Some questions for Cde George:

"First, the US State Department again rejected the sovereign mandate of Zimbabwe's voters in the 2005 parliamentary elections which all the participating observers declared free and fair." - George, you have overlooked to mention that neither SADC's nor the AU's observer missions found the 2008 presidential run to be free and fair. Any reason for that small oversight?

"Second, Bernard Kouchner for the European Union presidency; Gordon Brown for the British Labour government; and Condoleezza Rice and Jendayi Fraser for the US government -- all stated in June 2008 that the only government of Zimbabwe they were willing to recognise was one led by Tsvangirai" - could that be because the results of the only election in 2008 that was declared to be free and fair showed Tsvangirai to have out polled Mugabe?

"Third, the same leaders sought to force Zimbabwe to cancel the presidential run-off, even though it was required by our Constitution. They wanted to force the Zimbabwe Electoral Commission and the voters to revert to the indecisive election results that gave the opposition a slight edge over the liberation movement, Zanu-PF." - wrong, Western consensus generally was that it was disappointing that Tsvangirai did not contest the run off.

"Fourth, when 80 percent of the presidential run-off vote went to President Mugabe, the same white powers denounced the result and demanded the installation of Tsvangirai of the MDC as President of Zimbabwe."- if Mugabe won 80% of the vote in a single candidate election, who got the rest? A ghost candidate for the ghost names on the electoral roll?

"Fifth, they successfully recruited at least three leaders in Sadc to agitate for the position of the UK, US and EU -- that is to urge Sadc and the AU not to recognise President Robert Mugabe as the legitimately elected head of state of Zimbabwe. It took the firm resolutions of AU and Sadc summits to silence those three heads of state." - they don't sound silenced to me, unless Cde George you are including Levy. In any event; 'at least 3'SADC countries - perhaps you could expand on that?

"Sixth, and finally, the UK and US manipulated the G8 and the UN Security Council to invoke Chapter Seven of the UN Charter against Zimbabwe in order to obtain UN permission for a military invasion of Zimbabwe which the US and the UK had been contemplating since the days of their Iraq invasion in 2003." - I am sure that China and Russia are surprised to learn that they have been manipulated. By the way; The Herald has somehow missed the chance to critizise Russia for interferring in the internal affairs of a sovereign country, namely Georgia. No doubt you will get around to that when time permits, or do your principles of non-interferrence only extend West?

Of course the 2008 elections were unfair, the country had been under a economic deadlock for years by the West.

Tsvangirai didn't contest the run-off because he was likely to lose and withdrawing from the run-off was his only way to allow him to pretend he won. You obviously don't know anything about Zimbabwe otherwise you'd know that Tsvangirai was still on the ballot, as obligated by the constitution. Tsvangirai won that other 20%.

China and Russia weren't manipulated, YOU have been manipulated. And are you seriously going to bring up Georgia? This isn't about Russian intervention, this is about Western intervention.

It's just so sad to sit here powerless to what my government is doing to Zimbabwe...

You see to so easily forget that the 80% that Mugabe won in the run off, a gain of some 37% was purely due to the violence, murder and intimidation of opposition supporters, and the forced votes of so many. If you for one moment even consider the 80% a true reflection of the peoples will as accurate, this simply shows how stupid, idiotic, irrational and brainwashed you are.

Why do you support and condone a man who has so blatantly beaten, murdered, raped and tortured your fello Zimbabweans to keep power?

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As I said "If you for one moment even consider the 80% a true reflection of the peoples will as accurate, this simply shows how stupid, idiotic, irrational and brainwashed you are".

Tsvangarai pulled out 4 days before the run off 'election' saving countless lives at the hands of Mugabe thugs. A true leader of the people.

You're not suggesting that Mugabe, the butcher of Harare, responsible for tens of thousands of deaths of Zimbabweans is a better leader of the people are you? Dear oh dear.

Tsvangirai pulled out to "save lives"? Is that right? Then his recent call for new elections means... what?

He's literally asking for the same kind of violence once more because he couldn't finish the job (and by finish the job I mean create a justification for a Western invasion) in the run-off. The guy is completely contradictory in everything he does. A good leader would have signed the generous deal presented by Mbeki and patiently await the next election after the economic crisis has subsided. The problem is, Tsvangirai NEEDS to economic crisis because that's his entire campaign strategy.

Personally, I'm not against new elections, on the condition that the sanctions be lifted months in advance giving Zimbabwe enough time to recover. I'm confident the right person will be elected.

I think you'll find that Tsvangarai would like elections in a controlled peaceful environment where people can vote freely without the fear that vote may cost their life. If he wanted to promote a "western invasion" then he would have stayed in for the run off. But seriously, you must be pretty deluded to even consider the west invading Zimbabwe.

Under these free and fair conditions, its pretty clear that Tsvangarai would win an election.

You really are stupid though. Why do you think its ok for Mugabe and his thugs to unleash waves of violence on the people of Zimbabwe?

And have you seen the deal presented by Mbeki? No, you havent, so stop making stupid assumptions that its generous. In reality, Mugabe shouldnt even be there in the first place, this is something the whole world knows.

Another thing, how can you expect the west to lift sanctions and trade with you and to respect you when your government beats and murders its own people to keep power. By doing so would only condone this barbaric behavior.

Tsvangirai hasn't done anything to prove to me that he has the interests of Zimbabwe at heart, so no I will not have faith in what he says wants. Everything he has done since the first election has been meant to cause instability as he and his party regularly broke Zimbabwe laws to try to appear to the Western media as the victim. Why change now?

"Under these free and fair conditions, its pretty clear that Tsvangarai would win an election."

^-- Purely your opinion.

"You really are stupid though. Why do you think its ok for Mugabe and his thugs to unleash waves of violence on the people of Zimbabwe?"

^--- Stop putting words into my mouth.

"And have you seen the deal presented by Mbeki? No, you havent, so stop making stupid assumptions that its generous. In reality, Mugabe shouldnt even be there in the first place, this is something the whole world knows."

^--- Nope, but any deal would be generous considering that Tsvangirai lost the election.

"Another thing, how can you expect the west to lift sanctions and trade with you and to respect you when your government beats and murders its own people to keep power. By doing so would only condone this barbaric behavior."

^--- Huh? I live in the West. And lets be serious, the West is in absolutely no place to judge foreign governments since we have the worst track record of all.

"Everything he has done since the first election has been meant to cause instability" It wasnt Tsvangarai that unleashed the wave of violence and instability after the first election. Mugabe needed the instability to win the election. Mugabe knew if things remained stable, and the run off occured that there was a good chance he would lose. So I think you can only look at Mugabe for the instability.

Given that Tsvangarai got more votes in the first election, dont you think that he would want things to remain as stable as possible so the run off election could go ahead freely and fairly?

Can you give some examples of which laws they broke to appear the victim? I suggest you are making this up.

"Under these free and fair conditions, its pretty clear that Tsvangarai would win an election." ^-- Purely your opinion. True... but based on the fact that MDC won 53% of the vote (excluding the 3rd place), you'd think they had a pretty good shot dont you think?

"You really are stupid though. Why do you think its ok for Mugabe and his thugs to unleash waves of violence on the people of Zimbabwe?" ^--- Stop putting words into my mouth. So why do you think of the waves of violence unleashed by Mugabe?

"Nope, but any deal would be generous considering that Tsvangirai lost the election"

You forget this election is not accepted by anyone as being a true reflection of the will of the people. The SADC and AU both deemed it to be neither free nor fair. Are you saying its ok for a government behind in the polls to unleash a wave of violence and intimidation against its own people to win an election? Sets a dangerous precident for the rest of Africa dont you think?

"foreign governments since we have the worst track record of all" You're right... I wonder how many people will get murdered, raped, tortured and beaten in the US election... Wouldnt happen would it.

So you're telling me MDC-T didn't hold illegal rallies and they didn't announce the elections results illegally to throw the election into chaos in the first place?

I would say Tsvangirai /had/ a good chance to win... then he hung his people out to dry as he toured the region as if he didn't need a run-off. Then he hid in South Africa and cried about assassination attempts which were completely false as his supporters took the brunt of the violence. To top it off, right as the run-off came around, he hid in the Dutch embassy and lied about pulling out for the sake of his supporters, only to say, "Let's give an election one more try" in September. Taking all that into account, I don't think Tsvangirai would have kept that 3%, especially considering that the other faction was much more pragmatic and willing to compromise to pull Zimbabwe out of the crisis. Although we'll never know because Tsvangirai is a coward and a hypocrite.

Mugabe didn't personally unleash waves of violence. It was a consequence of the political polarity at the time, no where did the Zimbabwe military come out and massacre anyone. Paramilitary groups such as the war veterans were defending what they saw as a direct attack against everything they gained after they revolted against Mugabe in the 1990s. Yeah, Mugabe used terminology that appeared to condone violence, but no where did he say everyone would gain immunity for killing MDC-T. In fact, he had been arresting those who committed (keyword, pay attention) the crimes, belated as it was.

Since when does Zimbabwe set a precedence for Africa? If that was the case, Africa wouldn't be as violent as it is right now. The precedence was set LOOOOONG before Mugabe even came to power and has been going on for years without nearly as much media attention that Mugabe is getting. And what happened in Zimbabwe is minuscule compared to other governments in Africa who only get maybe 2-3 paragraphs of criticism in the Western media. Anyone can see that the only reason Mugabe was turned into the enemy was because he took Zimbabwe land from the former colonists and therefore lowered the profits of the Western nations.

Look back in the United States history and you'll see a barbaric country, the British still have us beat though. Our government had beat us into submission a long long time ago. We just haven't been the same since the 1960s when they destroyed everything good that was left.

The MDC-T rallies were only illegal because the government wouldnt let them campaign, another example of why the run off election was neither free nor fair. And when the MDC was finally allowed to rally, the police and ZANU-PF beat up all the MDC supporters and didnt allow it go ahead.

As for the election results being announced illegally, anyone can announce results, but only a fool would believe a candidate, everyone knows that the ZEC are the only ones to give the results officially. Look at any other country, usually the losing party will concede before all votes are counted if they have lost, is that any different to announcing the results if you think you have won?

Sure they got a little excited, but they had counted up the results as posted out the front of each polling booth, which gave them over 50%. Strange how it took a month for the results to be posted, and this 50% figure mysteriously changed dont you think?

So you admit that Tsvangarai's supporters bore the brunt of the violence. Strange that you think its a problem that Tsvangarai was out of the country, rather than the problem being the violence that was there in the first place. Do you think if Mugabe hadnt unleashed a wave of violence (which you must agree was wrong) that he wouldnt have left the country in the first place?

Strange that you are ok with the violence, but not with a leader being forced to leave the country for his own safety. You have to look at why he was leaving.

And I think its a bit generous to say that the climate of assassination wasnt there. Many of his people were murdered, why do you not think it could happen to him?

You really have a deluded view of the world dont you. You support and condone this violence. Why? over 100 people died. But thats ok according to you in your nice safe world in the US.

You're right though, Mugabe didnt personally masacre anyone, he did that in the 80's. 20,000 Ndebele peoples blood on his hands.

But he was also responsible for the violence this time around too. He knew that this violence was required to keep him in power. Without it he would be out. So he let it go on. He never got his police to crack down on ZANU PF thugs. Hell even the AU, including Russia and China issued a statement saying that the government of Zimbabwe was responsible for the violence in Zimbabwe. Are you saying that Mugabe is not responsible for the actions of the government?

"Only illegal because..." No, they were illegal through and through. Quit making up excuses for when Tsvangirai does something wrong, he isn't infallible. And were you paying attention to the same media I was? Nearly everything I read was "outright victory" this, "outright victory" that, so much so that I was sickened by even the mention of the word "outright." And this is what led to the violence because not only did it rile up MDC-T, but it made the Zanu-PF supporters uneasy which ultimately led to the increased instability between the first election and the run-off. You're always quick to sweep MDC-T's responsibility under the rug and even quicker to point the accusing finger at Mugabe.

No, I don't think the delay was "strange" because MDC-T caused this delay with their lies about an "outright victory" and once they found out that they didn't win "outright" (I still cringe a little at the mention of that word) they decided to contest the results as much as they could. And the Zanu-PF did the same. So no, I don't think it was strange at all.

Yeah, the brunt of the violence that did happen, which wasn't that grand to begin with. I've seen much worse slip through the Western media machine, however that's beside the point. Tsvangirai was hiding like a little wuss because he feared for his life... come on, any real leader would have been right there with his people. Mugabe didn't hesitate to spend 10 years in jail for his cause, why couldn't Tsvangirai take the risk too? Because Tsvangirai isn't fighting for his people, he's fighting for himself.

I'm not even going to entertain your assassination conspiracies.

Mugabe's responsibility for this violence lies in the rhetoric he used and his belated response to the violence. He didn't command any of this violence as you people are so adamant to claim. People seem to forget that hunger (especially in the West where few people actually experience hunger) makes some people very prone to violence.

Again with the Ndebele. Why didn't the West put sanctions on Mugabe in the 1980s? These hypocrites didn't care at all about the Ndebele then, but all of a sudden they entered the center stage. You and the West need to admit your only reasons for being anti-Mugabe is because he has been oppressing the British colonists. Stop pretending to actually care about the Ndebele and stop using them to further your agenda.

And I don't care what Russia and China say. Why would I? I've never denied Mugabe's partial responsibility, but it is in no way greater than the responsibility of Tsvanigrai and the West hold for the current situation in Zimbabwe. I'm so tired of your binary logic.

So tell us oh wise one, why these campaign rallies were illegal? What nonsense. You and I both know that the MDC were not able to campaign freely or fairly. The AU noted this and the SADC noted this.

You are the one quick to sweep the violence, murder and intimidation at the hands of Mugabe under the rug. Why is this?

As for my assassintation conspiracies, why is it so hard to believe that MT could have been targeted given scores of his own people were being murdered? Makes perfect sense really.

As for my binary logic.. just keeping it simple for you.

Now tell me, how do you condone and support a man who has so clearly beaten and murdered his own people to keep power?

Don't ask me why Zimbabwe has the laws they do -- I can barely explain why my government makes certain things illegal. That's beside the point, MDC-T was actively trying to force the government's hand as to appear to be oppressed. Luckily Mugabe only did a catch-and-release tactic to avoid any further confrontation with the West.

I'd say Mugabe and Tsvangirai's ability to campaign were about equal in the sense that Tsvangirai got plenty of help from the Western aid agencies and media. While Mugabe had the advantage of being the incumbent, that's like Obama whining about the recent Iraq timeline or the troop reshuffle to Afghanistan which favor McCain's campaign as they take from Obama's original promises. Obviously it was unfair for both sides: Mugabe's ability to govern was hindered by the West and Tsvangirai's ability to hold large rallies was hindered by the laws of Zimbabwe. Why don't you take the time to look at the whole picture instead of constantly using tunnel vision?

You seem to have a very distorted view of what happened here.

I say the MDC-T was activily trying to campaign (which any political party would do before an election) and you say they were "actively trying to force the government's hand as to appear to be oppressed". Seem strange that the MDC-T werent allowed to hold rallies while Mugabe was. But good to see you admit that this was unfair to the MDC.

As for the MDC getting help from the western media, how the hell did they influence the election? They were all banned from the country and independent newspapers were burnt and not allowed to be distributed freely.

Don't ask me why Zimbabwe has the laws they do -- I can barely explain why my government makes certain things illegal. That's beside the point, MDC-T was actively trying to force the government's hand as to appear to be oppressed. Luckily Mugabe only did a catch-and-release tactic to avoid any further confrontation with the West.

And remind me again how aid agencies, giving food to the poor starving people in zimbabwe can influence an election. Dont be so rediculous.

So how about you stop looking through your rose coloured glasses and see what really went on.

Why do you condone and support the behaviour of Mugabe who beat, murdered and tortured his own people?

You seem to have a very distorted view of what happened here.

I say the MDC-T was activily trying to campaign (which any political party would do before an election) and you say they were "actively trying to force the government's hand as to appear to be oppressed". Seem strange that the MDC-T werent allowed to hold rallies while Mugabe was. But good to see you admit that this was unfair to the MDC.

As for the MDC getting help from the western media, how the hell did they influence the election? They were all banned from the country and independent newspapers were burnt and not allowed to be distributed freely.

Don't ask me why Zimbabwe has the laws they do -- I can barely explain why my government makes certain things illegal. That's beside the point, MDC-T was actively trying to force the government's hand as to appear to be oppressed. Luckily Mugabe only did a catch-and-release tactic to avoid any further confrontation with the West.

And remind me again how aid agencies, giving food to the poor starving people in zimbabwe can influence an election. Dont be so rediculous.

So how about you stop looking through your rose coloured glasses and see what really went on.

Why do you condone and support the behaviour of Mugabe who beat, murdered and tortured his own people?

If the Zimbabwe police just allowed for Tsvangirai to frivolously break the laws, then what use are they in the first place? You can't expect special treatment just because you want it. If you don't like the laws of Zimbabwe, take it to the courts or parliament and try to get them changed -- it really has little to do with Mugabe who is part of the executive branch, the law enforcers.

You're here, aren't you? And proudly proclaiming the Western line and there are also Zimbabweans amongst us, reading and responding. Any Zimbabwean with internet access can read Western media and then relay the information to those without access to the Internet. To say it had no effect on the information circulating Zimbabwe during the election would be ludicrous.

The people handing out the food aren't mute, they have a voice and they use it. To assume they all remained apolitical would be nonsense, especially considering the controversies surrounding this election.

I see what's going on in Zimbabwe, but I'm much more concerned about what's going on outside of Zimbabwe, particularly the West's agenda, which I'm overtly opposed too. As far as I'm concerned, Zimbabwe and their regional neighbors will ultimately decide an end to this crisis. I'm concerned about the West, where I live, continually putting blood on my hands through their sanctions, wars and exploitation. I don't want this to happen to Zimbabwe and I don't want this to happen to a different country in the likely near future. It seems to happen every 10 or so years... it needs to be stopped.

What I hear coming out of your mouth is no different than the same old "white man's burden" crap... it's time you realize this "burden" is over with. Your self-righteousness is becoming unbearable. It's time you and the West just GTFO of the internal affairs of others.

If the Zimbabwean police didnt apply the laws selectively then we wouldnt be in the situation we're in now!

And I'm really sorry that its a burdon to me that the people of Zimbabwe are being beaten, raped, murdered and tortured by your hero Mugabe. I'm really sorry that I think that Mugabe should not be in power, and shouldnt be allowed to get away with the murder of his own people. You obviously have a differnt value for life than I have.

You havent answered my question. Why do you support and condone a man that has so obviously beaten, raped and murdered his own people to keep power?

Mugabe didn't break the law, as far as I know. Mind providing a little informational backing to your accusations?

A burden? I don't care if you have opinions about Zimbabwe politics, it's when you support intervention that bothers me. I'm not supporting sanctions or any kind of intervention if Tsvangirai gets elected because I'm not a sore loser. You however are fully behind the Western manufactured food shortages because of irrational emotions you have against Mugabe. So don't hypocritically sit there and pretend you actually care about Zimbabweans when you and the MDC-T are cheering on this crisis until you get what you want... grow up.

I'm not going to answer your ridiculous question, I thought you would have figured that out by now.

So when has the MDC-T or myself been cheering on this crisis then? I think you are well and truely misinformed. Why would I want the people of Zimbabwe to suffer anymore than they have.

Its not a matter of what myself or the MDC-T want, its what the people of Zimbabwe want. And we saw that in the first election when people could vote relatively freely and fairly. You however would rather the person that beats his people keep power. Pretty sadistic if you ask me.

And why would I not support intervention when I see a leader brutalising his own people. But once again I see we both have a different view of the value of life here.

So all this talk about the weather being responsible for the farms lack of production of food, now is the west's fault? Make up your mind! You're just flip flopping left right and centre here.

Why is my question so rediculous? Mugabe clearly orchestrated a campaign of intimidation and violence against opposition supporters to win the run off. All I want to know is why you support and condone this man? Pretty simple really.

That's a bold faced lie. You and the MDC-T support the sanctions which have caused greatly increased suffering to the Zimbabwe people and to top it off you lie about who the sanctions hurt to justify your evil. You guys don't need to support the sanction, but you do because it gives you an excuse to point the finger at Zimbabwe and pretend that Mugabe is the only problem.

When have I ever said the /sole/ reason for the food shortages was the adverse weather? I didn't, but you obviously can't take more than one thing into account before your feeble mind overflows. Between the weather, the sanctions, and the economic downturn of the 90s -- Zimbabwe became the way it is right now. Instead of allowing Zimbabwe to recover in the 1990s (many countries had trouble in the 1990s: Cuba, Japan, the US), the West decided to force them into an even greater economic crisis in a blatant attempt of regime change.

Why don't you get back to me when you can overcome your doublethink. k?

So tell us how sanctions on ministerial travel and arms have affected the Zimbabwe economy then? Cant see that they have had the impact that you speak of. But yes, I do support sanctions against arms going to the Zimbabwean government, as there is a good chance they would get used on their people. And I do support sanctions against the travel of Zimbabwean ministers. These dont affect the average Zimbabwean afterall.

You really are a coward though. Supporting the use of force, murder and intimidation against innocent people. Very cowardly indeed.

"So tell us how sanctions on ministerial travel and arms have affected the Zimbabwe economy then"?

awt, you know so much better than this. What you prove, however, is that there are still people (large in number, I fear) who in the face of truth, continue to puport the lie that sanctions affect only travel and arms trading. When, in fact, sanctions have long affected the trading of all goods including the supply of food and farming equipment.

But continue your lie; it is your right in a free world.

Way to prove my accusation of doublethink 100% correct, awt.

You still havent told me why you condone and support the beating of people by Mugabe...

If America is that bad , why do you stay ? Surely Zimbabwe has more to offer under a brilliant President Mugabe . I am astonished that a person of your noble character would stay in mzungu country when Afrika beckons with all its delights !

Because I'm not the kind of person to flee. I don't mind being an outcast here, if it means I can get in the face of the enemy.

Reminds me of a movie I once saw...

I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way.

Maybe you should watch less fantasy and get a grip on the real world?

A real world where idiots like support and condone a man who beats his own people?

d-bokk; do you seriously believe that because Tsvangirai's name was left on the ballot paper after he withdrew from the run-off means that he won only 20% vote and therefore Mugabe 'won' the other 80%? If you do, that's priceless; I'll be looking forward to reading your other posts with great anticipation.

By the way, I didn't say that Russia and China were manipulated; George Charamba did. Perhaps you should have read the article first.

Do not let branches hide the rotten tree! The rotten illegitimate regime of murderer Mugabe, hero turned bloodstained monster, is a household piece of news. It's not The Herald that can now brainwash bleeding Zimbabweans.

Mugabe and his ZANU-PF cannot redress the devastated economic of the country. All doors will be closed to an illegitimate regime!

If the Army and Police with Mbeki collusion succeed in maintaing Mugabe's illegitimate regime, it would turned out worse than the rotten banana republic of Papa Duvalier.

How long SADC would sit idle looking at Zimbabwe undermining the economies of the whole region?

Ofcourse Uncle Bob is not a legitimate leader..How can you be a leader when you failed to get the majority in parliament and then organise a one man election and even forcing people to vote for you..?

The 1 question I have about 80% of the vote for Mugga in the run off is; if less than 50% of those registered to vote and only 70 something percent of those intimidated,confused or deluded " voted " for Mugga?Only shows he couldn't even win a one horse race . personally I think Morgan won the election that wasn't an election.

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Thank you for finally bringing to light the real reason behind the instability in Zimbabwe. The media to commonly ignores these facts, for their own gain obviously.

and idiots like you so quickly forget that Mugabe is a genocidal maniac, responsible for the deaths of 20,000 Ndebele people in the 80's, and for the rape, beatings, torture and murder of so many more during the recent elections. Why do you forget this? Why do you support someone who behaves this way? Why type of person are you?

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Bokk:

In case you didn't get the memo, no one cares about how wonderful the '80's were under Comrade Bob. In the current situation, Zimbabwe suffers from 11 MILLION % inflation, 80% unemployment, 35% of the population has left the country! ZANU-PF/Mugabe's response to the 3/08 elections was to throw a blanket of darkness over the media coverage of the "run-off", harass, beat, rape and torture the supporters of the opposition, and THEN he claims a mandate to govern?

If you live in the U.S., you are a coward! If you support ZANU-PF/Mugabe's stewardship of the Zimbabwean economy with the results they have delivered, you are an idiot.

"Total Empowerment" is nice as a slogan if you have the means to back it up -ZANU-PF/Mugabe did NOT! I don't care if Zimbabwe turns out to be pro-"west" or pro "Russian/China" when things get sorted out, but the "West", including most of us here in the U.S. really don't care about Zimbabwe except that their people have the opportunity for self-expression and self-government. ZANU-PF/Mugabe have clearly not allowed that to happen.

Again, how can you defend a party/government (small G) that has driven it's country to the brink of devastation.

If you're "totally empowered" there should be no concern about "outside interference" because you are strong enough to prevail. ZANU-PF/Mugabe's slogan of "Total Empowerment" is a totally empty slogan - in addition to 11 MILLION % inflation, 80% unemployment and 35% of the population in diaspora, the election "results" of June are as empty as the campaign slogans of ZANU-PF.

II am saddened that people like you are in the U.S., I wish you would leave because you obviously cannot tell what bulls%#* I........

I wasn't implying the '80s were wonderful, but I wouldn't know because I didn't live in that place at that time. Stay on topic, fool. I'm pointing out the blatant hypocrisy of the West who didn't seem to give two shits about the Ndebele people until 2000 when they needed a rally cry to get the bleeding heart "humanitarians" (a very misleading term as they tend to be the most destructive people of all) to repeat the propaganda spewed through the Western media machine. These "humanitarians" create some echo chamber where they repeat lies over and over again until ever google search shows the same misinformation that it's impossible to get the true story.

But while on that topic, lets backtrack to a time when Mugabe played ball with the West. This inflation, unemployment and mass exodus were non-existent until Mugabe began to put the finishing touches on Zimbabwe's independence, which means severing ties to the British colonial interests. Prior to this economic collapse induced by Western powers, Zimbabwe was the country that other Africans fled too. However this all changed when Zimbabwe started to act a little bit like Cuba and take back what's theres. The response? Devilish sanctions that literally amount to an economic coup d'etat in favor of a regime more friendly to the West. And when I say friendly to the West, I don't mean governments, I mean corporations, the profit whores, the money worshipers.

What "blanket of darkness"? For crying out loud, the Zimbabwe election was the most covered African election I've ever witnessed. Literally a month earlier, Mubarak in Egypt arrested hundreds of opposition LEADERS running for office prior to the municipal elections to ensure his parties outright victory. I heard NOTHING from the United States government, who turned a blind eye. Do you want to know why? Because Mubarak is a PUPPET.

A few out of control Zanu-PF supporters started to attack MDC-T (and vice-versa, the MDC wasn't the only victims) and all of a sudden it's on the global stage as if Mugabe is the new Hitler. That's bullshit, 200 people isn't a genocide and will never be as such. Unfortunate as it may be, it is something that happens when you have a polarity in politics. The US, for example, doesn't have that... they have two sides of the same coin so there will never be such a rivalry as there is in Zimbabwe right now. How did you not expect this to happen? Sure Mugabe didn't help much by using the rhetoric that he did, but I don't blame him for not handing over the presidency to the West without a fight.

How am I coward for living in the USA? People like you who cheer on the MDC as they create instability from the comfort of your armchair are the real cowards. All I ask is for my bitch of a country to stop imposing their will on others. I'm not here "supporting" Mugabe, I'm here defending the truth.

I'll say it once more: Mugabe didn't destroy the Zimbabwe economy. This all began with the sanctions whether you like it or not. There's absolutely no evidence to suggest that the land reform is what caused the collapse, especially with regards to the staple crops. How do you explain Zimbabwe not being able to feed their people when the corporate farms produced VERY LITTLE staple crops? It's because the sanctions put a stranglehold on the small Zimbabwean farmers.

I will not leave the US because then delusional people like you will be free to live in your fantasy world. You will have to deal with me until the end of days.

d_bokk; have you ever lived in Zimbabwe? From your post it is apparent that you have very little knowledge of the country and it's history; so I suspect that you may not actually be Zimbabwean.

A couple of points on the extract from your post above;

a. The downturn in the Zimbabwean economy started well before the land reform and the imposition of what you like to call sanctions. It was the deteriation of the economy (which was exacerbated by the unaffordable and unbudgetted ex-gratia payments to war veterans) that gave rise to the MDC and the defeat of Zanu-pf in the 2000 Referendum. Thanks to corruption and unbudgetted expenditure, the economy was already well and truly on the slippery slope when Mugabe decided to confiscate the white farms.

b. It is not true to say that the commercial farms produced very little staple crops. True, the subsistence farmers grew more maize (the main staple in Zimbabwe) than the commercial farmers, but this was entirely for their own consumption. Wheat ( the other significant staple) was grown primarily by commercial farmers, as was still significant amounts of maize, which was then used to feed the urban population as well as exported. Do not think that simply because the commercial farms produced significant volumes of non-food crops that their food crops were insignificant.

Anytime you want to trade FACTS about Zimbabwe, I am more than happy to oblige.

Katz, your comments are true that subsistant farmers(black) used to produce more maize than white farmers. Sometimes this is lost and at times the British refuse to acknowledge that aspect of Zimbabwean subsistance farming due to the obsession with Mugabe removal and propaganda.

It is also accurate to say the bearaucracy of Zimbabwe has been so large that it costs a lot of money. At one point Zimbabwe had as many as 100 Cabinent ministers if you include their deputies and under Secretaries.

The IMF representative in Zimbabwe also admitted that they underestimated the subsistant farmers and focuesd mainly on white commercial farmers. The IMF gave Zimbabwe very bad economic advise and this was acknowledge by the IMF itself..

Katz, could you also comment about the role of the IMF, when Zimbabwe was still in good books and Mugabe was being Knighted?

Phiri - your question about the IMF and its role in Zimbabwe is a good one. As you know Zimbabwe's economy began to stagnate from the end of the 1980's and it is one of the great ironys of Zimbabwe that it was the Government's adhesion to the ESAP policies that were fostered on Zimbabwe in an attempt to restart the economy that lead to widespread dissatisfaction with Zanu-pf, particularly in the urbanised labour movement, and the eventual creation of the MDC. (It makes one wonder how receptive will an MDC government be to the IMF/WB in a post Zanu-pf Zimbabwe.)

My reading of the situation is that the IMF failed to respond appropriately to a change in circumstances when they should have. The basic tenents of ESAP was removal of tariff protection, price and exchange rate liberalisation and fiscsal constraint. That had the effect of shrinking the protected manufacturing sector of the economy (many jobs were lost in the unionised work force) but enhancing the agricultural sector. Unfortunately, not too long afterwards the terms of trade for agro-based economies turned sharply downwards in the early to mid 1990s and the IMF was preaching increased ESAP adherence at a time when in fact some breathing space was necessary. The economy needed some respite from foreign competition in the manufacturing sector to help tide over the losses in agriculture. The IMF failed to see this and was too prescriptive.

Having said this, the Government could and should have done far more. The privatisation of the parastatals (which are now a huge drain on the Treasury) together fiscal constraint would, had they been pursued as advised by the IMF, have helped considerably. Instead faced with the threat of electoral defeat, the government took the easy way out and grew the bureaucracy to protect employment whilst spending money it simply did not have. Had the government shown the political fortitude to do what was necessary at the time, Zimbabwe would be a different country today.

I think thats the last we'll be seeing of d_bokk.

"Phiri - your question about the IMF and its role in Zimbabwe is a good one..."

I have to say that that's a very fair assessment, katz, and well informed, to boot.

I agree that Zanu-PF could and should have made better decisions and could have taken better courses of action. However, your citing of what I completely agree were the failings and consequential contributing factors of Zimbabwe's economic demise of the IMF, that institution of outstanding economists, is pertinent. I am not convinced the IMF could/did not project the impact on Zimbabwe of IMF policy.

Furthermore, Zimbabwe's real economic woes began after the mid-nineties and intensified towards the turn of the century; perfect time lines for the breakdown in Anglo-Zimbabwean relations and the subsequent revision of land reform legislation. This suggests to me, political influence at the IMF by the UK and it's allies the EU and the US including the ironicly named, Zimbabwe Democracy and Economic Recovery Act 2001, from the US.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/12/20011221-15.html

Caribbean countries celebrated independence during the 1960s only to have IMF policy and World Bank restrictions necessitate private foreign investment to support local economies and today, for all independence is worth, economic power and control (and as a result major political influence) primarily rests in the hands of Americans and Europeans, or at any rate in the hands of non-Caribbeans. Today, most Caribbean islands are independent in nothing but name.

It takes a bold and insightful leader and an intelligent people to take on the West. Zanu-PF and the intelligent people of Zimbabwe are up to the challenge, despite the necessary suffering. Most of Southern Africa know this and stand shoulder-to-shoulder with them in what is a just cause with noble aspirations and in their overt and very public acts of defiance on the international stage. Long may that continue, I say.

Selector - Zimbabwe's economic woes began at the end of the 1980's. If you read up on this era and are prepared to agree with me on this, you may be inclined to not see some IMF conspiracy at work.

I think that the IMF erroneously applied their standard LDC formula to Zimbabwe without adapting it for the fact that years of UN mandatory sanctions before independence had meant that the economy of Zimabwe had developed in ways that were unique and required different tools. Was the IMF foolish? - probably; Were their actions deliberate and with malice? - simply not.

Also,don't forget that the real and long lasting damage to the economy of Zimbabwe was entirely home grown. The responses to the economic difficulties arising out of ESAP caused far far more harm than ESAP itself.

Perhaps if Aristone Chambati had lived longer the economy would have done better hey?

katz

Granted, economic woes began with the prospect of real black rule in Zimbabwe at the start of the 80s. But I am not convinced the IMF could not foresee the folly for Zimbabwe of IMF actions and moreso than local economists possibly ever could.

Granted, also, that Zimbabwe's ruling party contributed to it's economic demise and politicians could/should have negotiated internationally so as not to make enemies of potential international partners. But hindsight is wonderful luxury.

Today, independent Zimbabwe is older and wiser and whilst I have repeatedly said that Robert Mugabe seems ready to step down, I cannot help but understand his resistance to Tsvangirai who is so openly and specifically backed backed by non-Africans.

History and context really are important when one considers Zimbabwe and it becomes hard work to present a valid point on economics and then accept that politics must be accounted for and, having done that, accept that history must be represented. It becomes tiresome and I can hardly imagine how difficult it must be for Zim's political leaders today to meaninfully and positively address urgent matters today, like the economy, like hunger, like social cohesion, like security (from foreign interference) all whilst necessarily trying to plan for the longer term with daily distractions that include painful and damaging sanctions.

It would be a massive ask of any country to recover from Zimbabwe's current position and I simply wish the government would be given the opportunity to do so without hinderance. I read yesterday that Zimbawe's Tourism Minister is now on included on the list of EU, UK, US, Australian and Candanian sanctions and it would appear that it's not just the minister (you can always change a minister) but it's the office of the Minister of Tourism. In Zim's desperate need for foreign currency to boost the economy, tourism ought to be an easy route to cash for what is, unarguably, one of the saftest and most beautiful countries in all Africa for tourists. Not to mention Victoria Falls is still one of the Seven Wonders of the World (I think).

But when the Office of the Ministry of Tourism is restricted from travelling the world to promote tourism to such a beautiful country, one has to admit that there are concerted efforts afoot to starve Zimbabwe of the ability to recover.

No country should ever dictate to another who should be in power but for nearly a decade the UK and her allies named above having been telling Zimbabwe who they don't want in power and more latterly, emboldened by Zimbabwe's further demise which undoubtedly is impacted by sanctions, those countries have now brazenly risen to a chorus telling Zimbabwe specifically who they will "accept" in power. Such rhetoric has been bandied for a number of years now and it is no wonder that the ruling party has fought tought and nail to resist such overt and brazen foreign intervention.

Zimbabwe's detractors are not saying Tsvangirai has a magic wand; they're saying with Tsvangirai (their man) in power they'll lift sanctions and allow Zimbabwe the ability to trade freely and they'll aid swifter recovery (no doubt at a price to Zimbabweans). You've gotta ask yourself, "How dare they"?

Katz, excellent analysis and contribution to the discussion about the economy of Zimbabwe. It is a pity that when Gold and Platinium were getting high prices on the world market, Mugabe was still shouting for nationalization, instead of privatazation in the mining sector. Zimbabwe lost Billions in mineral revenues.

The mining sector in Zimbabwe should be surpassing tourism by millions, if not billions! Clearly there are economic issues not entirely caused by IMF or sanctions.

Katz:

No I've never lived in nor been to Zimbabwe nor have I ever claimed to be Zimbabwean. I'm an American from Wisconsin. Why is that at all relevant?

a. So in other words, the West was kicking Zimbabwe while it was already down? The 1990s were nowhere near as bad as this decade and all countries go through their ups and downs, the difference here is that when the West has been trying to put the finishing blow on Zimbabwe just like they tried to starve the Cubans after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

b. By staple crop, I was referring to the maize and other crops that are sold and eaten INSIDE Zimbabwe. Whereas the corporate farms tended to grow cash crops which were typically sold abroad. There's absolutely NO REASON WHATSOEVER for Zimbabweans to be hungry right now because their small farmers had made the country self-sufficient on food before the sanctions. And yet here we are witnessing another man-made catastrophe at the hands of the West.

So the fact the government kicked off the farms all the people that could farm didnt affect the production? Come on.. you cant blame the west for this. Giving farms to government ministers that have never picked up a spade in their lifes was surely going to dent the production.

How about a bit of common sense in your next post eh?

If anything, Mugabe hurt Zimbabwe's export, I'll give you that. However he did NOTHING to hurt the food used to feed the Zimbabwe people and there's no reason for Zimbabweans to be hungry right now. The natural disasters were one thing and could be handled, but once the West placed their sanctions on Zimbabwe, that was the finishing blow. Only an evil person would place sanctions on a country, especially when the country is going through natural disasters.

I blame the West for Zimbabweans going to bed hungry and I will continue to do so until they lift their inhumane sanctions. And when it comes down to it, food is much more important than the profits made from export.

natural disasters? Come on... the neighbouring countries dont seem to be having too much difficulting feeding themselves... How about the amount of money paid to war vets... do you think that had an impact?

Are you seriously going to deny that poor weather didn't affect Zimbabwe's harvest? And with shoddy logic to boot. The neighboring countries didn't suffer the same sanctions as Zimbabwe did.

Yeah he paid war veterans... I guess he could have just let the country descend into chaos in the 1990s, which would have undoubtedly led to an even more violent confrontation with the corporate farmers.

The currency collapsed after he paid billions of dollars to war vets. Way before the west had any involvment in sanctions. What about the massive military expenses that were burdened upon the Zim economy in 1998 when Mugabe sent his soldier to the congo? Once again, before the west had any involvement.

The country was screwed over by these and other bad decisions way before the west got involved.

The currency collapsed because Zimbabwe had little to no access to foreign currency after the "Zimbabwe (anti)Democracy Act" in 2001. What fantasy world are you living in? Otherwise it would have recovered, but that was made impossible due to the United States. You also forget that the German paper company decided to just stop selling paper to Zimbabwe for their currency in an attempt to finish the job, of course the Zanu-PF countered that by changing the value of currency.

So Mugabe kept to his word and aided his fellow SADC member who was being invaded by neighboring countries, what's wrong with that? It ultimately hurt Zimbabwe, but I not going to criticize him for sticking to an agreement.

Come on now. You cant blame inflation etc in Zimbabwe on the German paper company for deciding to just stop selling paper. That happened like last month! Totally way after the fact. Stay up mate, you're falling way behind.

No I didn't. You need to learn how to read.

So I can understand all the bs that you post?

Well the whole point of learning to read is so you can understand at least something.

Well done Captain Obvious.

Why is it relevant? Simply because you have asserted that you know something about Zimbabwe and have been found wanting.

As for the West kicking Zimbabwe when it was already down; a considerable amount of aid and loans was extended to Zimbabwe to help it survive the economic downturn. If you read my other post on this thread you will see that I don't believe that the West could not have done better in helping Zimbabwe; but I certainly do not subscribe to some paranoia about the West deliberately trying to harm Zimbabwe.

Once again you have presented yourself as knowing something when in fact you do not. At no stage were the small scale / subsistence farmers of Zimbabwe able to feed themselves and the urban population. It took the commercial farmers to fill that gap. However, you are right in one respect - this is a man made famine - that man is Mugabe.

Oh so someone can't know anything unless they're from there? That's ridiculous.

What loans are you talking about? The very nature of the "Zimbabwe (anti) Democracy Act" in 2001 was to ensure that no financial institution affiliated with the United States could give out loans or cancel debt. And as far as aid goes, why don't we just stop starving Zimbabwe to death then we wouldn't need to give them aid. Aid is just a bribery hidden under the false mask of good will. The hand that feeds shouldn't be the same hand that is molesting you.

I don't see how the West couldn't be doing this purposefully. We have the power to change what's going on right now and yet we sit back and hope for a regime change. The United States literally said that the sanctions will stay until Tsvangirai is in power. You can cover your eyes with your hands all you want but the fact remains that this crisis in Zimbabwe was Western manufactured.

The corporate farmers produced some food, but they mainly produced crops like tobacco and other Western consumed crops. And when the farms transferred ownership, the production on those farms were reduced by 50% due mostly to the lack of fuel, tractors and lack of investment in addition to some of the new farmers. However production by communal farmers was reduced to 25% leading to the real shortages of food. And how do you expect the new farmers to even have a chance when from the moment they received the farm until the present has been under an economic siege by the West who is only out to protect the interests of their colonial interests?

d_bokk; you are quite entitled to make an opinion about a place that you have never been to; however it is a good idea to learn something about the place before you try and get into specifics about its history and agricultural activities. There are many web sites that can help you if you care to take the time.

The loans and assistance to which I referred long pre-dated the Zimbabwe Democracy Act that you mention.

The collapse of the commercial farms was overwhelmingly because they were placed in the hands of Mugabe's cronies who were quite happy to live in Harare and visit their farms on week-ends. Most sides of Zimbabwe politics agree that in order to get the farms productive again there has to be a clean out of these types of 'farmers'.

PS I will be out touch for the rest of the week as I am travelling overseas on a business trip to a place that you admit you have never been to. So if I don't respond to your reply, have patience.

Your petty arrogance does not phase me.

How are the loans from pre-sanctions even relevant in this debate? My whole argument here is that the 2001 sanctions are what triggered this crisis, it was only an economic downturn until the Western intervention. The collapse of the corporate farms aren't what caused this crisis, it didn't help but the main driving force here was Zimbabwe's literal isolation from the West who, instead of being capitalist like China (oh the irony), decided to play politics and use their economic clout to push Mugabe from power as they've tried to do to many leaders before. It didn't work in Cuba, or North Korea, or Gaza, or Iraq, or Belarus, or Iran, or Myanmar and it isn't going to work in Zimbabwe. All these sanctions ever did was increase human suffering for absolutely no gain whatsoever.

Congratulations on supporting evil. Just let them figure out their own problems for once... just once. They don't need your help.

I'm glad to hear it: however, I believe that what you want to say is that my petty arrogance does not faze you; not that my petty arrogance does not phase you. The have dictionaries in Wisconsin?

Typical, the only way for your side of the argument to do anything is to use petty insults and appeal to emotion.

petty insults and an appeal to emotion is a lot better than the murder, torture and killings on the behalf of the Mugabe government dont you think?

d_bok, anybody can contribute on this website. But Katz is also right to ask of you. Most of us have revealed a bit on who we are. That is a fair question, not to impose on you, but to know where you come from!

I've already stated where I'm from several times throughout this comment section. I'll say it once more, I'm an American, from Wisconsin who goes to a University here. And I happen to be white, if that matters at all. What else did you want to know?

Katz wasn't asking where I was from, he already knew. He was just using insults to compensate for his inability to explain away the 2001 sanctions.

haha thats funny!

...because you are a persistently selective and shamelessly patronising in all your accusation of His Excellency, the President of Zimbabwe, Robert Gabriel Mugabe.

aka the Butcher of Harare.

Hey my omnipresent friend, why do you parrot and repeat ad nauseam the same insults. l learn quite a lot from Phiri, Kartz and others as though they may disagree with me but they certainly come forward as serious minds. And l must admit, once in a while they make me scratch my head. Do you think that the removal of our President is the panachea to Zimbabwe's problems? No sir, it wont!!! The issues at hand are complex though it boils down to the handing over of the 'racing' baton to the right person ... to one who will continue the race towards the winning point NOT one who may pass on the baton to and work with rivals. Unfortunately Tsvangi is viewed as such by most of the leadership of the SADC. The exception such as Zambia has always worked for Angloworld.com ...remember the setting up and the providing of facilties to UNITA to launch its terrorist war in Angola and all the suffering that ensued. Zambia tried the same game in Zimbabwe with ZAPU but the decisive and surgical work of the Zim Gvt put a stop to a start of a civil war in western Zimbabwe. It was very unfortunate that a lot of very innocent lives were lost in the process but peace certainly followed. Every Zimbabwean is very sorry for what happened in western Zimbabwe. My relations in Brunapeg suffered too.

I think the removal of Mugabe is definately teh panachea to Zimbabwes problems. The west doesnt want anything to do with him, and this is stopping Zimbabwe developing as a nation. Pretty simple really.

Hey my omnipresent friend, why do you parrot and repeat ad nauseam the same insults and vulgarity. l learn quite a lot from Phiri, Kartz and others as even though they may disagree with me but they certainly come forward as serious minds. And l must admit, once in a while they make me scratch my head. Do you think that the removal of our President is the panachea to Zimbabwe's problems? No sir, it wont!!! The issues at hand are complex though it boils down to the handing over of the 'racing' baton to the right person ... to one who will continue the race towards the winning point NOT one who may pass on the baton to and work with rivals. Unfortunately Tsvangi is viewed as such by most of the leadership of the SADC. The exception such as Zambia has always worked for Angloworld.com ...remember the setting up and the providing of facilties to UNITA to launch its terrorist war in Angola and all the suffering that ensued. Zambia tried the same game in Zimbabwe with ZAPU but the decisive and surgical work of the Zim Gvt put a stop to a start of a civil war in western Zimbabwe. It was very unfortunate that a lot of very innocent lives were lost in the process but peace certainly followed. Every Zimbabwean is very sorry for what happened in western Zimbabwe. My relations in Brunapeg suffered too.

Hey my omnipresent friend, why do you parrot and repeat ad nauseam the same insults and vulgarity. l learn quite a lot from Phiri, Kartz and others as even though they may disagree with me but they certainly come forward as serious minds. And l must admit, once in a while they make me scratch my head. Do you think that the removal of our President is the panachea to Zimbabwe's problems? No sir, it wont!!! The issues at hand are complex though it boils down to the handing over of the 'racing' baton to the right person ... to one who will continue the race towards the winning point NOT one who may pass on the baton to and work with rivals. Unfortunately Tsvangi is viewed as such by most of the leadership of the SADC. The exception such as Zambia has always worked for Angloworld.com ...remember the setting up and the providing of facilties to UNITA to launch its terrorist war in Angola and all the suffering that ensued. Zambia tried the same game in Zimbabwe with ZAPU but the decisive and surgical work of the Zim Gvt put a stop to a start of a civil war in western Zimbabwe. It was very unfortunate that a lot of very innocent lives were lost in the process but peace certainly followed. Every Zimbabwean is very sorry for what happened in western Zimbabwe. My relations in Brunapeg suffered too.

It is too easy to see hidden hands to anything. Supporting a process does not necessarily equate to being a hidden hand. This mentality tends to suggest that Africans, black or white, cannot on their own come up with viable alternative thinking to governance issues. Everything challenging status quo is attributed to external forces like Americans and British. No external force told Mugabe to rule for 28 years, to carry out Gukurahundi and train militia under Border Gezi. They did not tell Mugabe to recklessly expropriate land giving same to his cronies who have no clue how to farm. They did not lead the terror campaign against a starved population in May and June 2008 nor employ Jonathan Moyo to unleash rabid propaganda in 2000. The west did not appoint the reckless, self serving Army and Police chiefs who subverted democracy by declaring that they will salute only Mugabe forever, even against the clear will of the voters. The west did not ban NGO's and human rights groups in 2008. It is not the west causing unemployment, corruption, factory closures etc - but Mugabe's policies and his refusal to accommodate alternative political thinking from within Zimbabwe. It is not the west who ensure Mugabe returns mid-air from the Olympics either! Did the west come to commit all the murders during elections? Actions have consequences. Mugabe is now facing the consequences of his actions, please give him room to enjoy those consequences. The majority of Zimbabweans have consistently said, through elections, that they no longer want Mugabe to lead them. For this they have been starved, butchered, humiliated. Mugabe's warped thinking got us where Zimbabwe is today, the same thinking allowed to prevail will only bring worse things for this besieged nation.

Sorry, had not seen source of article. I have learnt not to waste breath commenting on articles written by the same propaganda machine that has destroyed Zimbabwe. I also think AllAfrica are not being helpful propagating Zanu PF hate speech found in every issue of the Herald. But that's up to them. Two possible effects, create more hatred for Mugabe as the articles are provocative and insult intelligence (80%) or a few might think they make sense (20%) and end up supporting the oppressors.

Elder those are very wise words.Yesterday I read some postings at the Zimbabwe Independent and the Zimbabwe Standard.All postings were anti Mugabe.Strange that today I can only find the Heraldtrash on the web.The othernewspapers are disconnected from the internet.So the zanupigs are getting nervous.

What makes this "propaganda machine" any worse than the Western propaganda machine? You people are damned hypocrites.

This post was deleted because it contravenes AllAfrica's commenting guidelines.

So is the private media.

Well done, d_bokk!

It's inspiring to see those who think like you continue to fight the good fight.

Take this with you, d_bokk, I hope it helps; Today Mugabe is the legitimate president of the independent Republic of Zimbabwe - no matter what anybody says, thinks or feels. By his deed and pronouncements, Mugabe has also always been Afro-centric.

On the other hand, the traitorous and apparently spineless, Morgan Tsvangirai talks about Afro-centricity whilst his deeds are Euro and American-centric.

For those who argue Mugabe did not achieve an electorial majority in March, neither did Tsvangirai. For those who are upset at the 80% secured in the runoff in June, look towards Tsvangirai who spent the vast majority of his time outside of his own country drumming up support from Western governments and media whilst failing to lead his own part at home. Meanwhile, MDC Deputy Leader, Tendai Biti was also out of the country. It seems their own supporters in Zimbabwe were somehow below them and not desrving of their attentions at taht time.

What kind of amateur political party battles, fights and campaigns for an ALL IMPORTANT run-off with NO leadership? Well, the MDC for one. It's own supporters were surprised at its "last minute" withdrawal for the essential and critical run-off.

Your point is valid, d_bokk, when you say "Mugabe won by a large margin because Tsvangirai is a coward who took Zimbabwe through all that violence then backed out at the last minute. Of course his supporters saw through his theatrics and just gave up like their incompetent leader".

Tsvangirai's withdrawal betrayed those MDC voters and supporters who, unlike their cowardly leaders Tsvangirai and Biti, remained in the country to rally support for those same undeserving, so-called, leaders.

Fear of political violence is NO excuse to avoid the democratic process and Africans are world leaders in suffering violence, including death for good causes. Zimbabweans suffered "much greater" political violence in the face of Ian Smith's racist regime to put President Mugabe and Zanu-PF in place. It's a lie of the most contemptible and transparent kind for Tsvangirai to claim he withdrew because of fear of "four days" of continued violence out of a "ninety-day" runup, when it's obvious that his true fear was losing the run-off as a result of his own failure to lead his party to any potential victory.

"It's a lie of the most contemptible and transparent kind for Tsvangirai to claim he withdrew because of fear of "four days" of continued violence out of a "ninety-day" runup, when it's obvious that his true fear was losing the run-off as a result of his own failure to lead his party to any potential victory"- obvious to who? You? How about it was obvious to other people that the ZEC had been completely compromised (5 weeks to call the first result vs not even 5 days for the next result); that the militia were creating no-go areas for the MDC and closing down MDC rallys; and that people were dying in the cause of a free and fair election that was simply not going to happen - as was confirmed by the AU and SADC election observer teams. Your excuses become all the more contemptible because people died and you do not even attempt to recognise that fact.

"...obvious to who? You"?

Obvious to any impartial observer, I'd imagine.

"How about it was obvious to other people that the ZEC had been completely compromised (5 weeks to call the first result vs not even 5 days for the next result)"

Five weeks as a result of the MDC illegally announcing unconfirmed results less than twelve hours after polling stations closed despite results not be due out, as agreed by all parties, for three days. Five weeks after the MDC illegally claimed victory before counting had even finished. (I'm still wondering why the heck the MDC would announce unconfirmed local results and claim presidential victory hours after polling stopped when results weren't due out for days other than to undermine the entire electoral process and try to put ZEC in a bad light. The MDC knew and had already agreed to the announcement process). Five weeks as a result of court claims, counter-claims and appeals by both parties (some of which are still being decided) that hindered the entire process.

Not to mention that the March elections were four simultaneous elections with thousands of candidates, whilst the run off was a single vote between two candidates.

"...that the militia were creating no-go areas for the MDC and closing down MDC rallys"

MDC supporters, including militia, have been identified by both SADC and AU observers as imposing similar restriction on supporters of the ruling Zanu-PF party. As for "militia" closing down rallies, as far as I know, only the police forbade rallies on grounds of security and public endangerment. Where the MDC opposed police bans, there are notable cases where courts lifted police bans.

" ...and that people were dying in the cause of a free and fair election that was simply not going to happen - as was confirmed by the AU and SADC election observer teams".

Like I said, supporters of both the ruling and the opposition party "were dying in the cause of a free and fair election", "as was confirmed by the AU and SADC election observer teams".

"Your excuses become all the more contemptible because people died and you do not even attempt to recognise that fact".

katz, of course I recognise that fact. How could I not? What else did you think I was referring to when I said, "Africans are world leaders in suffering violence, including death for good causes"? I am not presnting any excuse; I presented a reasonable and likely explanation for the MDC's failure; lack of and complete absence of leadership post the March elections. However, you seem to fail to acknowledge MDC violence whilst condemning Zanu-PF supporter violence.

Notwithstanding, the fact remains that Mugabe is the President of Zimbabwe and Zanu-PF are the ruling party. It's being reported that Zimbabweans have accepted this reality and are getting on with their lives. The rest of the world would do well to do the same, imho.

Selector - whilst I fully respect your right to state your views and do not wish to get into a drawn out bun fight at the end of which we will simply agree to disagree, let me pass a couple of comments on your latest post;

You claim or imply that the claims and counter claims by the parties delayed the announcement of the results. Why was it then that the results of the lower house election, which is a far more complex issue than the presidential election for which there were only 3 candidates, took only a fraction of the time to announce the results? The answer I believe is that Mr Mugabe did not like the result he was seeing.

You claim that MDC supporters were also making no go areas for zanu-pf supporters. If they were, the extent and degree cannot reasonably be compared to what was happening in the country side.

You cannot recall militias preventing MDC rallys. I refer you to the last scheduled MDC rally in Harare that was disrupted by crowds of zanu-pf militia beating up MDC supporters and blockading the roads. This activity was televised and shown right around the world, so you most likely saw it for yourself. The next day Tsvangirai announced he was pulling out.

I do not ignore MDC violence on Zanu-pf supporters but to try equate the two is a travesty. Mr Mugabe tried to do this at the opening of parliament and was rightfully boo'ed. Remember that the Security Council (including SA, China and Russia) resolved that the Government was the prime cause of the violence in the March election and it was all the more so in the run-off.

You say that you recognise that people were dying during the election run up; why then do you trivalise Tsvangirai pull out as nothing more than cowardice and a lack of leadership?

You may not like or agree with Tsvangirai, but no one could ever accuse him of cowardice or being unwilling to get into a tough fight. He has been fighting for 9 years and has been assaulted by Mugabe's goons. At least give him credit for bravery and tenacity.

katz

I'm sure I respect your position and posts although I feel we will often disagree if for no other reason that it is apparent we in favaour of alternative solutions for the Zim's problems.

As for the results, the independent ZEC stated it would not be dictated to and that it would announce results in order; local, senate the presidential. They had a tough job with all the rumours, accusations both local and international (all of which were later found to be false as the votes were found to be free and fair), the increasing violence, etc. I think nothing questionable about the timing of the announcement.

As for TV pictures of Zanu-PF militia, I strongly recommend you review the footage which is still widely available online and ask that you turn off the commentary. Then you will know as much as the rest of the world what those pictures represent. I do beseech you to "study" those pictures as it is unclear of who's doing the chasing/running away and any "actual" violence is no worse than anything witnessed at a football match on any Saturday of the year in the UK or any May Day holiday. Aside from this there is an oft repeated pic of person having his feet beaten in a police van - in the UK the police have been known to do a lot more than beat feet to put demonstrators into place.

I am not trivialising Tsvangirai's withdrawal. I am saying it's disingenuous of him to say that he was concerned about violence four days before the vote after actively taking part in the runup (albeit from abroad) for the eighty-six proceeding days.

Without apology, I give Tsvangirai no credit and continue to level the charge at him of being a coward and a traitor.

Selector, you say "Fear of political violence is NO excuse to avoid the democratic process" but so easily turn a blind eye to who is causing the violence in the first place. Why is this?

Selector, I regret not visting this thread earlier but it is great to see the fantastic job that you and d_bokk did. Africa and the diaspora needs more people like you, muchly!

Hey... the Loser is back. Been caught out for any more lies lately? That was pretty funny when I caught you out last time dont you think :-) haha

Coming from a master liar like you aWart, that Is funny! I stand by my post that said that there is far more crime in America than there is in Zimbabwe if that is what you are referring to. How about your absurd lie that you're smarter than me? With this post I'm suggesting that you drop all your school yard bullsh** (nah,nah...) and spend more time trying to learn something from posters like Selector and D_bokk, Phiri and a few other intelligent, honest and knowledgeable posters. Who knows, given enough time you might even become like them although I doubt that this will ever happen. It might be a gene thing!

So you stand by your post that you said that there were "more murders per capita" in the US than Zimbabwe? This is blatantly a lie and you know it. No one doubts there is more murders overall, but you get that with 300million people. You said per capita though. Thats a lie. Haha you just keep digging yourself into a bigger and bigger hole. You're in denial! Just own up. A real man would own up to his mistakes and move on. A petulant child wouldnt.

So how does it feel to have Tsvangarai, the puppet of the west at your Prime Minister? Great result dont you think? Mugabe has relenquished his grip on power and slowly but surely he will be out. There is a new election in 2 years time my friend. Free and fair. Cant wait for that. Mbeki knows this. ANd Mbeki knows this is the only way to get Mugabe out of power without more deaths of the Zimbabwean people at the hands of your hero, the butcher of Harare.

Couldnt be happier here.

For African people of my age (74) who had been party to the emancipation of our continent and also whore are carefully following the development in Zimbabwe, there is only one conclusion. The history of the political role of Morgan Tvingarai is the copycat of the Katanga Moïse Tchombé’s. Moïse Tchombé who by the way was one the most dangerous western colonial powers’ puppets known in the tragedy of the people of Lumumba’s Congo in particular and all other African Martyrs. M. Morgan resembles physically (his face) as a drop of water Moïse Tchombé. The People of Zimbabwe and President Robert Mugabe must move on and let Tvingarai and his masters and cronies in the garbage can of the African History.

As an American, I was pretty happy with President Mugabe in the 80s. He made many reasonable and fair decisions as president. It wasn't until he destroyed ZAPU and later Joshua Nkomo that doubts began to fester about Mugabe's ability to govern properly. As the 90s began, Mugabe increasingly made decisions that his people paid dearly for. Everyone knows this, whether they will admit it or not. Everyone knows Mugabe and ZANU-PF destroyed ZAPU and killed thousands of it's members. Everyone knows Joshua Nkomo was lied to join Mugabe's government and paid a dear price for his decision. Everyone knows Mugabe and ZANU-PF has killed thousands of MDC supporters. Rape, starvation, torture. Everyone knows this. Anyone who says otherwise is either stupid or a lying murderous supporter of ZANU-PF. Everyone knows this. One other thing everyone knows, the US doesn't really care about Zimbabwe. Yes, we want freedom and elections and all that but Zimbabwe is light years away from nearly every American's thoughts. Mugabe's henchmen who make it sound like there is American conspiracies at work are just lying as they always do. Why should America care what happens in Zimbabwe? You guys elected Mugabe. Now get rid of him.

All respect to you, tetedaku. I agree; African solutions to African problems. Now will the rest of the world please move on? There is nothing to see here.

Nothing to see but a freak show economy. Roll up roll up... come see the freak.

Joshua Nkomo is surely speaking from his grave.Tsvangirai do not sign!!Although the nation continues to suffer,hold on strong. mugabe wants to make you look responsible for not being able to play the big boys game (submisssion through AU and SADC).AU,SADC and thabo mbeki ,smell the embarrassement around you.The will of the Zimbabwean people will prevail.Democracy and economic viability is all we want not war and machoness

Dear Editor

I am very dissappointed in your article which peddles lies outrightly. I am not sure if you take care to verify your articles before you publish them? I see that my name appears in this article, purporting that I wrote a letter in which I said what you quoted. That quotation is totally untrue. I have the letter which I wrote to Christine[ which obviously was openned by the wrong receipient [the illegal priest at St Paul's Marlbourgh] and handed that letter to the people who crafted this article. These people now use that letter as a source of the falsehoods that appear in this article. Should a copy of the letter which they refer to hear, dated 5th June 2008, be required by yourselves to help you see what level you cheap politicking this article potrays, kindly let me know. Otherwise I simply want to register my unhappiness in whoever wrote this article,who deliberately chose to distort facts for his or her own reasons. I am a clergy person who has no party political persuasions at all. All I call for is good governance regardless of who is ruling.

Thanks

Dear Reverend Musodza

I believe that this article was written by Mr George Charamba aka Nathaniel Manheru. Mr Charamba is the principal press secretary of Robert Mugabe and as such his work is totally unvetted by the editors of The Herald.

I am afraid that Mr Charamba has very little regard journalistic integrity. Accordingly your complaint has fallen on deaf ears. Nevertheless, it is important that this deceipt and dishonesty is brought to the attention of a wider readership, so as one member of that readership may I say thank you for your post on this site.

All non-africans should please STOP meddling in african affairs... it is very apparent that evil people are behind the impasse in Zimbabwe .

Africans are sick and tired of the double standards played ad neaseum by the so called west... it is sickening.

NEO COLONIALISM STINKS... THAT IS THE REASON WHY COLONIALISM HAD ITS BACKSIDE FLATTENED SOMETIME AGO.

So what you're saying is that you want the west to go away, leave you alone, have nothing to do with you? By sanctions, thats exactly what is happening! They're leaving you to fend for yourself! And look whats happening. Zim is self destructing.

Face it, you need the west!

You've got to be kidding. The West needs the developing world as that's where all our products and resources come from, which we just take without the permission of the indigenous people, because that's how we roll. That's why the West is so adamant about beating Zimbabwe into submission because if Zimbabwe wins, then other exploited peoples might think about rebelling against the established world order too.

All the West has is money which is meaningless in the large scheme of things. Natural resources are where it's really at. Once people reject the concept of money, the West is going to wither and die.

"Once people reject the concept of money"

Why type of cookoo land are you living in!?

Resources..resources..resources are the most important than money. Why were chaps complaning when the oil price went up to $147per barrel? WHY WAS AIRAQI INVADED?

Just imagine the inflationery impact of such high prices on the world economy...basically everybody was affected... including the so called developed world.

This shows that resources have more intrisic value than paper/plastic etc money!

This is a lesson to ALL africans... Resources...resources are the only way OUT of poverty... just like THE WAY oil has brought BILLIONS & BILLIONS to coffers of OPEC countries...!Thus gold,platinum,paladiun,coltan,copper etc should also be employed to bring about the greatest TRANSFER OF WEALTH IN MODERN HISTORY... in recent times OIL has just done it!

A.B.B, sir, you are so right, it's the good old golden rule, "HE WHO HAS THE GOLD.... RULES". And that's why they're all killing each other for it!!Power to the Pigs and monopoly money to the people.In Zimbabwe there's billions of monopoly dollars.

Bokkie , you live in a free country that allows your views to differ and that is a right that young soldiers die for. You are entitled to your views , but it is is amazing that a person such as yourself should suffer such indignations of living in a FREE country where you can actually espouse your views , or go and buy food or drink while such wonderful opportunities await some such as yourself , so persecuted by these attrocious freedoms . I hardly think anyone wants anything in Zimbabwe any more other than to help those suffering or maybe they are living the good life of being suppressed and starved , seems that's what it is under your logic. If the "evil west" caved into your views , I doubt you would enjoy the "suffering" you have to endure of free speech, eating , going about freely . The issue though is Zimbabwe, what would you suggest ? Give Mugabe more money ? Not from my overtaxed pocket ! He was given more than a chance with all the aid through the years , please tell me why he never used it to improve and update the infrastructure and why cholera is breaking out and people starving ? Everybody still shudders to think that no work has been done on the Kariba Dam wall and the disaster that could create if it breaks. I'm sure the "evil west " plotted that one too ! It had nothing to do with corporations or taking away farms , if he took them away and those who became keepers , took care and farmed well then Zimbabweans would be prosperous , it was his greed . However, these are the great "assets" that Cuba and other Afrikan countries enjoy ! Keep up the good writing Bokkie, it just really lends creedance to the fact people "really" want to live under these "great" governments of the places you mention. Ishe Komberra Afrika ! Aluuta Continua !

"I hardly think anyone wants anything in Zimbabwe any more other than to help those suffering or maybe they are living the good life of being suppressed and starved..."

Makasa, I must assume you know little about Zimbabwe's natural resources, real wealth and undoubted economic potential. Outside of that, I must also assume that you are blind to how far white people in power, the world over, have proven they are prepared to go and are prepared to go to ensure that black people are denied the upper hand in ex-colonial countries.

Non-African pre-occupation with Zimbabwe is not altruistic. If it were, it'd be a first.

Bokkie , you live in a free country that allows your views to differ and that is a right that young soldiers die for. You are entitled to your views , but it is is amazing that a person such as yourself should suffer such indignations of living in a FREE country where you can actually espouse your views , or go and buy food or drink while such wonderful opportunities await some such as yourself , so persecuted by these attrocious freedoms . I hardly think anyone wants anything in Zimbabwe any more other than to help those suffering or maybe they are living the good life of being suppressed and starved , seems that's what it is under your logic. If the "evil west" caved into your views , I doubt you would enjoy the "suffering" you have to endure of free speech, eating , going about freely . The issue though is Zimbabwe, what would you suggest ? Give Mugabe more money ? Not from my overtaxed pocket ! He was given more than a chance with all the aid through the years , please tell me why he never used it to improve and update the infrastructure and why cholera is breaking out and people starving ? Everybody still shudders to think that no work has been done on the Kariba Dam wall and the disaster that could create if it breaks. I'm sure the "evil west " plotted that one too ! It had nothing to do with corporations or taking away farms , if he took them away and those who became keepers , took care and farmed well then Zimbabweans would be prosperous , it was his greed . However, these are the great "assets" that Cuba and other Afrikan countries enjoy ! Keep up the good writing Bokkie, it just really lends creedance to the fact people "really" want to live under these "great" governments of the places you mention. Ishe Komberra Afrika ! Aluuta Continua !

Do not insult me by claiming the US soldiers are defending my rights. Every time those guys fight, my rights are stripped... right now 1 in 300 Americans are being tracked by my government for being alleged "terrorists" which is downright BS. Those people pose no physical threat and yet any American could be under surveillance and we wouldn't even know it.

Yes, I live in an abundant society, like the rest of the people in the West. I'm grateful for what God has given me, for He was the one who placed me here, I did not choose it myself. I'm not grateful to my government... I never will be, I owe them nothing. God deserves all praise. I refuse to accept their bribery of this consumerist society... the rest of you can turn a blind eye to the evils committed in the name of "freedom," "democracy" and "peace" but I will not be fooled. My hands are bloodied every time I fill up my gas tank, every time I purchase food, every time I go to the University. Until the blood is washed off my hand, I will continue to oppose everything wrong my country has done and is continuing to do. Honestly speaking, I'd rather my government exploit Americans who have the power to actually /do/ something about it instead of exploiting people across a vast ocean who are powerless to effect laws passed in Washington DC... that only seems fair to me.

I don't know how many times I need to say this, but I'm not here supporting Mugabe, I'm here opposing the West. I don't care who Zimbabwe chooses to be their leader, good or bad, either way it isn't my problem. It just so happens that Tsvangirai is a puppet of the West, so naturally I will oppose him and his Western agenda. Although in the large scheme of things, my opinion doesn't matter at all and it only goes to balance the pro-sanction Westerners who plague the Internet. My sole argument is that my country shouldn't be playing the role of the international police passing judgments on countries they have no right to interfere with. This isn't even about doing what's right... it's about land and profit. Stop pretending the West is righteous because that's the last thing they'll ever be.

This post was deleted because it contravenes AllAfrica's commenting guidelines.

LOL. So you support oppression when it's done by people you support?

God didn't give the West as much as they presently have... they just took it. The West couldn't support itself with its God-given natural resources, so they must STEAL from others.

I'm not throwing my life away because people like you are evil. That's what you would want me to do. Like I said, you will have to deal with me forever.

I'm looking forward to the day when God takes away all that he has given the West and then the West will curse God (they already do, over the most stupid of reasons) and find their justice.

Only the foolish would put their hopes in the hands of some God. IF you believe in God, what does he say about rape, beating, murder and torture of the Zimbabwen people at the hands of Mugabe?

As for the west and the resources. Get over it. Its happened, move on. Gotta say I love living in the west. Got myself a nice big house, couple of cars and a boat. Life is sure good. Those people in the west sure know what they are doing dont they. Think I might jump in a plane next week to have some beers in Germany. Lucky I have my cleaner to look after the place while I am away.

"Only the foolish would put their hopes in the hands of some God".

'The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good'. Psalms 14:1

http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=KjvPsal.sgm&images=images/m odeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=14&division=div1

"Got myself a nice big house, couple of cars and a boat. Life is sure good. Those people in the west sure know what they are doing dont they. Think I might jump in a plane next week to have some beers in Germany. Lucky I have my cleaner to look after the place while I am away".

'What shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul'? Mark 8:36

Like I've said before, awt, live your life, it's your right in a free world. But stop judging the rest of the world, that is not your right; 'Judge not, that ye be not judged....Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the splinter out of thy brother's eye'. Matthew 7:1-5

"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good'. Psalms 14:1"

So in other words, what you are saying is that there is no one in this entire world that has done any good that doesnt believe in your particular God. Do you seriously believe this?

And all athiests are corrupt? Come on. Why do you believe such nonsense.

http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=KjvPsal.sgm&images=images/m odeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=14&division=div1

'What shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul'? Mark 8:36

Its possible to live life well, respect others, help out alot of charits, do well for yourself, but not at the expense of others, at the same time and, I believe, keep your soul. And if there is a god, let him judge me on that.

And a bit ironic that you are judging me here and tell me not to judge others dont you think?

I didn't and don't judge you, awt. I suggested that you stop judging others. Apart from that, all I did was quote scriptures.

Your true colors have revealed themselves, I do not believe I need to debate you any further. You enjoy your material world... it will only last for so long.

Thanks, will do. Off to the Greek Islands for some sunning for the next week. Cant wait :-) My model girlfriend has invited some of her 'colleagues' too. Is going to be grand. Enjoy your time in university. Study hard and one day you may even end up like me.

Don't count on it.

D_Bok You seem to have no actual knowledge about Zimbabwe but mouth off to try to bash the West where you enjoy the spoils of their wealth(stolen or not). I have read your posts with much interrest to see how the uneducated percieve Zimbabwe and it is quite frightening. I suggest you try to do some better research if you want people to take you seriously. Staple crops in Zimbabwe were grown (duing the late 80's and 90's) by indigenoeus farmers in teh ratio of about 60 -40% compared to Commercial farmers. Where the govenment made a gross miscalculatuion is that the commercial farmers gave assistance and input help to their neighbors whom they had an interrest to see thrive and prosper. A good neighbor that is well off is better than a destitute one that will cut down fences and steal in order to survive. Mugabe and his ministers stole the farms and stopped all input support for the indigenous farmers, so they collapsed. I cannot see yout reasoning that some fantasised sanction could have created this. Sanctions untill recently were against people (Mugabe and his ruling class), new sanctions and pressure on people doing business with Mugabe is a very recent thing as the refusal of a German company to sell bank paper. See how quickly everything has collapsed since then, a relativly small thing. If the call by your cronies on this site are for the west to leave Africa alone why do they want European investment. If the look east policy was such a good thing and the panacea for the economy, why did they not turn to China and Russia to give them all the inputs and fuding they seem to need. What happened to the capital reserves the country had. No No to blame the West for Zimbabwes demise is a fantasy created by those who will blame others at any cost. They either have a vested interest in keeping Zimbaweans down while they rape kill and steal. Time will come for these folk, they can go on about Pan Africanism etc but in reality they are the murders and thieves here and should be brought to book. You as an American nitwit should go back to school and do some homework. Instead of tirading agaist the west and America join the peace corps and do some good for the world.

I've never claimed to be an expert on Zimbabwe, I've only been paying attention since the propaganda campaign began. I'm only here to counteract the pro-sanction Westerners who pretend to be righteous. To be honest, I'm not really concerned about what Zimbabwe does -- it is up to them how they handle their land and government. However I don't like it when people claim that sanctions are in any way helping the situation, I would fully accept a MDC-T supporter who opposed the sanctions, although they seem to be very few in number. My agenda, politics, ideology or what have you, is completely non-interventionist in all ways. That's as far as my argument extends.

There might have been a better way to redistribute the land, but we will never know because we're looking at it in hindsight. So, from here on out we're suppose to move forward and go beyond the petty "what if..." logic and attempt to rebuild Zimbabwe, since all sides are claiming to be arguing for the betterment of the lives of the Zimbabwe people anyway. Of course, the real reason the West is trying to force a regime change is because they want the land to go back to the British, it even says it in the "Zimbabwe Democracy Act" -- you should read it sometime.

And don't lie about the sanctions being "against Mugabe." The US has had an all encompassing sanction on Zimbabwe since 2001, which they claimed was set in place because they said Mugabe wasn't democratically legitimate. Then in 2002, Mugabe won a free and fair election... no sanctions were lifted. Hypocrisy at its finest.

The reason I call for Western capital to reenter Zimbabwe is because most of the capital is in the West. The whole logic behind colonization in the first place was to open up more markets for Europe, but what's the point if you're going to just shut them when something doesn't go your way? That's childish if you ask me.

d_bokk; it is wild unsubstantiated comments such as 'that's where all our products and resources come from...'that makes it very difficult to see your particular point of view.

Let me explain:

If one takes mineral resources, even the most cursory research will establish that developed nations such as the US, Canada, Russia and Australia have enormous domestic mining industries. For example Australian coal and iron ore is playing a significant role in China's rapid economic development. These two products are exported essentially as raw unbenefeciated products for the Chinese to turn into value added products. No one is denying that Western companies own and operate mines outside of their own countries; however they do so at the express invitation of those countries who would rather see exports and jobs than leave the minerals in the ground. Furthermore it is the developing countries who have become the most significant group of buyers for these minerals. These minerals are no longer principally destined for Western buyers. The CEO of the largest mining company in the world said as much only last month.

If one takes agricultural resources the same applies, but probably even more so. The West could feed itself without having to take resources from the developing world. It does this by subsidising it's domestic farmers (rice in Japan being the most obvious example). You may validily argue that price distortions brought about by these practices have surpressed agricultural developments in the developing world; however, that is another another matter and not germane to your contention that the West relies on getting all of its products and resources from the developing world.

If one takes human resources, it is true that there has been a flow of skilled and trained people out of many parts the developing world into the West as these people seek a better life. This is particularly true of Zimbabwe. Conversely however many many more jobs have been exported from the West to places such as China, India, Mexico and Brazil. Ask yourself where have the USA's steel, auto and clothing industries gone; the answer is south of the border and to Asia.

Keep the outdated ideology out of the discussion and I and others on this website would be more than pleased to debate the facts.

Let me explain this to you:

Mines in northern Wisconsin are full of minerals, but they're shut down. Do you know why? Because the workers weren't willing to accept lower pay in order to swell the pockets of the CEOs. Of course we have resources, but it costs a lot more in labor because we are able to march on Washington if it ever came to that. Instead they took away those jobs because that kind of labor is real work, which means the wages should be higher than some petty service industry job that can get away with paying low wages. Our government doesn't need us to extract these resources, they just need us to keep consuming so the market doesn't fall apart, although we haven't been able to do that either. Look at what's happening now that Americans are being more frugal due to the economic crisis and it will only get worse. Even the banks that weren't even affected by the subprime mortgage debacle (Goldman Sach) are starting to show signs of distress. To be honest, I'm almost hoping that the entire banking industry collapses... I'm growing tired of those usurers anyway.

We're pillaging the developing world first because a) it is profitable and b) they will only allow us to do it for so long. There are many ways to extract the developing world's minerals that is not exploitative. China, for example, made a deal with the DR Congo in which they will build infrastructure, take a finite amount of resources in return and then they get out. The West just stays until they get kicked out, and once they get kicked out, they take it personally and slap embargoes/sanctions on the country.

And it doesn't really matter who's buying the minerals, it matters who is selling the minerals, because those are the people who are profiting. What Western companies are doing in Nigeria, for example, is horrendous and pure exploitation. How can the people in the Niger Delta possibly be so poor considering they live on top of the most desired resource of our time?

As a consequence of the United States subsidies on corn, they have utterly destroyed Mexican agriculture with the introduction of NAFTA. Is that a good thing? No, and now they're turning Mexico into a police state with immense aid for their military sector, to compensate for the increased crime caused by NAFTA's disastrous effect on the Mexican economy. Although hope is not lost, the Zapatistas know what is going on.

You can applaud the West all you want, but it seems everything they that benefits themselves hurts someone else. This is not a kind of system that is sustainable and once the rest of the world wises up... we will be hung out to dry while the CEOs flee to a more friendly country with all their money and the process continues.

To you, d_bokk ------------ I admire your effort. Keep at it if you can afford to do so. It is a long struggle talking to a people who have been defeated morally and intellectually. Many of them live in a self hate complex and are quick to deny it when confronted. Some are tone death arrogant and run on the figment of their American imagination in their heads. These are the kind of people that would still say thank you if and when a western spits on them and worse, shoot at them. It may take a generation or two for these kind of Africans to understand and engage in the discussion of your caliber. Remember any kind of liberation is lead by 10% of the population. We are not there yet in Africa. That is why your observation runs counter to the tunnel vision many African blogers. Listen! I may travel to your country next year. I will be visiting MNPLS, Minnesota for a day or two in February 2009. In those two days we can meet and exchange views. I would be happy to give you details if you offer your email for correspondence. My email reads as follows: “2speakenglish@gmail.com”. Hang in there!

Thanks, I figure since I have some extra time on my hands before school picks up, I could afford to spend a little of it being a nuisance to Western propagandists. And reading their comments for a few months without replying kept making me cringe. They really don't like when their carefully constructed, emotionally charged, opinions aren't received the way they intended. Which I think causes them to backtrack and provide a very irrational explanation for believing what they believe. I notice that they stick to a few phrases that are repeated over and over again as if those statements are what 'won' them over and they expect it to be enough for everyone else. Almost as if they came to their conclusions on impulse. Among them all, Phiri is the only MDC-T supporter here who I would describe as rational.

I'm not too sure about my schedule in February just yet, but it would be the start of a new semester so I couldn't imagine it would be too heavy. My email is dh.bokk@gmail.com.

Dear Boorish Bear Bull, the world HAS left Afrika alone and the results are plain and clear ! Are you blind ? Look at the results , even Kofi Annan has acknowledged the mess in Zimbabwe, I bet he is a puppet of the evil too. Tell him that ! For 28 years Afrikans have had Zimbabwe and look at it ? I'm sure if the evil west had become involved , it certainly would not be the mess it is today. For once be honest , Afrika left to it's own devices is nothing but a mess ! You can't blame Neo Colonists for the buildings they built , or introducing you to readind , writing and 'rithmatic, otherwise Afrika would be mud huts in a desert with people like you eating lizards .

Makasa, just love your posts.

"....the world HAS left Afrika alone and the results are plain and clear ! Are you blind ? Look at the results..."

Makasa, either you're lying to yourself or you're a fool. I hope the latter is not the case; since stumbling across beloved Mother Africa, the West has NEVER "left Afrika alone". Not in the real world.

Mfana booring Makasi... do not lie to yourself... western countries can not survive without african resources. Look at what Airaqi has been reduced to...it IS all because of OIL.

But fortunately few chaps can think of invading african countries... the results would be detrimental.

AFRICA IS NOT FOR MAFANAS..!!

Seems African countries cannot survive without the West, otherwise why do these so called sanctions (up untill recently they were only targeted - check articles from Eric Bloch) create such a quick result. Look East, look to Russia, etc. what results have they produced, chaos and corruption. So the brilliant Bob and his band of fools have robbed, raped and pillaged and some fools think this is clever. Get a life guys!!!

http://www.theorator.com/bills107/s494.html

Read it and stop spreading your filthy lies.

I have read it and it says various intsitutions have suspended lending to The Zimbabwe government.The facilities were suspended for a reason, not free elections, poor governance, murder, etc. Good reasons! The sanctions part comes at the end, read it if you can and stop your ill-informed propaganda, or lies as you so eloquently put it.

No, they weren't suspended for more than one reason they were suspended for one reason alone: land redistribution. Observers said the 2002 elections were free and fair when Mugabe beat Tsvangirai and yet, the sanctions remain. Don't try to pretend that "free elections" had anything to do with the sanctions. As far as poor governance and murder, we should be putting sanctions on ourselves, look what Bush did to our economy and look at the thousands upon thousands of people he has murdered.

These sanctions didn't target Mugabe like you've been falsely regurgitating, they that effected the entire Zimbabwe economy.

Just read the link myself. Doesnt mention anything there about land redistribution. I think dBokk has been smoking a little too much of the reefer. And these 'sanctions' specifally target "individuals responsible for the deliberate breakdown of the rule of law, politically motivated violence, and intimidation in Zimbabwe".

Makes perfect reason to sanction these people to me.

But then again, dBokk loves Mugabe, the butcher of Harare. He totally supports the murder of opposition supporters.

But I guess what dBokk is really saying is that Zimbabwe needs the west. Why else would you want the sanctions removed for all they are is the wests limiting its involvment in Zimbabwe. So you really want the west to have more involvement in Zimbabwe dont you. Zimbabwe needs the west!

I wouldn't be surprised if you just did a CTRL + F and typed in redistribution. The link said:

"The rule of law has been restored in Zimbabwe, including respect for ownership and title to property"

Which is a direct reference to the corporate farmland that was seized by Mugabe and the war veterans. Furthermore, Cynthia McKinney said it best on the floor of the House of Representatives the day the bill was passed:

"To any honest observer, Zimbabwe's sin is that it has taken the position to right a wrong, whose resolution has been too long overdue — to return its land to its people."

Then, of course, in American tradition she was forced out of her seat due to redistricting. Long live democracy... right?

Bush love him or hate him, he is history, his sanctions were placed on him by congress. This is the democratic way of doing things. Americans will probably sanction the Republican party by voting them out. Why should Mugabe (seemingly your hero) be any different, he lost the elections then crooked them to stay in power. Thus he had personal sanctions imposed on him. Imagine if Bush and his cabinet started to physically beat, maim, rape and kill democrats purely because they were democrats. Mugabe should learn to look inward and see his own failings, to blame everyone else is blind and stupid. You with your leftist leanings should not support Mugabe who uses marxism as an excuse for dictatorship.

Why would the Democrats and Republicans ever fight each other? They have no need to, the Democrats are spineless and on the same payroll as the Republicans. The Democrats have had the majority and they still haven't managed to put an end to Bush's destruction of the economy and the world -- not because they couldn't, but because they didn't want too. The Democrats did NOTHING AT ALL to stop Bush.

Unlike Zimbabwe were the two political parties are actually opposed to one and other, America's demockary is complacent and non-threatening to the status quo. There's no need for a Democrat or a Republican to get into a physical fight because either way, the same thing is going to happen. Just look who's on the Democratic ticket, Joe Biden, the man who played a large role in getting the "Zimbabwe Democracy Act" passed. Whoa, big change...

In countries where two polar parties are vying for power, there's bound to be conflict among the population especially considering the climate that was created in Zimbabwe over the past 8 years by unrelenting propaganda, Western induced hunger and political theatrics. Unless you have a signed order by Mugabe which tells the military to kill MDC-T, you really have no argument. He doesn't have full control over the war veterans, who years earlier where threatening Mugabe himself.

And I wouldn't go so far as to call Mugabe a Marxist. People like you throw that term around way too often without even understanding the definition.

Then bullish boar if Afrika is not for Mfana's , you best start packing ! Bassop lo inja !

Mfana... you must a cimedian central ...judging from your thinking configuration.