This is an interesting topic and a pertinent comment. True Mugabe and his thugs (the 5th brigade trained by North Korea) created a reign of terror in Matabeleland torturing , killing , raping thousands Matabelees , the exact numbers will never be known .... It shows how tribal African societies are.-These days it's politically incorrect to say so but it's a fact . Ex colonial powers always have to take the blame for whatever happens in Subsaharan Africa and African chiefs of States will always take it on colonial past to divert the opinion of there failure , ineficency and corruption. -Whenever there are Tribal wars in Africa diguised as political paties followed by European intervention , European nations will be accused of mendling in private State matters and if no intervention takes place European powers will be accused by African chiefs of States by not taking responsabilities towards there ex-Colonies-Where one drow's the line?- Now it's Christmas in a lot of African States, China is pourring huge amounts of money in Africa and no questions asked !!! Where is the money going ? Out of Africa and definetly not where it should go that is Education , health care , transport , clean water , agriculture and the list goes on .... Zimbabwe is turning into a cemitery and nothing is done to get rid of this Hitler's like Tyrant due to this nonesense approach on African politics . It's going to cost billions of dollars to get Zimbabwe not on it's feets but just on it's knees .... What a SHAME

This is an interesting topic and a pertinent comment. True Mugabe and his thugs (the 5th brigade trained by North Korea) created a reign of terror in Matabeleland torturing , killing , raping thousands Matabelees , the exact numbers will never be known .... It shows how tribal African societies are.-These days it's politically incorrect to say so but it's a fact . Ex colonial powers always have to take the blame for whatever happens in Subsaharan Africa and African chiefs of States will always take it on colonial past to divert the opinion of there failure , inefficency and corruption. -Whenever there are Tribal wars in Africa diguised as political paties followed by European intervention , European nations will be accused of meddling in private State matters and if no intervention takes place European powers will be accused by African chiefs of States by not taking responsabilities towards there ex-Colonies-Where one draw's the line?- Now it's Christmas in a lot of African States, China is pourring huge amounts of money in Africa and no questions asked !!! Where is the money going ? Out of Africa and definetly not where it should go that is Education , health care , transport , clean water , agriculture and the list goes on .... Zimbabwe is turning into a cemitery and nothing is done to get rid of this Hitler's like Tyrant due to this nonesense approach on African politics . It's going to cost billions of dollars to get Zimbabwe not on it's feets but just on it's knees .... What a SHAME

Peter Craig and Port Louis, attempt’s to invoke “it is not a white/black issue” is hypocrisy at the highest level and a lot of self-righteousness on their part. The examples provided offer a window to see how these white Anglo men think and Function. The Bishop Muzorewa’s Prime Ministership failed because white “Rhodesians” could not accept black rule or give up and share military power. Bishop Muzorewa was sincerely, while Anglo whites were never really sincere. The shona’s who supported the bishop will never forgive white Anglos…..for that!!!

The cleansing of the Ndebele by Robert Mugabe and the silence of Britain to condemn Mugabe is the ultimate reason why “race” is an issue and I will explain. While the Ndebele’s who are black suffered Britain was quiet, while white farmers cried “foul” started one of the loudest cries against Mugabe. The Ndebele for that will never forgive you…

To crown it all white Anglos totally took over 80% of arable land in the then Rhodesia. Why on earth would any right thinking Zimbabwean ever..ever trust a white Anglo man/women? Yes, this is not a “white/black” issue it is certainly an issue for Zimbabweans regarding white Anglos. After all it is not the Swedes or Germans who did damage to Zimbabwe!

I totally agree with Phiri This Paragraph says it all “Yes, this is not a “white/black” issue it is certainly an issue for Zimbabweans regarding white Anglos. After all it is not the Swedes or Germans who did damage to Zimbabwe!”

Dragging the culprits by their Nationality from the behind the phrase ( white) often used as a cloaking term must now be done more often. ,Far too long has some European Nationals committed grave acts against none European countries and their peoples and proceed to hide within the bosom of Innocent Europeans countries for protection Are the past predatorily types in European sharpening their knives to butcher up Africa again? Africa is sinks beneath a European yoke, she weeps she bleeds and each new day a gash is added to her bleeding wounds…. May her Gods rise up and protect her

"May her Gods rise up and protect her" May her Gods give Africa the same sense of unity that the Europeans have used for centuries to invade and dominate other countries. Once they have this, they will have the protection that they need against foreign predators. Unfortunately too many Africans seem to be caught up in their little group, i.e. tribe, clan, etc and not enough into cultural unity as the Europeans are. One need only to observe how the Europeans (+ white America) united against Robert Mugabe once he started asserting the African rights to own and control their own resources (he wasn't making any claims to land in London or Bristol but in the land of his ancestors). All the western European countries united with Britain (the Anglos) to destroy this suddenly-turned African "bad guy" (until then he was the epitome of how African leaders should be, i.e., "don't mess with the status quo"). He became this "brutal dictator, etc., etc." because he demanded that the former white colonizers live up to the agreement that they had signed onto in order to stop a war that they were about to lose outright, thanks to countries like China and Russia (who had their own interests). Bottom line, while it is the British who created this specific problem, they have since enlisted a solid western European bloc on their side, thus it is a "white/black" issue.

dLoser, you really have no idea. I really get sick and tired of correcting you and pointing out your racism. You mention (+ white america). Its the governments policies you need to be concerned with, adding racial overtones to your comments just points out the racist that you are.

I think you'll find that if Mugabe had a free and fair election and the people of Zimbabwe werent beaten and murdered during his campaign of intimidation to greedily keep power, the west would have nothing to say.

The land issue has gone, past, and I think you'll find most people in the west arent concerned that the land has been past to Zimbabweans, apart issue is the corruption that was involved in giving it to mugabe's cronies and not the deserving farmers that could have helped the country produce the food it needed.

I think you'll find the only people who keep bringing up the land issue are people like yourself and Mugabe who still need to find someone to blame for the ZANU-PF's mismanagement of the economy. No one from the west talks about it anymore, so why not move on and start trying to find a solution, rather than looking for someone white to blame because of your own racism.

aWorthless, You're the one who is clueless here. First of all, (right after I don't give a rats what you are sick and tired of), white racism, which is so pervasive in the world, is not My racism since I'm not white. Secondly one does not become a racist by calling attention to past and ongoing racism, I don't care how many racist try to avoid the truth by making this bogus accusation. Thirdly, if whites do not wish to cease their racist acts, I certainly have a right to call them on it as I chose. As for the continued lie that you post about Mr. Mugabe beating and murdering people, you're beginning to look stupider and stupider every day as the media is daily pointing out and admitting that many of these so-called beatings and murders were fabricated. Most of it was for-hire stuff often engineered by NGO people under the pay of you know who (that's right, the West). Also, if Mr. Mugabe wished to distribute the land to 300,000 of his indigenous cronies it is his right to do so. After all, he was the one who for years lead the struggle to re-gain the land. If the standing British government had the right to give the land to ONE of its cronies (Cecil Rhodes) in the 1890s certainly the Zimbabwean government of the 2000s has every right to distribute it as they see fit, don't you agree? As for this nonsense about "the land,past, and ....", that is total BS and you know it. Not even you are dumb enough to believe that. So why don't you stop trying to convince yourself that this is the case. Finally, the new Zimbabwean farmers will start to produce the food that the country needs as soon as someone figures out a way around the sanctions and internal sabotage that is now undermining their efforts. Maybe, after the Olympics are over, Zimbabwe's long-time friend China will send in the help that they need in doing that, especially since you've already stated in one of your other posts that they bought the mineral rights of Zimbabwe for 250 billion dollars. Certainly they are going to be sending in their people to manage and help operate these resources. This means that they going to be needing a lot of farm produce to supply the Chinese restaurants that will be spring up all over Zimbabwe. Thus the food producing problem will be resolved, leaving one less thing for you to worry about.

seeing as you are all and one fond of recalling events from eons past to prop up your prejudices I might as well follow suit...Were the zulus and xhosas living peacfully as neighbours prior to the colonialists arriving in africa??? Were the ndebele living in loving and understanding communities with the mashona?? the sioux and the cheyenne were the best of mates??? the ethiopians were at peace with...oh why do I bother. In your guys' world the whole world that had not been touched by the white man lived in blissful harmony till the day the white settlers landed and began schooling the natives in the art of slaughtering one another!! surprising how the natives took to this almost instantly and never looked back!!!some of the stuff you state actually makes sense but you then go and spoil it by making these sweeping statements laced with the language of racism..and that is unfortunate!

turnex, the shona and ndebeles live side by side. In my matebele grandmothers village, shonas live there as well. It is very rare in Africa to have different tribes share the same village. Zimbabweans will in the near future rewrite the foolish idiotic history of Zimbabwe which is currently written by "old" white minority racists Rhodesians.

What I see on wikipedia Zimbabwe is typical of white minority (< 1%) attempting to justify white foolish Rhodesia rule. I guess it is still a white "Rhodesia"/ main stream Zimbabwean when it comes to racial issues.

You are just trying to distort African history, with theories that are out dated. For your own information white anglos and irish also do not get along. Scottish (are fighting for independnce) against anglos. The Wales also do not consider themselves english. Now if the so-called "civilized" races have divisions, why should you exspect anything less. Thank God white Rhodesians are now down to less than 50,000!

Phiri...I read some of your posts and nod my head in agreement..even if you are using agnry language to support your argument..But you are scraping the barrel of incredulity here if you are trying to paint a picture of tribal cooperation between the zulus, shonas, xhosa, hutus, tutsi, ndebeles prior to white folk setting foot in Africa. We know the chinese were locked in tribal wars with the japs..the erroneously named American Red Indians were scalping each other long before Columbus sailed west. Even the very white folk eg English you despise so much were fighting at any given time either the french, scots, irish..etc. So while it may soothe your bruised conscience to blame "evil racist white minority rhodesians" for all africa's ills...the truth is not as simplistic a picture as you carelessly paint.

turnex, the shona and ndebeles live side by side. In my matebele grandmothers village, shonas live there as well. It is very rare in Africa to have different tribes share the same village. Zimbabweans will in the near future rewrite the foolish idiotic history of Zimbabwe which is currently written by "old" white minority racists Rhodesians.

What I see on wikipedia Zimbabwe is typical of white minority (< 1%) attempting to justify white foolish Rhodesia rule. I guess it is still a white "Rhodesia"/ main stream Zimbabwean when it comes to racial issues.

You are just trying to distort African history, with theories that are out dated. For your own information white anglos and irish also do not get along. Scottish (are fighting for independnce) against anglos. The Wales also do not consider themselves english. Now if the so-called "civilized" races have divisions, why should you exspect anything less. Thank God white Rhodesians are now down to less than 50,000!

Phiri, I thought Rhodesia was no more. If you regard all people who were born during Southern Rhodesian colonial time as "Rhodesians," then that makes all Zimbabweans born before independence Rhodesians too. If YOU were born pre independence then you are Rhodesian too or are you just being hateful and racist to the white folk remaining in Zimbabwe.

kjrs...as I have mentioned here before I am Southern Rhodesian!!! And yes you are right in your analysis..that is why Phiri has gone to cry in his beer!!!

dLoser, You surprise me. You really do. How can someone be so brainwashed and stupid? I didnt think humans could be as stupid as what you are.

Do you seriously believe there was no violence at all during the Zimbabwean election process? I think that clearly just shows how much credibility you have here. About the same amount as fish. If there was no violence, how come the SADC, AU, UN and pretty much anyone that saw what happened in Zimbabwe say the election was neither free nor fair? Why was there such a massive turn around in the number of votes? Purely through intimidation. There is no other way to explain it. And if you try, you're just clasping at straws and making up lies. So I will let other people judge you on your stance that there was no violence in Zimbabwe. But from here, you're just plain dumb, stupid, uneducated and a fool.

As for NGO's, I wish people like you would see how much good the NGO's do for Africa, how many mouths they feed and continue to feed on a daily basis. Yet you complain about it. How about a thanks for all the good work you do for feeding our people after our government has destroyed the productivity of our farms? How about a thanks?!

And as I said before, and I will say again becase you are so dumb you just dont seem to take things in. I have no problem whatsoever with land being distributed to Zimbabweans. I have a problem with large chunks of land being given to ministers who have no idea how to farm, take the status associated with being a land owner, but then fail to deliver food, resulting in the problem we have in Zim today, that there isnt enough food on the table. Give the land to the farmers that can farm, and let the politicians be politicians. You wouldnt give a fishing rod to a plumber, so why give land to a politician?

And you make a point that the British gave land to Cecil J Rhodes, which I can say I believe was completely the wrong thing to do. Yet you want Mugabe to do the same thing, give the land to the wrong people. You are so hypercritical its funny. You say the british government gave land to whoever they wanted too,so the zim government shoudl be able to do the same. So you are saying that its ok for the Zim government to behave in a way you dont like, because its in your favour. Thats just so hypercritical, its rediculous.

As for the land program being done with. OF course it has been... the west havent said anything about it for years. They simply dont care anymore. The only people that bring the land reform program up is Mugabe to paint his little picture of the British being an enemy and this is why they are an enemy. The british have long moved on.

As for the sanctions, well, the government only has themselves to blame dont they. IF they could hold free and fair democratic elections, and respect the result, then there would be no need for sanctions now would there. You cant expect money for free now can you. Democracy is required. Seems pretty fair to me.

As for China being your long time friend, dont be rediculous. They couldnt care less about Zimbabwe. All they want is the minerals. Look what happened in Sudan. Sudan supplies 6% of China's oil. China provided them with arms, fighter planes etc, after an arms embargo was put in place leading to the genocide at the hands of the sudanese president. The were going to do the same to Zimbabwe if it wasnt for the good people of South Africa stopping the shipment. Saved a genocide in Zim I believe. Mugabe's done it before remember, so theres nothing stopping him doing it again. So trust me, China is not a friend of the people of Zimbabwe. The just want the minerals.

And its funny how you fail to comment on the foreign ownership of zims minerals at the hand of China. Remember Mugabe saying that the the MDC wanted to sell out Zim and give the minerals to foreign ownership... now look at this! Mugabe is the biggest sell-out of all! And you are nothing but a hypercrit in the worst sense. You hate things when they arent in your favour, but as soon as it works for you, its ok. Talk about selfish!

Seriously I cannot believe someone can be so stupid and brainwashed as what you are. Just look at the facts dLoser and stop believing only what you want to believe!

Awt. Everytime you mention the word China you are shivering, sweating,scared. Refer to my other post about a table analogy. Hands off Africa's pride. I think you should concentrate on the Olympics there. No Hooligans like we see in at the Premiership League.

Not sure why you think I am english. you couldnt be further from the truth. The football hooligans are sure a disgrace though. And not concerned about china. Just pointing out the hypocracy of Mugabe.

This debate has moved away from the main concern, the future of Zimbabwe as a free, just and democraric society.

One thing is clear: tyrant Mugabe did not deliver in 28 years and it's not now that, in coalition, he will be able to play with magic.

Murderer Mugabe should be cornered to pass on the reign to MDC under an executive PM. Nothing less will work.

I refuse to believe my analysis that Mbeki is that much naive. Why did he privilege the talks when 13 MDC MPs along with more than 500 MDC supporters are detained under Mugabe's order? Why when the MDC chief negotiator is under a very serious charge before court concerning undermining state security. Where is the level playing field.

I tend to believe that tyrant Mugabe is bent on also fooling Mbeki about a possible agreement. Anything less than an MDC executive President should spur the civil society to pressurize for Mugabe and cronies to be prosecuted for confiscating power illegally. Should the courts fail to act, the streets should then take over to boot them out.

Once a new power is established on promoting freedom, justice and democracy, thorny issues about who did wrong to Zimbabwe could go before a truth & reconciliation commission.

Right now, circumstances demand we concentrate on getting Mugabe out. It does not mean that on the advent of Tsvangirai becoming an executive PM that honey and milk will start flowing afresh in abundance. The public should continue to be vigilant to ask for the highest standards of good governance.

One person and his party alone cannot effect meaningful change without the public exercising its right to press for transparency and accountability. The Mugabe mentality that will continue during some time after the ushering of a new government will have to be tackled firmly.

prem...you are so right in your observation that the discussion has moved away from its initial topic..reason is we constantly get sidetracked by the likes of akafunnyboy and dloser who when unable to defend their position resort to taking unwarranted pot shots and name calling of the worst racist kind on here and naturally we feel obliged to respond. with people like this it is not surprising zimbabwe is in the mess it is today...whilst zimbabwe is burning they are looking back hundreds of years for a scapegoat whilst the perp is staring them in the face!!!!

Prem, you are not going to dictate how discussions are going to proceed. If the discussions are good, they should go on. Your comments are marginal and tend to be hyperbolic. You sound like a good Ol'd Southern Rhodesian, who in their minds are still trying to lecture black servants. At least respect the democracy of the internet for now!!!

Turnex, it was very obvious that you are a "Rhodesia". A good witchdoctor, in Harare would rid you of all that "Southern Rhodesia" poison or choose to see a physcologist. Turnex you are angry and defeated. However, I do respect you as a fellow Zimbabwean, but not "Rhodesian".

Is this a white/black issue? Yes, if it is white anglo Rhodesians. No, if both black and white can agree to disagree when their views diverge (which on Zimbabwe is to be expected).

“Not just a Black-White Struggle” states the author, and he is right. While this is obvious to any serious, and even minimally educated observer, there are once again racist rants against any one or country that is not black . . . unless, of course you’re Chinese. I actually had to laugh when the U.S.A. is refered to as “white”. Yes, statistically speaking the whites outnumber the blacks. But these racists ought to note that the country with the highest number of blacks is Nigeria, and the number 2 position is The U.S. That’s right, unless you are Nigerian, we have more blacks here than in your country or any other, and I have never heard of a single one who supports Mugabe, Zanu-PF, or any of their cohorts. It has nothing to do with color, it has everything to do with character. (A paraphrase of Dr. M.L. King Jr., who was a Great man, a Black man, and an American!) For Awt, Turnex, and Prem (otherwise known as The Realists), I’ll give an example as to why we should expect such lunacy from the moronic side. They remind me of chickens, and I will tell you why. (True story, by the by): Several years back I bought small farm in (very) rural Georgia, USA. On the third night there my wife called me to window in the middle of the night ~ there was a fire raging a couple miles down the road ~ a neighbors place. I jumped in the car and went as fast as I could on the dirt roads, to find my neighbors chicken house on fire. He was an old man & didn’t have a big operation (only 10,000 or so laying hens), so I jumped in with other neighbors to put out the fire. Then I noticed the chickens. During the day if a dog waked within a hundred yards they’d make such a noise that you’d want to plug your ears. But this was night, and as the fire raged I would see chickens, with part of their body on fire, just walking around as though nothing was happening, until they were put out or burnt to death, without a sound. They didn’t know any better ~ They were so mind-numbingly set in their ways they didn’t see their world burning down around them . . or even notice that they, too, were part of the blaze.

Authors above. Don't try to exercise and perfect your recent obtained jounalism qualifications on us blacks. You are trying to turn this important African story against us. One wonders whether you are not just being groomed as to jump to anything to write about. The Matebele issue has a true side on it. I said once that Pres R Mugabe should write a book right away so we have truth of all on Zimbabwe in print. Please History is in school curriculum. I have been taught about Jan Van Reebeek, I want the other side now.Fair

Authors above. Don't try to exercise and perfect your recent obtained jounalism qualifications on us blacks. You are trying to turn this important African story against us. One wonders whether you are not just being groomed as to jump to anything to write about. The Matebele issue has a true side on it. I said once that Pres R Mugabe should write a book right away so we have truth of all on Zimbabwe in print. Please History is in school curriculum. I have been taught about Jan Van Reebeek, I want the other side now.Fair

Aficabynature, since when does Mugabe tell the truth? Mugabe is a con artist.

He told the truth from beginning of his presidency. If not, anyway, Is the truth not obviously seen on the landscapes of Zimbabwe or in the policies of the Labour party in the house of commons? Why don't other people than come out with their truth? Truth must be told. Pres R Mugabe welcomed Ms Heidi Holand for an interview requested by her for her book whereby she even misinterpreted his words. He did not deny her access to his office. It was not a press conference but a sincere talk between Pres R Mugabe and Ms Heidi. The truth was told and it should remain that. He only needs to bring it in print and book form to file in the libraries for African future generations. That is all what we are thirsty of. Too much noise was going on and on. Suddenly, the world seems to respect the talks in SA, except those who are itching to wish bad outcomes.

I agree with one thing you said there ABN .... RGM does indeed tell the truth about as much as the Labour party do, or any other political party in Britain.

The misconception you have of politics is that it is based on truth, while this is not the case ..... it's based on half truths, massaged figures, scapegoats and telling the people what they want to hear (in some cases outright lies), and the current UK government have proved themselves to be as adept at this as Mugabe has always been ..... under both Blair and Brown.

Now we get to the difference between RGM and the sitting UK government ..... I assume you didn't hear about all those people murdered and beaten in Milton Keynes because they voted Conservative? No? Neither did I, because it didn't happen ..... or parts of Manchester being burned to the ground because they were Liberal strongholds? No? Funny thing, because that didn't happen either. Yet when it happens in Zimbabwe and even the SADC and AU acknowledge that it has happened, certain people start trying to hail him as a hero all over again ..... he lost his halo in the 1980s and it isn't coming back.