SADC leaders should make sure that this upcoming summit is a conclusive one...It's highly likely that they will come up with a final resolution based on last week's Troika report presented by executive secretary Tomasz Salomao...This incisive report makes it clear that no fresh proposals from the 3 parties were presented ,the cabinet allocations made by President Mugabe were indorsed and also the fact that the present impasse is on Home Affairs ministry only...The Western sponsored MDC-T may try to stall the agreement by shifting goalposts and presenting fresh proposals...SADC leaders should make it categorically clear that Tsvangi and his cohorts will not be allowed to disregard the Troika report..SADC leaders should not in any way tolerate anymore childish nonsense from the Western sponsored stooge that wants our pan-african solution on Zim to collapse.....

Of course let's not forget that Salomao's communique was objected to by many as not covering the full detail of the resolution, omitting some crucial decisions by the Troika that weren't in Zanu PF's favour. SA's foreign minister is reported to have been dimayed at the misrepresentation of the facts by the communique and the SA president is reported to agree that the MDC's 'equitable distribution' demand was reasonable. So if SA is going to take a tough stance and these reports have any truth in them, don't expect SADC to necessarily vindicate or confirm Mugabe's position on the implementation of the global agreement. I agree, this summit must be a conclusive one for the good of Zimbabwe. The irony is that for all the 'protection of our sovereignty' Mugabe talked about, Zimbabwe is very close to having a political solution imposed on it by other countries who increasingly recognise the growing danger to the region posed by Zimbabwe's accelerating collapse. With Zimbabwe becoming a more acknowledged threat to the stability of Southern Africa, a United Nations resolution against Mugabe & Zanu PF would not be far off if this impass continues and conditions on the ground worsen.

African32, I've noticed you seem to be in denial of the present state of affairs..You see, the bottom line is that there is an official SADC troika report in place that was drafted by 3 troika nations which confirms that the impasse is on Home Affairs ministry only... You said, "SA's foreign minister is reported to have been dismayed...." I challenge you to tell me where and when she PUBLICLY informed the media on that aspect...African32, The Western sponsored MDC-T keeps shifting goalposts almost on a daily basis in regards to these talks, thereby confusing their own supporters who're now finding it difficult to establish which position they're now at....I bet even you Afric32(your previous name!) need a daily update on the confused MDC-T'S position.....

Comical Mabhiza,

Can you please give us a link to this "official SADC troika report in place that was drafted by 3 troika nations...."

I'm pretty sure you will find it doesnt say any of the things you think it does...

So lets see it eh? Or are you making this all up?

Well, you've had enough time, clearly you have made this all up. Its so easy to see how much of a fool you are. You have zero credibility. Once you tell one lie, everyone will see thatyou cant be trusted. The problem is you've told 100 lies, so what does that make you?

Mabhiza if anyone is in denial it is you trying to beleive Mugabe is what Zim needs b/c He alone is the cause for all of Zim's problems and did you forget he is the joke for the president who has been in charge for over the past 20 years so stop lying to yourself and anyone else. Tsvangirai and the MDC is not in charge or has not been so let Mugabe and the Zanu-pf accept the complete blame for the downfall of Zimbabwe. You seem to forget that the old and crazy Mugabe agreed to a form of government then went back on his word which makes him a liar so why even meet with him b/c he will again just go back on his word. SA will take a tough stance on this issue yeah well actions speak louder than words....

Afric35, As far as the truth is concerned, it's you who's in denial...Now, you said 'He alone is the cause for all of Zim problems'..In case you're not yet aware of it..MDC-T finally admited on 15 september,that Zimbabwe is under ruinous economic sanctions that are affecting the entire nation's ordinary people,all industries and factories..The Western sponsored stooges finally acknowledged this after a decade of fierce denial...Afric32, as ignorant as you're i suggest you take a closer look at Article iv of the powersharing agreement..In brief this is the section that the MDC-T,MDC-M and ZANU-PF explain the economic implications of the illegal sanctions..The MDC-T agreed that Zimbabwe has been under economic strangulation leading to the crisis we face today...Now, Afric32, Tsvangi has vehemently stated that he agrees with each and every section of the powersharing agreement including sanctions clause...Therefore Afric32 don't be an absolute idiot who denies existence of illegal economic sanctions when MDC-T which called for them now fully admit exactly what they are.....

Mabhiza, you have no evidence whatsover that Tsvangirai called for any sanctions and are simply making this up to alienate Tsvangirai from the majority of Zimbabweans that support him. Why do you do this?

Mbilhazia , you and your puppet friends of zanu pf have all been noted by the Afrikan council at the Think tank , noted by members from all over the continent as morons, scared peoples and Mugarbage bootlickers . Nobody but scared bootlickers would stand by and watch what poor Zimbabweans are going through and make the ridiculous observations you peoples do ! You are the vomit of Afrika and disgust true Afrikans !

Mabhiza, I could say exactly the same about you with regard to being in denial about the present state of affairs, from how I read your posts. You & I are entitled to our respective viewpoints. I am not Afric35/32 - This forum doesn't let you have two nicknames - try changing yours next time you post and see what happens to all your posts... Also note what I said: I used 'reported' because in a number of reports I've read, there has been apparent divisions within SADC on what was discussed by the Troika with SA in attendance, and what was released by Angola in the communique. My point was IF the reports were true, then don't expect SA to carry on 'business as usual' with regard to Mugabe. Either way, it is clear that SA want a final agreement and by demanding it as they indicate they will, it means that whatever the outcome is, it will be one that is effectively imposed on Zanu & the MDCs - I expect both sides will not be 100% happy with the outcome. This new position of intending to get an agreement is also in contrast to the past, where SA/Mbeki seemed quite happy to respect the non-interference concept and let Zanu & the MDCs fight it out among themselves. This is a significant change in position and it reflects the growing urgency about resolving this crisis for the good of Southern Africa.

African32 you said." there has been apparent divisions within sadc on what was discussed", Now, has any SADC leader come out in the open and told media publicly that he does not agree with the Troika report? NO!,Now African32, i challenge you to give me facts here not rumours again..The fact is that we're in a stronger position here because we've an official document drafted by the SADC Troika whilst the Western proxies don't have an official SADC report supporting their position(if ever they've a position).

The divisions are long apparent my friend, with Botswana and Tanzania both taking a strong line publicly with Mugabe, not to mention a similar, publicly stated, attitude from the current ANC leadership since during the election results debacle. My main point stands: with SA taking an official harder line, a settlement IS going to be enforced on Zimbabwe by SADC - just read Zuma's own, public words to that effect. As I said in my first post, so much for Mugabe's assertion of 'sovereignty' under Zanu PF. There's little else of consequence to discuss in this thread before we hear the outcome of the SADC meeting - then we both get to see how SADC publicly deal with this... and who gets what in the GNU.

Mabhiza, The fact is that you have never even seen the contents of this troika document, and are simply making things up again.

mabhiza , You are a foolish person. If you have read the reports from both negotiating parties, you must accept that there is no agreement on any of the ministries. Without some form of security ministry, the MDC say they will not enter into any shared administration. Please note the word "SHARED"

Please stop posting clearly inaccurate statements. They only make you appear stupid which I'm sure your not.

Dave, It is you who is foolish and stupid not Mabhiza. To begin with we are entering into this deal as Zimbabweans and not with out siders and so the question of sharing should not arise. When Tsvangirai finally becomes PM, is he going to be an MDC PM? Such an attitude can only come from McGee who tells Tsvangirai that he is not gaining anything from the deal when it is the people who should be gaining.

So, to hell with your so-called "shared administration". The idea of a unity govt is to build confidence and eradicate the polerisation that has taken root in our society. Therefore, if you start talking about sharing, one part, like what Tsvangirai is doing, will start saying that they got a smaller share than what they deserve and the other will say the same. Where will we end if not in the dustbin.

Takunya, why do you say that "the question of sharing should not arise" when the whole GNU is based on an agreement to share power?

Awt_independent, The idea of a GNU is based on the need to work together as Zimbabweans. You can share a bed with someone but this does not imply that you will be itimate. What we want is a govt that all Zimbabweans, regardless of political affiliation, can identify with. Thus the President agreed to this deal in order to unite all Zimbabweans under one umbrella - the govt of Zimbabwe. Nobody should come into the GNU as MDC or Zanu pf but as a Zimbabwean.

The moment we talk of sharing we end up having some people protecting their share and not working together as Zimbos which will culminate in political leaders pulling each other down, sabotaging each other's programmes and further polerising the nation. This is detrimental to development at a time when we need cooperation like no other time.

What has been happening since 1999 is that there was no working togather and so MDC supporters regarded the Zanu pf govt as THEIR GOVT. Today, they criticise any decision that the govt take, however noble, because it is to them a Zanu pf govt. So why enter into a deal that perpetuates the same attitude and hostility that brought us where we are today. Tsvangirai called for sanction because he did not identify with the govt, to him it was the Mugabe Govt and this is what we want to erradicate before we go for another election in 2013.

Every Zimbabwean should be patriotic enough to support any decision that the GNU make, be it bad or good. Bush blundered by ivading Iraq but because the life of American soldiers is at stake everybody be it Democratic, Republican or Independent, supports their soldiers.

Takunya, you talk about a government that will unite all Zimbabweans under one umbrella. How do you intend to do this when over half the population of Zimbabwe (the 57% that voted against Mugabe in the only election recognised as free and fair by the SADC and AU) is against what the ZANU PF is trying to acheive? Surely you cant expect people to unite when they have no one in power representing them?

Takunya, you say "The moment we talk of sharing we end up having some people protecting their share and not working together as Zimbos" Is this not what is happening at the moment with Mugabe trying to hold on to all the ministries of importance?

Takunya, So what you are saying is that a GNU is a ZANU PF government with a different name?

Takunya, you talk of a converstation between McGee and Tsvangirai, do you have evidence of this or are you making it up?

Author: awt_independent Takunya, you talk of a converstation between McGee and Tsvangirai, do you have evidence of this or are you making it up?

Awt_independent, Can you be clear on what exactly you want, what evidence you are looking for.

Takunya, you say that "McGee who tells Tsvangirai that he is not gaining anything" implies that you have been party to a communication between the 2. Can you provide evidence of this communication or are you making it up? ie guessing?

Awt_independent, I notice you have decided to take heed and are now breaking your questions down for individual answers. I applaud you for that. I will therefore answer you accordingly: 1. McGee told all those who cared to listen that he scheduleds, everyday, 4 hours to be with Tsvangirai whereupon he teaches him how to "swing". It is clear from this that this is where he gets his instructions. Only after such swings does Tsvangirai change his mind. Infact McGee acknowledged as much when he said he is free to intract with PM-Designate coz he is now part of govt, although the true position is that Tsvangirai is not yet part of Govt.

The question that begs an answer is, what govt business do they discuss when Tsvangirai is not part of govt? What is clear from this intraction is that it is after these swings that Tsvangirai demands the opening of dialogue on already agreed to items. Tsvangirai refused to go to Swaziland after meeting McGee the previous day. When the King's plane was send to pick Tsvangirai, McGee told him not to go as they were still swinging. Even a foolish idiot like you can read something from Tsvangirai's insistence on continuing to swing when the plane was waiting to take him.

Weeks after the deal was signed MDC was all praise for the signed deal and were looking forward to getting into their offices to start work. Some even went to inspect their offices-to-be at Munhumutapa Building indicating that they were happy with the deal in its entirety. However, all hell broke loose when McGee said that the deal was not perfect. The whole MDC hierarchy started singing from the the same hym book. What are we to deduce from all this? Was it coincidental that McGee comments about the imperfectness of the deal after meeting Tsvangirai and thereafter everybody in MDC is now flashing the deal down the toilet? Is this not a clear sign that there is close liaison between McGee and Tsvangirai?

2. On the issue of a GNU, what I am saying is that the unity govt is neither Zanu pf nor MDC but will be the Zim Govt and so the question of sharing should fall away. Sharing by its very nature is individualistic and divisive thus the best for Zimbabwe at the moment is a GNU where all are going in as Zimbabweans and not Zanu pf or MDC. The question of the importance or otherwise of a ministry would not matter in a situation I am advocating.

In any case what is a key ministry? If only Home Affairs is Key to providing food to the people, why not scrap all other ministries and just remain with Home Affairs. What I am saying is all ministries that were proposed during the talks were seen to be key that is why they are on the line up. It would have been understandable if MDC was saying it has been given 10 instead of the agreed 13 ministries. MDC is getting the 13 ministries as agreed and I think that should not be any talk of the so-called "key Ministries"

3. "...Surely you cant expect people to unite when they have no one in power representing them?". This is exactly the divisive attitude we are tryig to fight against and eradicate, but you, a foreigner, continues to talk about the representation of MDC people when we want to do away with political parties. President Mugabe is the state president and not president of Zanu pf people. Tsvangirai is going to be the PM of Zimbabwe and not of MDC. A minister is going to function as a minister of govt and not of either MDC-T, MDC or Zanu pf. So where is your problem, Mr Divisive man?

You talk of 57% people voting against President Mugabe, where do you get that from? Mind you MDC-T and MDC are two totally different parties and therefore their votes should never be added together. People who voted for MDC-M, by that very action, voted against both Zanu pf and MDC-T and therefore should always be regarded as a seperate entity to the other two. That is why they are represented at the talks - they have their own interests to protect and should therefore be allowed to guard their share. It is therefore not true that 57% of the voters are against the GNU as invisaged by SADC.

1) When did "McGee told all those who cared to listen that he scheduleds, everyday, 4 hours to be with Tsvangirai whereupon he teaches him how to "swing"." What evidence do you have of this? Or as I suspect, I think you are making this up.

Awt_independent, McGee said this with his mouth in an interview on the SW Radio programme "Hot Seat". It was a question and answer programme. You cannot say you did not see it or its nowhere to be found. Actually, McGee boasted about swinging with Tsvangirai and was arrogant enough to say that he will continue to swing with Tsvangirai until donkeys grow horns.

Do you have any evidence of this? A tape? transcript perhaps? OR have you you made it up like you did when you said that Tsvangirai called for sanctions on BBC HardTalk? Remember? I bought up the show on you tube and showed you were lying. Is this another lie Takunya? I would be alot of money it is...

Awt_independent, I notice you did not come back to me meaning to say you failed to get the interview that I referred you to. However, I deliberately gave a wrong name to see if you research and I think it is true that you do not want to read especially things that go against your desire to demonise the govt of Zimbabwe. The name of the interviewer is therefore not Carol Gombakomba but Violet Gunda. If you fail to get the interview I will give you the date.

Why dont you just give the link? Aaah I know... its because you're making the whole thing up! We both know that if you ever had any tangible evidence (which you never do) then you would be boasting it left right and centre. So clearly you have no evidence and are making things up. And its so obvious to everyone on the board. You dont fool anyone.

Awt_independent, Now I have seen what the problem is with you, you want to be spoon fed like a baby. You do not want to research and read widely to know some of these things. For McGee's interview go to www.zimbabwesituation.com, scroll down until you find an article about McGee's interview with Carol Gombakomba of "Hot Seat" fame. If you fail to get it plse do not hesitate to come back to me I can even give you the date.

Why dont you just give the link? Aaah I know... its because you're making the whole thing up! We both know that if you ever had any tangible evidence (which you never do) then you would be boasting it left right and centre. So clearly you have no evidence and are making things up. And its so obvious to everyone on the board. You dont fool anyone.

2) How is sharing divisive? Surely its the exact opposite by definition.

I just dont see how you think you can install the ZANU PF as the new government, call it the GNU, and then expect the opposition MDC to be happy about it when they have more of the vote.

Why you are saying is that the ZANU PF should have all the ministries, the MDC none. IF you think that fits within a GNU you are simply a fool.

"You talk of 57% people voting against President Mugabe, where do you get that from?" quite simple really, Mugabe only got 43% of the vote, therefore 57% of people voted against Mugabe. I'm not sure why this is difficult for you.

I'm glad that you agree that the 57% of the people that voted against Mugabe should be "allowed to guard their share". Why then cant they have that same share in the government. Its only fair.

As for your comment "It is therefore not true that 57% of the voters are against the GNU as invisaged by SADC." Nobody ever said that. Another thing you have made up. 57% of people voted against Mugabe. not the GNU.

You really are an idiot arent you. I'm glad you even tell us the same thing.

Takunya, you say that "The idea of a unity govt is to build confidence and eradicate the polerisation" - How does giving Mugabe all the key ministries help to do this?

True Cde Mabhiza, SADC leaders should not tolerate the daft and retarded stooge whose only aim is to see the people of Zimbabwe continue to suffer under sanctions that he campaigned for. Tsvangirai should be told, right in his face, that enough is enough and a stick should thus be used on his buttocks to put him in line with the thinking in the region.

We cannot afford to go another month without a cabinet simply because Tsvangirai is being told, by his handlers, to be stubborn so that SADC fails. The failure of SADC is the failure of the AU and this will force our detractors to take the case to the UNSC.

He should also be warned that the time for a Savimbi or Dhlakama adventure is over. He should not be allowed to plunge the whole region in turmiol simply to protect the interests of his imperialists handlers like what we see today in the DRCongo where Rwanda is openly supporting Ngunda to destabilise the Congo.

The only and last country to get away with supporting an insurgency should be Apartheid South Africa. The same strong warning should, therefore, be given, with no ambiguity, to any govt that supports or intents to support the destabilisation of another. SADC should make it abandantly clear that they will not tolerate sellouts in this region.

Takunya, once again you complain of sanctions, yet you fail to be able to name 1 single sanction that affects the people of Zimbabwe. Why is this?

Takunya, you mention that Tsvangirai campaigned for these sanctions, let you have no evidence of this? Have you made this up?

Takunya, you say that "Tsvangirai is being told, by his handlers, to be stubborn so that SADC fails". Do you have evidence of this, or have you made this up?

takunya_ndebvu

Despite my courteous response to your Cde, I find myself losing some patience with your statement that a stick should be applied to MT's buttocks. This is exactly the type of rhetoric that will force Regional leaders to apply some violence to Zimbabwe. Even worse, the UN might decide to intervene. Then you will see how far your expressions of brutality will take your cause for a peaceful and prosperous Zim. Mugabe may have "Degrees in Violence" but he wouldn't last more than 24 hours if a well equipped external force decided to step in and resolve this impasse.

Think before you make such provocative statements

Dave, Takunya works for the ZANU PF in their propaganda department.

Takunya tells so many lies on here, and gets found out for telling these lies, that when he rights something that sounds plausible, no one can take it seriously.

Here are some other things that Takunya has said... (Takunya and Mabhiza are one and the same person)

3) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza have stated that Mugabe is the most democratic leader in Africa. Seriously!

4) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza have stated that "in a bid to tarnish the image of Zanu pf, MDC went on a killing spree and murderered 130 MDC and Zanu pf supporters in the process."

5) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe there were " over 200 CIA operatives criss-crossing the country during the elections."

6) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe "Even the British are not happy with Tsvangirai's leaning towards the Americans when it was their (regime change) project in the first place.

7) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe that "Prem and Awt_independent, Phiri … are hired by the MDC establishment. Infact they are the brains in MDC hence are the ones strategising attacks on the Zimbabwean people be it via violence or sanctions." So now I work for the CIA, MI5 (see below) and the MDC.

8) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe that war veterans and police officers should be allowed to bar the MDC from distributing food to starving orphans.

9) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe that freedom of speech should not exist in Zimbabwe and newspaper editors should be monitored to ensure they subscribe to the Zanu PF government's policies.

10) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe that the US and Britain have openly stated that they are working with Zimbabwean journalists for "illegal regime change"

11) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe the west "created the HIV virus and injeted it into the African people. They then turned around and alleged that HIV originated in Africa"

12) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe the MDC has a "dictatorial leader who does not allow alternative voices". Rather ironic that one.

13) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza both support the use of violence, murder, rape and torture by Mugabe against the people of Zimbabwe.

14) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza both believe that Bush is responsible for atrocities in Iraq, and this justifies Mugabe's atrocities in Zimbabwe, including the genocide of 20,000 Ndebele people and the murders of over 100 MDC supporters during this years elections.

15) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza should be ignored because none of their posts are truthful and they are always misleading.

16) If you say anything against Mugabe, Takunya and Comical Mabhiza will say that you are paid by the CIA and MI5 to write here.

17) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza have stated that "Tsvangirai appeared on BBC Hardtalk programme and asked for the cutting of electricity, trade and transport links". The episode of hard talk is available here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv-Zs1V7j-U. And not once does Tsvangirai call for sanctions of any type.

18) The CIA does not pay me. If they do, please give them my bank account details, all cards accepted. :-)

19) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza will also resort to childish name calling when they have no factual evidence based argument.

20) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza both believe that Tsvangirai called for sanctions against the people of Mugabe.

21) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza should be ignored because non of their posts are truthful and they are always misleading.

22) Tsvangirai never called for sanctions against the people of Zimbabwe.

23) When confronted and asked for evidence of this, Takunya and Comical Mabhiza have none.

24) The Sanctions faced by Zimbabwe are not against the people of Zimbabwe.

25) The Sanctions faced by Zimbabwe are only against the government and its ministers, and 4 companies, including one that makes military uniforms.

26) None of these Sanctions are faced by the people of Zimbabwe.

27) Tsvangirai is not responsible for these sanctions.

28) If Tsvangirai did not exist, there would still be sanctions on Zimbabwe (as described above).

29) Therefore Tsvangirai is 100% independent of Zimbabwe being sanctioned as above.

30) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza should be ignored because non of their posts are truthful and they are always misleading.

31) Biti and Ncube, and Tsvangirai had no input into the drafting of the American sanctions bill.

32) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe the west wants to recolonise Zimbabwe.

33) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe the west wants to invade Zimbabwe.

34) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza should be ignored because non of their posts are truthful and they are always misleading.

35) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe the west wants to poison aid and kill Zimbabweans.

36) Tsvangirai has never denied aid to the Zimbabwean people, only Mugabe has done this.

37) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza should be ignored because non of their posts are truthful and they are always misleading.

38) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe that Zimbabwe only has partial independence and that the fight against colonialism still goes on.

39) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe that Tsvangirai called for sanctions whilst being interviewed on BBC HardTalk in 2000.

40) Tsvangirai never appeared on BBC HardTalk in 2000. More lies.

41) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe that the British want to bomb Zimbabwe.

42) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe that the west wants to inject AIDS into aid to give to the people of Zimbabwe.

43) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe that west want to destabilize Zimbabwe and "make it ungovernable for eventual American and British takeover just like in Iraq and Afghanistan."

44) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe that Tsvangirai didn’t attend the meeting of SADC heads in Swaziland because he refused to go, and that he had a valid passport tor travel. This is after the Zim government clearly stated that Tsvangirai wasn’t issued a passport because there was no paper to make passports due to paper being under sanction.

45) Paper is not under any type of sanction.

46) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe that Zimbabwe does not need any outside help.

47) Takunya and Comical Mabhiza believe that Bush is tainting Genetically Modified Foods with Aids and delivering it to Zimbabwe. Is this even possible?

48) Takunya and comical Mabhiza believe that Tsvangirai boycotted the Swaziland summet in favour of a round of golf.

49) For saying these things, Takunya and Mabhiza have tried to discredit me by saying that "You have supported the American war on Iraq and Afghanistan. You have supported the torture of suspected terrorists by the CIA as it practises its extraordinary randition around the world. You have supported the rape of women and girls by the American soldiers many times. You have supported the use of chemical weapons on civilians in Vietnam many times on this forum. You are a CIA agent. You have been exposed as a bitter former white commercial farmer who got recruted by the CIA. You are totally against the land reform do not lie. You were part of the killing machinary that massacred our comrades at Chimoio, Nyadzonya, Mkushi etc."

All of this is simply propaganda made up by Takunya and Mabhiza to discredit what I say in my posts. And obvious as such to everyone with a brain. And I wouldnt be campaigning so strongly for the people of Zimbabwe who are subject to such practices at the hands of the Butcher of Harare if any of this were true. Water off a ducks back to me though.

So pretty much you can see that anything that comes out of Takunya's mouth is lies, propoganda, misleading erroneous and basically not worth the time you spent reading it...

AWT-Independant.

Thanks for the update...I was beginning to believe that you had to have an IQ of <70 to post on this forum.

70's a bit generous dont you think? :-)

Dave, Tsvangirai called for sanctions that are hating Zimbabweans today. He went from capital to capital begging western leaders to impose sanctions and now the same sanctions are killing his brothers and sisters and he has been forced to acknowledge, in the document, that sanctions are biting the ordinary Zimbabwean. How much further should he be allowed to go before a stick is used on him? I believe that after the SADC Summit in SA, if he refuses to go along with the deal, definitely the stick should be used on his buttocks.

The same cannot be said of President Mugabe. He listened and continues to listen, to his peers in the region who dissuaded him from forming a govt. After gazzetting ministries, the next move was to be the appointment of cabinet but because of his understanding, he has put it on hold and continues to patiently wait for Tsvangirai to come to the party.

He has immensely compromised to accommodate Tsvangirai's demands. The idea of a group of ministers that Tsvangirai is going to chair came from MDC and the President compromised. The ministry of Finance was initially allocated to Zanu pf but the President, once again, compromise inorder to make the deal work. Instead of reciprocating, MDC, especially Tsvangirai, now wants to open discussions on all items of the deal. So who is intransigent, who needs censoring from SADC between the two?

I therefore do not invisage an invasion by SADC countries, AU, or even UN because nothing warrants that. Unless by invasion you mean from Botswana where Tsvangirai has stationed his militia. That is different from UN intervension.

But suppose, just suppose that happens, I can assure you that Zimbabwe is a soveriegn country that has a duty to defend its territorial integrity. We will fight to the last man. We are more than ready to die for our country. We fought for its independence and in the same way we can fight for its integrity. NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT.

takunya_ndebvu ...I have checked and searched for interviews and documents calling for sanctions on Zimbabwe by Tsvangirai and cannot find any. I did find one interview where he stated that sanctions against "individuals" responsible for the pre-election violence "May be necessary", but in the same interview he also said that he did not support "General Sanctions". i.e. Sanctions that would be applied to the country or businesses and that would have an impact on the ordinary citizens of Zim. I have also searched the UN websites and the Rapporteurs reports for Zimbabwe and cannot find any mention of over-arching applications of sanctions which could or would affect Zimbabwe's economy. I did find one critical report of Zimbabwe's involvement in the earlier DRC conflict which stated that Millions of US$ was used to support the war. The report went on to suggest that because of the investment in the war, Zimbabwe had defaulted on loan repayments which should have been made to the IMF and associated banks and also reduced the funds available from the UK Government for "Land resettlement".

I am still researching the points you have raised and will post my results shortly.

Takunya, Dave,

I too have checked and searched for documents and interviews showing Tsvangirai called for sanctions against the people of Zimbabwe and come up with nothing.

Takunya rests the very basis of his argument on this point, and claims there is evidence everywhere to support this. The very fact he never provides evidence of this clearly points the fact its not true, for if it was true, Takunya would be posting it left right and centre. This is very simple logic, and impossible to argue with.

Like wise, Takunya cannot name even 1 sanction that is in place against the people of Zimbabwe, which clearly he would if there were such things. Once again simple logic to prove Takunya is once again lying.

Takunya is clearly paid by the ZANU PF to keep posting the same lies in the hope it will in some way influence the foolish. Its lucky that people are a little smarter than that.

Awt_independent and Dave, Just as a way of helping you on the issue of sanctions against Zimbabweans I will quote a few lines, for your benefit, from Eric Bloch's article entitle "Sanctions Hurtful To General Public "

"...The only sanctions which applied to all Zimbabwe, and not only to those deserving to be sanctioned, were applied by USA, to the extent of its Zimbabwe Democracy Act which, amongst other provisions, prescribed a veto of any International Monetary Fund support for Zimbabwe, and of its Africa Growth and Opportunity Act, Zimbabwe being precluded from access to the favoured nation trade benefits of that act."

Eric Bloch is former oppressor and a diehard racist and is one of the many MDC members who have advocated for the imposition of sanctions on Zimbabwe but now is seeing the devastation they are causing to the ordinary Zimbabwean. He went on to say that "...However, as justifiable as such targetted sanctions are, sanctions which afflict the innocent are not only unjustified, but also are often inhumane and an intensification of the hardships and suffering of the innocent, being the very people that the sanctions seek to protect."

I rest my case!!! But more can still come if you still do not believe that there are sanctions against Zimbabwe and which are adversely affecting the people of Zimbabwe.

so basically the government of Zimbabwe borrowed $233 million, used it to fund war, and its lavish lifestyle, never paid it back, and now wants more money to line its pocket and fund its lavish lifestyle. I see the $7 million from the Global fund hasnt been paid back either and has gone missing. You may call these sanctions, but I say its fair enough. You cant expect money for free and never pay back whats given to you. Zimbabwe has never even made any efforts to put measures in place to pay back this money, as any responsible government would do, so why should Zimbabwe be given any money? I think you need to understand fully why these financial measures were put in place before you start criticising them.

Dave, If there are no sanctions against the people of Zimbabwe why did Biti include an item in the agreement which calls on the lifting of illegal sanctions against Zimbabwe which the deal says is hating the ordinary people? The US sanctions act is clearly an instrument used to impose sanctions on Zimbabwe. Tsvangirai, in an interview on the BBC Hardtalk programme called for sanctions against Zimbabwe. Tsvangirai again called for sanctions on an SABC Africa programme and was clearly advocating for the imposition of sanctions on Zimbabwe to quicken up the fall of govt.

A British company that used to import fresh produce from Zimbabwe was forced to cancel the deal. A Germany company that used to supply paper to print money was forced to cancel the deal. In addition the following companies were recently added on the sanctions and were announced by the US Director of Treasury's Office of Foreign Assets Control, Adam J Szubin: Zimre Holdings and ZB Financial Holdings. This means that from the day of announcement the above companies, registered on the ZSE, have been added to the list of companies barred from doing business with the US. They feature in a line-up which includes parastatals Ziscosteel, Zimbabwe Minerals Development Corporation, Minerals Marketing Corporation of Zimbabwe, Agribank, and many others.

Considering that thousands of Zimbabweans have shares in ZHL and ZB their wealth is now at risk because of this move. If these are not sanctions on the ordinary Zimbabwean population then you, Dave and Awt_independent, should tell me what this is. If we consider that most, if not all those, who bought shares in ZHL and ZB are honest investors whose motive is purely to create wealth for themselves and have no connection whatsoever with either Zanu pf or the Govt then we can see that these are sanctions against the people of Zimbabwe.

All the companies that have been put on the sanctions list do employ ordinary Zimbos. If for example the Iron and Steel Plant in Redcliff closes, does that not cause unemployment which directly affects ordinary Zimbabweans? Maybe to you that does not matter because they are employed during the period when Mugabe is in power. Our farmers today cannot get enough money to finance their farming activities because Agribank is under sanctions and yet you talk of only targetted sanctions or sanctions against 4 companies and 170 individuals. Very soon ZHL and ZB may decide to disinvest and go elsewhere, does this not cause unemployment to the ordinary Zimbabwean?

The episode of hard talk is available here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv-Zs1V7j-U. And not once does Tsvangirai call for sanctions of any type.

Takunya, why do you continue to post lies. I've clearly busted you for them many times, but you continue to post them. You say that "Tsvangirai, in an interview on the BBC Hardtalk programme called for sanctions against Zimbabwe."

Now I've shown you that the episode of hard talk is available here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv-Zs1V7j-U. And not once does Tsvangirai call for sanctions of any type.

Why do you continue to lie?

Takunya, you are so easy to show as a fool. Its funny! It just helps us to realise what idiots we are dealing with here at the ZANU PF headquarters. I've never known a more pathetic individual.

Takunya,

Once again you show us what a fool you are by posting the following lies.

1) Tsvangirai called for sanctions that are hating Zimbabweans today. 2) He went from capital to capital begging western leaders to impose sanctions 3)The same cannot be said of President Mugabe. 4) He listened and continues to listen, to his peers in the region who dissuaded him from forming a govt. 5) He has immensely compromised to accommodate Tsvangirai's demands. 6) The idea of a group of ministers that Tsvangirai is going to chair came from MDC and the President compromised. 7) The ministry of Finance was initially allocated to Zanu pf but the President, once again, compromise inorder to make the deal work. 8)Instead of reciprocating, MDC, especially Tsvangirai, now wants to open discussions on all items of the deal. 9)By invasion you mean from Botswana where Tsvangirai has stationed his militia. 10)We will fight to the last man. 11)We are more than ready to die for our country.

Not bad... 11 lies in one post. Keep up the good work Takunya! :-)

Thanx my brother Cde Takunya...Wagona chose..Let's keep the revolutionary fire burning..Let's remain resolute and protect a Revolution for which thousands of our fellow Zimbabweans were ruthlessly massacred by the now MDC-T sponsors......

I didnt know Mugabe sponsored the MDC-T? I mean.. he was the one that slaughtered 20,000 Ndebele people... in (in his words) "a moment of madness".

Awt_independent, For goodness sake stop lying like this Awt. Why do you accuse the President of what he did not do and even have the audicity to quote him out of context? True, President Mugabe said those words but what was the background to that phrase? Zanu pf and Pf-Zapu had united after the dissident era that claimed a number of lives. Having united, whatever was done by the two protagonists was now collective responsibility and so the president refered to this period as a dark chapter in our history because revolutionary parties were not supposed to lock horns after winning the war against colonialism, oppression and subjugation.

No more than one thousand people died during that conflict, hence, I do not know where you are getting the figure of 20 000 from. If you are relying on the discredited document authored by the likes of David Coltart and Mike Auret then you are totally lost. I challenge you to give me evidence of what you are talking about. Where 20 000 are killed in less than three years, there should irrefutable evidence of mass killings and mass graves. Do you have any of those to show me, Awt?

During that conflict, many people, who did not subscribe to the cause of the dissidents were killed in cold blood. These included Zanu pf officials, farmers, tourists and the Shonas in Matabeleland and Midlands provinces. I have never heard you talk about these as deserving of mention. You only talk of the Ndebeles as if the whole of Matabeleland is inhabited by Ndebeles. Many of the people in this region are not Ndebeles but because of geography they speak the Ndebele language.

There was, therefore, no systematic targetting of the Ndebele people by the Shonas as you want to imply. Shonas and Ndebeles are two branches of the same tree, hence there can never be a desire to exterminate each other. It is only Awt who is from a totally different tree who want to cause confusion, disenchantment, disunity and conflict.

There are people who were caught in cross-fire, who died in this operation simply because they happened to be at a certain place at the wrong time when there was exchange of gunfire, but had not been specifically targetted. These are the people the President regretted loosing their lives because they were innocent. No amount of propaganda will see us going back to those dark days of conflict.

Shame on you Awt, you rejoice seeing people killing each other. It pleases you to see millions of innocent men, women and children being killed while others are displaced like is happening in the DRCongo where Nkunda is alleging ethinicty as a justification for displacing such a multitude of people.

Takunya, you and I both know that Mugabe is responsible for this act of genocide. theres no denying it. At the end of the day it doesnt matter what you say here, the people of Zimbabwe know, and the people of Zimbabwe wont forget what Mugabe did that day.

Mabhiza, do you have a link to this Troika report, so we can all view it? Or as I suspect, are you just making what you said up?

I'm relly losing patience with the says of some people on this net, I am thinking of how many people wish so much to go home from the diaspora and help their land reclaim its old time place as a model country in the heart of Africa and they are being misguided by the likes of Mabhiza and his cohorts alias comrades...So much do people want to know the truth from people who are on the ground and what they find is people giving defensive statements about what happen rather then to enlighten and erase the mist and tell as it is. Now let us get a taste of the many issues that one can get misguided on in the lies of the said persons... we hear and read of a humanitarian crisis and the foreign aid being denied access to the masses. So one look on the web site to establish the accuracy of the scale of damage done and what do you find....Some fella called Mabhiza who sound to be right in Harare is enlightening the site readers that the President disallowed aid workers because they are only serving the opposition. Are they not part of the humans targeted by the crisis, I wonder. If one only wanted to know if there was or is a humanitarian crisis on the coming in Zimbabwe. The talk of SADC taking a stern stand in the upcoming summit is more aimed at getting a solution to the crisis and the likes of Mabhiza only see the nececity of classifying the leaders between who is legible to see the sense in Mugabe's senselesness and who would not. Well what do I learn from that if I am interested in the end of the crisis and whant it to be over so I can go home and elect or vote for a reasonable leader. That is exactly what they give on if you wish to agree to disagree with them. If Mr. Khama wish the elelctions to be redone then all you hear is Death to Khama, Monarch of Botswana, whip to the buttocks of Tsvangirai, and all that bad and offensive stuff. The problem in Zimbabwe is to be solved and not be promoted, do you mabhiza feels that the decisions the ruling party takes, in your absence are in the interest of ending the dilema. At least I point my finger to them as they are the ones in charge and choose who to give what portofolio and who or how long to take to give a passport.The high winds catch the most wind....

Takunya, I see you have alot of unanswered questions on this thread? I guess you just dont have answers for everything... theres only so far your propaganda can go. Its intersting that when I split my usually longer posts into individual question, and thereby force you to acknowledge all the questions, instead of just the ones that you choose, its clear to see that you simply dont have an arguement.

Even the simple question: Name 1 sanction that affects the people of Zimbabwe you simply cant answer. Goes to show doesnt it... the ZANU PF cant pay anyone enough to do your job well, cos at the end of the day, myself and the good people of Zimbabwe have truth and justice on their side. And you will always lose against these 2 things.

Face it Takunya, you're backing a dead donkey in a race full of thoroughbreds.

the Secretary of the Treasury shall instruct the United States executive director to each international financial institution to oppose and vote against--

(1) any extension by the respective institution of any loan, credit, or guarantee to the Government of Zimbabwe; or

(2) any cancellation or reduction of indebtedness owed by the Government of Zimbabwe to the United States or any international financial institution.

Many Thanks sankofa for the reference to Financial sanctions. This must be a direct result of Zimbabwe's Government not servicing the funds received from the IMF and other International Loan Banks. I suppose they consider further loans will default as well. There are lots of countries who engage in arrangements with the IMF, Global Fund, Fishmongers etc, who are subject to restrictions on the level of debt and repayment terms and are subsequently helped to reduce that debt by strict economic constraints. In the case of Zimbabwe, the country did not attempt to pay back the loans or introduce fiscal measures which would have led to long term stability. Instead the spent the loans on the DRC war and an accelerated land re-distribution program.

Not the sort of activities designed to assist in economic recovery. Pre Independance,,the Smith Regime was subject to the same financial constraints as well as complete import and export embargoes and they managed to expand their GDP. albeit with help from sympathetic countries in the Region.

Further searches have disclosed that in 2003. Zimbabwe owed the IMF US$233 Million.

You can read the full disclosure and ruling from the IMF

here:-http://www.imf.org/external/np/sec/pr/2003/pr0380.htm

No,actually not Dave... First, please note that these sanctions instruct the secretary of the treasury to instruct US directors of ALL international financial institutions to vote against the nation of Zimbabwe.... not just the IMF.

Second, the following quote is taken directly from an IMF press release, thus debunking the misinformation that Zimbabwe was not actively engaged in repaying its debt to the fund:

"Zimbabwe Pays Its Overdue Financial Obligations to the IMF Under the General Resources Account Press Release No. 06/33 February 15, 2006

Zimbabwe today made a further payment of US$9 million to the International Monetary Fund (IMF), thereby fully settling its remaining overdue financial obligations to the General Resources Account (GRA)... The settlement removes the basis for the Managing Director's complaint with respect to Zimbabwe's compulsory withdrawal from the Fund (see Press Release No. 03/210). Accordingly, the Managing Director withdrew his complaint today, thereby cancelling the procedure for compulsory withdrawal."

I have posted these handy FACTS here in order to help deconstruct some widespread misperceptions about the nature of sanctions against Zimbabwe. Suffice to say that THE SANCTIONS ARE NOT TARGETED, THEY ARE GENERAL SANCTIONS THAT TARGET THE GOVERNMENT OF ZIMBABWE IN ITS ENTIRITY, not just Zanu-PF, some individuals and businesses (though these sanctions also exist). The notion of "targeted" sanctions is a misrepresentation of the FACTS which are that sanctions are doing significant damage to the whole of Zimbabwe's economy. If you would like me to post additional references here to support these conclusions, please do not hesitate to ask, and I will oblige.

Sankofa, Thanx for providing the details you have posted and pointing to the fact that Zimbabwe and its people are under sanctions and therefore the sanctions are hating the ordnary man and woman on the street who has nothing to do and has no connection whatsoever with Zanu pf and the Govt.

My assumption has all along been that the likes of Prem, Kazt, Awt_independent, Phiri etc read and research widely and therefore are privy to such detail. I have, however, been pointing out, on numerous occasions, that they are in denial and that is why I have refused to give them the lead to the video in which Tsvangirai calls for sanctions (cutting of trade and transport links; and cutting of electricity) against Zimbabwe and not Zanu pf or individual cabinet members.

Takunya, so what you are saying is that Tsvangirai is in no way related to the hardships seen in Zimbabwe today. Your whole argument has been that Tsvangirai has caused the sanctions which you claim sit on Zimbabwe today, but now you say that he claimed for "cutting of trade and transport links; and cutting of electricity" which didnt happen. So therefore Any damage that is being done to Zimababwe due to sanctions has nothing to do with Tsvangirai. I'm glad we cleared this up!

Awt_independent, The reason why Zimbabwe cannot access loans and lines of credit from multilateral lending institutions like IMF and WB is because of Tsvangirai's call for sanctions to make Zimbabweans suffer so that they could vote for him.

There are many countries today that are worse off in terms of their payment to these institutions but are still receiving support. We have been singled our simply because we dared ruffle the feathers of Big Brother Anglo-Saxon who had to find a willing tool and pretext to impose sanctions and Tsvangirai was readily available. Tsvangirai knows how dear land is to Anglo-Saxons and how they hate the land reform programme and so he took advantage of this and decided to propel himself to Zimbabwe national politics.

He started opposing everything and anything that went against imperial interests. He did not mind seeing his people suffer under sanctions as long as the ultimate goal was to get to State House. Infact his willingness to remain under subjugation and oppression and remain a slave led to selling out at a very young age, in 1978 when he decided to team up with colonisers to kill freedom fighters.

Thus, the cutting of trade and transport links; and cutting of electricity supplies to Zimbabwe is what he wished to see as the other sanctions he had previously called for seemed not to cause immediate damage that would have resulted in him getting to State House as early as 2005. Also these sanctions are what he called for live on international TV as opposed to the former which he called for behind closed doors.

Takunya, why do you make so much stuff up? "Also these sanctions are what he called for live on international TV" You are making this up! Do you enjoy lying? You dont fool anyone! You tell so many lies, everyone thinks you're a fool.

This is the full account for Zims loans, repayments and interest charges.

They are a bit complicated so you need to examine them with care.

the link to access a more readable table is here:-

http://www.imf.org/external/np/fin/tad/extrans1.aspx?memberKey1=1085&endDat e=2008-09-30

Good luck... I found it heavy going.????

Dave

Year General Resources Account Poverty Reduction and Growth Facility/ Enhanced Structural Adjustment Facility Structural Adjustment Facility/Trust Fund Total Purchases Charges Paid Loans Interest Paid Purchases and Loans Charges and Interest Paid Disbursements Repurchases Disbursements Repayments Disbursements Repayments 2008 0 0 0 0 1,043,861 0 0 1,043,861 0 2007 0 0 0 0 77,474 0 0 77,474 0 2006 0 2,081,552 15,709,084 0 269,335 0 0 2,350,887 15,709,084 2005 0 111,482,435 105,467 0 0 0 0 111,482,435 105,467 2004 0 3,940,754 0 0 10,193,754 0 0 14,134,508 0 2003 0 0 110,135 0 3,202,626 0 0 3,202,626 110,135 2002 0 1,450,000 175,196 0 852,217 0 0 2,302,217 175,196 2001 0 5,935,262 1,957,492 0 1,036,444 0 0 6,971,706 1,957,492 2000 0 26,350,000 7,088,603 0 27,040,000 520,592 0 53,390,000 7,609,195 1999 24,740,000 24,758,333 5,795,609 0 20,360,000 643,101 24,740,000 45,118,333 6,438,710 1998 39,200,000 21,574,999 6,576,038 0 13,980,000 728,380 39,200,000 35,554,999 7,304,418 1997 0 18,533,332 6,615,187 0 0 759,508 0 18,533,332 7,374,695 1996 0 5,933,333 6,953,986 0 0 1,142,378 0 5,933,333 8,096,364 1995 19,100,000 0 8,172,330 33,400,000 0 653,815 52,500,000 0 8,826,145 1994 19,100,000 0 6,864,500 33,400,000 0 270,025 52,500,000 0 7,134,525 1993 17,400,000 0 6,411,178 30,400,000 0 364,285 47,800,000 0 6,775,463 1992 102,500,000 0 4,164,672 54,700,000 0 78,462 157,200,000 0 4,243,134 1991 0 4,843,750 270,930 0 0 0 0 4,843,750 270,930 1990 0 17,400,231 1,754,594 0 0 0 0 17,400,231 1,754,594 1989 0 29,956,704 3,636,710 0 0 0 0 29,956,704 3,636,710 1988 0 58,105,905 6,630,255 0 0 0 0 58,105,905 6,630,255 1987 0 80,749,546 11,902,014 0 0 0 0 80,749,546 11,902,014 1986 0 49,413,862 17,500,739 0 0 0 0 49,413,862 17,500,739 1985 0 20,849,004 21,215,336 0 0 0 0 20,849,004 21,215,336 1984 0 9,375,002 13,801,387 0 0 0 0 9,375,002 13,801,387

@Sankofa

Thank you...I sometimes miss the details. I have researched the IMF website for most of today and have concluded the following.

1. Zim paid almost all of it's outstanding debt in 2003. Not everything, but almost.

2. The restrictions imposed on Zimbabwe are not exclusively from the USA but the only reference I could find is an instruction to their (USA) representatives on the IMF to Vote against any further loans or debt relief. New Zealand, UK, Canada etc are all resisting further loans.

3. The accounts of the IMF show that no payments were made for a number of years during the turbulent period following their involvement in the DRC.

I am reluctant to admit to being biased, but sometimes you get conflicting messages and unless the facts are presented with the assertions you have to go with accepted beliefs. This particular subject might be worth digging into.

That said...What did happen to the enormous sums borrowed. ( and repaid). They weren't used to improve Zimbabwe. They weren't used to fund the Land re-distribution (see accounts of Farm invasions). No recompense has been paid to evicted farmers. (See Lancaster House Agreement on Willing Seller Willing Buyer.)

I just hope that an equitable conclusion to the talks gives ordinary Zims some hope for relief and celebration.

Sankofa

For the sake of Clarity and the avoidance of doubt. I have included the link to the IMF report stating that Zimbabwe had cleared it's debt below.

I like Facts and dislike ambiguity. That is only fair. I do not support your beliefs but will defend your right to express them as long as they do not conflict with accepted norms or other peoples right to do the same

Dave

The link is here:-

http://www.imf.org/external/np/sec/pr/2006/pr0633.htm

Sankofa.

What about the following.

Exogenous Shocks Facility Trust (ESF)2 amounting to SDR 83 million (US$119 million)is still owed to the IMF.?

Because GRA and PRGF arrears are subject to separate legal frameworks-the former under the Fund's Articles of Agreement and the latter under the PRGF-ESF Trust Instrument-the clearance of GRA arrears by Zimbabwe has no effect on the application of the Fund's procedures for the treatment of outstanding arrears to the PRGF-ESF Trust. Zimbabwe, therefore, remains excluded from the list of PRGF-eligible countries.

Consequently Zimbabwe is still in arrears to the tune of US$119 Million.

That is why Financial restrictions on loans and other Credits are suspended.

See link to this decision here:-

http://www.imf.org/external/np/sec/pr/2001/pr0140.htm

Dave

Dave, Are you telling me that Zimbabwe remains inelibible to get loans and other credits simply because it has not paid US$119 million? Can you not see for yourself that what you are saying does not make any sense as there are many other third world countries that are in arrears and having been so for a much longer period than Zimbabwe? Why are they still receiving loans and other credits if the criteria is non payment? The fact that Zimbabwe has gone out of its way to pay so much money at this moment in time should not only be commended but should also be rewarded.

The simple and naked truth that many of you will remain in denial of is that Zimbabweans are under sanctions for daring to take back their heritage that was in the hands of imperialist land lords that are in USA, UK, New Zealand, Canada, Australia, etc.

Its clear that any money from the IMF is simply going to be used to fund the lavish lifestyle of the ZANU PF ministers, so why lend anything to them? Especially when they dont even pay you back!

Washington and Brussels have imposed visa bans and asset freezes on Mugabe and other senior Zimbabwean officials. U.S. sanctions also bar Americans from engaging in any transactions or dealings with them.

"They (the sanctions) hurt the ordinary people ... if you have sanctions against the government then obviously investors will not want to deal with that government, tourists get frightened," Dlamini-Zuma told Reuters in Brussels. These are not economic santions against the country, but are on Mugabe and his thugs.

As Mugabe says you keep your Britain and I keep my Zimbabwe, then so be it The West must turn their backs on Mugabe and throw out his ambassadors, close the embassies in Harare, remove all aid organisations (not that they can do much today with the draconian regulations they are required to operate under coupled with their money being stolen), etc and let SADC/China bail out Mugabe. Note SA has not yet send the money, seeds, fertilizer promissed. Trevor Manuel stated that the funds would only be available when the govt. was in place and the funds/goods would only be administered by aid organisations. As these organisations do not work (due to Mugabe) how on earth is it all supposed to work. Sad state of affairs, even the Mugabe sycophants on this site must cringe.

Change in leadership within Southern Africa is beginning to show that Zimbabwe is the weakest link. This means that the new leaders will not advocate a status quo as the one pursued by former President Mbeki, who sides with Mugabe. It is obvious to all that there is something fundamentally wrong with Zimbabwe under the leadership of Mugabe.

All industries, hospitals, schools (once the best in Africa) are all going to the toilet. Gold miners sell to Mugabe’s party and mugabe does not pay them back fair market value. Tobacco farmers sell their produce to Mugabe, who in turn should pay them a decent producer prize, but that does not happen. So, what is the incentive for farming or mining..Virtually nothing!!!The idea that a country that is surrounded by other African countries can unilateral be attacked by western countries according to Mugabe’s propaganda, is total absurd! Yet, repeatedly Mugabe cronies make this nonsense argument.

There is too many things wrong with Zimbabwe that any solution requires a tough approach to Mugabe and it is nice to hear some of what President Khama and others are saying about Zimbabwe.

Phiri - you raise an interesting point. Notwithstanding the drastic reduction in mining and agricultural output, there is still enough produced from state controlled sales to generate tens of millions of US$ in export income. And yet Gono has been forced to steal from aid agencies; he has been forced to steal from the gold miners such that Metallion has closed 5 mines; he has been forced deprive tobacco producers of the 75% of forex earings that they are entitled to and even the supply of safe water has been stopped because Zinwa cannot import chemicals. (He was however able to quickly find US$6.5m when the aid agencies threw up a fuss. So there are some forex reserves some where.)

The point is water treatment chemicals, fertilizer and seed imports should still be affordable even when exports are much reduced. They are hardly big ticket items. I am also assuming that fuel and power have to be paid for. So where is that forex leaking? Defense spending? Swiss bank accounts? Who knows.

Katz, your addition about the fact that there is enough still produced in Zimbabwe from state controlled sales to generate foreign currency is a very good point. Gono, basically has joined the mafia gov't of Robert Mugabe..They are basicaly thieves. This is the point that backers of Mugabe and Gono fail to see or realize what is going on. The problems faced by Zimbabwe have very little to do with the Western world, but mismanagement and thieves. I cannot believe that the Zimbabwean Gov't is forcing generators (mining, industries)of foreign currency to shut down!

Foreign investors still want to invest in Zimbabwe, but not in this current situation! They fear now that if they invest, their names maybe "soiled" with Robert Mugabe's regime. Tourists want to come to Zimbabwe, but not with the current situation. I'm afraid that decent countries that still support the people of Zimbabwe will now seriuosly start cutting whatever they can. It has become unbearable!

Hey Takunya, even if Zimbabwe were under sanctions and not getting money from international banks etc, why do you care? You have boldly said that "they can keep their stinking money". So where do you get off complaining? By the way I would like to make a suggestion to you. See the postings Awt has made with about 51 of your lies, I would suggest that you and your com padres, keep a copy handy so that each time you feel like repeating a lie, look it up and desist. Maybe by the end of it all you will have no more lies and you will spare the readers of such obvious brain- washing and ignorance of the situation in Zimbabwe. For one thing you do not even know what democracy is. Without that knowledge, you are ignorant of the root causes of your country's decline and are therefore of no use in the uplifting of Zimbabwe. I will repeat, Zimbabwe was beautiful, and sound economically through the hard work of Zimbabweans and through fiscal responsibility, and when Mugabe inherited it from Ian Smith, all he had to do was give the people democracy - the freedom and dignity that they died for. What was so hard for Mugabe to do that?

Haha Takunya is getting smashed in this thread!

"SA's softly softly approach to the Zimbabwe crisis .." Listen here, little apartheid man. There is NO crisis in Zimbabwe. Cde Mugabe has the situation under control.

To wit:

Sen Obama campaigned in the elections in USA and he was the winner. Case closed.

Cde Mugabe campaigned in the elections in Zimbabwe and he was the winner. Case open, you would say, because the muzungu's boy did not win?

Mr Odinga campaingned for the elections in Kenya and he was the winner. Case still open, you would tell those natives, because the muzungu's houseboy Kibaki was not the winner?

Indeed. The government of maZimbabwe, by amaZimbabwe, for maZimbabwe shall endure.

Wyndham Hartley, Cape Town "Mbeki has been accused of favoring the octogenarian leader "

You would suggest that we condemn Cde Mugabe on account of his 'age'. Of course you have a bagful of propaganda tricks: If it was not "age' then you would pull out another tag - like "socialism" that was successful in the case of Lumumba and Nkrumah. Maybe you would suggest "incompetence" as in the case of Al Hajj Idi Amin Dada - since those blacks are always listless, and incompetent and generally require guidance from the white man, right?

A few days ago, there were some past and current political and literary 'leaders' who met in Nigeria - including Yakub Gowon, Raila Odinga etc - and loudly condemned Africa, the African and the African leaders with regard to Africa's problems.

1) They were quick to condemn Cde Mugabe with regard to the financial difficulties brought about by the draconian economic and financial sanctions imposed on the country by the USA and EU countries. Now that there is an ongoing financial meltdown in the west - worse that that in Zimbabwe - let us hear these same leaders loudly condemn the west. Let us hear them insist - after the manner of the IMF, World Bank, UK and USA governments to African leaders in similar difficulties - that the government CANNOT bail out ailing sectors or prop them up by owning failing banks and other businesses. [Because such an act, so the west would insist, is tantamount to embracing the evils of socialism/marxism/communism/"African socialism" - and that calls for regime change.]

2) Western leaders have come together to confront the financial meltdown that has thrown their countries into a recession. Have the loud African leaders suggested any common stance - regarding interest rates, banking regulation, trade, etc - to confront the repercussions on the economies of the African countries due to the financial meltdown in Zimbabwe and in the western countries? No really. The 'leaders' ('lackeys' really) seem to be waiting for the imperial west and the supremely acquisitive IMF and the incompetent World Bank to tell them what to do. And many of the 'leaders' seem to think that the cause and the solution of all issues lie in the political arena. Yet they have not called on leaders of the ailing west to resign EN MASSE - or change their political ideologies!

3) It seems to me that Mr Odinga being a leader of a government of the destitute natives in Kenya where the looting lawmakers - including Odinga - take home in 'salary' and 'benefits' more that the USA's lawmakers do, is something worthier of condemnation than going to Nigeria to condemn Cde Mugabe who is ensuring - against awesome foreign imperial might - that the people of maZimbabwe own their ancestral lands. Foreigners strut on Kenya's fertile savannas. And the foreigners reign supreme in Kenya's critical sectors of their economy. And the foreigners maintain military bases in Kenya.

4) Those leaders were quick to condemn the elections in Zimbabwe in which Cde Mugabwe won an overwhelming mandate from the people of maZimbabwe. But Raila Odinga cannot tell us what happened during Kenya's elections 20007. If there were no winners, then what can we say about the state of governance in Kenya? Has an audit of the electoral exercise been carried out to the extent that we can be confident that anomalies will not recur during the next presidential elections in Kenya - 4 years from now? NO. Condemn. Condemn.

5) What are those wise 'leaders' (who loudly condemn other leaders in Africa) going to do with regard to the humanitarian crisis in fabulously-wealthy Congo? Are they going to commit their countries' forces towards stabilizing the Congo and capturing Kagame dead or alive - and bringing him to trail and a deserved hanging for crimes against humanity which he has committed over the decades?

They dare not: Their handlers would not let them.

Raila Odinga cannot predicate his claim to leadership of Africa on 'hot air' alone. We have heard the arguments he is rehashing out there for more than 40 years - from the more lucid Lumumba, Nyerere and Nkrumah, the leading sons of Africa. The bar has been set high. Odinga must come up with more. Save us the chorus Raila: We understand the causes. It is up to Raila, the wise man, to come up with executive action. [Then he will discover that - in the hostile environment populated by cutthroat westerners surviving off Africa's wealth - it is NOT as easy doing something about it as it is easy and safe merely talking about it and condemning others - the AFRICANS - for Africa's woes.]

Chokora, you rightly say "Sen Obama campaigned in the elections in USA and he was the winner. Case closed". For Mugabe in Zimbabwe you say "case open". Right again and of course. But you simply cannot compare the two. You cannot compare democracy of the United States of America to the dictatorship of Zimbabwe. Whilst Obama was campaigning and going from state to state, how many beatings and intimidation of the Republicans did he leave in his path? After the elections how many people who did not vote for Obama did Obama's Democrats go after, intimidating, burning alive even women and children, raping and killing like these people were not living and breathing human beings as Mugabe and Zanu-pf did? If you are Zanu-pf, was it right for you to impinge on on their freedoms of choice as for whom to vote? Who gave you the power to decide who must live and who must die? Are you all Almighty God? NO. You are thugs and murderers who no longer deserve to serve the people of Zimbabwe as you have proved beyond all measure, to your country and to the world at large. This unity government in Zimbabwe would not be necessary had Mugabe allowed FREE, repeat FREE and FAIR elections and had therefore won fair and square as Obama did in America. That is the reason Mugabe barred international observers to his mickey mouse election - so that he would manipulate the results to his favor. It didn't work. In fact, had butcher Mugabe not intimidated and beat up innocent MDC voters, this unity government would never have been necessary because Mr Tsvangirai would have won fair and square and Zimbabwe would now be on the road of recovery. Whether you want to hear it or not, Mugabe is your problem in Zimbabwe. Mr Tsvangirai is the man who is being cheated of his rightful place as the legitimate leader of Zimbabwe. It's a fact, just swallow it.

Its pretty simple really.... how many Republicans got murdered during the election? how many MDC supporters got murdered during the election? how many times did McCain get arrested? How many times did Tsvangirai get arrested? How many times did Bush refuse international aid to the US? How many times tid Mugabe refuse aid to Zimbabe? How many times did Obama's rally's get cancelled? How many times did Tsvangirai's rallys get cancelled? How many times did Bush ban foreign journalists from reporting from the US? How many times did Mugabe ban foreign journalists reporting from Zimbabwe? H ow many times did Mugabe falsely claim that his people were under sanctions? How many times did Obama claim his people were under sanctions? How many military were told by Bush that they had to vote Republican or they would face the consequences? How many military in Zimababwe were told they had to vote Mugabe or face the consequences? How long did it take for the US to count votes from a population of 200 million, how long did it take for Mugabe to fudge the results from the March 29 election? How many farms lie unproductive in the US in the hands of government minsters? How many farms in zimbabwe lay unproductive in the hands of government ministers? How many people from the US have fled to neighbouring countries? How many people fled to neighbouring countries from Zimbabwe? how many times did Mugabe change the GNU agreement before it was signed, without the opposition knowing? How much money from foreign aid has been used for the US to fund lavish lifestyles of politicians? How much money from foreign aid has been used for the Zimbabwean government to fund its lavish lifestyle? Does Obama even have to form a government with McCain? Why does Mugabe have to form a government with Tsvangirai? Is there a threat of civil war in Zimbawe? Is there a threat of civil war in the US? Whats the motivation for a maximum of 2 4 year terms in the US? Whats the motivation for a dictator to rule till death in Zimbawe? I could go on for ever.

Awt, Amen brother and that's the difference and the truth. If Mugabe and his Zanu-pf stooges and bloody fools cannot swallow this information, I will be more than happy to send them cholera free water with which to swallow.