not want to see another such puppet regime in Zimbabwe. Add to that the foolish U.S. and British policy toward Russia and China, and their veto at the U.N. Security Council was just a natural outcome. Nikos Retsos, retired academic
Not suprise that clown President Blaise Campaore of Burkina Faso decided to sleep with the enemies of Africa again as he had done before when he betrayed his closest friend and mentor, Prince of Africa, Thomas Sankara. People like Blaise are indeed the obstacles to any meaningful progress within the African continent. Here is a guy that is way worse than Mugabe but because he kisses up to the West, he is basically getting away with all kinds of crimes in Burkina. Mr. Blaise do not think We the Patriotic Sons of Africa will ever forget or forgive your killing of one of the Greatest Leader, General. Thomas Sankara. Long live Africa, Down with Pupppets like Blaise Campaore!!!
China and Russia did the best thing to veto the sanction against Zimbabwe for the sake of peace. Mugabe has been on every headline of major news papers in the U.S. and Britain, because of their interest in Zimbabwe. The question is, what did the colonial master (England) and its Neo-Cum super power did about the conflict between the Hutsis and the Tutsis?, a country very close to Zimbabwe. These two countries only care to exploit the continent off if minirals but dont real care about its people.
You're right. They did nothing to stop the conflict between the hutsis and tutsis. And look what happened. They try to do something in Zimbabwe to prevent this (Mugabe has already murdered 20,000 of his own people in a genocide in the 1980's), and you complain about it. That really is quite sad. Surely the blood of a Zimbabwean is worth something.
A bit rich. Pot calling kettle and all that. Didnt see Mugabe care too much about his people as he beat and murdered them to stay in power. The butcher of harare lives on...
Once again Africa and the lives of Africans do not matter in the corridors of international politics. The Chinese and the Russians do not care for Africa. They are using this vote to leverage their own geopolitical interests vis-a-vis the USA. Any fool, African or otherwise, who thinks this veto has anything remotely connected with interests in the suffering people of Zimbabwe has no clue. We have been here before: Zimbabwe if it is not already there, should not be allowed to slide into the same deplorable inhumane conditions such as exist in Darfur (Sudan), Uganda, or Somalia. It is especially galling that this human suffering is being inflicted by a black African on black Africans using colonialism/racism as an excuse to kill/crush black Africans who threaten his greed for power and riches. The USA has this right like they - Bush Sr - had Somalia right too, until Bill Clinton chickened out as he did in Rwanda. The Chinese and Russians could save their closest friends the North Koreans from hunger and famine first, if they cared for their friends or anybody for that matter. For love of oil the Chinese are in cahoots with Bashir of Sudan who has been indicted by the International Court for genocide in Darfur. Who are are really the true new exploiters ?
Of the sanctions and UK, US, EU and Australian "demands" on Zimbabwe, when these guys take away the whip they may find that Africans respect what they have to say. With the whip in hand, all newly-united Africans see and hear is the whip.
Independent Africa is maturing, growing in stature and global importance. African colonialism is dead and Africans continue to unite in defence of Africa and in the interest of Africans. Africa no longer exists to serve the West or any other masters by any other names. The West needs to fast learn that united African will no longer be dictated to nor succumb to foreign "demands". Africa is all grown up now.
"All newly-united Africans"!!
United Africa is a figament of your imagination. The crisis in Zimbabwe is merely the latest thing to expose the fissures that have existed in Africa throughout history. You can present your facile arguments that all wars in Africa in the past 50 years have been orchestrated by the West but the conditions that have led to Africa repeatedly being the home of some of the bloodiest modern day conflicts must have existed in the first place in order for any external machinations to succeed.
Africa needs to succeed at a state level first and then show that regional blocks can be successful before it dissapates its energy on concepts that are decades, if not centuries, ahead of their time. You do not hear the countries of Asia or South America harping on about them becoming unified super blocs. Why? Because they know that it is nonsense and there are far more pressing matters at hand.
I'm afraid the United States of Africa is a political dead end. Focus on national growth and development then world respect and influence will follow.Getting rid of Mugabe and his like-minded despots is a first step in Africa's rejuvenation.
Katz, I do agree to some extent that Africa is not necessary a "united Africa". There is no such thing as a country called Africa. Africa is a continent of 54 different states. Libya was proposing this kind of unity and most African Presidents felt that regional bodies (such as SADC, East African Community etc) were playing a better role. The African continent is only as strong as it's individual countries.
To a large extent the EU is not really a good model for Africa. It took the EU a long long time to be where there are. A failed union was NAFTA between the USA, Mexico and Canada. As much as I'm a Pan-Africanists, I do understand that individual African countries should expend their energies on economic development in their own countries. The SADC as a regional body has had some success, with the exception of Zimbabwe.
Another point is also true to say that if 10 African states have dictorships, that does not mean the whole Africa is doing bad. That view is very EU/USA to lump all problems as one country called Africa (the continent). Just because Zimbabwe is falling apart does not mean, Africa's credibility is at stake!!!!! Nigeria, the most populous state was once the worst basket case in the African continent, but individual countries did not collapse, as predicated by some so-called African anlysists.
Phiri - I agree with everything you say. It is also worth remembering that European nations tore each others throats out over hundreds of years resulting in the death of millions upon millions before they were sufficiently shocked by their own behaviour to decide to sit down and work together. Lets us hope that Africa does not repeat this experience.
The general public may tend to lump Africa as one large sorry state of affairs, but I still see Western nations engaging with those countries that do want to progress. I haven't seen any sign of disengagement, have you?
Strange you label a united Africa "a figament of... imagination" considering we're witnessing, before our very eyes, Africans closing ranks over foriegn intervention.
There's a substantial difference between a "United States of Africa" and a united Africa; the former are the politics of the greedy, duplicitous and conniving West, whilst the latter is what caring people do in bids to fend off self-interested foreigners.
How in your wildest dreams can you ascribe the promoted concept of a United States of Africa as "the politics of the greedy, duplicitous West" - has Gadaffi been bought out by Washington and London?
Also - when you say we're witnessing before our very eyes Africans closing ranks are you discounting Botswana, Zambia, Tanzania, Kenya and Senegal from your view of Africa? Are you forgetting that the UN Security Council last month passed a unanimous resolution laying the blame for the political violence in Zimbabwe at the feet of Mugabe and that South Africa was a signatory to that resolution?
Does 'Selector' mean 'Selective Memory'?
LOL! To claim Africa is not uniting is to say that dis-unity at the UN means the UN is not united, that the United States of America, with their various and various views and standpoints are not united, that the European Union, with Ireland rejecting the Constitution and the only country to have a referendum, is not united.
For the sake of these discussions, unity means consensus and Africa is uniting and closing ranks by that definition.
Does katz mean catty and all claws, selfish and disloyal?
Never a straight answer from you is there?
Perhaps if the questions were straight in the first place. The issue in Zimbabwe isn't recent elections as the West would so gladly have the world believe with its age-old distraction techniques; the problem is land, stolen and injudiciously controlled by minority whites at the expense of majority, impoverished blacks. Perhaps you can advise on when that core issue will be sorted out and wrapped up, without international punitive actions.
There are many issues selector, and yes, I would imagine that one of them is the method of land reclamation (a rather stupid and shortsighted method at best) where it has been taken out of the control of the whites and put in the hands of not the impoverished black majority, but the ZANU-PF party faithful.
These recipients had (in the main) no agricultural knowledge and no skills which lent themselves to working the land, but of course Mugabe wanted the whites off the farms immediately (some of whom could have trained the new 'farmers') and so it was done ..... farm outputs near ceased and the food shortages and imports are further dragging the problems out.
I fail to see here how this is a big western plot when every part of the problem came from Mugabe's orders and decisions ..... could it be that you are saying these new farm owners are western puppet farmers, or even Mugabe himself, being influenced by the west into placing these non functional farmers on fertile land to destroy the Zimbabwean farming industry?
Selector, Katz is right! In as much as Diaspora Blacks/Africans would like to believe in a “United States of Africa” it does not exists or is it close. Sure, like you, I would like to believe that someday that will be possible. African nations only become independent the last 50 years or so. Most of African states are still trying to sort out what type of governance they prefer, they are still sorting out ethnicity and tribal issues etc. Rushing to create a United Africa is not wise at this time. African nations need to sort out their own economic and social, and cultural needs.
The African Union is slowly but surely making progress. Some of the progress is really on a regional basis. Such as removal of import duties, no passport requirements etc between Southern African countries. Also joint crime fighting measures are also helping. But, to expend a considerate time on an “united Africa” at this time is unwise. In future that will happen.
Phiri, Katz may be right about a "United States of Africa" and I entirely agree. Not only does it not exist, I argue that it should not exist. The notion of a United States of Africa was introduced by Katz.
I have pointed out that there's a substantial difference between a US of Africa and a "united Africa". The latter, through the AU, SADC and other local organs, is already happening.
Note the EU sucking up to an increasingly united Africa last December in search of long-term, strategic partnerships as reality starts to bite...
http://ec.europa.eu/development/services/events/eu-africa-summit-2007/index _en.cfm?CFID=1396682&CFTOKEN=17470201&jsessionid=24308cc4f8c0652c3145
I believe African leaders closed ranks on that occassion also and reminded Europe that if Mugabe wasn't invited and allowed to come along (despite the EU's pathetic travel ban), then none of them were coming.
You can not count your chickens before they are hatched. Americans thought they could use their long time rival, "Russia", to attack another rival but they got disappointed by the last minute show up (not last minute turn because Russia has always been against America). Mr Bush's term is ending miserably. A series of blows i would say. 1. Mugabe delayed results but they did nothing. (blow) 2. UN failed to declare Mugabe illegitimate. (blow) 3. Mugabe scoops a landslide win. (blow) 4. Iran displays power by playing war games and provoking but they can't do anything.(blow) 5. China rejects cutting carbon emmisions to half as said by g8. (blow) 6. UN failed to impose sanctions on Zimbabwe. (blow) The trend continues until Mr bush leaves office. Surely the time for dictatorship by America has ended. Well done Mugabe for total empowerment
I think God is clever. God is only one who can change things in Zimbabwe.The same God who made Mugabe a president of Zimbabwe is the same god who brought independence in Zimbabwe. The same God who created a self proclaimed traitor( Tsvangirai). If Tsvangirai was to be made President for Zimbabwe surely he should have been in power by now. But it's not going happen because MDC believe in matching and boycoting philosophy. MDC is a fully divided party with no sense of purpose party. What is MDC-T? and what is MDC-M?, What does this mean to anybody. I think thats what the western guys need to know and talk about. They believe that MDC should just jump to power like frogs. Their strategy is not working? They need change within change in their leadership and party.
An excellent post, imho, barbermat.
I found it suprising that the 'Christian' Westerners tried to riducule Mugabe when he said only God could remove him. As Christians they should have been able to accept that such sentiment is absolutely true.
And there are alot of christians out there praying that God does remove Mugabe. The fact you believe this sentiment to be true is only because Mugabe will never leave power until he decides its time. Even if 90% of the country voted against him, he would just rape, kill and murder to keep power, just like he is doing now. He's a disgrace.
Trust in the Father; only He knows what's best and why things are as they are.
A typical line used by the religious to control people. I wonder how many boys have heard that from priests as they get molested. You should always question those who tell you to follow them blindly, they obviously have something to hide. If there intentions were good, they would be open to questions.
There you go, like most, confusing organised religion with God.
Would you like to explain what you think the difference is?
The difference between religion and God, are you serious? For starters, the former is man-made whilst the latter isn't. Secondly, the former divides to the point of war whilst the latter unites in Love, etc, etc, etc...
The problem isn't God, it's religion.
As for, "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, give a man a god and he will starve to death while praying for a fish".... God helps those who help themselves.
not forgetting the problem of human nature trying to explain what it doesnt understand through a higher power. And the need for a purpose and something to belong too. Aaah but is false hope better than no hope at all?
I think you're confusing accepting God and nature with questioning. There is nothing to explain, one simply accepts. The Buddhists teach us that the beginning of wisdom is accepting that we know nothing.
A quick question for you here Selector, where do you get your information about God from?
Timberwolf, God is all around. As you may already know, all you have to do is open your heart and let Him in.
No, I didn't say how do you know about God, I said where do you get your information about him, because from what I've seen of your posts we seem to have very different ideas on God ..... yours seems to support the oppression in Zimbabwe by proxy from your words.
you stated that God helps those who help themselves ..... so what about those who were murdered by Mugabe, the ones who couldn't help themselves, are they irrelevant to God's plans? Why would a God support the murder and suffering that has gone on when He is apparently the one who can stop it simply by removing Mugabe from power (in his words and yours)
If your God is the same as mine, and I suspect that He's not, then I am surprised that He still has a living following left.
Maybe and maybe not, but my view of God is that of a benevolent being, not one that would allow the Holocaust in WW2, or the massacres that Pol Pot carried out, or coming right up to date, Mugabe's systematic dissection of Zimbabwe and the people therein.
Also, you still have not answered the question as to where you get your information about God ..... I would hazard a guess at the Bible, would I be right on this?
The Holy Bible, the Holy Qur'an and the Holy Torah, amongst a mass of other Holy scriptures, all say there is only one God. I am happy to accept that there is only one, as are many religions and their followers. That said, I deduce that there is no problem with the one, jealous God and reason that it's religion that divides.
I have also already said that I am more accepting of God and nature than some others appear to be with all their questioning of the Almighty and the world around them in which you are relatively insignificant and over which they have next to no control. Some call the questioning conceit whilst some others call the acceptance humility.
in fact, I'm going to ask both of you the $1,000,000 question,Selector and Awt, what religions are you?
Timberwolf, I thought I'd already said, I don't do religion, I do God.
So who wrote the holy scriptures? Let me guess they just appeared?
In which case by your own words your view of God is devisive and flawed because it is driven by texts produced within a religious framework ..... If you were to take the religion out of your view and truly open your eyes and heart you would be looking at the true God, not just the xenophobic aspects of Him taught by any religion. There would be no Bible, Qur'an, Torah, Book of Mormon .... so your reasoning that religion divides is true, but a religion driven God is what you see.
Personally I don't put much faith in the so called holy books because they are, like any text, written from one point of view which makes them biased ..... look past the bias and you'll see just how far away from Him the world is.
Oh look, a discussion on human suffering has brought us to a debate on God. I think that's a good thing.
Using the Holy scriptures was only me producing examples the one God testimony. Indeed, I have lebelled religion the problem and not God and equally point out that that when you get back to Amaraic texts, there's little if any difference between the three religions cited. Not unsurprisingly, Amaraic is an ancient African tongue....
"Personally I don't put much faith in the so called holy books because they are, like any text, written from one point of view which makes them biased ..... look past the bias and you'll see just how far away from Him the world is".
I tend to agree. Which brings us neatly to the 'nature or nurture' debate. Are we taught about God or do we know about God. I say our notions of right and wrong, justice and injustice, God and goodness are inherent and given by nature... but now we really are off-topic.
not really that far off topic, because the point I'm making here is that Mugabe with his comment of 'Only God can remove me from office' is arrogance of the highest order, and bringing it into the real world where his actions have been far less than acceptable (I think you will agree) in the light of what we are discussing here, then his comment must have been made with a religious overtone, because there's no way it could have been on the divine side.
Reminds me of when Bush said that God had told him to go into Iraq. What a load of bollocks. I'm sure if there was a God, he sure would have a few words for Mugabe and his henchmen about humanity.
Bush made a claim that cannot be proved and, to all intents and purposes sounds like a lie, for the Lord is not a warmonger.
Mugabe stated a fact; only God can remove him. Mugabe didn't suggest that God would not remove him. For all we know, in His wisdom, the Lord may do just that.
Bush may have lied when he said god told him to invade Iraq; however proving that lie is about as provable as the god which told him to do it.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"~Voltaire(Voltaire seems to be the very zeitgeist at the moment, or at least I think so).
Then we've come full circle. If one accepts that God runs things, as he does, Mugabe may have be arrogant but he simply stated a fact.
I wouldnt call it a fact. I'm pretty sure if the British or US really really wanted too, they could take him out. Saddam had a much bigger army remember. But you never heard Saddam say only God could remove him. But then I guess that if the British or Americans took Mugabe out, it was God's idea in the first place...
awt, you're not getting in. Saddam was killed; it was his time. Should Mugabe step down, die or be killed, it will be his time because it is God's will. There's is no escaping God's will.
IF everything that happens is gods will, then why does your god willfully murder thousands of innocent people around the world? Why did he drop the bombs on nagasaki and hiroshima, why did he kill hundreds of thousands with a tsunami, why does he rape so many women? Its all Gods will....
No, not in the eyes of most here, because the west seems to be an entity that exists outside the realms of God ..... if the west do remove him, then it will be seen as the great western plotwork of the devil, God won't even enter into the idea except as an opposing counterpoint.
This is where the God argument fails, because the comments on God's plan don't remain consistent, if something goes to plan, good or bad, then it is claimed as God's work ..... yet if something goes awry in that plan, as long as it's done by people who are percieved as the 'wrong' people, then it's the work of the devil in the west.
Personally I'm an Agnostic ..... which is basically open minded and unreligious. I don't believe God has a master plan, we create the problems and it's up to us to get out of them, and until proven different, I don't see any evidence of a plan ..... faith can only get you so far - it doesn't stop hunger, bullets or pain.
And therein lies what I earlier labelled conceit. For better or for worse, all things under the sun and beyond are God's works.
But that isn't conceit, it is the way things work ..... you could have a choice whether to take or save a life and then justify it after the event saying that 'it is God's will'.
That line has been the driving force behind most of the worst atrocities in history ..... The Crusades, The Inquisition, and plenty more besides, therefore it is quite clear that the people who are most likely to use that line are the least likely to believe it, or to follow God's strictures.
There is no way to prove or disprove the existence of God, or whether or not He influences us directly, but the one thing that is perfectly evident is that if He allows this level of suffering in what we claim to be His people, then he is a less than perfect God ..... maybe we all ought to follow this lead and just 'let things happen', as Aleister Crowley said 'Do as you will be the whole of the law', because if you are saying that all this is for a divine reason, then someone up there needs an appointment with Freud to sort His priorities out. What have the Zimbabwean (and other innocent oppressed nations around the world) people done to deserve this?
If you believe them, then how many of the commandments has Mugabe broken? In which case he's working contrary to God's teachings, and we get back to the fact that he is an illegitimate ruler.
"If one accepts that God runs things, as he does(as you accept he does)".
Aye there’s the rub. The being known as, "god" is a perfect entity and yet all around us is imperfection, despair and horror. The very world in which we live negates any belief in a benevolent, omnipotent and perfect god. The, “god” people credit with everything is guilty of depraved indifference. Something which doesn’t exist is pretty much identical to something which is unprovable.
When good things happen it's all, "Praise the lord" and yet when bad things happen he moves in mysterious ways his wonders to perform(or it's satans fault or mans fault because he gave us free will). There is no downside for, "god" he's in a win-win situation.
“God”, is basically a being which man created in his own image to stave off the fear of death, feel a little less insignificant in the vastness of the universe and deny that humanity is the result of a cosmological accident. I don’t know who said it but I’m pretty sure it was Einstein, “If, “god” didn’t already exist man would have created him”. Let’s face it it’s easier to believe in a, “god” and all the stuff that comes with it, the afterlife etc, or you can think critically and accept your place in the universe.
Who told you that? There might be 3. Or none. But if your only god can allow the murders of innocents through the hands of Mugabe, then thats a god I want nothing to do with, and probably a relationship you should yourself question.
"all you have to do is open your heart and let Him in. " Selector, where did you find that out?
Sorry to anyone who has heard my favorite quote in the past but here it comes again:
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, give a man a god and he will starve to death while praying for a fish".
Gentlemen, my belief is that God gives every human being a free will. Man can choose either to do right or to do wrong - hence why man is responsible for his actions because of that free will.
The reason for the veto is that China is getting cheap minerals and exports from Zimbabwe, very much like the West did under white rule. There is no difference. As for Russia it too gets perks from the Mugabe govt and is opposed to USA on most things relating to Africa. This is all at the expense of the ordinary Zimbabwean, and enriches Mugabe and his thugs. The right thing to do is for all the countries inculding South Africa to stop bank rolling Mugabe, stop milking Zimbabwe's riches and to let true democracy take place. However while Mugabe and ZANUpf is around thats not going to happen nor is it until Africa stands up for good governance. Once that happens Arica will not be open to the abuses of the rest of the world, including Nigerian oil that goes to the USA, nor Somalie oil etc etc, The west should stop playing "divide and abuse". But while Mugabe is around Zim is not going anywhere except to the dogs.
It may not be surprising that, as befits any mad dictator, President Mugabe is now the proud owner of a palatial £4.5 million mansion in Harare and a similarly lavish country hideaway, each fitted with the latest electronic security systems, including anti-aircraft missiles. But why should all this have been provided for him by the People's Republic of China? The explanation lies in a deal struck in 2005 whereby Mr Mugabe handed over to China his country's mineral rights, including the world's second largest reserves of platinum, worth £250 billion. In return for allowing the Chinese to cart away more than half a billion pounds' worth of minerals a year, Mr Mugabe not only makes a vast personal fortune for himself and his henchmen, but is given all the arms he needs to keep his criminal regime in power, including guns, jet fighters and military vehicles.
Hey indie i think you should become the President of Zimbabwe. You have such a 'VAST' knowledge on all things Zimbabwean - you have no equal. YOU should be the first NON ZIMBABWEAN PRESIDENT because you know it all!
Thanks Kuba. I have to agree. I mean, it cant be too difficult at all to do a better job than the incumbant. Can you imagine! Nobody getting beaten or murdered for who the decide to vote for, an economy that is worth something, no corruption inthe government, productive farms run by zimbabwean farmers and not politicians and Zimbabwean minerals not being sold off to China in exchange for a mansion for myself. Would be great wouldnt it!
Right on Indie. China is basically throwing Mugabe a few dollars to fund his mansions and such so he will smile while China gives it to him hard.
These Mugabe followers are gloating that China and Russia vetoed because they support Mugabe. Little do they know that the real reason they did so is simply to spite America and Britain.
and who doesn't want to spite America and Britain.
The people getting food and medical aid/relief.
The people that receive food and medical aid/relief from them!
It is quiet possible that China and Russia do not want to give the UK and USA a free license to start lying and justify a military invation of Zimbabwe. This is fresh from the foolishly carried out invation of Iraq. The Iraq lies and invasion have made China and Russia to be more careful about letting the USA and UK justify their own self interests.
Sanctions would have made Mugabe more ruthless and really ruined efforts for a more peaceful dialogue between the warying political parties of Zimbabwe.
I personally resent the bully of veto-power excised by the 5 permanent security council members. It is important that Africa fight hard about this excersis in bullism!