"The statement he has made to his country is an extreme provocation to Zimbabwe," Mr Patrick Chinamasa, the Minister of Justice, Legal and Parliamentary Affairs said. Chinamasa talking of Khama the president of Botswana. I would want to ask Chinamasa if forging the agreement document that heads of state witnessed was not provocation to the extreme of their intelligence as well as rendering them as useless people easily conned? Chinamasa should be aware that Zimbabweans were denied the right to have a leader of their choice in the March election. The presidential votes took 5 weeks to count less than 6 million votes and that defied all logic. Indeed that was a con game which should not be allowed to happen again This is why Khama is advocating for an internationally supervised election not con games.

Mugabe s reaction shows that he is very afraid of a third election which he might not be able to fraud. Yet his own intransigence has created this situation. Just to make sure that he cannot cheat let Sadcc use a voting system which cannot be frauded. Mr alex weir. Harare

But then how do you handle the blatant intimidation by the ZANU PF ?

This unelected,disgusting figure called Khama should leave our nation alone...Zimbabwe is an independent and sovereign nation that will never tolerate external interference from any quarter...Well,the coolness and calm that President R.G Mugabe has maintained ever since Khama launched his vicious attacks on Zim underscores the deep gulf that exists between an experienced revolutionary statesman like President R.G Mugabe and a pathetic numbskull like Khama...Elections in Zim are a prerogative of ONLY Zimbabweans...They are held in accordance with the constitution and the laws of the nation.,which will thus determine whether they're valid or not..Thus Khama please shut your bucket..Vhara gaba rako Khama!!! Khama is making a complete idiot of himself as the rest of SADC leaders chose to ignore his nonsensical tirades...

Anyway, it is widely believed that the Western sponsored stooge Tsvangi travelled to Botswana on the ETD on monday and he's believed to have crossed into South Africa on Tuesday...The same stooge who refused to use the same etd to travel to Swaziland...The widespread orgy of violence orchestrated by MDC-T , white farmers and selous scouts against Zanu pf supporters in the aftermath of the March elections failed dismally to break the people's revolution, that's why Khama is embittered...Khama's unholly alliance with the stooge Tsvangi is disgusting....Khama should back off because he's violating international law by his shameless inteference into our internal affairs...

The only numbskull is you Mbihazia, I think the illness has affected your mind. Khama is a great statesman and not a terrorist who never fought in a battle like the half Malawian President , Mugabe. When his(Khama) country is having to contend with poor Zimbabweans fleeing there every day for help he has a right to speak up. When Mugabe disgraces Afrika with his evil ways, Khama has a right to speak up again and make it clear not all of us Afrikans are greedy fools. The only stooge here is not Tsvingarai, it is you. You are a stooge for the despot Mugabe , too afraid to really say what a mess he and his other stooges like you have made in Zimbabwe. He betrayed the trust we placed in him and robbed all Zimbabweans of they dignity and pride and you are like an Mfazi, too scared to speak out against his bad ways, at least the woman of Zimbabwe have the courage to speak , you don't ! You are afraid of ending up in Chikarubi ! Ishe Komberera Afrika ! Hang it up Mbilhazia , nobody on this esteemed forum other than a few more of your numbskull stooges respects your worthless comments, we all recognise a scared mfane.

This post was deleted because it contravenes AllAfrica's commenting guidelines.

Hi there!

Comrade Mabhiza talking about international law....please, give me a break!

Mabhiza you are an ex Muzorewa auxiliary force you know nothing about Zimbabweans let alone Botswana you are just being used as a toy and your shelf life is now nigh even mugabe will throw you in the dust bin. Muzorewa used you and now Mugabe is using you to insult a head of state. If you were given 100 pula unozvidhotera iwe! get away Zim currency is nonsense even a child of 8 will tell thats not money. And here insult a leader who has the stronest currency in Africa. iwe ibva wanyarara enda unoputa glue wakanyarara.

GT, Both you and i know that the chilling report presented to the SADC troika by the Zim Gvt is what Khama and Tsvangi are afraid of as the SADC summit beckons...Now,the comprehensive report is about to be tabled before the SADC heads of states .. It would be in the best interests of the nation at large if a full scale investigation is launched on the relationship between Khama's regime and Tsvangi...Gt you know very well zvandiri kutaura apa..Tsvangi and his MDC-T cohorts have been in and out of Botswana ever since the powersharing deal was signed on september 15...The unholly alliance between Khama's regime and the Western sponsored MDC-T has reached dangerous,unprecedented levels.,this underscores our worst fears about our internal security..It is now widely believed that Tsvangi and his close associates have a genuine desire to see the deal collapse and destabilise Zimbabwe using militias thereby creating 'conditions' for his Western intervention through the security council...

Gt iwe neni we know very well that Tsvangi's Western sponsors would like the powersharing dialogue to irretrivably breakdown then drag Zim back to the security council..That is why Tsvangi has been stalling the talks by constantly shifting goalposts to frustrate Mbeki with a hope that with instability ,the Zim issue would go to the United Nations where his handlers the United States and Britain will use their leverage to manipulate the security council into demanding elections...Therefore, faced with this, we sincerely hope that progressive SADC leaders will not let the tsvangi slip out of this one..They should make it categorically clear that they won't tolerate anymore nonsense from the stooge and they should make a resolution that will leave the Western sponsored MDC-T with no option but to accept the proposed cabinet setup.....

So why then did Mugabe sabotage the GNU agreement, by firstly altering it after it was signed, and secondly, allocating all the key ministries to himself, when clearly this is against the spirit of the GNU?

A big warm applaud for the president of Botswana. New free fair elections under international supervision can not be objected by reasonable people with good motives. The harder these opponents of the free will of the Zimbabwean people shout, the more clear it is they fear this free will, because they would loose their own positions. The past decades proof that Mugabe and Zanu do not have anything to contribute to the future and happiness of the Zimbabwean people.

Mabhiza, why is it hard to accept that President Khama can express his opinions or critize Zimbabwe. Khama, knows Zimbabwe (he went to school in Zimbabwe) and only want the best for Zimbabwe. Nothing is currently working in Zimbabwe now. What is going on in Zimbabwe does need strong African leaders who can have the courage to critise Mugabe.

What coolness and calm has Robert Mugabe shown towards his opponents like Tsvangirai, J.Z. Moyo, Joshua Nkhomo, Tongogara?....Increasingly Robert Mugabe looks and acts like a ruthless and toothless African Dictator!

I do have high regard for the likes of those who see logic as sense. I have seen some likes of Mabhiza who reason as if not htinking before doing so. It is the likes of another kind I do not have any regards for. I think it is useless to accommodate such a person comment on the site. It is so misguiding and nothing one can learn from it. If mr. Mabhiza has been following the news he would see the logic of Mr. Khama commenting and not launching an attack(as mabhiza claim) the setuation in ZIm, and not on Mr.Mugabe in particular. Now let us have a look through the window of mr.mabhiza, one does not see the currency ascending, nor can one see what crisis exist in Zim(as Mbeki said), neither can one see if there is jobs or not available for the people, and so can not really see that Mugabe has been in the role too long beyond what the land constitution prescribe(it has change ever since). Well mbhiza can just tell how come the Prime minister assigned can not be issued a passport in a priority time frame. Is he not then still perceived as a opposition rather then a Prime Minister in awaiting. I think just denying Tsvangirai a passport (need not be a diplomatic one) tell of what regard the ruling party has for him. Mbhiza should perhaps open the window a bit wide or my advice would be for him to break it of.

Mabhiza -

Firstly, why do you continuously harp on about President Khama being unelected? He is no less elected than President Kgalema Motlanthe. Both South Africa and Botswana follow the Westminster system of the electorate voting for the party of their choice whilst the party decides who their leader should be. Neither country has direct presidential elections in the way that the US and Zimbabwe have.

Secondly, Botswana is directly affected by the collapse of Zimbabawe as evidenced by the tens of thousands of unemployed Zimbabweans that can be seen in Francistown and Gaborone. That alone gives President Khama every right to state his views about what is necessary to resolve the problems across his border.

Thirdly, do you not agree that events have shown that zanu-pf and MDC cannot successfully work together and that only one party should govern? This being so, do you not agree that the only option is to go back to the electorate in circumstances where a free and fair election can be held without any party feeling compelled to withdraw? The electorate will decide whether the collapse of the country is due to government mismangement or external interefence and will vote accordingly.

Katz, the bottom line is that Khama has not been elected by the people of Botswana and has never faced a general election, therefore he has NO moral obligation to tell another independent nation when, where and how to conduct elections....The fact that Zimbos are crossing into Botswana to escape ruinous economic sanctions does not give Khama the 'right' to violate international law by interfering in a sovereign nation's affairs.....

The bottom line, Comical Mabhiza, is that the party that Khama is with, was elected, through a free and fair election (imagine that!) and given a mandate by the people of Botswana, through no bloodshed, no intimidation of voters, to chose a leader it wants to govern Zimbabwe. It has chosen Khama. What you are saying is that Blair was not the elected Prime Minister of Britain when he was in power. Utter nonsense.

And Khama has ever right to try and find a solution to the many many many many many many Zimbo's crossing into his country. Why should he have deal with the spill off of Mugabes treacherous regime?

As for the 'illegal economic sanctions' I bet you cant name one!

Even one of the Herald sycopaths tried to work in Bots. Fortunately they found him out and threw him out. Bravo!!! The legitimate regime of Botswana, the Hon Khama, should tell the illegitimate Mugabe to hold elections and make conditions for the return of Zimbabweans to Zimbabwe rather that put the strain on the resources of Botswana. The refugees have escaped the clutches of Mugabe and his band of thieves to try to survive. Sanctions have nothing to do with anything in thier case. Ask them, they will all tell you they would rather live in peace in Zimbabwe and not be harrased by the green bombers/police/Zanu thugs. Ask them if they believe in these ficticious sanctions.

Mabhiza - Robert Mugabe is the leader of a party that was not even voted into power: - it holds a minority of seats in the Lower House and and equal number of elected seats in the Upper House. Furthermore in the one presidential election in which there was more than one candidate (ignoring the guy who obtained a few dozen votes from his family and friends); Mr Mugabe was clearly beaten 43% to 48% by Morgan Tsvangirai. Therefore one may justifiably ask what possible moral authority does Mugabe possess that President Khama does not?

KATZ,,You see man, the parliament of Zimbabwe does not have a party with absolute majority, because after the harmonised March 29 elections, the lower house got 'hung' , meaning that no party attained the required outright majority of 105 seats to be able to establish a government on its own..Hence this means that the 'majority' of MDC-T you celebrate is meaningless unless it gets into a coalition with other parties...Secondly Katz,the inconclusive march presidential election you continue to brag about is now in the dustbin of history...MDC-T and MDC-M accepted these facts when they agreed to having ministerial allocations based on the parliamentary election popular vote only, rather than number of seats attained by each party..MDC-T accepted that it lost the popular parliamentary vote., and that the first round presidential election result was inconclusive according to Zimbabwe Constitution..That is why Zanu pf has the highest number of cabinet ministers(15) followed by MDC-T(13)then MDC-M with 10..

Tsvangi failed to get 50%+ in the March election, therefore he was not elected according to the constitution thus neither him nor his Western sponsors can make noise about obtaining 'will of the people'..The stooge's failure to garner more than 50%, renders his 47% WORTHLESS thus a runoff had to be a tie breaker, in which His Excellency President R.G Mugabe won resoundingly, getting more than 85% of the votes..,The runoff held according to Zimbabwe's constitution and electoral laws, As a sovereign nation, the validity of Zim elections is determined by our very own constitution, judiciary and electoral laws.....

The run off was also not considered a free or fair election by the SADC and AU, and thus its results cannot be considered a true reflection of the people of Zimbabwe. The best reflection of the will of the people of Zimbabwe can be seen in the March election where a resounding 57% of people wanted change.

Why not just lets have some new fresh elections, independently monitored and see what happens... I mean... if Mugabe has the majority, he'll win right?

The mere fact you recognise the last election shows us what a fool you are.

Mabhiza - do you think that the SADC Heads of State would have forced Mugabe to accept MDC into a power sharing arrangement or would have invited an 'opposition' party to attend their conferences alongside the 'government' if they believed one iota of the rubbish you have used to explain Mugabe's illegal hold on power?

your Kgama who was not elected i dont know him. Kgama was elected and won, with high margin. stop speculating

Some chaps who visit this column are just too ignorant..Chaps like MABHIZA,ICHO and others fail to see reality which even a year old child can see...They keep on blaming other people for the ills happening to Zimbabwe.As for President Khama,he is free to voice his opinions and I personally agree with him.Uncle Bob,has plunged Zimbos in turmoil,only elections can take the country out of that or if not elections,then just pray for the death of Uncle Bob.If you visit countries neighbouring Zim,you will find lots of Zimbos in those countries.Botswana is hardest hit by the influx of illegal Zimbos who get in the country and commit several crimes ranging from stealing,robbery,prostitution to murder...Those degree holding Zimbos who still have human hearts work as maids and herdmen in Botswana...So to people like Mazuba or whatever you call him,this is just fine by him...I gues he is going to celebrate after the MILLION DOLLAR NOTE introduction...

Do not be sidetracked by people like mabhiza coz they think that the plight of the Zimbabwean people is just a game.For them,first it was the illegal sanctions followed by Tsvangirai being a puppet of the west that led to the crisis in Zimbabwe.Then the ETD issue coupled up with this "so called" Botswana provocation of Zimbabwe.Democracy will always prevail.IT CONQUERS MONEY,POWER,GREED,INTIMIDATION AND SELFISHNESS.The Obama effect will soon be felt in Zimbabwe.

Mabhiza, if I recall correctly, zanu-pf was vehemently opposed to Zimbabwe even being on the agenda of any SADC discussions, then it became the main item of business for the SADC troika, now - at the instigation of MDC - it has been elevated beyond the troika to being the sole subject of a specially convened full SADC conference. It is also to my knowledge the first time that an opposition party has been represented at SADC discussions. It seems to me that Morgan Tsvangirai is making slow but steady headway with the regional heads of state. Is it possible that Robert Mugabe has started to reach the end of his store of political goodwill? The outcome of this weekend may tell us the answer to this question.

Scarface why do you want to always talk about sanctions without mentioning corruption by top govenment officials, why don't you point out that all Zanu Pf chefs children are learning outside Zimbabwe whilst our education sector is crumbling. Why don't you mention how Zanu Pf destroyed the core of our economy the agriculture sector and the tourism through the so called war vets. Instead of talking of murambatsvina, war victims compensation fund, willowgate scandal e.t.c. Do you still remember that Gono looted private FCA accounts to fund millitia during the 27 June elections and so far they haven't returne $7m looted from Global Fund for money to fight againast malaria, TB and AIDS.

I don't know how much they are paying you spread lies on this forum, I remember Mugabe saying Blair keep your Britain I will keep my Zimbabwe, is there any sanctions. Mugabe pulled Zimbabwe out of commonwelthy to avoid srutiny, is that what you call sanctions. If we don't have forex to import drugs and wter cleaning chemicals so where is Gono getting the money to import tractors.

The real truth is that Mugabe failled Zimbabwe and people are aware of that thats why he lost the elections, look at the propotion of people supporting Bob and those not is 1 againast 20 only that you are using different names on this forum.

The tricky Mugabe using was used in the early 40s by European dictators, i.e subject them to poverty so that they will love. Thats why he destroyed the farming sector so that he will manipulate people through food hand outs at hiss rallies, again he destroyed people's livehood through murambatsvina so that the young generation will migrate to other countries thus reducing the opposition support base. He went ahead to order price controls so that industries will not produce food and then he started his Baccossi so that he will be responsible for distributing even groceries. Through Gono he is limiting what people can draw so that people will go hungry and die like what happened in Matebeleland in 1982-3 so that Morgan will sign. Not that only mugabe banned all the NGOs so that people will die and now he is inventing cholera for urban dwellers to die.

But regardless of that Zimbabweans have refused Mugabe, please scarface conest what I am saying if its not true, Mugabe was never a leader unlike Tsvangirai who was elected by the people, Mugabe survive through politics of patronage not the will of people.

Rule out sanctions

Border Gezi, great post. I just wish mabhiza, takunya and other morons would read your post. Infact I would like to defy Mabhiza and Takunya to read and see what lies they would make up trying to refute what you have said. Hey Mabhiza, what do you have to say to Border's post? Challenge!

Well, I see that silence is the loud reply to refute Border Gezi's post because what he/she has stated is the truth. I have noted that Mahorses and Takuzakunya post the same information over and over, and all they do is just rotate their sentences with each post. It is very boring because not only do they recycle but say so many lies. One of them even went as far as saying that there were no hospitals in Zimbabwe before Mugabe. Lies. Do they not know that there are other Zimbabweans and others out there who not only lived the old history but are presently living and witnessing events as they are occurring in Zimbabwe. I am all for Africa defending herself against ANY nation, international or local, but my anger is why do the African leaders turn against their own people? Please can someone answer that? Why has Mugabe stolen so much money from Zimbabwe and continues to do so? Why has Mugabe killed so many Zimbabweans and continues to do so? So Mabhiza, Takunya, and anyone else, I would like to know from you why there is such a need for Mugabe to steal money from Zimbabwe, so large that it necessitated freezing. And secondly, why has he or is he murdering his own Zimbabweans by the thousands? Beatings, torture burning people alive, murdering, starving and stifling their voices sure is barbaric. What has Zimbabwe and the Zimbabwean people done to Mugabe to deserve this cruelty? I need an answer.

I wonder really on what standing does Khama advocate for another round of election in Zimbabwe when he himself is not an elected president. Did the people of Botswana voted him into power or he was just handed over the reigns.Please if you are failing to have a sleep on the issues of Zimbabwe why don"t you just shut up,close your eyes and ears so that you say nothing, see nothing and hear nothing or you may want to translocate your country to another planet where you would not share a border with our beautiful Zimbabwe which is being destroyed thru your UNCLES" sanctions. Mind, its not the international community that is ruling in Zimbabwe but Zimbabwean people as an independent people and if any elections are to be held in our country we are capable of supervising our own effort. We have the capacity and knowledge to do so, had been doing so since 1985. So Mr President remove your militias from the border with Zimbabwe and shut your bucket

Author 'Icho' must be a lunatic I don't know which Zimbabwe he is living in .He must be a nephew of Mugabe who is living well at his uncles mansion in Borrowdale brook which was built thru money stolen from the Zimbabwean people. We want new elections in the country and beat Mugabe clean.

Womudenga, face reality my "learned"friend. I am a proud Zimbabwean living in Zimbabwe and proud in the sense of being a citizen of this country by birth and had been staying here my whole life, i am in my middle fourties. I have never had any relationship and will never have any with Bob my beloved President. We, real Zimbabweans will never fear to say the truth. I will never ever accept any nonsense from Khama, who is he to Zimbabwe, he never went thru an election so on WHAT BASES does he want to force us to hold another one. When Khama decided not to celebrate Botswana Indipendence we never said anything becoz its his decision in his own country.After that he goes heywire on Zimbabwe, if he doesn"t see the importance of independence to his own country, its his ignorance, he should not think we do like wise.We know he is a cousin of the British, his mother is/was British and he wants to be knighted quickily by his uncles in the UK.Stop that nonsense Khama and your idiotic Womudenga

brainwashed....

Yes, you are really brainwashed by Western orientation, if you are an African you are a real misfit

I back my arguments up with logic, fact and sound rationality which you simply cannot argue with. Your posts are full of emotion, lies and propoganda not based on anything but your brainwashed mind.

I've yet to read one of your posts which is not full of irrational emotion.

You should read more than one of my posts then. A question for you dbokk. Why do you support a government that steals $7 million USD from money destined for people with Aids, HIV and malaria to line is own pockets and fund its lavish lifestyle?

Thank you for proving my point.

Thank you for showing what little respect you have for humanity. This it the type of people we are dealing with here people.

Your emotional arguments are not going to sway me to your way of thinking. I know what Mugabe has done, but I know damn well that Tsvangirai isn't out to help anyone except Western interests.

So you're rather support a genocidal murdered who's spend 28 years lining his back pocket at the expense of his country than a man who is trying to help Zimbabwe get out of this mess through the help of the west?

Unlike you, I am not a simpleton. I'm able to look at the entire situation in Zimbabwe and come to the conclusion that Tsvangirai isn't the answer, but just another turd wrapped in gold by the Western media. I'm able to recognize the shortcomings of Mugabe, but I do not allow emotions (like you do) to dominate over rationality. What happens in Zimbabwe goes far beyond the borders of Zimbabwe and I'll be damned if I allow the imperialists to trick me into supporting their lies through their fake humanitarian concerns.

Interesting you have to resort to name calling. Rather childish dont you think? Most of us a grown ups on this site. Maybe you should consider it.

So tell me, how can you justify your support of a leader that steals £7.3 million USD from an aid group to fund his political campaign?

How can you support a leader that does not allow the freedom of speech to reign in Zimbabwe?

How can you support a leader that condones the murder of 130 opposition candidates during his election?

How can you support a leader that needs to unleash a wave of violence and intimidation to remain 'elected'? Great example for the rest of Africa dont you think?

How can you support a leader that gives land to his ministers who then dont even bother to farm, thus reducing the output of Zimbabwe and increasing the number of people starving in he country?

How can you support a leader that is so undemocratic that he forces his military to vote for him?

How can you support a leader that has murdered 20,000 Ndebele people during his "moment of madness"?

How can you support a leader that has taken so much money out of the country that now his government cant even afford to run?

If this is the kind of leader you support, this shows me exactly what sort of person you are.

Icho let's face it Robert Mugabe is not a smart guy. When Zimbabwe's economy was doing pretty good in the early 90's, I don't remember Mugabe blaming the white people for Zimbabwe's success. Now he has lost the torch and he is blaming everyone. Zimbabweans are now scattered all over the world like homeless people because of Mugabe's misrule.

Womudenga-the truth you speak is lies. Mugabe has ruined the economy by rejecting the headcorner stones of the Zimabawean economy(White farmers).

We Africans need to stop being racist and we need to face the facts and not cloud our minds with nonsense.Only a fool can be proud of a country in tatters. Zimbabweans in Botswana live horribly sir, if you have been there go there and see for yourself and tell me if you are still proudof your Zimbawe now. Let Mugabe go and you will even be more proud! Your people will return in large numbers and you will have the freedom to vote whoever you want without fear of intimidation.

Thats why i beleive some of you guys just make useless noises about the economic situation in Zimbabwe and i beleive you had not been staying in Zim from 1980 and thus you start your day in the 90s, you never made any contribution of any kind to the well being of Zim. You want everything done for you by the whiteman hence you pray them. You don"t know they are just like you, poor soul. You have just thrown yourself and your dignity as a black man into the rubbish bin, GOD be with you and RIP

Pule44, You must be a foreigner or an pure imperialist apologist or both, to say that "When Zimbabwe's economy was doing pretty good in the early 90's, I don't remember Mugabe blaming the white people for Zimbabwe's success".

The Zimbabwe economy has never done well since independent. The myth that Zimbabwe was a bread bascket of the region is just what it is - a myth. When the govt took over in 1980 the economy only cartered for less than one tenth of the population, 80% of the population was illiterate, there were no hospitals, there was only one institute of higher learning. It is President Mugabe who has made it possible for the people you say "are now scattered all over the world like homeless people" to be employable. Without the education that President Mugabe gave them they would real be worthless and destitute. But that is not the case we see with Zimbabweans who are in the diaspora - they are hard workers and are employable.

You are purely ignorant of the history of Zimbabwe that is why you say what you say. Outside of the Third Chimurenga, the fight for equality in land ownership started in 1990 when the 10 years in the Lancaster House constitution expired. President Mugabe has never rested ever since that time and has been advocating for the empowermentof the black Zimbabweans. It was because of his unwavering stance on land that the British created the MDC.

Tsvangirai started selling out when he was still the Secretary General of the ZCTU when he sided with the employers at the expense of the workers. Besides opposing the liberation war, he opposed the land reform programme from the word go, he opposed the empowerment of blacks preferring to call land lords sitting in London his "cousins", he opposed the channelling of resources towards education and health, he opposed the protection of the Beira Corridor - our shortest route to the sea, he opposed our defence of the DRCongo simply because it was going to scuttle imperialist plans to plunder the resources of that country. I could go on and on until hameno.

Nobody is being racist about the situation in Zimbabwe. If by making reference to history is what you call racism so be it, I am prepared to be accused of same. There is no way we can not talk about the past and how it has affected us today. Had it not been for colonialism we would not be talking about a certain race robbing another of their birth right and heritage. Had it not been for colonialism I would not be talking about the skewed land ownership that was so glaringly clear in Zimbabwe and is evident in South Africa and all other former colonies.

Had it not been for colonialism I wouldn't be talking about the Chibharo that our parents had to endure and the liberation war that we had to wage inorder to gain our independence and freedom. So plse do not tell or lecture to us anything about racism because you do not know what it is. Maybe you were part of the oppressors thats why you want us to forgive and forget, NO we will not forget and we will keep on talking about it because its now part of our history.

Also note that I (and I am sure I speak for all patriotic Zimbabweans)am more than proud to be Zimbabwean because I know and understand where I am coming from, where I am and its surroundings, and where I am going, and I know and have faith in President Mugabe that he, like Moses, will take us there.

This post was deleted because it contravenes AllAfrica's commenting guidelines.

Awt Is the above an example of your arguments based on logic and facts.

takunya_ndebvu has made some very relevant points which you are obviously unable to refute. I am afraid it is true you cannot separate the past from the present

PS South, if you look around every single post on this forum for Zimbabwe, you will find that every single comment made by Takunya has been refuted by me. Every single one. I ALWAYS have the last word, always prove Takunya is wrong, then he moves on to start the same nonsense in a different thread. Take a look around and you will see Takunya being refuted by me left right and centre.

Awt_independent, Having the last word does not mean you are factual and/or logical in your arguements. Because you do not give new facts in most of your posts I have decided to egnore you especially when you resort to copying and pasting the same post all over. This is why you see me egnoring most of your garbage, I can not be seen to be arguing with a fool, who has no facts and is illogical, because people might not notice the difference.

By this post everybody can see that The South read and understood my post as opposed to you, who, because the post is from Takunya, you just say something so as to be seen to have said something even if it is senseless. You just say something to please your masters at CIA who have to pay you according to your performance - mercenary style.

You accused me of dwelling in the past and I clearly explained to you the importance of the past to the present and the present to the future but instead of acknowledging that you were wrong, on this very issue, you resorted to pasting the same itemised garbage once again. This is what riled The South because he was looking forward to learning something from our arguement as it developed, but alas, Awt_independent had other plans - to scattle the follow of the of the debate.

In the case of the Global Fund for TB, HIV and Malaria, I clearly explained to you the triangle relationship that exist between commercial banks, the RBZ and, individuals and corporate bodies. Instead you did not take a fact for what it is - a fact - but decided to rely on your anonymous CIA diplomat embedded with the Fund who is clearly not giving all the facts (for obvious reasons) about the so-called aid just to whip up emotions against the government of Zimbabwe.

Infact, as I said in my last post on this issue, it has now been proved that the anonymous western diplomat was just trying to blow a petty issue out of proportion and out of context. This is calculated to result in pressure being exerted on the Fund to stop supporting people suffering from the American created HIV Virus and whose situation is desperate and is exacerbated by the illegal sanctions campaigned for by Tsvangirai and imposed by the soon to leave Bush regime.

Lets look at this scenerio, I want to give Awt_independent, my son studying at a boarding school, 30 dollars but he has not accounted for the 20 dollars I gave him last term. What would be the best way to solve such a situation? In my opinion, I can not be seen to be forcing Awt to give me 20 dollars when I know too well that he can not get it anywhere (because he is my child at a boarding school). For me to effectively teach him to be responsible he forfeits 20 dollars from the 30 dollars for this term and get the difference which is 10 dollars instead of withholding all the money for his upkeep.

It is, therefore, illogical for the Global Fund to suspend 400 million dollars in aid because of the "missing" 7 million dollars? Instead, as I see it, the way forward would have been for the Fund to release the next batch of money, less what has not been accounted for. They then continue pursuing the return or accounting of the "missing" money while patients are being assisted.

Even if it means seconding a Global Fund official to Zimbabwe to monitor the use of their money it would be plausible. The suspension or threat to suspend more aid is clearly the work of the CIA and MI5 who have an agenda to fulfil - to isolate the Govt of Zimbabwe in preparation for their intended invasion of my motherland.

Takunya, why do you waste your time writing, what is clear to all as propaganda?

Having the last word means that you have no comeback to my sound arguments. Look around the boards you'll see it everywhere.

And given that I have shown quite clearly that you have lied many times through irrefutable facts, your posts cannot be taken seriously. You have zero credibility. So I just pointed that out to the South, who, clearly content with my response has not responded back.

Did you see that Zimbabwe has been put on a black list for aid from the Global Fund? The government has admitted that it received the money, and that it has gone missing. And now the people of Zimbabwe will suffer and you are ok with that. I guess stealing is no longer a crime in Zimbabwe.

Interesting you call this a "petty issue" though. To me, and the rest of the world, its quite serious.

As for the sanctions.. you know that there arent any, except for on the government. We know this, because you cant even list what they are, a simple task. And secondly, you know that Tsvangirai never campaigned for them, as I've shown your BBC HardTalk interview to everyone, and there is no mention of sanctions. And you are unable to provide anymore.

Your scenario is stupid. The Global Funds point is that if £7 million went to fund the governments political campaign, whats stopping them from taking the $400m to do other things for.

Do you not agree that it can no longer be guaranteed that the money will go to the purpose it was designed for? Why not give it to a country where the money will actually be of use, rather than funding the lavish lifestyle of politicians?

Awt_independent, If the Global Fund can no longer guarantee "...that the money will go to the purpose it was designed for" then why not bring drugs and mosquito nets instead of cash. The Global Fund can distribute the drugs and nets on its own? How about that? It can also alternatively station a representative in Harare who will monitor the distribution process.

Awt, You have a very destructive, cruel and uncaring mentality, a mentality that is only prevelent in the CIA. You do not caring for the suffering of the people. You say "Why not give it to a country where the money will actually be of use, ...?" What about the Zimbabweans who are supposed to benefit from this money? You do not mind them dying for lack of drugs?

Do not tell me about the alleged missing of 7 million dollars coz it never went missing and was not used to finance lavish lifestyles for politicians. There is a difference between the arrival of paperwork showing that money has been send and the actual money being deposited into an account. Before the RBZ receives the actual cash it cannot take its resources to cover for the yet-to-come Global Fund money.

Zimbabwe currently is short of forex and any forex that it generates will be channelled towards needy areas. One of the needy areas in Zimbabwe today is importation of food. On a needy scale, food takes priority to drugs and so the RBZ will channel the scarce resources towards the purchase of food. The talk about the alleged purchase of tractors, while it is extremely important, is woogwash and propaganda being spread and spearheaded by the CIA to demonise the govt.

Takunya,

From below... I am still waiting for your answers...

Think I might compile a list of questions you continually refuse to answer... :-)

What sanctions, specifically against the people of Zimbabwe are you referring too?

Also,

Where do you have evidence showing that Tsvangirai campaigned for these sanctions?

I await your response...

So Takunya, you the problem being that they didnt bring drugs and mosquito nets instead of cash, instead of the problem being the corrupt government that stole the cash in the first place. Intersting.

Why dont you acknowledge the money being stolen by a corrupt government being an issue?

Awt_independent, I will not acknowledge what is clearly not true. The money was not stolen. PERIOD. As the days unfold you will get to know exactly what happened. Gono is mature and professional and so cannot steal 7 million dollars. What is 7 million dollars to the billions of dollars that he deal with everyday. Mind you the RBZ is the custodian of all forex in Zimbabwe and so you can imagine how much money he handles everyday.

So if the money wasnt stolen, what happened to it?

Takunya,

And why did the money not go towards helping the people of Zimbabwe as intended?

Takunya, in terms of me beign cruel and uncaring, why is it wrong that the money should go to a country where it will be used for its intended purpose (Zimbabwe is not the only country that requires help) than the back pockets of the corrupt government? I would rather see it used. Dont you agree?

Awt_independent, I wouldn't agree because no country is free of the Aids scourge that was created by your cousins. This therefore implies that the Global Fund has a budget for all countries of the United Nations. If the money is given to Botswana, for example, don't you think that Botswana will have more than what the Fund had allocated to it in the first place? And meanwhile Zimbabweans die simply because you prefer the money being given to a country that has already been given its own funds. That is very cruel and uncaring indeed.

If you read latest articles on this issue you will notice a change in tone from those who alleged that the money was stolen. They are no longer saying it was stolen but that it was being withheld by the RBZ pending proof that it was not intended to finance opposition politics and distabilisation activities.

Your govt, the USA, does that, they block any money trasfers until they are sure it is not going to finance terrorist activities. This is why the RBZ has released the money since the Global Fund has now provided proof that the is for Aids patients, malaria and TB.

Blah blah blah... more attempt to distort the truth. Zimbabwe is a disgrace and people like you Takunya are to blame. There is a greater need in Africa for medicines than what the west can provide and other countries would love to use this money to help their people, but instead it funds the lavish lifestyles of the ZANU PF and probably your salary. First you lie and tell us that the no foreign aid agencies put money into the RBZ, and now you say they do. You are so full of lies its rediculous. All I am saying is that instead of the money going to the back pockets of corrupt Zimbabwean officials (as we have seen) I'd rather it go to helping people in a country where the money will actually be put to the use it was intended for. Only a corrupt fool would disagree with this.

Takunya, I see your previous comment "why did they not send drugs instead of money? There is no way a sane person can bring money from outside Zimbabwe, where the drugs are, and expect the same money to be sent back outside the country to buy drugs it should have bought in the first place. There is no logic in what you are saying. If you had said that drugs were there in Zimbabwe when this money was "deposited" I would have understood but this, what you are saying, is pure stupidity."

just goes to show how much you say one thing, and then another depending on what news happens. Just another example of how transparent it is that you are a fool paid for by the ZANU PF.

Its sooooo easy!

If you had bothered to research the actual facts the global fund deposited 12 million dollars into its account in Zimbabwe. As an FCA this was held by the reseve bank. These funds were earmarked for the expense of distributing the medicines and mosquito ntes etc. To be used for education against malaria, aids etc. Your argument is basless and nonsesical. Gono took the funds as he has admitted, thus is is deemed untrustworthy. The global fund has recently alocated a huge tranche of money to Zimbabwe for medicines in the region of 180 million dollars. This does not sound like sanctions to me. If Mugabe was so clever and such a good leader, and Zimbabwe so full of educated skilled people why is it in such a mess. You admit that you have all the natural resources to make a rich country (this is the reason why you say the West is trying to recolonise) you should be able to make a go of it. You took all the productive farms that had never let the coutry down, so farm then - what is the problem. Blame it on drought, but ther have been droughts before with out the population starving. Smith was able to make the economy grow with full economic sanctions and a civil war. You have no war, no economic sanctions, aid etc. and you (ZANU) still have made a complete mess of it. This means that you are incompetent and as such do not deserve to run the coutry. By the way Zimbabwe had plenty of hospitals and schools before 1980. They were well run and had medicines, so please do not write such rubbish, it is stupid and ignorant.

What is the difference between Nkunda and Tsvangarai? I see none both are being used by the Americans and the EU to kill Africans only in different format of event. Tsvangarai started well as a person that was looking for democratic power but his mission has long been high-jacked, he allowed the advice of the outsiders because of his own insecurities, at the start he was not a bad person but aving being aligned with the interest of outsiders he become bad. Now for Nkunda, I think he is a devil as Savimbi used to be, He is happy killing Africans and wearing some American military digital fatigues and he forgets that eventually when the true catch up with him Americans will only leave him alone and look for the next traitor.

Thanks Uoxleonard for pointing our the similarities between Nkunda and Tsvangirai; and Savinbi and Dhlakama. The mistake that Tsvangirai made was to accept filthy lucre from the WestMinster Foundation to form the MDC.

Through Amani Trust Tsvangrai received money from the WestMinster Foundation and formed the MDC as a monster to fight against the push for land reform programme. He, thus cannot extricate himself from the CIA and MI5 not only because he has received their money but also because he has blood in his hands. He went the world over campaigning for sanctions without any shred of regard for effect the were going to have on the people of Zimbabwe who are now dying in their thousands from the sanctions.

Today the people of Zimbabwe have no food, cannot get medicines, their children cannot go to school, there is no clean drinking water anywhere in the country, our currency is worthless, inflation is the highest in the world outside a war zone, our farmers cannot get imputs (fertilizers, seeds, fuel, tractors etc) for this farming season and all other problems that are too numerous to mention, surfice it to say that they are all being caused by the sanctions that Tsvangirai called for.

Worse still, reports now say Tsvangirai has trained a militia in Botswana ready for deployment to destabilise Zimbabwe. If we look at the massacres that are taking place in North Kivu Province of the DRCongo then we can all see how dangerous wars of this nature are. Nkunda is killing civilians in their houses and everybody is seeing it but doing nothing. In Zimbabwe it will be much more devastating because the people are hungry already and cannot get treatment in hospitals - they won't be able to run away from Tsvangirai's killing machine. What could be more devastating than this?

It is important, therefore, for Tsvangirai to be made to think about the interests of the Zimbabwean people first and foremost before protecting the interests of those who are lining his pocket to destabilise the country.

Tsvangirai never called for sanctions and there is no militia being trained in Botswana.

You paranoid delusional fool.

How has Tsvangorai killed innocent Africans, he has petitioned for freedon of speach, freedom of movement, free and fair elections, freedom of assocoiation. His is the party that has people killed, and for what, campaining, pettioning. Before you post such foolishness please look to the facts about who is doing what to whom. If the EU and America are intent on killing African then why are tey the largest by far donor nations to Zimbabwe and Africa. Why do you look to them to bail you out of the predicament that you have created for yourselves.

takunya_ndebvu: I applaud your patience while dealing with the most ignorant of this website. The likes of awt and company know nothing of what they speak.

says dBokk from his small town in the US, criticising the means under which is lifestyle is achieved.

The same joker who has never been to Zimbabwe, is suddenly all-knowing. I wonder if he thinks that Africa is a country?

South,

The problem I, and others have, is that Takunya tells so many lies on here, and gets found out for telling these lies, that when he rights something that sounds plausible, no one can take it seriously. And given I dont have the resources to check anything he's written, I simply cant take it as the truth. And pretty much you can assure from experience that 99% of what Takunya writes is lies... some more examples of these...

3) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza have stated that Mugabe is the most democratic leader in Africa. Seriously!

4) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza have stated that "in a bid to tarnish the image of Zanu pf, MDC went on a killing spree and murderered 130 MDC and Zanu pf supporters in the process."

5) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe there were " over 200 CIA operatives criss-crossing the country during the elections."

6) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe "Even the British are not happy with Tsvangirai's leaning towards the Americans when it was their (regime change) project in the first place.

7) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe that "Prem and Awt_independent, Phiri … are hired by the MDC establishment. Infact they are the brains in MDC hence are the ones strategising attacks on the Zimbabwean people be it via violence or sanctions." So now I work for the CIA, MI5 (see below) and the MDC.

8) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe that war veterans and police officers should be allowed to bar the MDC from distributing food to starving orphans.

9) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe that freedom of speech should not exist in Zimbabwe and newspaper editors should be monitored to ensure they subscribe to the Zanu PF government's policies.

10) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe that the US and Britain have openly stated that they are working with Zimbabwean journalists for "illegal regime change"

11) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe the west "created the HIV virus and injeted it into the African people. They then turned around and alleged that HIV originated in Africa"

12) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe the MDC has a "dictatorial leader who does not allow alternative voices". Rather ironic that one.

13) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza both support the use of violence, murder, rape and torture by Mugabe against the people of Zimbabwe.

14) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza both believe that Bush is responsible for atrocities in Iraq, and this justifies Mugabe's atrocities in Zimbabwe, including the genocide of 20,000 Ndebele people and the murders of over 100 MDC supporters during this years elections.

15) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza should be ignored because none of their posts are truthful and they are always misleading.

16) If you say anything against Mugabe, Takunya and Comical Mabhiza will say that you are paid by the CIA and MI5 to write here.

17) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza have stated that "Tsvangirai appeared on BBC Hardtalk programme and asked for the cutting of electricity, trade and transport links". The episode of hard talk is available here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv-Zs1V7j-U. And not once does Tsvangirai call for sanctions of any type.

18) The CIA does not pay me. If they do, please give them my bank account details, all cards accepted. :-)

19) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza will also resort to childish name calling when they have no factual evidence based argument.

20) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza both believe that Tsvangirai called for sanctions against the people of Mugabe.

21) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza should be ignored because non of their posts are truthful and they are always misleading.

22) Tsvangirai never called for sanctions against the people of Zimbabwe.

23) When confronted and asked for evidence of this, Takunya and Comical Mabhiza have none.

24) The Sanctions faced by Zimbabwe are not against the people of Zimbabwe.

25) The Sanctions faced by Zimbabwe are only against the government and its ministers, and 4 companies, including one that makes military uniforms.

26) None of these Sanctions are faced by the people of Zimbabwe.

27) Tsvangirai is not responsible for these sanctions.

28) If Tsvangirai did not exist, there would still be sanctions on Zimbabwe (as described above).

29) Therefore Tsvangirai is 100% independent of Zimbabwe being sanctioned as above.

30) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza should be ignored because non of their posts are truthful and they are always misleading.

31) Biti and Ncube, and Tsvangirai had no input into the drafting of the American sanctions bill.

32) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe the west wants to recolonise Zimbabwe.

33) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe the west wants to invade Zimbabwe.

34) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza should be ignored because non of their posts are truthful and they are always misleading.

35) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe the west wants to poison aid and kill Zimbabweans.

36) Tsvangirai has never denied aid to the Zimbabwean people, only Mugabe has done this.

37) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza should be ignored because non of their posts are truthful and they are always misleading.

38) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe that Zimbabwe only has partial independence and that the fight against colonialism still goes on.

39) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe that Tsvangirai called for sanctions whilst being interviewed on BBC HardTalk in 2000.

40) Tsvangirai never appeared on BBC HardTalk in 2000. More lies.

41) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe that the British want to bomb Zimbabwe.

42) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe that the west wants to inject AIDS into aid to give to the people of Zimbabwe.

43) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe that west want to destabilize Zimbabwe and "make it ungovernable for eventual American and British takeover just like in Iraq and Afghanistan."

44) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe that Tsvangirai didn’t attend the meeting of SADC heads in Swaziland because he refused to go, and that he had a valid passport tor travel. This is after the Zim government clearly stated that Tsvangirai wasn’t issued a passport because there was no paper to make passports due to paper being under sanction.

45) Paper is not under any type of sanction.

46) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe that Zimbabwe does not need any outside help.

47) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe that Bush is tainting Genetically Modified Foods with Aids and delivering it to Zimbabwe. Is this even possible?

48) Takunya and comical Mabhiza believe that Tsvangirai boycotted the Swaziland summet in favour of a round of golf.

49) For saying these things, Takunya and Mabhiza have tried to discredit me by saying that "You have supported the American war on Iraq and Afghanistan. You have supported the torture of suspected terrorists by the CIA as it practises its extraordinary randition around the world. You have supported the rape of women and girls by the American soldiers many times. You have supported the use of chemical weapons on civilians in Vietnam many times on this forum. You are a CIA agent. You have been exposed as a bitter former white commercial farmer who got recruted by the CIA. You are totally against the land reform do not lie. You were part of the killing machinary that massacred our comrades at Chimoio, Nyadzonya, Mkushi etc."

All of this is simply propaganda made up by Takunya and Mabhiza to discredit what I say in my posts. And obvious as such to everyone with a brain. And I wouldnt be campaigning so strongly for the people of Zimbabwe who are subject to such practices at the hands of the Butcher of Harare if any of this were true. Water off a ducks back to me though.

So pretty much you can see that anything that comes out of Takunya's mouth is lies, propoganda, misleading erroneous and basically not worth the time you spent reading it...

See my point?

People like,Ichoe...ichews or what ever your name is,must stop blaming the blameless and face reality.Blaming othe people wont take Zimbos out of the current chaos.Khama might not have been elected but he took the reigns procedurally and legally.He did not cheat anyone,let alone torture anyone so he can rule.He resumed the office of the presidency because the term for the preceding president had expired and in line with Botswana Constitution(which I dont expect Echo to understant)had to step down and give the reigns to the Deputy President until the next elections.If you want to blame someone,blame Uncle Bob for rigging elections...there is no need to be protective over nothing..!

Icho, I like you view keep it up

Reading your comments it is easy to see why zimbabwe is a failed state. You are an ignorant populace lead by an ignorant leader. The international community as a whole should turn their back on this failed country and let you all starve as you back the dictator mugabe.

This post was deleted because it contravenes AllAfrica's commenting guidelines.

Another prime example of the mentality of the people that have caused the problems we see in Zimbabwe today.

Well, cde Icho, em also a proud patriotic zimbabwean, do you agree with me that things are not that well in zimbabwe. Khama of Botswana is not giving any pressure to zimbabwe to hold elections. But only was giving his position because of this long standing impase.If any of the two parties had outrightly won the March 29 hamonised elections nothing of this nature could have happened. Mugabe should accepts critisism if things are not okay.

Mahwihwi, You are not a patriotic Zimbabwean if you do not recognise that the pressing issue for Zimbabwe NOW is to provide food, medicine, clean water, arrest the ever rising inflation, to have our children to start going to school again and all the other things that are the suffering of our people under sanctions brought about by Tsvangirai's campaigns for same. Khama is too detached from the reality of the situation in Zimbabwe, hence should not even give his opinion on the issue of Zimbabwe when he is the one who is causing some of the problems we are going through.

Khama is host to people who are advocating for regime change by force of arms. Khama is conducting military exercises with the British and Americans to see how they could invade our country. Khama is host to a relay station that is broadcasting propaganda against the people of Zimbabwe. Khama's chiefs are lashing our people caught with no proper documents in that country. Khama is encouraging hate and xenophobic tendencies against Zimbabweans by implying that they are the cause of ALL social ills in Botswana.

We therefore do not need his opinion at all. He should just shut up. He is an interested party (on the side of imperialists) in all the troubles that Zimbabwe is going through.

Tsvangirai has gone to Botswana (with an EDT) to meet with his CIA handlers in that country and to strategise on their next move and you stand up and tell us that Khama is just "...giving his position because of this long standing impase", when he is the one causing the impasse. I do not tolerate such utterances from Khama and I think many Zimbabweans feels the same as I do.

We have held elections since 2000 and each time MDC is defeated they never conceded/accepted defeat. What will be different this time if they are to be trounced again just like on 27 June? The impasse will get even worse because Khama's fellow sellout failed to get to State House. So to tell us that this impasse will be solved by another round of election is just being silly and stupidy, it is idiotic, to say the least.

Once again it is important to state that the govt's primary objective is to feed the hungry people of Zimbabwe who are reeling under sanctions campaigned for by Tsvangirai. Elections are only due in 2013, PERIOD!!! and people like you, Mahwihwi, Awt_independent, Prem, and the whole lot of sellouts should get used to it.

Takunya. You and I both know that Tsvangirai has never called for any sanctions against the people of Zimbabwe. You know this is just your silly transparent propaganda and you seem to repeat it continually, even though we continuallly prove your 'evidence' to be false. You have stated many times that Tsvangirai has called for santions. If he has done this many times as you say, where is the evidence? You said that Tsvangi called for sanctions on BBC HardTalk in 2000. I showed you that Tsvangi didnt actually appear on BBC HardTalk in 2000. You removed the "in 2000" and said that Tsvangi called for sanctions on BBC HardTalk. I showed you the the interview that Tsvangi had on BBC HartTalk on youtube, and showed you that not once did Tsvangi call for sanctions on it. When Katz then asked you if you had more evidence, you stated that you did, "but now that you have your conclusions I will not give you the address". You'd think if you are so desperate to show that Tsvangi called for sanctions, you would be posting this evidence everywhere. If you had it. Which you dont. You then stated that "Tsvangi was in South Africa pleading with that country to impose sanctions by cutting of electricity, trade and transport links with Zimbabwe". Irrelavent of whether he did or did not call for these sanctions, the electricity, trade and transport links to South Africa remain in perfectly fine working order, and thus have not caused the state of the economy we see today. When are you going to stop lying?

Takunya, what have you got to fear from elections if they were held now? I mean... Mugabe has the people of Zimbabwe behind him doesnt he? haha

Awt_independent, The question you ask should actually be answered by you coz it is you who fear elections when people have food on their tables, when they are strong enough to walk to polling stations, when they are no longer worrying about children not going to school, when drugs are readily available in our hospital and pharmacies, when people's money can buy them, not only basic food that last for a day, but can remain with change to go for a picnic or for a holiday at the Mousi-a-tunya, Nyanga mountains, The Great Zimbabwe Ruins, when they can fill their cars with fuel, when our farmers can finance themselves from their sweat? Why do you fear to have these things, and more, in place so that people go to an election with the enthusiasm we saw during the USA elections? Why?

So you admit that Mugabe currently doest not have the people of zimababwe behind him. I'm glad we agree.

All the things you mention are a direct result of Mugabe's corrupt mismanagement of the Zimbabwean economy, and is the very reason why you are fearful of an election. And I dont fear these things in place, I want them in place. I want Zimbabwe to be proserous, but Mugabe's leadership, under sanctions that have only affected his inner core, has simply lined his own back pocket at the expense of these very things you mention.

Face it, bottom line! The people want Mugabe out! And you know it!

Awt_independent, There is no doubt and no question that President Mugabe has the people of Zimbabwe behind him. He is a people's president and so is with the people always. If we were to go for election today, the stooge, the sellout, the sanctions campaigner Tsvangi will be trounced once again and will once again cry foul.

Just look at the March 29 elections, Zanu pf trounced the MDC with majority vote and Tsvangirai failed to defeat a party that was under sanctions, where people had no food on their tables, inflation was sky high, there were no drugs in hospitals and pharmacies, children were not going to school, the few available basic goods were going up everyday including on the day of voting.

With all these on his side, Tsvangirai failed dismally to dislodge Zanu pf. With all the support he was getting from the CIA and MI5 - more than 200 CIA agents embedded with NGOs, all the money from the imperialists to buy votes from the traditional leaders, the buying of votes through ZESN and the open undercounting of President Mugabe's votes, Tsvangirai failed to reach the required mark to assume the reins of power. What more now when Zanu pf has regrouped and is as united as ever, Tsvangirai will be luck to get 20% of the votes.

The only reason why Zanu pf does not favour elections now is because our people are suffering and dying because of the sanctions that Tsvangirai called for. The only reason why it is not wise to go for election now is because people have the paramount priority of feeding their families and noone would expect someone who is starving to waste time going to vote. No sane person would expect an Aids sufferer who is on a death bed to find the energy to vote when he does not have ARVs.

Only a lunatic like Awt_independent expect people to go out to vote when they are supposed to be busy ploughing their fields and planting for this rainy season. Only a stupid idiot like Awt_independent would want an election for the sake of an election when we know too well that with the challenges we are facing no more than 10% of our voting population will come out to vote because of the sanctions that Tsvangirai campaigned for.

When all this is said, how then can you say you want Zimabbwe to be prosperous when it is you in the CIA who are killing our people through your ZDERA? How can you say that you want Zimbabwe to be prosperous when you are planning an insurgency in Zimbabwe. Your CIA colleagues have finished arming and training militias for Tsvangirai, ready for deployment?

Today, you conduct military exercises on our border with Botswana in preparation for your long planned invasion. You make me sick coz you are the last person to want to see Zimbabwe prosper. Infact because of your desire to recolonise us you will be happy to see half our population perishing under your sanctions.

Takunya,

if "There is no doubt and no question that President Mugabe has the people of Zimbabwe behind him."

Then

1) Why did it take him 5 weeks to publish the outcome of the first election?

2) Why did 57% of the country vote against him in the only election that was recognised as free and fair?

3) Why did Mugabe have to unleash a wave of terror and violence against the people of Zimbabwe that led to the deaths of over 130 opposition supporters to intimidate them away from voting?

I'm still waiting for evidence of these sanctions by the way. Can you even just tell me what sanctions you are referring too, and exactly what they affect?

I mean, you keep talking about them. So you must be able to explain exactly how they have affected the average person in Zimbabwe.

Oh... and have you found any evidence that Tsvangi has called for these sanctions yet?

Here we go again with Takunya the dreamer.This element is a real joker who always makes me laugh whenever I see his/her postings.Have you seen what has happened in America?The wind of change is blowing heavily so tell your Mugabe and Zanu to pack and go.

What do you know......"Melcsctt, Our ignorance is good for us because, though that ignorance, we know where we came from"...finally, something I can agree with.I rest my case.

ar u a mr(mrs) talk like a man,hav u lost ur mind.we ar to comfirm with the UN,if thier stance is to force mugabe to hold elections then, it wil be u to cast ur vote whether u like it or not,or u wil hav to com seek refugee here in bots.mind u if ur a youngman of arnd 30's of age when mugabe dies then u wil hav to comit suicide or else when MDC com into power u wil hav to run for ur life.siya,think agian.

Goosh, I am humbly plse to have found someone (a Tswana) to give my message for onward transmission to H.E. President Khama. Firstly, Goosh, plse inform Khama that we agree with him in total on the need for a re-run of the presidential election in Zimbabwe, but only on certain conditions.

I am sure Khama is as concerned as I am about a level playing field before any election is be held. Therefore, Khama should tell his uncles to remove the illegal sanctions they have imposed on Zimbabwe. As we speak the field is not level because there are some among us, whom the Batswana Govt support and give refuge to, who are rejoicing to see Zimbabweans suffer under sanctions.

Secondly, plse tell Khama to stop his military manoeuvres along the border with Zimbabwe. Why is this important for the holding of an election in Zimbabwe? Your manoeuvres are a sign that you are planning worse things against Zimbabwe. We share borders with many other countries, including South Africa - the biggest military power in the region, but they have never unilaterally done this without informing us.

South African, Zambian, and Mozambican soldiers have strayed into our territory while on training but this has imicably been solved because they would have given us prior notice of what they intend to do. However, what you are doing, violating our airspace, firing at targets on the Zimbabwean side of the border, on your range training, are clear indications that you have trained and armed Zimbabwean rebels ready to be deployed in our country for the start of an insurgency war.

On the diplomatic front, your utterances, which border on demonisation, and which you seem to have adopted from your uncles is another clear sign that you intend to provide lanuching pad to your uncles to bomb Zimbabwe should plan A fails. We are neighbours not by choice but by geography and so should respect each other's territorial integrity, otherwise how would you feel if we were to adopt such hostilities towards you when your country is under threat from imperialists? I am sure you cannot image this happening to Botwana, for now, because you are their blue-eyed boy. Saddam Hussein never thought the Americans would bomb, him let alone hang him by the neck - but it happened during our time.

Thirdly, you are encouraging and harbouring self-exiled Zimbabweans who are hostile to the Zim govt and who have on several occasions demonstrated at the Zimbabwe Embassy under an organisation calling itself Boasicoz. Boasicoz has mobilised and continues to mobilise Zimbabweans to rebel against the govt of Zimbabwe. You have said nothing about this although it was formed in 2000. Instead you have seen it fit to depot Zimbabweans who have committed no crime in your country other than that they are on the European (your uncles') sanctions list.

Fourthly, we would like to inform you that the most pressing issue for Zimbabweans today is trying to survive under sanctions. Our people need food, clean water, medicine, education for their children, inputs for this farming season and many more which can never be surpassed by an election re-run.

When all these conditions are in place, Mr General, we are ready to stand at attention and hold the election you want, at any time of your choosing. Before the above are fulfilled, well, I have nothing further to say except to refer you to Icho and Mabhiza's posts on this very topic.

PS. Goosh, also plse inform president Khama that his govt has now been vindicated. You erected an electric fence along the border with Zimbabwe in order to stop the spread of the Zimbabwe foot-and-mouth disease. True to your assessment, the disease flew over the fence and landed on your border with Zambia and now you have had to suspend beef exports to your uncles because of the Zimbabwean disease. OUR APOLOGIES AND VERY SORRY ABOUT THAT!!!!

Takunya, good to see that you agree in the "need for a re-run of the presidential election in Zimbabwe"

But why the conditions? I thought you said the people of Zimbabwe are 100% behind Mugabe... I mean, according to you the 85% vote obtained by Mugabe is a fair reflection of the thinking of the people of Zim right?

So why the need for conditions?

And I didnt know that Bush and Brown both had nephews in Botswana. News to me.

Botswana is free to do whatever they want with their military, so butt out of your neighbours business. Sound familiar?

The movement for democracy and against Mugabe is growing! Bring it on!

And you do make me laugh! You say "Our people need food, clean water, medicine, education for their children, inputs for this farming season" Yet your government steals money ($7.3 Million) destined for Malaria and HIV patients to fund its own devices. About time the government put the people first dont you think? This jeopardised another payment of $180 million for the Zim people. Your government is a disgrace!

Awt_independent, As a person whose first language is English, I thought it was going to be easy for you to understand what I said in my post. My apologies if my English is still as bad as when you highlighted spelling mistakes and grammatical errors. English is a third language to me. I will therefore try again.

As we have done since 1980, we hold elections when they are due and in this particular case elections will be due in 2013. If you follow my post very carefully and calculate when we can possibly have all the conditions I outlined in place you will realise that it will only be in 2013. If you do not have the formula plse let me know so that I can give you with pleasure.

This is going to be the second or third time that I am answering you on the issue of your so-called money for TB and Malaria. Ask your anonymous diplomat where they sent their money, who they addressed it to, the account number to which it was directed. Was it aid, a grant or loan given to govt for the purpose you outlined? This will help us to trace the money for you. We are not interested in heresay and the politicisation of aid money, that is, if it was aid money.

What I gather from your posts is that this was supposed to aid money. Why, if it was aid money, should it be politicised? I have never known aid to be paid back. Maybe because of my bad English I may not be familiar with the meaning of the word aid.

My point on the elections is why do you need conditions? I thought that you beleived that you have the people of Zimbabwe behind Mugabe... Is this not the case?

As for the money that went missing. There are several articles on the internet that clearly state that...

"The Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria says $7.3 million of the $12.3 million it deposited into its Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe account last year did not go to fight the three diseases that are devastating southern Africa."

There is no anonymous diplomat, this is straight from The Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuuberculosis and Malaria. As you can see the money was deposited into the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe, under control of Gono and the government of Zimbabwe. I'm sure you dont need the account number.

Now this was aid, destined for medicines to help Zimbabwean people who are suffering with AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria. Its wasnt a grant, or a loan. It was for the purpose of helping the people of Zimbabwe. It wasnt for the people in the government to fund their lush lifestyles while people suffer.

Instead the government has stolen this money, and it is unaccounted for. You ask why it should be politicised? Because its theft! And whats more, its causing suffering, which you aren in blatant denial and dont care about. And its put at risk the possiblity of $400million more in aid.

You just dont care for the suffering in Zimbabwe do you Takunya.

Awt_independent, The primary responsibility, the priority of govt now is to provide for its people who are suffering under sanctions campaigned for by Tsvangirai. Anything else is secondary.

To help you on the Global Fund, no individual or NGO opens an account with the RBZ but with commercial banks. It is the responsibility of a commercial bank to receive money for its clients and give out money (in forex) deposited with the bank's FCAs. Now you don't tell me which bank the Global Fund opened its account with, how then do I help you and those you represent?

You say this was aid money to help people suffering with aids and TB, was it supposed to be given to the sufferers in cash - each one getting a certain amount or what? I am saying so because it is strange for the Global Fund to bring cash to Zimbabwe when we do not have the medicine. If Zimbabwe want any drug it has to import same, save for a few drugs that CAPS is still able to make because of sanctions campaigned for by Tsvangirai.

How then can a sane person or organsation as experienced as The Global Fund sent money instead of drugs. There are no ARVs in Zimbabwe for Aids patients, how did they expect the money to change into drugs simply because it has been deposited into an account with a bank in Zimbabwe? Check your facts again correctly and come back to me I am still prepared to help you.

You say the Govt has stolen the money. Thats bullshit. How can a proud and professional govt like the Zim Govt steal 7 million dollars. What is 7 million dollars to the varsity natural and minerals resources we have on and under the soils of Zimbabwe? Thats hogwash, go to hell a thousand times if you believe your own lies.

Takunya,

You and I both know that Tsvangirai never campaigned for any sanctions against the people of Zimbabwe. Why do you keep posting such lies?

But we have proved on here that you are paid by the ZANU PF to twist the truth in their favour and create plent of propoganda. The funny thing is you talk too many lies. Do I have to post that list again? Don’t make me do it! hahaha

You just don’t get this aid thing do you. The Global Fund deposited the money with the Reserve Bank, ie the governments bank, so the government of Zimbabwe could use this money to help the people of Zimbabwe. They then took this money and used it to fund their own lavish lifestyles. Why is that so difficult for you?

I did not say that the aid money to "help people suffering with aids and TB, was it supposed to be given to the sufferers in cash" I said that the aid is to be used to buy medicines to help these people. Which now they don’t get. And you feel good about it don’t you.

And you are simply stupid to believe that the west in any way would put sanctions on anything to do with medicine. Actually, you are pretty stupid, so I wouldn’t put it past you. I do recall Mugabe banning all aid during the election though. He sure had the good people of zimbabwe pleased with that move didn’t he.

The money was to be used to buy and import drugs to help the suffering people of Zimbabwe. Now you probably have a new tv? New car? New suit? It’s a disgrace. No wonder no international country of any repute wants to have anything to do with Zimbabwe. And all along it’s the people that suffer. I don’t know how you sleep at nights.

"a proud and professional govt like the Zim Govt" Hah ha ha ha ha ha haha haaaa haha ha hah ah ha ha ha ha ahhahha hha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha haaaa haha ha hah ah ha ha ha ha ahhahha hha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha haaaa haha ha hah ah ha ha ha ha ahhahha hha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha haaaa haha ha hah ah ha ha ha ha ahhahha hha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha haaaa haha ha hah ah ha ha ha ha ahhahha hha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha haaaa haha ha hah ah ha ha ha ha ahhahha hha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha haaaa haha ha hah ah ha ha ha ha ahhahha hha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha haaaa haha ha hah ah ha ha ha ha ahhahha hha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha haaaa haha ha hah ah ha ha ha ha ahhahha hha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha haaaa haha ha hah ah ha ha ha ha ahhahha hha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha haaaa haha ha hah ah ha ha ha ha ahhahha hha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha haaaa haha ha hah ah ha ha ha ha ahhahha hha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha haaaa haha ha hah ah ha ha ha ha ahhahha hha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha haaaa haha ha hah ah ha ha ha ha ahhahha hha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haha haaaa haha ha hah ah ha ha ha ha ahhahha hha ha ha ha ha ha you're killing! Stop it! Hahah I think I have a tear in my eye from laughing so much.

Awt_independent, Why did they not send drugs instead of money? There is no way a sane person can bring money from outside Zimbabwe, where the drugs are, and expect the same money to be sent back outside the country to buy drugs it should have bought in the first place. There is no logic in what you are saying. If you had said that drugs were there in Zimbabwe when this money was "deposited" I would have understood but this, what you are saying, is pure stupidity.

Takunya,

I'm just quoting off international recongnised news agencies that have clearly stated that "The Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria says $7.3 million of the $12.3 million it deposited into its Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe account last year did not go to fight the three diseases that are devastating southern Africa." Are you saying that the Global fund is stupid too?

According to the same article "Other aid groups have reported difficulties assessing their own funds once they are deposited in Zimbabwe's central bank".

So sounds like pretty common practice for aid agencies to deposit money into the RBZ.

Are you clasping at straws again Takunya? Have once again I proven you to be the fool? I suspect so...

Awt_independent, There is nothing like that, Zimbawean laws are very clear on the opening of FCA accounts. They are therefore clearly lying. Only Commercial Banks open accounts with the RBZ. It is either they do not know what they are talking about or they are just trying to blow a petty issue out of proportion for propaganda purposes.

The issue that is clearly coming out from what you have said so far is that they are just trying to find a way of not providing the next batch of aid. SIMPLE AND STRAIGHT FORWARD and this is clearly as a result of pressure from Britain and America who are interested in seeing Zimbabweans die in their millions so that they could come and occupy our land again.

The diplomat you have been talking about all along is clearly a CIA imbedded with the NGO, like you, who is out to demonise the govt of Zimbabwe. That is why he did not want to be identified. It is just that simple. Because if surely they have a legitimate case, which they do not have, why not come in the open, why have someone in Washington issue a statement when they should be a representative of the Global fund in Harare? He is the one on the ground and should be the one to comment based on his interaction with relevant officials.

Takunya,

I suggest you read this

http://allafrica.com/stories/200811041119.html

Before you continue with your paranoid delusional BS!

At the end of the day, money that was meant for the people of Zimbabwe is missing. And the corrupt government of Zimbabwe, headed by Mugabe is 100% responsible.

You just cant argue with the facts now can you!

Seems that RBZ has admitted they stole the funds and say they will repay it within a week. So much for your arguments. I note that there is a dramatic rise in violence by Zanu, and the police are chasing MDC people again with arrests that have no basis. Is this the laws that you allude to in Zimbabwe?

This post was deleted because it contravenes AllAfrica's commenting guidelines.

Icho must be a Zanu Pf benefactor what is wrong with holding peaceful elections ?

icho, you do not seem to be objective in what ever you write all the time. Try to be reasonable when it comes to dealing with Human beings. I am a Zambian but you irritate me, can Mugabe and Zimbabwe wake up? Zambians will never go to the extent of fighting, free and fair elections are the norm. Mugabe should go, Kaunda after ruling almsot the same number of years like Mugabe did not have a problem living office when it was time up. Mugabe should go, for the sake of serving human life.

Ian Khama is the legitimate president of Botswana according to the laws of Botswana - that is his standing. All he is calling for is for Zimbabwean leaders to similarly respect their own laws. Every truly patriotic Zimbabwean knows that the country is in a mess because our leaders have shamelessly failed to uphold the rule of law during the Gukurahundi crisis that ended in 1987 and then since 1997.

President Khama is absolutely correct here. Robert Mugabe himself has said that zanu-pf and MDC are like oil and water. They cannot work together until much of the bitterness has been erased over time. The only solution is properly supervised and monitored elections carried out on the basis of an up to date electoral role and with an impartial media environment (local and international). The result should then be enforced and guaranteed by the AU/SADC with the help of a post election peace keeping force.

Thereafter there needs to be a truth and reconciliation commission which can become the outlet for the bitterness of all Zimbabweans; only then can the wounds start to heal and the country begin to re-build. This will require the granting of amnestys in exchange for honest and complete testimony; it worked in SA and will work in Zimbabwe.

This unelected, deranged Botswana leader should leave our nation alone..Zimbabwe is an independent, sovereign nation and he should back off from our internal affairs...The irony here is that Khama who has never faced a general election has the guts to challenge the revolutionary party, zanu pf which has consistently submitted itself to elections on numerous occasions since 1980..Khama is a danger to SADC frontline states spirit of solidarity..This disgraceful irritant is so obssessed with Zimbabwe. & he's not even ashamed that his tirades are being routnely ignored by Zanu pf and the rest of progressive SADC nations...Isn't he the same figure who was in Harare to witness the historic powersharing aggreement??We all know that Khama was approached by the United States so that they could establish Africom military base in Southern Africa..However other progressive Sadc states have categorically stated that they will never allow the US to set up a military base in our region..Therefore, it's clear that Khama is using Zimbabwe as a convinient issue ,in an effort to break ranks with other SADC leaders then he later allows the United States to establish the military base in Botswana.. Well, Khama keeps harping about violence..Maybe as arrogant as he is , he's not yet aware that MDC-T admitted that its supporters actively took part in the april to june orgy of violence..The Western sponsored proxies admitted this in a joint statement with Zanu pf in july..Therefore Khama , munhu ari kutozvipengerawo zvake, saka he's being ignored and he doesn't even realise it...Khama urgently needs to accept reality that the next general election will be held the year 2013.And the absolute fact that His Excellency President R.G Mugabe is now recognised by the whole of Africa..Cde Mugabe will have the honour and priviledge to host the COMESA summit in December and assume its chairmanship.,Therefore i would like to applaud the revolutionary party Zanu pf ,and the rest the rightly thinking SADC leaders for ignoring the nonsensical utterances by this pathetic, unelected Botswana leader,Khama

Since when is the butcher of harare, mugabe elected? Surely you need free and fair elections, recognised by the international community, including the AU and SADC for that to be true. We all know Mugabe's position is a farce.

So what if Botswana want to host a US military base in their country. What business is this of yours? Rather hypercritical to be critisizing Khama for meddling in Zim affairs when you are doing the same in the other direction.

And yes, the MDC-T admitted that its supporters defendended themselves against some very harsh intimidation from Mugabe. If Mugabe had allowed the election to be free and fair, there would have been no violence and Zim wouldnt be in the position its in today. You cant beat a group of people relentlessly and expect no retaliation. Its human nature. The question is, what was the root cause of the violence, and the answer is clearly Mugabe.

And it is not "absolute fact that His Excellency President R.G Mugabe is now recognised by the whole of Africa"

What nonsense. The SADC and AU both said that the elections were neither free nor fair. So stop talking nonsense.

Sets a dangerous precident dont you think? You lose an election, so you just beat up the opposition, murder your way back into power. Worked for Mugabe.

One more thing, at least Khama has the will of the people behind him. Its a shame Mugabe will never have it. Especially after what has happened this year. People have a long long memory when they have been terrorised.

Well said Cde Mabhiza, nothing more to add, surfice it to say I hope the head of the military junta in Botswana not only hears this loud and clear but also understands what we are trying to put accross to him as peaceful neighbours - GOOD NEIGHBOURLINESS IS ALWAYS PARAMOUNT.

Is the Zim army even being paid at the moment? You might want to watch that... haha.

Thanx Cde Takunya, You know...The coolness and calm that His Excellency President R.G Mugabe has maintained ever since Khama started his tirades against Zim underscores the deep gulf that exists between an experienced revolutionary statesman like Cde Mugabe and a compromised numbskull like Khama....The class act from Zanu pf in the face of Khama's extremely provocative utterances should be commended..So Khama can shout until he turns blue on the face but he'll only be making a compelete idiot of himself........

Mabhiza, why do you support a man who beats your father, rapes your wife and murders your children to keep power?

Awt_independent, President Mugabe has never done what you allege and will never do it. President Mugabe came from the people and like fish in water he will remain in the masses. He therefore cannot murder himself, how? President Mugabe is a revolutionary and is a tested leader. Eleven years under detention and being tortured everyday but he never compromised. He remained steadfast and focused because he knew what he wanted to achieve - freedom for his people, total independence and 100% empowerment for his people.

He came out of jail and continued to fight for the people and with the people in the bush everyday of his stay in exile. In 1980 he extended a hand of reconciliaation to those who tortured him, those who murdered his people in cold blood. He tolerated insults from Smith, Peter Walls, Bennett, David Coltat and many others because he is a mature and respecting father - Akabva kuvanhu.

Today you say he rapes, murders and beats people, you can only be a mad baboon to say that to a man like Mugabe. Uri imbwa inoruma munhu anoipa sadza!!

...the not honerable robert mugabe is responsible for, as he put it, "a moment of madness" that led to the genocidal ethnic cleansing of 20,000 Ndebele people. He also is head of the 14th most corrupt government in the world, has millions of dollars in overseas accounts while his country suffers. He is also responsible for unleashing a wave of terror and attrocity against his own people to win a run off election and to keep power illegitimately. He is also responsible for turning the bread basket of africa into the disaster we see today due to his land reform programs that have given productive farms to politicians on his gravy train that do not know how to farm, and thus made these farms unproductive. He is also responsible for cracking down on freedom of speech, a basic human right through not allowing media to report freely within his country. I could go on for days.

And yes, today, I do say that he rapes, murders and beats people, look what happened during the election. Zimbabwe became a farce and the rest of the world got to see it.

..."Mabhiza, why do you support a man who beats your father, rapes your wife and murders your children to keep power?".... Awt, he loves it! It's just the kind of bloke he is I guess.

Mabizo...oops,Mabizha,damn,mazhuba...whatever and all you friends who claim to be Zimbabweans,I dont think you are...If you were you would not be saying that...In all the countries neighbouring Zimbabwe there is an influx of Zimbabweans,some legally cross the boarders and many of them cross to these countries(SA,Bots,Nam,Moz,Malawi etc)ellegally.These poor Zimbos face hardships in those countries..some are raped and abused.Some work as Maids and Herdmen with their Degrees and Diplomas and you see that as just ok...?maybe you havent seen what im talkin about here...Face reality,find out from these countries how many Zimbos cross to their Countries daily both legally and illegally..!If you are a real Zimbo,you will change your thinking...

Mabhiza and your Zanu PF cronies who contribute to this website surely do not have touch with reality. You guys make us Zimbabweans a laughing stock because you seem not to grasp the problems affecting the common man on the street in Zimbabwe caused by bad governance of you Uncle Bob.

Cde Mabhiza - you are simply displaying your ignorance here about the manner in which presidents are appointed in Botswana. It is the same system as practised in South Africa. Why do you not berate President Kgalema Motlanthe for being unelected?

I wonder how long it will take your and Mssrs Ndebvu and Icho to call President Elect Obama an Uncle Tom when you find that US policy towards Mugabe and his gang of thugs is no different to that of the out-going administration?

Finally President (Khama) from the SADC block has spoken out about the need for new internationally supervised elections. Like the late President Mwanawasa had strongly urged the SADC members, Khama is also right in speaking out. The GNU is not working and millions are starving, dying or emigrating from Zimbabwe. Zimbabweans are becoming a burden to their neighbors and resentment has in the past led to violence. It is time to stop this carnage under Robert Mugabe!

As a Pan-Africanist, I too would have objected to international intervention, but given the current situation in Zimbabwe now…. It would be irresponsible not to act. Moreover, being a pan-Africanist does not mean you cease to think, analyze and change course if it is in the best interest of your country. It is just not true to continue with the diatribe that all that is going on in Zimbabwe is because the western world wants to rule as a “third” force. Mugabe’s propaganda is to blame for such thinking. Zimbabwe is not a major headline in western capitals nor does it have oil to warrant concerns from oil consuming countries. President Khama, now needs o be supported by the New President of South Africa. If Zimbabwe refuses, South Africa should call for sanctions against Mugabe!

There is no carnege in Zimbabwe, its only seen in your imaginations.The only carnege is being perptrated by the Americans and the British in Iraq and Afghanistan and by Tsvangirai thru sanctions imposed on us

Where is the logic in that!?

"There is no carnege (sic) in Zimbabwe.... The only carnege (sic) .....

There either is carnage or their isnt! Make up your mind!

I see you are still brainwashed to think that Tsvangi imposed sanctions on you.

It was actually George Bush, and the sanctions arent on you, they are on the Government of Zimbabwe. Unless that you are in the govenrment, which, judging by your intellect, I severly doubt. Actually, its the ZANU PF we're talking about is it. I take that back.

Takunya, Mabhiza & Icho. There is help for people like you out there. My suggestion is take it before it becomes too late for you three sad cases. The comments that come from you make me sic and i would be pretty sure that im not the only one. How can you have so little regard for Human Life?

Mugabe knows that if there were free and fair elections, with international observers, and no threat of death, rape etc if you vote for the MDC, that he wouldnt have a hope in hell of winning the election.

If you dont agree, why not lets have an election and find out? If Mugabe truely belives the people of Zim are behind him, then why does he not just have an election, let people observe it, not rig it, and take control away from the MDC...

Phiri, I notice you concur that people are dying from the sanctions that Tsvangirai campaigned for. How then can a person who is starving (I mean starving), who is lying on a death bed suffering from aids, who cannot be operated on because the theatre machines have broken down for lack of spare parts caused by sanctions, who is pregnant but cannot see a doctor because the doctor demands payment in forex, go out to vote in a Khama-advocated re-run?

Even a sellout, even a stooge, even a retarded idiot should be able to see that the priority now and I mean now, is to provide food, and medicine to the people. Elections are obviously coming and elsewhere, I addressed this issue adequately, surfice it to say if Khama understands re-run to come after people are well fed, roads have been repaired, children are going to school again, hospitals have medicines, then we concur with him. Otherwise the priority of govt now is to feed its people.

Khama is detached from the suffering in Zimbabwe. The people who cross into Botswana to shop are not a true reflection of the suffering of our people under Tsvangirai's begged sanctions. There are people who cannot even afford to bus-fare (that is if the bus is there) to travel 50 km to receive one bucket of maize meal. These are the people we are concerned about and not those who have the money to shop in Botswana.

Lastly, Phiri, I know Pan-Africanists to be persistent and consistent. The moment a Pan-Africanist changes course he is no longer a Pan-Africanist. What ideals should a Pan-Africanist follow? What principles does a Pan-Africanist follow? What dictates should a Pan-Africanist follow?

The appropriate/proper name for a person who abandons Pan-Africanism is a SELLOUT, PERIOD. You are a living example of a sellout who wants short term gains as opposed to long term gains. You are a disgrace to Pan-Africanists.

Takunya. You and I both know that Tsvangirai has never called for any sanctions against the people of Zimbabwe. You know this is just your silly transparent propaganda and you seem to repeat it continually, even though we continuallly prove your 'evidence' to be false. You have stated many times that Tsvangirai has called for santions. If he has done this many times as you say, where is the evidence? You said that Tsvangi called for sanctions on BBC HardTalk in 2000. I showed you that Tsvangi didnt actually appear on BBC HardTalk in 2000. You removed the "in 2000" and said that Tsvangi called for sanctions on BBC HardTalk. I showed you the the interview that Tsvangi had on BBC HartTalk on youtube, and showed you that not once did Tsvangi call for sanctions on it. When Katz then asked you if you had more evidence, you stated that you did, "but now that you have your conclusions I will not give you the address". You'd think if you are so desperate to show that Tsvangi called for sanctions, you would be posting this evidence everywhere. If you had it. Which you dont. You then stated that "Tsvangi was in South Africa pleading with that country to impose sanctions by cutting of electricity, trade and transport links with Zimbabwe". Irrelavent of whether he did or did not call for these sanctions, the electricity, trade and transport links to South Africa remain in perfectly fine working order, and thus have not caused the state of the economy we see today. When are you going to stop lying?

Phiri,I think you lack a clear understanding of the term "Pan-Africanism"..It doesn't make any sense when you claim to be a pan africanist and at the same time you go against pan africanist ideals...Now ,Pan africanist organisations like, SADC, AU ,Comesa etc have all roundly condemned the ruinous Western inteference into Zimbabwe's internal affairs and also strongly condemned the illegal economic sanctions imposed by Western countries on ordinary Zimbabweans, but Phiri supports all these destructive Western actions...Phiri, you claim to be a pan africanist and yet you support an anti-pan african outfit like the MDC-T, that was created by Britain in an effort to torpedo pro black land reforms...For your own information,Phiri you can never claim to be a pan africanist and at the same time supporting a pro imperialist party like MDC-T., that is being used by Britain and United States to frustrate The Zimbabwean revolution from its logical conclusion...

It was because of President Mugabe's resolute decision to compulsorily acquire land from British settlers, after Britain reneged on their lancaster house obligations to fund land reform in Zim that his gvt was earmarked for regime change..and a puppet opposition, MDC was created by Britain as a racist turnkey machine to unseat the revolutionary party zanu pf and torpedo land reform programme and other subsequent pro black policies..

Therefore ,Phiri, you can never claim to be a pan africanist and at the same time supporting a party created by White racists , Apatheid remnants, Ex Rhodies who were reacting against Zanu pf's Third chimurenga land reclamation programme....So Phiri, its better for you to avoid using that term "pan africanism" kana usingasive zvarinoreva.....

The SADC and AU also condemned the Zimbabwean run off election as being unfair and unfree.

As for the "illegal economic sanctions imposed by Western countries on ordinary Zimbabweans" you and I both know there are no such things.

Well said Cde Mabhiza. If Phiri was a Pan-Africanist as per his claim I am sure he will think twice before continuing with his blind, unPan-Africanist support of imperialist interests at the expense of Pan-Africanist interests.

Whats wrong with you man? Another Zanu stray hound on loose. Tell your leaders to address the economic situation and stop killing our families.

Rock, If you are Zimbabwean then it is you who is killing your own family members by supporting Tsvangirai's call for sanctions against Zimbabwe. Now the economic difficulties are affecting all Zimbabweans regardless of whether they called for sanctions or not. It is high time you call a spade a spade. Tsvangirai is the one to blame for most of the suffering in Zimbabwe today because of his stupidity and foolishness in campaigning for sanctions on Zimbabwe.

Takunya, you and I both know that Tsvangirai never called for any sanctions against the people of Zimbabwe. You have no evidence of this, and its just a figment of your imagination. We all know that if you had any evidence you would be boasting it left right and centre. You only say this to divide the people of Zimbabwe and alienate Tsvangirai from his many many supporters. Do you think this is helpful? In times like this when Zimbabaweans should be coming together you seek to divide the people. Why is this?

Mabhiza - you say "It was because of President Mugabe's resolute decision to compulsorily acquire land ...(that) MDC was created by Britain as a racist turnkey machine to unseat the revolutionary party zanu pf and torpedo land reform programme and other subsequent pro black policies.." - Tell me how clever the British are then to have created the MDC a year BEFORE the forced land acquisitions began?

Your view of recent history is pretty sketchy considering that these are events of only a few years ago. The MDC was created in 1999 out of widespread dissatisfaction with a poorly performing economy in Zimbabwe. They trounced Zanu-pf in the 2000 referendum and some weeks after this humiliation Mugabe let loose the so called war vets to grab the farms in an attempt to reverse his political fortunes.

The history books of a new Zimbabwe will let the children know what the actual chronology of events were, not your politically inspired mush.

Katz, man ...The decision by Zanu-pf to compulsorily acquire farms from British settlers didn't start in the year 2000, as you read in Western media..President Mugabe initiated the decision to reclaim land well before the MDC was created....In 1997, John Major of the Conservative party lost the British election to Tony Blair of the Labour Party...The administrations of Margaret Thatcher and John Major(Both Conservatives) Had consistently honoured their Lancaster House obligations to finance the "willing buyer, willing seller" system of land reform..

In 1997, the new Labour party under Tony Blair made it clear that they were not willing to fund Zimbabwe's land reform in a letter writen by one Claire Short, the then British international development secretary...In this letter Britain announced that they were to stop funding land reform programme..The letter was delivered to the then Minister of Agriculture Kumbirai Kangai....From then on British-Zimbabwe relations were never the same again...That same year, when the Former freedom fighters were enlightened of the developments , they were enraged that Britain had betrayed Zimbabwe..Britain had shown flagrant disregard of an agreement the conservative party and the Patriotic Party(Zanu and Zapu) signed in 1979..

Consequently the intense anger by landless peasants over the land issue boiled over and sparked the widespread farm invasions from late 1997 till they got worse 1998 early 1999..The most famous one being at Svosve(1998)It is for this reason that President Mugabe consistently made it clear from 1997 up to early 1999 that he will be left with no choice but to compulsorily acquire land from British settlers,..I recall him saying that at one of his last Commonwealth Summit in Edinburgh Scotland (1998) that he was losing patience with Tony Blair's attitude, & he'll spearhead a land reclamation policy soon....

Well, everyone knows that President Mugabe is a man of his words therefore, Britain knew exactly what was on the verge of unfolding in near future..It is because of President Mugabe's decision to compulsorily acquire land from British settlers that 3 main British parties ,the conservatives, Labour and Liberal Democrats set aside their differences and came together under the aegis of the Westminister Fund in 1999 and provided funding for the launch of a racist turnkey machine MDC in a bid to quickly unseat Zanu pf and derail the inevitable land reclamation movement..Britain knew precisely which individuals they would put at the helm of the MDC..They settled for an organistion that was powerful at that time(ZCTU)led by Tsvangirai and Gibson Sibanda,who were constently at loggerheads with the Gvt.,ZCTU followers had left a trail of destruction in the 1998 food riots..Therefore these 2 guys are the ones Britain put at the helm of their creation..The rest of the MDC members were to come from student movements,civic society and the universities..

Therefore President Mugabe couragiously decided to acquire land from British settlers soon after Tony Blair reneged on the lancaster house promise to fund land refom in 1997...The real land reform programme, resettling of landless peasants and re-establishment of land boundaries started around april 2000 when land reform laws had to be gazzeted quickly as the nation was on the brink of civil unrest. .Therefore it is for this reason that Britain turned a purely bilateral matter into what it is today.....Britain embarked on a fierce demonisation campaign of Zimbabwe using redherrings of human rights violations,, then they mobilised European sentiment..Soon ,Australia & United States were to follow suit..Therefore land is the core of the Zimbabwe crisis......

Mabhiza... interesting post... makes good reading. The problem I, and others will have, is that you tell so many lies on here, and get found out for telling these lies, that when you right something that sounds plausible, you just cant take it seriously. And given I dont have the resources to check anything you've written, I simply cant take it as the truth.

"The real land reform programme, resettling of landless peasants and re-establishment of land boundaries started around april 2000 when land reform laws had to be gazzeted quickly as the nation was on the brink of civil unrest." -Exactly:- AFTER the formation of MDC. The facts speak for themselves; the rest of your post is non-factual and a figament of zanu-pf propaganda.

Botswana system does ot allo electing the president. Khama does not need to be elected by ordinary people. Botswana system of election is based on team work, your party has to win parliamentery election in order that you become a leader of the country. This avoids cheating as in many of the corrupt, and stupidity leaning african states.

Khama has the right to call for fresh election in Zimbabwe because Zimbaweans in Botswana are scavenging, it is out of love for the Zimbawean that he says thus. The rest of you who value politics over human rights and values, you can protect Mugabe and live poor for the rest of your lives. People who are concerned have fled your nation and they sleep in our streets, rob us and do all wrong trying to make a living, because Mugabe is not smart enough to form a government that can provide for you.

Well said.

Awt_independent, You say "Well said" to your friend Pule44 who is clearly insulting Batswana? What kind of insensitivity is that? So you agree with Pule44's assertion that the Batswana are "ordinary people" and so should not vote because they are iliterate, they do not think, somebody has to think for them? What stupidity.

Now let me tell you, Batswana people are oppressed thats why they are not allowed to vote a leader of their choice. They are not consulted to say what they want because Khama consider them to be "ordinary". As an African, this is unacceptable and I am sure it also is the same with the Batswana.

Now I see clearly why that professor, who said Botswana was not a democracy, had to be kicked out of the country through a presidential decree. No immigration laws followed and you say there is democracy? You say there is democracy in a country where people have no freedom of worship, where pastors are depoted simply because they refuse to partake in Khama's illegal manoeuvres against Zimbabwe?

What right does Khama have to call for elections in Zimbabwe when he himself has been appointed against the wishes of the people he is supposed to lead. So Khama considers the Batswana his property that why he cannot consult his servant to know whether the slave still wants to be under him or to be free.

If there was freedom in Botswana, people would be demonstrating everyday or would have taken up arms to remove Khama's military junta.

Takunya.... English is indeed your third language. You can tell by your interpretation of things.

Not once did Pule44 insult anyone from Botswana. In fact he complimented them on their electorial process saying it was based on teamwork. Clearly it has produced a result much better than your "Mugabe Democracy" - this you cant argue with. Hence Pule44's point on "This avoids cheating as in many of the corrupt, and stupidity leaning african states. "

There was no mention of anyone being illiterate, you added that in. And theres nothing wrong with being ordinary. If everyone is wierd, what does that make the ordinary person?

Khama has every right to call for elections, given the flood of Zimbabwes running into Botswana from the disaster that is in Zimbabwe as a result of Mugabes government. That makes it his problem too.

And I'll think you'll find that if there was freedom in Zimbabwe... thats where the protests would be...

Awt_independent, What "team work" are you talking about when people are not allowed to make their individual choices? That is bullshit. That is utter stupidity on your part if you think Khama's version of "team work" is synonymous with democracy. You are still too far away from knowing and understanding your own language. I am better than you, I have now seen it and it has proved itself for everybody to see.

Takunya.... how many people died in the US election? Whats the economic situation like in Botswana? Whats the security situation like in Botswana? The mere fact that Zimbabweans are desperate to leave Zimbabwe and head to places like Botswana clearly shows you there is a problem in zimbabwe dont you think?

Awt_independent, There are sanctions in Zimbabwe, campaigned for by Tsvangirai, that is why people are leaving the country. Remove sanctions against the people of Zimbabwe and see what happens. They will all come back in their thousands because we have everything in our country. You are jelous of our solid and professional human resource base, you are afraid that if you remove sanctions the country will develop faster than your countries. We will persevere, slowly but surely, until we get out of the jaws of monisters called America and Britain.

So specifically which sanctions, as you put it, against the people of Zimbabwe do you want removed? The ones that stop Government ministers from travelling, or the ones that stop arms that could potentially slaughter thousands of Zimbabweans from entering the country?

I'm still waiting for evidence that Tsvangirai campaigned for these sanctions… you don’t have it do you...

Awt_independent, If you ask a question you should learn to stop there and wait for me to answer you instead of being the referee and player at the same time. It is me who should tell you which sanctions are in place on the people of Zimbabwe and that have been campaigned for by Tsvangi. The reason why you keep harping about evidence of Tsvangirai calling for sanctions is because you are thick headed lunatic, asking a question and answering it at the same time. Besides, you mistakenly believe your own lies to the extent of closing your brains in a shell. Until you climb down from the seat you put yourself on, you will remain ignorant of the goings-on around you.

So answer if for me...

What sanctions, specifically, are you referring too?

Also,

Where do you have evidence showing that Tsvangirai campaigned for these sanctions?

I await your response...

Takunya... its funny... I read pretty much everyones posts on this thread, and they all agree with me.

You're the idiot here!

Awt_independent, I am proud to be an idiot with his country and freedom to do what I want the riches of my country. The natural and mineral resources on and under the Zimbabwean soils belong to this idiot and this idiot is proud of that.

I'm glad you can see what an idiot you are. Thats hilarious!

Awt_independent, I am also glad you recognise that the only idiot is one who sells his country to imperialists and Tsvangirai is a living example. You are another very good example of an idiot if you think we will let go of our country and leave you to colonise us once again. Once beaten twice shy!!

The mere fact you think that people want to recolonise Zimbabwe shows that you are still living in the 1970's. Its 2008!

the same profesor who was deported in zimbabwe be4 moving to botswana.you know, i used to wonder wherether you where debating to reach concesors, until i found that you a 40 year old dumb

Cde Ndebvu - clearly Pule 44 has made a point that is beyond your grasp or intellect. Not all countries have a directly elected president in the way they have in the USA or Zimbabwe.

In Botswana, as in South Africa, the UK, Canada, Australia and many many countries around the world, the electorate vote for the party of their choice. It is up to the party to elect their own leader and should that party become the elected government then that party leader would become the leader of the government.

South Africans did not vote for Thabo Mbeki or his successor; they voted for the ANC. The ANC chose to replace Mbeki and replace him with Kgalema Motlanthe. President Motlanthe is no more or less elected to his position that President Khama. ( Jacob Zuma would have been Mbeki's replacement save for the fact that he is not currently an elected member of parliament and therefore is not presently qualified to take the presidency.)

Kazt, So what is beyond my "grasp or intellect" about what you said? I am afraid it is what I said which is beyond your grasp and intellect. Democracy dictates that, anyone who aspires to occupy a position should present himself or herself to the people. And for that to happen there should always be more than one person vying for that post. Anything to the contrary is not democracy.

The fact that the system you outlined is practised in Britain, Canada, South Africa does not make it democratic. The issue is that democracy should be seen to be upheld as opposed to handpicking of an individual for a post. In the Khama situation, the system is clearly undemocratic because he contested against himself. What other choice(s) did the MPs have for the post of President of Botswana? None. Who else in the Khama party presented hiimself for election to the post of president? None. Do you call that democracy?

In South Africa, Kgalema Motlanthe was handpicked by Zuma and that can not be said to be democratic at all. Who else presented himself for possible election to replace President Mbeki? None. Who was consulted in coming up with Kgalema Motlanthe as the best candidate? None. Zuma, through his dictatorial tendencies, which are now tearing the ANC apart, single handedly decided that he would appoint Kgalema Motlanthe and he said as much when he declared that "people like Cde Motlanthe would be capable of leading SA".

By that very statement, Zuma handpicked a replacement for Mbeki. Who would have opposed such a dictator. Those who did were kicked out of the ANC and now we see the manifestation of that dictatorship as the rebel constitute themselves into an opposition formation that is going to challenge the mainstream ANC at the polls in 2009 which is sad and unfortunate for a revolutionary party like ANC.

Because of your lack of understanding and appreciation of what democracy is, you regard Brown as the legitimate Prime Minister of Britain. You know as much as I do that he was handpciked by Blair and was actually supposed to be PM before Blair. Confirmation of one to a post is not synonymous with being elected.

Today, Obama is busy selecting his cabinet some of whom have to be confirmed by Congress. We cannot then turn around and say that a minister in the Obama Administration has been elected by Congress when s/he has simply been confirmed.

Same applies to Khama, he has not been elected by the people of Botswana and therefore is illegitimate. He was handpicked by Mogae and confirmed by so-called parliament. That is not democracy at all and therefore he should stop his utterances against elected leaders like President Mugabe.

Takunya, you really are dumb. You say "In the Khama situation, the system is clearly undemocratic because he contested against himself." So by that rationale, Mugabe is also clearly undemocratic for the same reasons. Thanks for clarifying that. You've just gone and shot your whole argument in the foot with contradictory statements.

What does Democracy say about a person being murdered because they chose to vote for the opposition party? What does democracy say about opposition candidates being able to campaign freely, whay does democracy say about journalists being able to practice freedom of speech.

And you simply do not understand the british system. Blair was not elected, neither was Brown. Simply because the system dictates that a party is elected, and that party has a mandate to choose who it wants to lead. Hence when one person sits down it can appoint who it wants to the role. The same in the US. IF Obama is unable to lead, then Biden will become president. You cant say that Biden was elected can you!

Awt_independent, It is you who has contradicted yourself and by so doing shot, your self in the foot. You said "... Hence when one person sits down it can appoint who it wants to the role...." and this to you is an example of democracy when one person sits and decided who to appoint to a position that should be elected in the first place. How idiotic and stupid can you be.

By insinuating that Botswana, South Africa and Britain follow their laid down practices or constitutions, you have again shot your self in the foot because to you the constitution paramount in other countries and not Zimbabwe. The Zimbabwe constitution clearly states that a candidate in a presidential election can only withdraw his or her candidacy 21 before the elections.

Tsvangirai withdrew 4 days before the election when the law clearly considers him to be in the race. Besides, the law states that before one can withdraw, he should have, prior to reaching this decision, been informing ZEC of his concerns. Tsvangirai, at no time did he inform the ZEC of his concerns until four days before elections and yet in his letter he said the violence which was forcing him to withdraw had started after the March 29 election.

On the very day that Tsvangirai withdrew, polling officers were two days at their stations, police officers had already been deployed, ballot papers were on their way to the various polling stations and you tell me that ".... by that rationale, Mugabe is also clearly undemocratic for the same reasons" when we were clearly operating within the law of our land. At law, therefore, Tsvangirai was still effectively in the race and that was reflected by the number of votes he got, which implied that his name and party symbol were still on the ballot paper.

The problem was and still is that Tsvangirai listens too much to his CIA handlers, like you Awt_independent, who feed him with half-cooked intelligence assessments, that is why he cannot take a decision of his own. He is so dumb and daft as to think that by swinging with McGee he can get people's support. He is very stupid and idiotic and is so retarded to the extent that it is safe to say that the round thing above his shoulders in just a shell with no brains.

If Tsvangirai feels intimidated by the overwhelming support that Zanu pf has, I do not think that should be the concern of democracy but of the stooge who is incapable for selling his policies to the people. Anyone who wants to campaign can do so in Zimbabwe but always within the law. The press is free to operate in my country as long as they register with the relevant authorities.

The Daily News for example categorically refused to register as per the requirements of the law and clearly no sane govt would allow them to operate outside the law simply because they do not agree with the particular legislation. I am sure, even in your America, that will be asking for too much.

Elsewhere on this forum, NOT ONCE, but many times I have addressed the issue of violence. There was no party orchestrated violence on MDC. This is the other problem with MDC, they want to claim every dead body in Zimbabwe even of those who drown trying to cross a flooded river.

This is not to imply that there was no violence during the elections, but certainly it was not to the scale presented by MDC. Skirmishes took place and a number of people were killed on both sides of the political divide and that was regrettable. But to say that Zanu pf was solely responsible for the death of 130 people is naked propaganda.

I know of close to 10 war veterans who were killed by MDC youths led by some of the MDC MPs in Parliament today. What I disagree with is to blanketly say that everybody who dies during an election is as a result of political violence. If two people from opposing parties fight over a prostitute, should that be regarded as political violence?

Do not tell me that the MDC was retaliating because the law is blind to the doctrine of an eye-for-an-eye. Nobody in Zimbabwe is allowed to take the law into their own hands and that includes Tsvangi and his thugs. Whoever is aggrieved is entitled to protection by the police and if they feel that the local police are partisan they can approach the Commissioner General of Police and if that does not work he can even take the police force to court.

Takunya, you have clearly lied.

1) The constitution clearly states that the run off election must be held within 3 weeks of the first election.

2) You say "The Zimbabwe constitution clearly states that a candidate in a presidential election can only withdraw his or her candidacy 21 before the elections."

Therefore Tsvangirai would have had to withdraw before the first election was even held.

Once again I prove you to be a lying fool.

I didnt even bother reading the rest of your crap. From experience, its just lies lies and more lies. So why waste my time.

Awt_independent, You need to read our constitution again. The section dealing with 3 weeks is not read independent of other sections on the same matter. ZEC has upto three months from the day of the announcement of results to conduct a run-off. In any case the 3 weeks you talk of expired while Tsvangirai was still debriefing his handlers and supervising his militia in Botswana and so could not have withdrawn before registering for the re-run. Therefore there was amble time for Tsvangirai to withdraw within the stipulated time had he not been listening too much to McGee.

PLEASE IGNORE ANY POSTS FROM TAKUNYA_NDEBVU AND MABHIZA. THEY ARE BOTH THE SAME PERSON AND PAID BY THE ZANU PF'S MINISTRY OF INFORMATION (PROPOGANDA DEPARTMENT) TO POST AS MUCH PROPOGANDA ON THE WEB AS POSSIBLE TO PROMOTE THE MURDEROUS AND THEIVING ROBERT MUGABE. IF YOU READ ANY OF HIS POSTS YOU'LL SEE THAT HE MAKES THINGS UP AND CONTINUALLY LIES FOR THIS AIM. HE HAS NO CREDIBILITY WHATSOEVER AND SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY. HE WILL CONTINUALLY CLAIM THAT TSVANGIRAI HAS CALLED FOR SANCTIONS AGAINST THE PEOPLE OF ZIMBABWE. THIS CLAIM IS 100% FALSE AND DESIGNED TO ALIENATE TSVANGIRAI FROM THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE IN ZIMBABWE THAT SUPPORT HIM. HE HAS NO EVIDENCE OF THIS, AND WILL TRY TO TELL YOU THAT THIS HAPPENED ON BBC HARDTALK. IF YOU LOOK UP TSVANGIRAI'S INTERVIEW ON HARDTALK THROUGH YOUTUBE, YOU WILL SEE THERE ARE NO MENTION OF SANCTIONS AT ALL. IT IS SIMPLY A LIE, LIKE THE REST OF HIS POSTS. HE IS ALSO UNABLE TO NAME A SINGLE SANCTION THAT SITS AGAINST THE PEOPLE OF ZIMBABWE AND HAS NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT ANY OF HIS CLAIMS AND LIES BLATANTLY ON A CONSTANT BASIS. HE WILL ALSO CALL ANY PERSON WHO IS AGAINST THE TRYANNY AND GENOCIDAL REIGN OF MUGABE WHO ARGUES WITH HIM ANY NAME UNDER THE SUN IN AN ATTEMPT TO DISCREDIT THEM. SO PLEASE DONT WASTE YOUR TIME WITH TAKUNYA, HE IS A CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF WHY YOU SHOULD NEVER ARGUE WITH A (SELF PROFESSED!)IDIOT. HE'LL ONLY BRING YOU DOWN TO HIS LEVEL AND BEAT YOU WITH EXPERIENCE.

Cde Ndebvu - so rather than acknowledge your error, you now argue that Britain, South Africa, Botswana, Canada, Australia etc etc are undemocratic countries unlike Zimbabwe where true democracy exists. Right?

Well yesterday Jakaya Kikwete, the President of Tanzania and current chairman of the African Union singled out Zimbabwe as one of the diminishing number of countries in Africa where democracy does NOT exist. Why don't you drop him a line and point out the error of his ways?

By the way, President Kikwete made his comments whilst arguing that the principle of non-interference in member states was no longer appropriate in modern Africa. The winds of change are going to blow you and your ilk out of Zimbabwe; and I suspect that with the election of Barack Obama those winds will very soon be blowing a gale!

Katz, If one of the most important principles of democracy, for one who aspires to occupy a public position, is to subject oneself to the people's will then the countries you mentioned are undemocratic. If this principle has changed with the coming of Bush and Blair/Brown then the opposite is true.

It is common knowledge that you cannot have one person, as Awt_independent said, deciding who occupies a post like the post of a president of a country. Hence if what Awt said is anything to go by about the way the new South African President was selected then the process was totally undemocratic and therefore Motlanthe is illegitimate - no question about that.

The same applies to Khama, the day he was appointed Vice President is the very day he resigned as the head of the Botswana armed forces. Is there democracy there. If there was democracy, before taking up the post of Vice President Khama should have been subjected to the people together with others aspirants and who ever would have come out of that process would take the reins of power.

If, when Obama takes over the reins of power in America in January 2009, and along the way he is unable to perform his duties, then his deputy can take over because he was subjected to the will of the people. But you cannot have Sarah Palin, who together with her running mate, were rejected by the people of America, to take over, even temporarily, from Obama as she would not have the mandate of the people.

When he finally took over from Mogae, Khama did not subject himself to the will of the people neither were other people given the chance to also vie for the post of president. Khama is therefore illegitimate. But it is not his illegitimacy or otherwise that we are opposed to. We are against Khama's stupid, idiotic and illogical suggestion that we go for election when people are suffering from the sanctions that he himself is part of. Khama is so daft as to think that a mere election will bring food on people's tables, will bring medicines/drugs in our hospitals and pharmacies, will strengthen our currency(minus production), will stop Zimbabweans from crossing into Botswana and all the other problems we are facing.

Nothing will change and if anything the situation will get worse because we waste three months campaigning for an election instead of ploughing our fields and planting food crops for our people. We are sure to divert our attention from the core responsibility of feeding the people. We are certainly going to divert the meagre resources we have and channel them towards a useless election. Khama knows that Zimbabwe is not like Botswana which accepts filthy lucre from imperialists just to allow them to dictate and run things in his country.

You allege that Jakaya Kekwete said he is going to interfer in the affairs of Zimbabwe although you do not say whether he is going to do that militarily, diplomatically or otherwise. Well, until I know under what circumstances he said those words I reserve my comment, surfice it to say Zimbabwe does not brooke any interference from any quarter whatsoever. Zimbabwe is ready and prepared to sit down with anyone who genuinely wants to find a solution to the problems in our country, some of which are as a result of the sanctions that Tsvangirai campaigned for.

What Zimbabwe will never accept is for someone to shout at the top of their voices, from Mt Kilimanjaro, to please their masters. Zimbabwe is run by a mature crop of revolutionaries who believe in sitting down under a tree, around a table or fire, to discuss any issue until a solution is found. There is no problem that is so big as to fail to be overcome.

As such there are a number of questions that arises from your posts; Under what circumstances was that statement made? What is the background to that statement? Whom was Kikwete talking to? Who were his intended audiences? What was discussed, prior to making this statement, behind closed doors? Who was he discussing with? All that is relevant information for me to give you an appropriate answer. I say so because people, especially politicians, say different things to different audiences but they will be talking about the same subject matter.

We can comment authoritatively on Botswana and Khama have come out in the open as to their stance on Zimbabwe. We know for sure that Khama has trained and armed and is harbouring a militia ready to deploy in Zimbabwe. We know that Khama is supporting a group of Zimbabweans who demonstrate at the Zim Embassy in that country under an organisation called Boasicoz. Two thirds of people who will be demonstrating are Zimbabweans.

We are aware that through Khama sponsorship and unwavering support Boasicoz has helped to create similar gressure groups in Zambia, Malawi South Africa and were recently in Mozambique in their bid to create what they are calling ZIMOSA which is to be used to recruit Zimbabweans for military training. Representative from the above countries were there and spoke at the said meeting.

We also know that Americans have established a military base in that country which might be the one they are using to train militias for Tsvangirai. When Mutambara said that the only route for Zimbabwe was dialogue and categorically stated that if dialogue fails the country was going to slide into civil war, he meant exactly this and I am sure he was privy to this information that is now coming out. We also are well aware that Botswana is host to a relay station (boaster) that is being used to broadcast propaganda and hate to Zimbabweans.

As for Obama, well we await his pronouncements on Zimbabwe before we can make any judgements but surfice it to say if Obama is going to stand by his call for change in America's foreign policy then we are going to see the situation in Zimbabwe being amicably resolved. If Obama can sit down with Iran, a country Bush and his regime love to hate, if he can see the possibility of sitting at a round table with Cuba, if he can sit down with North Korea, I do not see why he cannot do the same with Zimbabwe. The age in which we are is not one of unilateralism, it is an age of dialogue and tolerance and I think Obama will be man enough to stand by his word.

Takunya, please dont misquote me. I think you need to learn how to read, and that includes comprehension so you can add meaningful posts to this site.

I said "when one person sits down it can appoint who it wants to the role"

Where it is the party that the person sitting down comes from. If it was one person, I would have said he or she.

I'm suprised you missed that one, since when has a person been an 'it'?

So your comment: "It is common knowledge that you cannot have one person, as Awt_independent said, deciding who occupies a post like the post of a president of a country."

Is therefore misleading and wrong.

Awt_independent, That statement is not misleading at because I quoted you verbatim. I did not change anything, actually I copied and pasted that statement. If you were to read you post again you will discover that you were referring to one person sitting down and deciding. I took it as an oversight, which is normal when one is typing, on your part to use the word 'it'. Just tell the world that you did not mean to say what you typed, we will understand because to erre is human.

Takunya, you need to learn how to read. The full quote is as follows:

"Simply because the system dictates that a party is elected, and that party has a mandate to choose who it wants to lead. Hence when one person sits down it can appoint who it wants to the role."

Clearly 'it' refers to the party, if I had meant the person sitting down, I would have said "he/she".

Pretty basic english really. So firstly learn how to read, secondly dont quote me unless you actually understand what it is I say, and thirdly dont use my points to back up your arguments, because you have no arguments, and I will not be seen to be helping out anyone that supports a genocidal murderer called Mugabe.

Awt_independent, You are trying to justify a clear mistake that you made. Just own up man, to erre is human. You said and I quote once more, "...Hence when one person sits down it can appoint who it wants to the role."

"Tt" there does not refer to the party because before the "it" you said "...when one person sits down.." so there is no way "it" could refer to the party coz you are not talking about a party but "one person" sitting down to choose a name. What you are saying now is what you intended to put across and not what the statement says.

Your statement clearly advocates that one person can choose a name and have the party to endorse that name for the post of president as in the case of Zuma and the new SA President. So, therefore, because at the beginning of the process there was only one person selecting a name it means the whole process becomes illegitimate, hence undeomcratic.

Takunya,

Its not my fault you dont understand english, and I shouldnt have to waste my time educating you.

What I said was... "Simply because the system dictates that a party is elected, and that party has a mandate to choose who it wants to lead. Hence when one person sits down it can appoint who it wants to the role."

I noticed that I used the word 'it' twice. I mean, "it" isnt a difficult word, even for someone who is beginning with the english language like yourself.

Clearly this is not saying that "at the beginning of the process there was only one person selecting a name it means the whole process becomes illegitimate, hence undeomcratic."

Irrelvent to how you interpret what I say, the system in Britain does not allow one person to decide who will be Prime Minister, as you state. So once again I show you to be wrong. It happens all the time! Must be so embarrasing for you!

Awt_independent, What you are saying does not change the meaning of your statement. If you were referring to a party why then did you put "...when one person sits down..."? Pretty simple, How can one person sit down and that one person becomes a party? You are clearly wrong on this one but would not want to admit it. Even your friends can see that you have messed things up there.

You clearly dont understand English here, its plain for all to see, but, as I said, Irrelvent to how you interpret what I say, the system in Britain does not allow one person to decide who will be Prime Minister, as you state. So once again I show you to be wrong. It happens all the time! Must be so embarrasing for you!

Awt_independent, I am not interpretting what you said but just putting it as it is. I quoted you verbatim but you still deny writing it when it is there for everybody to see. Try another trick. I have clearly shown you to be inconsistent and lying.

You were quoting verbatim, but also selectively. You need to full quote, else you remove the context.

I said, and have always said, remaining consistent and telling the truth, that:

"Simply because the system dictates that a party is elected, and that party has a mandate to choose who it wants to lead. Hence when one person sits down it can appoint who it wants to the role."

You see, gives the actual meaning, rather than trying to twist the truth as you clearly have tried to do. Clearly when you include the full quote, it points out that the it clearly refers to the party. And as I said, if I had meant the person, I would have said he or she, rather than it.

I could just quote verbatim your post as "Awt_independent, I am ... clearly ... inconsistent and lying." But would that be correct? I did quote you verbatim afterall....

I'm not sure why this is difficult for you. It really is 8 year old english lessons we are dealing with here.

Awt_independent, If the "it" "...clearly refers to the party", what about the "...one person sits down..."? Why would one person sit down when it should be a party that sits down? I presume "one person" can be interchanged with a "party". Can I therefore replace one person with party if they are one and the same thing?

So when Tony Blair sat down from his role as PM, did the party have to sit down?

I dont know why this is so difficult for you.

So no, you cannot therefore replace one person with party as they are cleary not one and the same thing

Takunya, just for the record, your lack of understanding of basic english makes you look like a fool.

Awt_independent, It makes me "...look like a fool" but in actual fact am not. So who is a fool? Awt_indepedent.

Um you. Your basic standing of english shows you to be a fool

"Simply because the system dictates that a party is elected, and that party has a mandate to choose who it wants to lead. Hence when one person sits down it can appoint who it wants to the role."

Pretty simple really, the above sentence clearly shows that the party gets to choose who it can appoint. You dont understand the word "it". Is there a more basic word in English? Therefore you are the fool!

Cde Ndebvu - a very long response from you; but in a nutshell you are saying:

a. You do not believe that a system of parliamentary government that has worked sucessfully for hundreds of years and has lead to stable workable governments in countries as different as India and Canada or South Africa and the United Kingdom are democratic simply because their premiers are picked by the party elected into power by their citizens. Well good luck to you. I doubt many citizens amongst the hundreds and hundreds of millions under this system of government would regard Robert Mugabe as a better alternative.

b You are certain that President Khama is hosting trained militia who are preparing to invade Zimababwe. Well - that clown Chinamasa has also said as much and Botswana has responded by inviting SADC's security troika to send a fact finding mission to Botswana. SADC has accepted the invitation and you can be sure that Zimbabwe will be forced to issue a diplomatic apology and retraction when the fact finding mission finds that there are no such militias. In fact zanu-pf will simply look all the more ridiculous.

Pule44, i have a strong feeling that you're not from Zimbabwe..Now ,you said that ,"it is out of love for the Zimbabweans that he says thus" in reference to probably your leader Khama's disgusting utterances..Pule44, Zimbabweans can do without that kind of "love"..Your own version of love is supporting economic sanctions on the same people you claim to love..An average Zimbabwean receives a paltry US$6 as compared to a massive US$200 on average per person that other people in SADC countries are receiving for AIDS, malaria, TB,etc per annum from various international health organisations..Why doesn't Khama speak out against this racist punishment of innocent people to show his "love" for them..We all know that progressive leaders like Mr Pohamba of Namibia and Mr Guebuza of Mozambique have frequently condemned these racist sanctions, Now Pule44, i challenge you to strongly condemn these illegal economic sanctions against innocent women and children to show your "love" for Zimbabweans, failure to do so ,you will only expose your shameless hypocrisy..

Mabhiza... what sanctions are you referring too? The ones against the travel of ministers or arms?

"illegal economic sanctions against innocent women and children" - which ones? please tell us? Oh.. there isnt any... are you lying again? Lies lies lies... its all you ever post.

Been watching and following developments in USA regarding elections. Obama was not beaten by police neither was Biden charged with "treason". Bush did not seek to change the constitution so that he gets life presidency. Bush did not sway he wants to finish off the war in Afghanstan and Iraq before leaving office neither did he say McCain was not capable. I did not see anyone being beaten up, no crashed skulls, no police and militia teargassing people. Noone went missing. Obama was not arrested 5 times in one week. That is what Khama is saying, that Zimbabweans deserve a peaceful election suprvised internationally seeing they could not hold one by themselves. Murderers, rapists, thieves and other malcontents must not be allowed to subvert democratic process and thereafter masquarade as democrats when they are despotic oppressors. Khama is right and is airing what is necessary for Zimbabweans to restore their dignity.

Elder, You did not see all of what you said because the people concerned are law abiding. This is clearly not the case with Tsvangirai and his MDC who wanted to overrun a police station in Highfields subburb of Harare. Obviously, when someone goes against the police orders to disperse, the police will read out to them the relevent laws they are breaking and if they continue to refuse, the law allows the police to use minimum force. PERIOD!!

Can we all just agree to ignore Taku, AK47, Mab, et al......

They are just trolls on this board. They never state FACTS, they always blame everyone BUT ZANU-PF/Mugabe for Zimbabwe's plight. It's always someone else's fault!

"It's the U.S. & U.K.'s "illegal" sanctions against Zimbabwe", which are in FACT, sanctions against less than 200 people!

It's because of the U.S. & U.K's "illegal" sanctions against Zimbabwe that caused the public infrastructure to implode, is causing outbreaks of cholera, hospitals that have no medicine.

It's because of the U.S. & U.K.'s "illegal" sanctions that Zimbabwe's inflation is "officially" 231 MILLION per cent! Not because the RBZ continues to print worthless currency. For some reason, Zimbabwe has plenty of paper to print currency on, but no paper to issue Morgan Tsvangirai a Passport!

Let's just ignore these idiots for the trolls they are! They are not going to be persueded. Considering the mindless blather they continue to post, I am almost certain they are at least ZANU-PF apparatchiks, if not CIO or JOC plants on this board - paid to argue against the prevailing sentiment that ZANU-PF/Mugabe MUST go!

Mabhiza, when you sit out there with your hand outstretched and begging, it does not matter how much money someone puts into your hand no matter how "paltry" because they owe you NOTHING and do not have to aid you with a penny. So stop sulking you spoiled brat. Always on a hand-out on other nations' hard earned tax- payer money. It is just as well that Zimbabwe gets very little because the people do not get that aid anyway as Mugabe is such a cunning thief. As we speak there are inquiries about aid money that has once again gone missing. How does any money deposited into a country's reserve bank go missing? With all the unrest in the republic of Congo, I would not be surprised if Mugabe has not stolen that money to enforce security at his diamond mines.

Quite right, their mindless babbel is nauseating. They corrupt and lie in every posting they make. Better to ignore them, trying to reason with the mentaly ill will never get anywhere. Acording to them Tsvangorai was in the Rhodesian army, MDC were the perpetrators of violence in the last elections, and The reserve bank did not missapropriate Aid funds. Believe me this is the beginning, more scandals will be revealed. They seem to think all Zimbabweans are blind, read the Herald and see they now accuse MDC of having military training camps in Botswana (Savimbi Factor). The call for elections is a ruse to invade, seems to me like Mugabe and his ilk intend to create a war to take the attention away from their schemings. Something like Argentina invading the Faulklands to take attention away from the problems at home. Mugabe will do anything to remain in power because he realises how much bad news will surface when he loses.

There is simply no logic to their arguments. You make a fair point, and they ignore it. You point out that Tsvangirai never asked for sanctions, and they cant prove it, have made it up, and keep posting it. The good thing is that they make it easy to see what fools we are dealing with here.

Women peacefully protesting against poverty and violence, asking for solutions to the hunger, beatings and rape. Walking withing the law, down the road to hand in a protest. They languish in jail denied bail. Bail for what, freedom of speach, freedom of association. This is your version of free elections!!! Shame on you all!!!!!!!!

yes we need free and fair elections ,than what mugabe is doing ,he is no more interest with people because he knows that the majority of zimbabwe voted for Tsvangirai ,And he want to fix them by creating a war,Thats what more dictators did, like saddam people are now killing each other in Iraq because of saddam .mugabe is now an old man can he just leave to rule and give his self time to rest we know that there are ministers and their relatives those who are benefing and also backing him .but the majority are starving,And also murambatsvina was a big blow from mugabe's fist to peaple.

we need fresh elections and peace keepers from SADC, AU,and UN,We want them to cover all province and towns with their more volume quantity,because mugabe we know is a killer.

All you guys talking about the Botswana president minding his own bussiness, he has all the right to call for elections. Zimbabwens are messing up his country, begging and stealing, prostituting them selves all over the place in Bots. Even in my country Zambia we have zimbabweans sleeping and begging in the streets. Some of them are even getting burned alive in SA. We your neibours are fed up with you and your support for Bob. His tyranny is affecting us byway of the millions of refugees pouring into our countries. If Bob is so confident about support from his pipo why wount he call for new elections ?.

Word of advice to Icho. The situation in Zimbabwe will come to an end one day. Lets accept the truth here. People are suffering in Zimbabwe, thats a fact and its true. You do not have to shout at Botswana, when they make some comments or contributions about Zimbabwe. They are our neighbors, and what is happening in Zimbabwe right now is affecting the people of Botswana, so there is no way they can just ignore it. The tone of your comment shows us that you are not thinking and you do not want to reason. I am also a Zimbabwean by birth, by origin, descent,but this should not make me an irrational person. Any level-headed Zimbabwean is above this kind of talk. Zimbabwe was a beautiful country; rich in agriculture and mineral resources. What has happened to all that? You don't know or you don't care? Let me tell you in case you don't know. Greedy, corruption, selfishness and outright madness by the people in power ruined our country. Zimbabwe is for all Zimbabweans not a few individuals. It is a question of time, this will pass. MDC is not a British political party. No. Tsvangirai comes from Buhera, a district in Manicaland province.There is no British blood in him. He is a Zimbabwean like you. The only difference is that he cares about the people of Zimbabwe, and you don't. If you say everything is fine in Zimbabwe right now, then you need deliverance from such an evil spirit that enjoys seeing innocent people suffering.

Mark my words, this is going to pass. Read Proverbs 29:2

Zimbabwe forever!

This post was deleted because it contravenes AllAfrica's commenting guidelines.

Ian Khama is developing into a fine statesman. Whether he was elected or not should not be the issue; SADC adopted governance standards and these place an onus on the grouping not to tolerate stolen elections. I hope the leaders in the region will seriously conside his views and stop their habit of appeasing one another. Abash stolen elections!

Mabhiza, why do you insult the great statesman Khama when he offers a fair solution to the intolerable impasse? You cannot harp on about interfering with Zimbabwe's internal affairs when the exodus of refugees from Zimbabwe is stretching the resources of neighbouring states?

Why is it so important that you honour the "so-called hero" Robert Gabriel Mugabe and a few of his henchmen while you completely disregard the plight of millions of Zimbabweans facing starvation? Do you think yourself a patriot? It is people like yourself who allow the incompetence of dinosaurs like Mugabe to impede this continent's progress. In the final analysis who cares about whether Khama and Tsvangirai have an understanding, what matters is the will of the people surely. Do you think the people of Zimbabwe want Mugabe to remain in power? If the answer is yes then conduct free and fair elections so that they can indicate as much. If the answer is no, you have confirmed that you are in fact an enemy of peace and justice and therefore an enemy of Africa.

This post was deleted because it contravenes AllAfrica's commenting guidelines.

New free honest elections under the supervision of international observers is the only good thing to do. There is overwhelming evidence the elections this year in Zimbabwe were not free and fair at all. People who object to new free and fair elections only fear total defeat because who would vote for a regime that failed so totally. Obviously only the handfull of Mugabes henchmen and stormtroopers who only look at their own interests and do not care about the people of Zimbabwe at all. Zanu does not represent the will of the people and in parliament they do not have a majority despite their fraud and murder campaign.

Has anyone noticed the similarity between Icho ,Nathaniel Manheru and George Charamba the way they speak. Only until we see the truth, tell the truth, live by the truth.Had this Guy been a victim of Zanu Pf's doing's he would not be saying what he is saying. Forgive him guys for he is being paid quite handsomely for sitting all day in the office wasting taxpayers money thinking of the next lie to say.Had his wife and children /family been subject to zanu pf militia violence prior to june 27 he would be of a different opinion. Charamba why don't you go to Morris depot There is one Cde Taurai there with a thick beard ask him if he is MDC .He was a chief violence perpetrator who vowed that he will never be arrested come what may. God is for everyone

I think you were paid by the Americans and the British to rubish the word of these compariots(Icho ,Nathaniel Manheru and George), they know better than to praise democracy that is spilled by the Westerner, they are preaching unadultarated democracy that is well understood by decent people, as a tool for empowerment not as a imperial tool of subjugation.

I think you were paid by the Americans and the British to rubish the word of these compariots(Icho ,Nathaniel Manheru and George), they know better than to praise democracy that is spilled by the Westerner, they are preaching unadultarated democracy that is well understood by decent people, as a tool for empowerment not as a imperial tool of subjugation.

Democracy can only be used as a tool of empowerment. Subjugation means dictatorship where people have no say as right now in Zimbabwe through Mugabe. Mugabe is a dictator, a thief and a murderer and is supported by Zanu-pf thieves, killers and liars. Some even try to prop him up to such an extent that they tell blatant lies. In mind is Takunya. I noted that in his response to Pule44, he said that there were no hospitals in Zimbabwe before Mugabe. I will name but a few for him starting from Bulawayo. There was the BYO Central, Richard Morris, Mpilo and its maternity, Lady Rodwell,and Ingutsheni hospitals. In Harare there was the Princess margaret, the Old Memorial which were replaced by the Parirenyatwa, the Harare and its maternity hospitals and several other private hospitals and clinics. Each and every major city had a general hospital and clinics, not to forget mission hospitals too. The hospitals were run by exceedingly qualified doctors, the tutors provided the best nurse training and medical services were second to none. What is left today are the skeletons of what used to be. Zimbabwe was a well run, economically sound and beautiful country and all Mugabe had to do was give the people the freedom and dignity they fought for. But that was too much to ask of Mugabe. Instead he waltzed in from Mozambique, crapped all over the place and the people, stealing and creating chaos of death and destruction of Zimbabwe. Now I wish to know what hospitals Mugabe built. Takunya, lies.