If other countries should go in and violently end the existing regime in Zim, that would be considered 'interfering' in the autonomy of the country; if other countries stay out of the battle being fought there for how long now, they are attacked for a so-called 'don't care' attitude. The world out there HAS tried: has spoken out against Mugabe , boycott Mugabe, Mbeki has tried hard to help the parties settle peacefully, South Africa is bearing part of the brunt too ( in terms of refugees, now cholera patients that need medical care), people of faith have been praying for years for Zim, etc. But of course Mugabe ignores all but his own self interest! What other leverage does the world have now but try sanctions/witholding aid? More handouts will merely allow Mugabe to continue his devilish rule - the easy way out.

Save your pathos soaked rhetoric for sunday school: what you really want is "regime chantge."

If that is what you want, you are wasting time posting herein: go to Harare, and do "regime change" there.

Actually.. 57% of Zimbabweans said they also want "Regime Change" in the only election recognised as free and fair by both the SADC and AU. I guess he's in the majority then.

Was "regime change" good for Lumumba's Congo? Siad Barre's Somalia? Selasie's Ethiopia? Hussein's Iraq (where nearly a million innocent Iraqi have died or been dislocated)?

So, dear innocence, 57% want 'regime change'.

I can do a survey that would show that more than 57% LOVE the land of maZimbabwe, LOVE Cde Mugabe, want NO talk of 'regime change' and want treasonous Tsvingrai to be executed.

Beware of surveys: Garbage in, garbage out.

What about Obama? Will that "regime change" be good for the USA? You cant say "regime change" is a bad thing. Its a natural thing for a democratic country. All democratic countries have regime change on a regular basis.

What you are saying is that a Dictatorship is safer. But you can see what a Dictatorship has done to Zimbabwe over the last 28 years. Look at the state of it. Dont you think its time to give someone else a go?

How bad does it need to get before you realise that Zimbabwe, under Mugabe is f'ed?

You give 3 examples of where "regime change" has been bad. What about the change from Ian Smiths government? What about the change from Aparthied in SA? I could give you hundreds of examples where regime change has benefitted a nation. But you only have 3 where it hasnt.

The only way you could do a survey of Zimbabweans to get 57% saying they LOVE Mugga is to threaten them with violence before hand, like you did before the run off election.

I am away that one should be aware of surveys, but when the 57% of people come from the official (and I suspect flawed) election results then they must be taken more seriously than a simple survey.

Its because of blind people like you that Zimbabwe slides further into the pit. Wake up!

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Is the change from a Labour Government to a National Government in New Zealand a regime change? Is it a bad thing? I think you are the one that needs to understand what a change in regime is.

Apparently you do not understand what is entailed in "regime change". You may have noticed that the rapes, torture, killings and plunder did not stop in Iraq with the murder of their democratically-elected, popular leader Saddam Hussein. As experienced in Africa when murderous Europeans moved in, their entire political ideology, social structure and their culture/traditions including religion and language - are also targeted for elimination/ change.

And of course the women are raped - to plant a new breed of half-people that will be beholden to the western country/race of the masters - as was the case when the Spaniards embarked on "regime change" in South America.

For instance, if the Africans embarked on a "regime change" in UK the project would not stop with the elimination of the top leaders: The entire political and social setup will have to be changed. Their icons will be targeted for elimination as well - including their BBC, tower of london and "big ben". And the kids in kindergartens will have new heroes and childhood rhymes. And that is just a sampler.

And those snooty English yokels may yet love to talk and wax leaned in isiZulu.

I think its you that does not understand "Regime Change" why does it have to be violent? If you as me "Regime Stay the Same" in Zimbabwe has resulted in just as much rape, murder and torture. Look at all the peaceful regime changes around the world, starting with Obama. No one murdered there, and everyone sees it as for the better.

Saddam was never democratically elected, he is from the minority sunni's and the majority Shiites would have voted him out in no time in a democratic election if there ever was one that was free and fair.

I dont think you can blame the west for rapes in Zimbabwe either. You do enough of them without the wests help.

"Zimbabwe, under Mugabe is f'ed"

If you are awake, you may have read that there is a severe financial meltdown all over the world - especially in the USA. People are experiencing tremondous hardships. Companies re collapsing and workers are being laid off. Homes are lost and the homeless hit the streets or board up with relatives.

Is the west - and Japan, China, South Korea - sitting around chanting "USA is fed up!" and waiting for a miracles and a messiah? NO.

If "regime change" is the solution to every country's problems, why is it not pushed for Kenya, Uganda, Morocco, South Africa, Botswana, Lesotho etc where the native suffers just as acutely - and even more so - as in Zimbabwe? How about prescribing the same dose for the European countries?

They are not talking politics of racial supremacy and imperial plunder through "regime change" in western countries.

They re not foolishly talking - like Odinga who thinks he has solutions even as unemployment runs at over 65% in his Kenya where high-earning plundering MPs pay no taxes on income.

They are discussing ways of jump starting the economy by imposing regulations and the government gaining ownership in business.

[Did the IMF, World Bank and the West say that third world governments should not be involved in business? That is what we tell their loud boy Odingas to push.]

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"Zimbabwe, under Mugabe is f'ed"

"If you are awake, you may have read that there is a severe financial meltdown all over the world - especially in the USA. People are experiencing tremondous hardships. Companies re collapsing and workers are being laid off. Homes are lost and the homeless hit the streets or board up with relatives" I'd still rather be in the USA under these condidtions than in Zimbabwe. Pretty simple really.

How many Americans were murdered for voting for the opposition?

YOU neglected to close the equation: the real garbage concocted by the REACTION---MT, the darling of the REACTION.

I would not recommend his "execution"; rather, I think that a more efficacious treatment WOULD BE re-education at Camp ZANU/PF in Harare.

The upstart!

you mean the same "re-education camp" that led to the brutal torture and murders of many MDC supporters during the elections. You're a disgrace.

No.

I mean basic primary school education, which you obviously did not receive.

If I am a disgrace, then you are a disgrace raised to exponent 1000.

Once again you have nothing substantive to say so you persist in attacking the messenger. You clearly have no arguement so you choose to change the subject. Plain for all to see. Thanks for continually showing us what lack of substance you have.

Under voodoo or juju mathematics, I suppose, MT tail.

If "juju" means simple, then yes, juju mathematics. Lets work it our shall we.

For Butcher of Harare - 43% Against Butcher of Harare 100% - 43% = 57%

Yup pretty simple maths. Maybe you should study maths rather than english. sounds like you have a lot of catching up to do.

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Not bad, 10 comma's in the space of 2 lines. I've noticed, your comments, are rather difficult, to read, as, there are, so many, commas. It just doesnt flow of the tongue like my beautiful posts do. PS why follow an "and" with a comma. No point. Just so you know for next time punctuation boy.

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What good are words? You can eat them, but they won't keep yuo from starving.

Frankly by your posts, you have shown your immaturity. It would also appear the only thing you have is rhetoric, no substance.

As I've said, communication is all about being understood. If you cant understand what I say, then you need to go back to school.

Everyone can see through the fact that you are trying to distract the boards with discussion on grammer and spelling, rather than the topic of the thread because you simply have nothing to say about it. You have no depth. No substance. And everyone can see it.

awt_independent's grammar and diction are just as bad as jallohlaw's so I don't know why he bothers criticising in those terms. He puts apostrophes on plurals and his spelling (or typos...?) is sloppy.

Here is a silly pot calling the kettle black: before you even respond, please put a "comma" after "jallohlaw's" in badly crafted text supra.

Of course, the unequivocal signal of an obscurantist is the projection of allegations without an evidentiary basis.

And here, dude, the cap fits you perfectly, to a T, as the Yankees put it.

You wanna come back with some more grammar clap trap? I'm game. I am waiting in the proverbial African bush for you.

you want to play grammer because you have no substance. its clear for all to see.

I wasnt the one claiming perfect grammer and spelling like shallowhead. Mainly trying to say that it doesnt matter, as long as you are understood. This isnt a literary competition.

Hello there AWT, it's been a while. I see the apologists for McGarbage are still rife on this forum.

I am in full agreement with your post that this chap is verbose in the extreme. He seems to subscribe to the viewpoint that he should use 50 words where 15 will do.

We could all label an item a, "manually operated alluvial mobility implement", when it is in fact....a spade.

Lawyers in the UK were, in the distant past; paid by the word which is why English Law is so convoluted. Jallohlaw could have made a decent living.

The way he changed the subject from MATHS ((colloquial, UK, Australia, Ireland, singular) Short form of mathematics) to an argumentum ad hominem attack on grammar and the correct spelling of a word was juvenile at worst, clumsy at best. The, “ad-hom'” is the most obvious and easily spotted of the logical fallacies used by someone who has nothing to say, “He is wrong, look at his tasteless shirt!”, for example.

He types a lot but in the final analysis he says very little, as my grandfather used to say, "There's frilly curtains in the windows but fv(k-all in the fridge". There was a man who knew how to make words count.

Jallohlaw is a, "word fiddler" like most of the apologists for Comrade Sir Robber McGarbage. Do we all remember what Nero did while Rome burned? HE FIDDLED!

And, I suppose you imagine your convoluted text supra ain't no "fiddling"? Wrong: fiddling, it is, period and out.

Worse: talk of a man who fails to see his own shadow! Your text ROCKS in ocean ad hominem attacks. Or, perhaps you are not reflexive. Very well, dude: read it now!

Finally, I am delighted to announce to the world that another MT tail, sired antecedently thereto, by the archaic Racist, Smithie, the coward who ran with his tail between his wobbly legs when the AFRICAN FORCES OF LIBERATION, led by the GREAT FIGHTER AND RACIST HAMMER, Cdr. MUGABE, took "his" fiefdom, HAS RAISED HIS UGLY HEAD.

MY HAMMER OF CRUSHING RHEORICAL AFRICAN SPEARS AWAITS YOUR NEXT TRASHY POST, WHICH I SHALL SHATTER WITH THE BLOOD THAT YOUR IMPERIALIST ANCESTORS HAVE SPILLED IN AFRICA, IN GENERAL, AND ZIMBABWE, IN PARTICULAR.

"MY HAMMER OF CRUSHING RHEORICAL AFRICAN SPEARS AWAITS YOUR NEXT TRASHY POST, WHICH I SHALL SHATTER WITH THE BLOOD THAT YOUR IMPERIALIST ANCESTORS HAVE SPILLED IN AFRICA, IN GENERAL, AND ZIMBABWE, IN PARTICULAR"

Blah blah blah... whatever.

Yes Glyph, has been a while indeed. Couldnt agree more about your post. Lets just call a spade a spade and not try and complicate the matter.

He's just a time waster, thats all.

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and I choose to write the way I do, and be understood. And theirs nothing you can do about it either. So get used to it punctuation boy.

now you see it... now you dont! haha

Hello there AWT, it's been a while. I see the apologists for McGarbage are still rife on this forum.

I am in full agreement with your post that this chap is verbose in the extreme. He seems to subscribe to the viewpoint that he should use 50 words where 15 will do.

We could all label an item a manually operated alluvial mobility implement when it is in fact....a spade.

Lawyers in the UK were, in the distant past; paid by the word which is why English Law is so convoluted. Jallohlaw could have made a decent living.

The way he changed the subject from MATHS ((colloquial, UK, Australia, Ireland, singular) Short form of mathematics) to an argumentum ad hominem attack on grammar and the correct spelling of a word was juvenile at worst, clumsy at best.

The, “ad-hom'” is the most obvious and easily spotted of the logical fallacies used by someone who has nothing to say, “He is wrong, look at his tasteless shirt!”, for example.

He types a lot but in the final analysis he says very little, as my grandfather used to say, "There's frilly curtains in the windows but fv(k-all in the fridge". He was a man who knew how to make words count.

Jallohlaw is a, "word fiddler" like most of the apologists for Comrade Sir Robber McGarbage. Do we all remember what Nero did while Rome burned? HE FIDDLED!

To those who can actually see beyond post #10 I apologise for the duplicate posting.

like I said... simple maths. Shame your comments keep disappearing dont you think?

And I say "math," heir to the rape of Africa.

This time around, dude, we will drown you in toxic fighting words, and if you wanna nook it out in Harare, the Fighter's batallions will be waiting for your fickle rag tag conscripts from Camp Odinga, the ignoramus. Assured decimation awaits your bellicosity.

Dream of Smithie tonight. the unlettered racist, whose spit image YOU ARE.

WE have been waiting for this war of words for decades. Now, let us nook it out.

Of course, should you resort to profane lexemes, you know the consequence, don't you: DELETION, BOY.

Of course, should you boneheadedly persist in PATH diction profanity, YOU SHALL BE BANNED.

By the way, the Great Fighter is absolutely enjoying the decimation of Smith's tails on this Forum. As for Odinga, my sources report that the Fighter thinks he is nuts.

And, I concur under grounds too perspicuous to posit.

Thanks for the post... makes it really easy to see what an idiot you are. Thanks for that. love you xx

Why don't you go to Harare and battle it out with the people of Zimbabwe, battle to get water and food. You little Shallow man who has no ideas how to help these people. Rather you try to castigate everyone with your simplistic comments like "save your pathos soaked rhetoric for Sunday school" People are dying because of trolls like you.

Why do I have to go HARARE, dude? The Fist of African manhood, the Great Cdr. MUGABE RE-PRESENTS the people of Zimbabwe. And, he has my unconditioned support. You may support the sprinter MT, if you wish, or for that matter, the tails and epigoni of the RACIST, Smith, the deceased obscurantist.

I should think if you have a problem with THAT, YOU have to nook it out with the people of Zimbabwe. But, before you the people, you have to aufgeheben the LION himself:

I suppose I don't have to objectify the absolute annihilation of your warped subjectivity that would rock WHEN YOU DECIDE TO DO BATTLE with the FIST OF AFRICA.

The only 'assistance' we've got from the west IS unwarranted interference and sanctions that have hurt the people more than the so-called targets. Everything we are experiencing now is the full 'assistance' of the west. the person who is saying (on this page) that is 'would be deemed interference' is right - what can they do for us but effect the regime change they so greedily desire? NOTHING! And that is exactly what they have done for the people of Zimbabwe. A little rap on the knuckles for our government would have been enough but NO - they want idiot MThead to collect everything so he can hand it over to them. It's nothing but greed all round and the people suffer. The 'blame Mugabe' game has become very lame. Even if he goes who do we think will 'save' Zimbabwe? it will just be the same old carcass of a once magnificent lion waiting for the vultures to tear it apart before it is even dead...

Pathetic comments from a Shallow dude

By the way aufgeheben is not a word, German or other

Herr: Die Wort 'aufgeheben' ist eine Wort, ectliche Wort in der Deutche Sprache. Jetz, gehen Sie nach Hause, die MT Hause.

And, by the way, you can find it in Hegel's Wissenschaft der Logik.

Now, go get your ignorant MT to refute this thread. How silly! And, wrongheaded.

Pass go nar hos!

aufgeheben ist kein Wort in der Deutsch languge Sie kleine Mann. glaube nicht, dass durch das Werfen in Deutsch Worte zu Ihrem Dialog macht es Sie clever. Gehen Sie weg schnell

Herr, eine auseinandersetzung hier ist grundliche unmoeglich, weil ihrem Deutch unverstandlich ist.

So, come back to English, where you will clubbered more mercifully than in German, for auf Deutch I shall deploy what the Romans called Gallican FUROR, REFLECTIVELY, of course.

Another empty MT/Smith/Rhodesian geht unter, goes under.

The blood of the warrior rocks in my soul, as it does in Cdr. MUGABE's.

Are you game, archaic bourgeois?

Dude i suppose you live in fear of your family and well-being. Thats why you open your mouth wide to say bull-sh.it on this site. I don't blame you, you need the money. If you stop writing, no bread for you. It seems to me that you are actually paid to defend the regime on this site. Deep down you know you've run out things to say so you incooperate elaborate words that the average reader cannot understand. Your language is to confuse not to enlighten others. But I'm afraid to say your masters are failing and there'll be no bread for you. Keep on,...your family needs the money. But I advise other people on this page not to take you seriously but to pray for your survival because the end is fast approaching.

Dude i suppose you live in fear of your family and well-being. Thats why you open your mouth wide to say bull-sh.it on this site. I don't blame you, you need the money. If you stop writing, no bread for you. It seems to me that you are actually paid to defend the regime on this site. Deep down you know you've run out things to say so you incooperate elaborate words that the average reader cannot understand. Your language is to confuse not to enlighten others. But I'm afraid to say your masters are failing and there'll be no bread for you. Keep on,...your family needs the money. But I advise other people on this page not to take you seriously but to pray for your survival because the end is fast approaching.

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You really need to work on your English. Its poor and hard to follow due to using many words from your thesaurus and out of context. Please do better next time.

The world Dithers? I think it is the Sadc and African Union Leaders that are dithering. If a leader in Africa speaks the truth he is castigated one wonders when the day will come when they will all say "Hey LETS GET OUR ACT TOGETHER

Mugabe has proven how selfish diabolic and shallow he is, he would rather see millions perish just as he did during the Rhodesian civil war; furthermore he is not an elected official. Grace and the kids have left for his Villa in Angola where they live like royals while our kids and families suffer for refusing to vote for ZANU.

Indeed, the forum trolls are quite proud that they can blame the builders of the Golden Age that is rapidly drawing to an end, no matter what they do. Even if they do nothing, the act of doing nothing can be labelled "sanctions," and roundly condemned until the mass of people too ignorant to know what the word means, only that it is bad and they heard it's reason they are starving, lash out in destructive fury against the very people who are trying to feed them.

And the forum trolls laugh, and continue their work to end the Age of Reason, because they would literally rather be slaves in Hell than citizens in Heaven, so much do they revel in the pain and misery of those around them.

Who are the builders of the golden age you talk about, smith? no, he was a monster who had selfish interests and committed genocide against the people of Zimbabwe and as such doe,nt qualify for that position.If leaving Africa to it,s fate is so easy, why not just pack your bags and leave us to our fate? no because your economies will crumble and you know it, self interest, greed, that,s all you,ve shown Africa and that,s what we are vehemently opposing today.Africa is no longer going to be a plunders paradise, get it.

"history will be the judge of who stood where and did what at this time of Zimbabwe's need!" OK, wise guy. Tell us this:

Iraq was invaded by Europeans because it had weapons of mass destruction - which they did not have. More than a million humans killed or dislocated. A civilization razed.

What did the Catholic Church say about it? Nothing And what of the Church of England? Neither did the Church of England.

"history will be the judge where the Christians and their god(s) stood and did what at this time of Iraq's need!"

By the way, there is a financial meltdown that dwarfs that in Zimbabwe which is currently underway in USA, UK, EU countries etc. Is a "regime change" in order? Who is the clown?

The report is mixed up. The author is behaving like the South African government. This talk of blaming the political leaders is not productive. How many political rulers does Zimbabwe have at the moment. The blame solely belongs to the party that stole the election and is now failing to rule. I don't see how the MDC leaders can be blamed for a crisis which was caused by Mugabe and ZANU (PF). Mugabe should have accepted defeat and left the capable people to preside over Zimbabwe. The talk of political rulers is meant to give the MDC people a false sense of collective governance of the country with ZANU (PF). The truth is that ZANU (PF) and Mugabe are solely and completely in charge of the country and are responsible for the crisis. Trying to address the symptoms without identifying its causes will not solve the problems in Zimbabwe. The crisis is mainly a political crisis. The health and economic crises are the symptoms of the political crisis. To resolve the crisis, the AU, SADC and the South African government should ask Mugabe to step down for the political leadership that was freely chosen by the Zimbabwean people on March 29, 2008.

Where we fail as Africans is the folly of our elected, or not, government officials to take a strong stand against Mugabe. There is this notion that just because one was a freedom fighter against colonial dominion, one has to enjoy ungodly privalages by visiting upon the masses untold misery when they opt to try another way. Unfortunately for the citizens of Zimbabwe they have a certifiable madman as president who insist on governing the collapsing country when inflation is in the record books and social services have ceased to exist resulting in manageable diseases such as cholera to further desimate an already traumatized population.

The situation wouldn't have gone so far if Mbeki and followers had argued an African solution to the crisis. There is only a humane solution to the betterment of a people. We shouldn't have to go through another round of suffering after the injustices of colonial rule. At least the colonists thought we were inferior whereas as Mugabe and his elk just have barbaric totalitarian tendencies. Mugabe is a dinosaur president because his friends such as Kenneth Kaunda, Julius Nyerere, Nelson Mandela, etc., have long given up their positions and their former dominions have since seen subsequent government changes.

Hence, the first step to bring Zimbabwe from the brink of disaster is for the regional leaders to strongly condemn his lawlessness and allow a generational change which is urgently required in that country.

" ..history will be the judge of who stood where and did what at this time of Zimbabwe's need! ..."

Dear Chap: And who stood where and did what at this time of great need in USA? In UK? In Germany? Japan? ...

Why should we bash Zimbabwe? Wanna try bashing UK and USA who are busy undermining ZIM - and drawing your naive applause in the process - even as those countries have dire problems raging?

Maybe you are too busy admiring your high-school-grade smartness to know that the rest of the world is suffering too, Are you aware that USA has been in a recession for over a year - even as they bash Zimbabwe? How about the financial meltdown in the USA that is revcerberting the world over?

And where are you standing as the west slaughters innocent Iraqi kids, their mothers and fathers - and razes a civilization?

How many of those innocent Iraqi's that are murdered are done so on religeous grounds by other iraqi's and by al-qaeda? Why dont you mention these? And I'd much rather be in the US under a recession than in Zimbabwe under Mugabe.

Grammar lessons: substitute "who" for "that." Can any competent user of the English Language hang sense on the clause "...that are murdered are done so on religious (sic) grounds by other Iraqis (sic)...."?

Additionally, "dont", as I have told you a million times is not an English word.

Mendacious one, you are right there in Harare in a well-known status.

Once again you have nothing substantive to say so you persist in attacking the messenger. You clearly have no arguement so you choose to change the subject. Plain for all to see. Thanks for continually showing us what lack of substance you have.

regardless of grammar, the only argument for mugabe is denying any culpability in the crisis that zimbabwe now faces and shifting all the blame to the west. there are plenty of countries doing ok with us sanctions (iran and cuba to name two), so us sanctions cannot be responsible for trillion percent inflation. i agree with land reform, but mugabe went about it the wrong way. is graca machel a tool of the west? how about desmond tutu? jimmy carter is thought of in the us as unpatriotic and far left for his political views (esp about israel). it is ridiculous to say that these people want to see zim fall at the expense of everyday zimbabweans. mugabe has isolated himself and his regime, transforming from nationalist hero to an old man struggling to retain his grip on power in the past 28 years. the west has negatively intervened in many countries throughout the world, including zim, but thats no excuse for the problems that mugabe has created.