I didn't think the British agree to by ALL the white commercial farms in Zimbabwe under the Lancaster Agreement! So out of almost 4200 white-owned commecial farms there will a dozen or two left? Mugabe expects the UK o buy ALL the farms? At least MT admitted it was because the Government of Zimbabwe has no money!

The money to compensate those farmers isn't coming from the "West"! Maybe claims should be filed with the AU Tribunal by the farmers who have been dispossessed? Maybe claims should be brought against the Government of Zimbabwe in the WTO?

The fact of the matter could not be more clearly stated by Trevor Gifford, "The reality is that the investors were shocked to hear the truth,"....."This government has a lot of work to do to restore property rights and the rule of law before any investment is forthcoming."

No reform, no money - apparrantly not even from the Chinese (although they will try and steal Zimbabwe's platinum).

"Total Empowerment!" - Empty rhetoric from morally bankrupt criminals.

Juhlman, Yes Britain is responsible for most of the payments to white farmers. In addition they are largely responsible for land distribution that favored white tiny...tiny...tin.. minority. Agreements were made and UK should have kept their word. Maybe it is true that you cannot trust an anglo white person. That is the impression they left.

White Rhodesian farmers are a liability to every Zimbabwean political leader. If you support them, you lose the elections. They also are to blame for seeking publicity abroad when they disagree with the black majority. They are a bad apple in our midst. That is the plain truth. They pretend to live in utopia. Morgan Tsvangirai will eventually abandon them as well, and he will still get my vote. Lets face the truth, not political correctness, white Zimbabwean farmers are resented and not liked by most majority Zimbabweans. Anybody is free to discuss this (and I hope not political correctness).

I see Phiri you are back to your old racist ways.

Why stop at farms, rush to homes and businesses, why not evict every white person from the country. You sure are not the solution to Zimbabwes problems. It is the mentalities like yours that are the problem in the world today. Your hate rehetorict should and needs to be consigned to the past.

Phiri, we often disagree but I would not go so far as to call you racist.

I, for one, actually do recognize the political liability that white farmers in Zimbabwe carry to ANYONE who would defend their cause. But the reality of it does NOT make it right! I agree they they might not even be popular, yet even you MUST agree that those farmers DID actually employ thousands, if not millions, of "black" Zimbabweans. Those farmers DID actually produce a surplus of agriculture that fed the nation and provided for export income.

And THAT was probably a useful place from which to BEGIN a just re-distribution of land in Zimbabwe - by taking a PORTION of the land being cultivated by white farmers (say 50-60%) and giving it to the "black" workers of those "white" farms who actually knew the land, had worked the land and knew how to grow things - not destroy things................. This would've allowed "white" farmers to continue their agricultural production (albeit on a reduced landholding) and then allowed their former employees to become successful commercial farmers in their own right! Such a course probably would not have caused such a drastic reduction in Zimbabwe's agricultural productivity while at the same time furthering the cause of land redistribution in a transparent and fair manner!

But sadly, I agree, MT will probably abandon the remaining "white" farmers for politically expediency if that's what it costs him to actually put an end to ZANU-PF's kleptocracy. His margin for error is very small................

However, you must acknowledge that the actual effect of ZANU-PF's "land redistribution" has been to destroy the agricultural productivity of Zimbabwe! How many of the "black" farm workers that formerly worked on "white" farms have received land that was "re-distributed"? Not only did these "black" Zimbabweans NOT receive land, but they also lost their jobs working on the white farms as those who had "Offer Letters" have allowed the land they received to go fallow!

On the other hand, who DID actually receive "Offer Letters"? How many MDC-T and MDC-M supporters have received them? Or, consider the agricultural productivity of the farms "re-distributed" as compared to before they were "re-distributed"?

Where is the justice in THAT!

Also, I definitely do NOT agree that the Lancaster Agreements intention was that ALL white farmers in Zimbabwe were to lose their entire farms!

I understand and am sympathetic to the redistribution of land as it pertains to what and how much was retained by the white minority following the Lancaster Agreements, but did the agreement really intend to dispossess almost the entire white minority of ALL of their land? I think not. Did the U.K. actually agree to reimburse ALL of the white farmers of Zimbabwe? What about those who purchased their land after the Lancaster Agreements were concluded? Should the U.K. be required to reimburse them as well?

Moreover, from a purely Kantian perspective, how has the land that has been "re-distributed" been tended by those that received it? If the land is not presently productive when it previously was, then isn't that a crime in and of itself when one half of Zimbabwe's population now requires foreign food aid to survive?

What is the common thread through EVERYTHING wrong in Zimbabwe since liberation? ZANU-PF/Mugabe! The "West" did not take previously productive land and turn it fallow. That would lead a reasonable person to question the manner and procedure by which the land was "re-distributed". Unfortunately, many here (not you Phiri) lack the intellect to ask such questions, they merely agree that things are bad, but retardedly conclude that it is the "West's" fault.

And NO, I will not engage in political correctness, and NO, it is NOT racist to actually discuss real issues that do exist between the races in Africa.

We disagree (as we often have), but you are one of the few I disagree with who have anything useful to contribute to the discussion here concerning Zimbabwe.

Peace Dude!

Julhmann ... l am glad and thankful for showing all posters that you are a reasonable and rational person. You are capable of contributing positive aspects to the debate to the way forward though you are limited by your failure to point out the lack of remorse for the racism and discriminatory practices of the British settlers (not the West ... lets be more specific as to who we are talking about). The rhodesians cannot pretend that they were killing their fellow country men and basically, in 1980, the lot of them were Soldiers of the losing side ... enemy soldiers and as such they should have been put in 'keeps'.

AK:

I have no time for remorse, I am not Rhodesian, I am not British, none of my family have ever owned slaves, we did not participate in Africa's colonial period or profit by it. I'm not a "party" to any of that............

However, if the people of Zimbabwe did not suffer as they do under ZANU-PF I wouldn't be so angry, in fact, I probably wouldn't have been drawn to the situation in Zimbabwe at all! Although I understand why certain groups still harbor anger towards the British for the legacy of the colonial period, what does any of that anger provide for the future? Are you going to be angry forever or are you going to "get on with the job" once you achieved your independence - 1980 was a long time ago, the record since then is NOT encouraging, Zimbabwe deserves better.

If the people were well fed and provided proper health care and education do you think anyone would complain if they were a repressed nation? It is only when the people suffer as a result of headstrong egocentric leadership is when the rest of the world truly pays attention to the condition of individual countries. How many of the world's governments are considered "repressive", yet in how many of them are the people starving, abandoning their sovereign currency, and subject to intermittent medical care and education. Admittedly, if ZANU-PF/Mugabe hadn't mucked things up so terribly, I probably would've never been motivated to learn more about it's history and problems.

My message to ZANU-PF/Mugabe is: If you were gong to repress your people, at least you could've done it in a way that doesn't cause the people to starve, lack medical care or shut down the education system.......

I'm not a Rhodie, I'm not even pro-MDC-T, but I am horrified at what ZANU-PF has done to Zimbabwe and see MT as the best chance for a better tomorrow, sooner rather than later.

Even IF you are a ZANU-PF/Mugabe supporter, you MUST at least acknowledge that WHATEVER they have done has NOT achieved it's intended purpose (other than to enrich themselves at the nation's expense) - and this has gone on for 30 years!

Tak is an idiot, I think Richarson88 only shows up here to stir things up, Phiri means well - I trust in that even though I disagree with him most of the time, I'm not sure if Mabhiza isn't Tak and I think I've shown our recent comrade "Uplift" to be a waste of valuable cyberspace..........

AK - you say some pretty incendiary things here.......... although I regularly ridicule you here too.......... so I guess we're even................

If you want to discuss a way out of Zimbabwe's current predicament that is somewhat satisfactory to ALL parties, I am listening - I will be open minded, but do NOT spout ZANU-PF's party line at me, because that simply will not solve the current problems of Zimbabwe.

Do you want to quibble about the past, (although some sort of "Truth and Reconciliation" like SA's is inevitably necessary) or look towards the future of ALL Zimbabweans?

What is your plan............. detail it, we'll discuss it, but Mugabe isn't going to be around forever, we need to discuss what happens next.........

Julhman, my boy ... firstly l must thank you for your post, an eye opening post, indeed. Instead of calling each other names etc we are now discusing matters in a constructive mode. Now about the ongoing important matter about what Zimbabwe has to do with the Rhodesians and all those who fought very hard to stop the birth of Zimbabwe, (lots of Africans were in this group). What is their place in Zimbabwe? The Rhodies remained aloof and refused to mix and mingle with the new polititical leaders. That was their main mistake. There was no remorse or sorriness fro them

Akapfunde - you say that the 'rhodies remained aloof and refused to mix with the new leaders'. It is very difficult to be able to verify this, but it does occur to me that had the 'rhodies' not been seen to be mixing with the MDC leaders things may have gone better for them.

Most successful ethnic minorities around the world tend to keep a low profile; I'm not sure whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, but I am sure that it is too one dimensional to simply say that the 'rhodies' brought it on themselves. Like the asians in Uganda or the chinese in Malayasia and Indonesia, the 'rhodies' were a soft target for populist politics. (By the way it is interesting to note that both sides of politics in Malayasia now want to dismantle the bumiputra laws which have discriminated against non-indigenous Malayasians.)

Katz ... l meant the rhodies were aloof in 1980 whereas the southAfricans whites never gave up and started running and getting involved from the first day. They engage ang were engaged.

Ak, by what you are saying , I believe, you all in all are quite a decent guy. I am and always have been willing to speak to anyone in a constructive manner for the better of all in our country. Yes i can agree to disagree with you and others and be able to give as good as i get given . As you and Julman are prepared to speak instead of accusing, that shows there can be a better way forward as opposed to a war of words. Yes I was born as a White Rhodesian, but that does not mean that i liked or loved the way how many native Zimbabweans were treated by the idiots who wanted to rule in a way to put down the majority by any means possible. As I stand by the Word of God , that era was wrong just as it is now. It is how we view the future for the better of all and learn from repeating the same mistakes again and again.

Zazuuu ... inspite of our different backgrounds and experiences, you grew up privileged so and so and l was only ten years when, with 4 other boys, were locked up at southerton police station and transferred to the main prison where we were made to clean the area around where people were hanged including shifting the metal coffin kept near the point where bodies were collected. Two weeks after this, l was back in my mission school doing form 2. Reason ...we had frightened the wits out of a policeman who had been bullying us...by threatening to burn him using the paraffin which we were taking home from Machipisa shopping centre. Rhodesia was downright racist but Zimbabwe is a case of people who cannot swim taking possesion of the pool, someof them jump in and drawn, others just mess about along the edges... but the important point is that these guys are so sturborn to accept outside help and be shown how to stay afloat ... mainly because the guys offering help were responsible for the ignorance and lack of know-how of the current leadership of Zimbabwe. Mind you, having university education has nothing to do with being focused and principled. Now the little thing about the new order ... l would humbly suggest... Scrapping : 1. Provinces/govrenors and revert to District Commissioners, 2. Resident ministers, 3. Foreign ministry as an entity but attach it to Prime minister's office as a dept. Reduce the number of embassies to about ten only ... westafrica, northafrica, europe, china, USA/northamerica, Latinamerica/carib, Australiasia, India, Russia, Souteast asia. Our government needs only about ten ministries namely Prime ministerwith defence and foreign being attached as depts. Agriculture and Water, Homeoffice, Finance, Education, Transport/communication, Localgovt/housing, Energy/mining, Health, Industry/Commerce. What do you think?

Juhlman;

One thing you should know is that an agreement is something entered into by or between more than one person otherwise it is not an agreement. The British, being racist that they are, did not want us to take a square inch of our stolen land. They would have preferred to have their kith and kin control all our resources and we remain their slaves.

That is why they inserted the 10-year moratorium during which time we were not supposed to take our stole heritage back and this is also why they agreed to compensate their kith and kin for the land itself leaving us to compensate white colonialists for improvements on the land.

We, on our party, would have preferred to get or repossess our stolen heritage in 1980. We could not because we were bound by this UK-crafted Lancaster House Constitution and so precisely because of that we waited until after the expiry of the period stipulated by the Lancaster document.

Now after it expired we still get to be criticized by racist fools like you Julhman for daring to take back what rightfully belong to us - our stolen heritage.

For your own information there is nothing like “white land” in Zimbabwe. Colonizers do not own land in our country and will NEVER do. If any white person owns or is going to own land in Zimbabwe it will be at our behest because they are simply invaders who forcibly took the land from us at gun point.

You now talk of "fair re-distribution" that leaves thief and robbers with everything as if the robbed has no rights. According to you rights only started after the dispossession of blacks, before invasion blacks did not have any shred of right to the land they had settled on for thousands and thousands of years.

I have not heard of any law in the world that gives rights to an armed robber – maybe in the white world where protection of imperialist interest is more important than the interests of those who were forcibly dispossessed in the first place.

Thus, when you ask, "Did the agreement really intend to dispossess almost the entire white minority of ALL of their land?” you are totally ignoring or failing to understand the fact that the “entire white minority” got the land they are holding or they were holding on to through barbaric force, extermination, slavery, genocide and through robbery.

Millions of black people of Zimbabwe were killed; entire villages were leveled and exterminated for resisting occupation. The same person who dispossessed me yesterday is now supposed to be treated as the owner of my heritage. How stupid can one be?

As for your assertion that the white farmers employed blacks; you should know that these racist, barbaric, and cruel people did not employ us but exploited and enslaved “thousands, if not millions, of "black" Zimbabweans”.

It all started at the time of colonialism when blacks were sent to “Chibharo” to work in order to pay “Hut Tax” through their sweat and blood. They were not paid a single penny for the work they did and this continued until independence in 1980. Anyone who complained was made to disappear without any trace at all.

So do not lecture us about how we were exploited and subjugated by these racist beasts because it was cruel and barbaric. If it was employment that benefited Zimbabweans why did they hire labor from countries in the region like Malawi, Zambia and Mozambique?

Was it not to exploit the farm-slaves because they did not have any say in how they were paid, what they were paid and how much they were paid because if they complain they were immediately killed by being thrown into disused mines or arrested for terrorism and were never seen walking again?

More than 90% of farm slaves were from the above mentioned country and Julhman tells me that these should have been given farms along side white farmers so that they become successful commercial farmers. What stupidity?

Are you aware that 99% of blacks working on commercial farms were just farm slaves who did not have formal education to the lowest level? Julhman, because of his foolishness which is a direct result of his imagined superiority complex, thinks that we were going to fall for that bait. We are cleverer than that.

And to say that white farmers were producing food for the people of Zimbabwe is to give credit where it is not due. 80% of all our food requirements came from subsistent black farmers; farming on barren, rocky and sandy soils to which they were pushed during colonialism.

White farmers underutilized the vast tracks of lands they illegally possessed, and most importantly kept the land for speculative purposes. Some became absentee landlords who benefited in their countries through the land they held in Zimbabwe.

The small portions of land (less than 5%) they put under cultivation were used to produce flowers and export produce like tobacco and paprika. Some farms were turned into ranches and wild animals were kept for hunter-tourists who deposited money in foreign accounts and would use the Zim dollar for all their sustenance while hunting. This did not benefit the country at all as it deprived us of the much needed forex.

The “manner and procedure by which the land was re-distributed” is the correct one for Zimbabwe because it was done according to the laws of the country. Anything else would have spelt chaos and would have meant going back to war over land. In less than 10 years Zimbabwe has successfully and legally taken back all its stolen lands and gave it to the rightful owners.

That is a success story that can NEVER be matched or achieved anywhere in the world without a revolution. President Mugabe should, therefore, be applauded for being magnanimous in victory, democratic and for being non-racial in the distribution of land in Zimbabwe.

Wow Tak! Who's the racist now? You continue to display your ignorant black heart for all to see - all you embrace is hate, what a pathetic, sad, individual you are!

"One thing you should know is that an agreement is something entered into by or between more than one person otherwise it is not an agreement."

Oh - I guess I should've been more specific and called it a "contract" (not that you'd understand something like Contract Law) or a "treaty" where each party agrees to abide by certain parameters for "consideration". And apparently, your hero, Bloodstained Bob thought the deal presented was good enough for him to sign - are you a man of your word Tak? What do Bloodstained Bob's actions say about his word of honor?

"The British, being racist that they are, did not want us to take a square inch of our stolen land. They would have preferred to have their kith and kin control all our resources and we remain their slaves."

So ALL British are racist? Would the Lancaster Agreements even have taken place if the "British" were as racist as you presume? Except for the FACT that they accepted the inevitable and negotiated an AGREEMENT with Comrade Bob in the misguided hope that the future of Zimbabwe would be brighter than it was under Ian Smith's racist regime

"That is why they inserted the 10-year moratorium during which time we were not supposed to take our stole heritage back and this is also why they agreed to compensate their kith and kin for the land itself leaving us to compensate white colonialists for improvements on the land."

ALL their "kith & kin"? Did the Lancaster Agreements EVER anticipate a ZImbabwe with NO "white" people in it, I think not..........

"We, on our party, would have preferred to get or repossess our stolen heritage in 1980."

Fact is, YOU couldn't have done it without the Lancaster Agreement! Would the "rhodies" ever have capitulated without far greater bloodshed on all sides? Remember, Ian Smith was a "party" too!

"Now after it expired we still get to be criticized by racist fools like you Julhman for daring to take back what rightfully belong to us - our stolen heritage."

Yeah, ZANU-PF and Bloodstained Bob "took back what rightfully belonged to them", and how has THAT worked out for the people of Zimbabwe?

"For your own information there is nothing like “white land” in Zimbabwe. Colonizers do not own land in our country and will NEVER do. If any white person owns or is going to own land in Zimbabwe it will be at our behest because they are simply invaders who forcibly took the land from us at gun point."

Sheer idiocy as we've all come to expect from you! As IF all white people, black people, hispanic people and asian people are all going to leave the U.S. because it was "stolen" from the indians.....

Cry me a river! Your myopic vision of an all "black" Zimbabwe is one of the most racist generalizations I have seen on these boards - come and join the rest of us in the 21st century!

The rest of your response is your usual hateful screed - the rest of the world has and is growing up beyond what your feeble capabilities can grasp. That's why everyone here in the real world despise people like you Tak, you're forever looking to the past, never to the future. You build nothing, you contribute nothing, you and those like you just want to take and take and take to restore some great historical wrong that you had no involvement in to begin with!

You're part of the problem in Zimbabwe, just like ZANU-PF, filled with racist hate, counting "points" in the historical battle of "white" versus "black" without considering the welfare of THE PEOPLE!

Ask whether today's Zimbabwean would prefer the subjugation under Ian Smith with a full belly or their current "Total Empowerment!" with an empty belly? If you asked someone in Zimbabwe today, which do you think they would choose?

You're just full of hate, and you and those like you are fighting with a 19th century mindset in the 21st century - please, come and join us in the 21st century.......

"Total Empowerment!"

Cde Ndebvu - I am quite prepared to listen to a point of view that I don't agree with. All that I ask is that the person's position is rationally and intelligently argued. However, you do a great disservice to your cause because you are a racist fool who is too stupid even to know when they are lying. There are so many points that you have put forward without a shred of truth or evidence that it simply highlights the complete lack of merit in your position. Lets have a look at a few of the more outrageous comments that you have made in this latest little diatribe of yours.

"The British, being racist that they are, did not want us to take a square inch of our stolen land. They would have preferred to have their kith and kin control all our resources and we remain their slaves."- the British, not the Soviets or the Chinese, initiated full mandatory sanctions against Smith.

"That is why they inserted the 10-year moratorium...." The parties to the Lancaster House Agreement agreed to this, including Mugabe and Joshua Nkomo. If you are are arguing that this was unilaterally imposed on the Patriotic Front then you are also arguing that the PF had no choice but to accept because they were militarily on the defensive. Think through your argument and see where it leads you.

"the “entire white minority” got the land they are holding or they were holding on to through barbaric force, extermination, slavery, genocide and through robbery.".. the black population of Zimbabwe increased from a couple of hundred thousand at the time of the settler invasion to many millions at the time of independence. How then could the whites have practiced genocide. You use the word without even knowing its meaning.

"Millions of black people of Zimbabwe were killed" - No one has ever claimed this before because it is a lie of the worst kind. Put your money where your mouth is, you idiot, prove to me that 'millions of black people of Zimbabwe were killed and I will personally pay you a million dollars; if you cannot, you pay me. I'll even accept your worthless Zim dollars.

"As for your assertion that the white farmers employed blacks; you should know that these racist, barbaric, and cruel people did not employ us but exploited and enslaved “thousands, if not millions, of "black" Zimbabweans”." there were 400 000 gainfully employed black labourers on the white controlled farms plus their families.They had paid work, schools and clinics. Mugabe took all of that away and left them with no work, no schools and halved their life expectancy.

"If it was employment that benefited Zimbabweans why did they hire labor from countries in the region like Malawi, Zambia and Mozambique? " - for the same reason that Zimbabweans are now seeking work in South Africa. The labour market is mobile and there were many many jobs in the formal sector of Rhodesia. Something that young Zimbabweans have no experience of today, thanks to the greed and thievery of Mugabe.

"Was it not to exploit the farm-slaves because they did not have any say in how they were paid, what they were paid and how much they were paid because if they complain they were immediately killed by being thrown into disused mines or arrested for terrorism and were never seen walking again? " The only mines of Zimbabwe to be filled with bodies were filled with the victims of Gukuruhundi - as has been confirmed and reported by objective and thoroughly creditable organisations. You have taken the crimes and gross human rights violations of a bloody tyrant called Mugabe and tried to ascribe them to others without even a scintila of shame.

"More than 90% of farm slaves were from the above mentioned country and Julhman tells me that these should have been given farms along side white farmers so that they become successful commercial farmers. What stupidity?" Are you seriously so imbecelic as to believe that 'more than 90% of the farm labourers were non-Zimbabwean?

"Are you aware that 99% of blacks working on commercial farms were just farm slaves who did not have formal education to the lowest level?" How dare you be so arrogant as to call a man who works for his living a slave because his education standards were not first world? They were never slaves, they were paid employees who had dignity through their labour.

"We are cleverer than that." - probably your biggest lie to date!

"And to say that white farmers were producing food for the people of Zimbabwe is to give credit where it is not due. 80% of all our food requirements came from subsistent black farmers" - simply not true. Subsistence farmers produced more maize than white farmers, but white farmers produced the bulk of the maize that was consumed in the cities and urban areas. Also white farmers produced by far the bulk of sugar, wheat, fruit and beef (that was delivered to the Cold Storage Commission).

"White farmers underutilized the vast tracks of lands they illegally possessed, and most importantly kept the land for speculative purposes. Some became absentee landlords who benefited in their countries through the land they held in Zimbabwe." - you never did answer my question to you about the 20 million hectares of arable land that has been purchased by the Chinese and Gulf States in Africa and other developing regions.Would you like to answer it now?

"The small portions of land (less than 5%) they put under cultivation were used to produce flowers and export produce like tobacco and paprika." - you ignore the wheat, sugar, citrus and beef.

"Some farms were turned into ranches and wild animals were kept for hunter-tourists who deposited money in foreign accounts and would use the Zim dollar for all their sustenance while hunting." They created the sustainable conservation areas which only today The Herald is reporting have been earning forex for the country.

"In less than 10 years Zimbabwe has successfully and legally taken back all its stolen lands and gave it to the rightful owners." - you call the collapse of the economy and the theft of a future for an entire generation of malnourished under-educated children "successful"?

"That is a success story that can NEVER be matched or achieved anywhere in the world without a revolution. President Mugabe should, therefore, be applauded for being magnanimous in victory, democratic and for being non-racial in the distribution of land in Zimbabwe." God willing it will not be repeated elsewhere and the tyrant responsible for the death of tens of thousands and misery of millions will very soon be gone forever. And when that happens, as it will,we may never hear from you again.

Julhman ... To add something to your point about the ongoing purchase and widespread occupation of large tracts of land by Asian people, their agro-businesses and gvt quangos in sub-Sahara africa. It is shocking and tjis is going to have dire consequences on our people in future. l forsee a day when the armed forces of Asia landing on our shores to defend their interests ... doing their 'Iraq' on our future generations. Mark my words and watch this space. I must admit that l have always been uncomfortable with these so called 'liberation' friends of Africa ... whether they are from the West or the East ... the naked truth is that they are an insensitive, selfish and exploitative lot, out to strip off all and carry everything back to their homes. At least the rhodies developed the countries for all though there was definitely no equal opportunities for all races. Today, there are no opportunities for all, none at all, even the offspring of the current political leaders are voting with their feet. As regards the distribution of land in Zimbabwe ... what has happened so far is akin to a national distribution of light bulbs to every one, including all those living in homes with no electricity. Why give land to some one who cannot put it to the best use for the benefit of all...why? When I drove to Kariba from Harare, the utter destruction of both faunae, plants and soil depressed me. One sees the same shameless failure of utilisation of land between Kwekwe and Harare. Whoever is responsible for allowing this to happen under their 'watch' should be made to account for this sheer terrorism to our ecological inheritance. I am told the same or worse abuse of potentially productive farm lands and the dire absence of leadership has happened through out our lovely country. Let us bring back the rhodesia of Sir Edgar Whitehead, Jasper Savanhu, Isaac Samuriwo, Aidan Mwamuka, Chad Chipunza, Roy Welensky, Hove, Mahlangu ... before the creation of the rhodesia front which led the country to a civil war. Do away with those who come armed with so called 'Aid'. Rhodesia did not live off Aid but got lots of 'Investment' instead. I was born and raised in BSAP camp where the focus was on discipline and self improvement. Today the youth are being encouraged to do with ma Deal and an 'idonda yazi bonela' approach to survival .... a euphemism for downright thievery, selfishness and ineffective leadership for a 'modern' country. I do not condemn President Mugabe for all the trouble ..as that would be like blaming the cock for all the droppings in the chickenkoop. We have all contributed ... others by action and others, like me, through inaction an laziness. No sir, yes sir, after my drive to Kariba,l am a very angry oldman. We need a new order .. not even the MDC can effect a change because the MDC contains some very 'dodgy' characters too.... The days of slogans is over. Watch this space.......

Akapfunde - you have addressed your post to Juhlman, although I suspect that this was in error as the point you raised was in respect of my previous post.

Let me say from the outset how pleasing it was to read your post and know that we are on the same page in so many respects.

I was shocked to recently learn that there are an estimated 1 million Chinese labourers currently working in Africa who have been brought in from the PRC to work on Chinese funded investments; including their recently purchased farms. One thing that Africa has in abundance is labour; it is an affront to all the people of Africa that this has been allowed to happen.

The two most important resources that will be fought over in future are food and water. You are right to be alarmed by the fact that the Gulf States and the Chinese are using their economic power to buy up vast tracts of arable land in developing countries in order to export the produce of that land back home whilst the host nations remain dependent on food aid. This latter day "Scramble for Africa'is no less morally repugnant than the first one.

Your thoughts about the opportunity lost to have taken the old Rhodesia of the 1950's and 60's and turn it into a genuinely inclusive and democratic modern state are spot on. There was a time when there was good will on all sides, when a work ethic thrived and when get the quick riches mentality of modern day Zimbawe would have been stamped out. Unfortunately, along came Smith and his myopic cronies, who stamped out that opportunity and the whites can only blame themselves for allowing that to happen.

Can the MDC put things right? I don't think so. At least not under the present leadership. It takes more to turn the country around than the personal courage of Morgan Tsvangirai and the thousands of MDC supporters and other activists who have fought to bring genuine liberty to Zimbabwe. It will take generations of visionary and genuinely democratic leadership to achieve this. However, the first step must be the removal of zanu-pf and their culture of personal enrichment at the expense of the masses.

Hey Tacky, that was the biggest load of crap I've ever read. have you paid my brother for the use of his tractor yet or was it you who murdered the Gweru Farmers? I wouldn't put it past you to do such darstedly deeds.

"They are a bad apple in our midst. That is the plain truth." Phiri - I'll accept what you say that the white farmers are universally unpopular, but why are they the bad apple in our midst?

Don't get me wrong - I know that it was the white farmers that created and supported the Rhodesian Front - a party that I detested and was very very glad to see the back of. I also know that the white farmers were naive in the extreme not to stay out of the political scene and should have been been entirely neutral between MDC and zanu-pf. However,the other side of the coin is that these farmers did not pack up and leave after independence, they feel passionately about the country and the land and they were the backbone of the economy who employed hundreds of thousands.Why then are they still universally unpopular 30 years after independence, whilst they through their lot in with the most popular party in the country (the MDC) and whilst they were the largest source of work in the rural areas? And why are they the bad apple in our midst when they have the ability to make an invaluable contribution to the future of the country if only they were able to hold only a portion of the farms they originally held?

Katz, bad apples as should be corrected are in any population group regardless of what nationality or race one maybe. There are bad apples with the “blacks” that live in Zimbabwe. That said or corrected, white Rhodesian farmers engaged in negotiation regarding “proper” land distribution for 20 years and anything meaningful came out of it. Britain, as usual made a lot of promises and at times engaged in deceptive behaviours. Nothing moved in that period, and as I have pointed out, being a liability group, Mugabe moved forward by force taking over the land. No one won the argument.

White farmers do not still understand their position in Zimbabwe. They have viewed themselves as apart and most of their “power” is derived from abroad, not within Zimbabwe. The gov’t pushes them and, white farmers make their appeal abroad. This vicious cycle has become problematic for the country as a whole. And it cannot go on forever!

Phiri - I am sorry to labour the point, but I still cannot follow your argument here. You said in regard to the white farmers "They have viewed themselves as apart.." Correct if I am wrong, but the very reason Mugabe attacked them was because these farmers so publicly aligned themselves to the MDC, and thus in opposition to Mugabe. That is hardly the actions of a group that viewed themselves as apart.

You then say "and most of their “power” is derived from abroad, not within Zimbabwe. The gov’t pushes them and, white farmers make their appeal abroad." Where else should they appeal if they are subjected to unilateral actions and by law denied any right to challenge those actions, even if, as the SADC tribunal decided, those laws are unconstitutional? After all, Zimbabwe would not be a free and independent country had not the liberation struggle made its appeal abroad.

Katz my boy, plase do not do it. Why are desperately avoiding the issue and shamelessly change the subject, namely the fact that the rhodesians refused to accept, mix or share anything with incoming ZANU/ZAPU leadership ... thats in 1980 ... long before the MDC came into being. The whites had it coming. They are still at it. Sorry. Thats the truth. Even Tsvangi realises that the whites are a liability.

Akapfunde - I don't think that in any way have I changed the subject or sought to avoid the issue. I am quite happy to debate this issue full on.

The question is are the whites of Zimbabwe a liability or an asset of the country. You already know my thoughts that the old order Rhodies reaped what they sowed when they supported the racist Rhodesian Front; but that does not mean that those whites who chose to stay in independent Zimbabwe are a liability. They are anything but; as they not only contribute skills and capital, but unlike itinerant expats who come and go, these white Zimbabweans belong to the country and are there for the long haul, through good times and bad times.

Katz ... No sir, Yes sir, you were right on spot about all Zimbabweans being full citizens and your pointing out that the 'Aid' brigade only serves to destroy our economy, self respect, self belief and our sense of being. You are a nice boy. Why don't you stop being so patronising ... why tell Zimbabweans that the white component of Zmi's population are should exist to provide technology and know-how. We do not want to be looked after. I hope the day will arrive when all Mabwes, of any colour, can be president ... can be in charge of at the top. Actually l am toying with the idea of starting a political party with a white president. Remember Dr Allen Parley who was long ztanding member of parliament for Highfield township till Smith stopped whites representing other races. God bless.

Ak, you are starting to get some respect from me from what you have said here. I feel we are starting to sing from the same hymn book.

Oh cute!. The leaders screw-up big time and then expect another government to bail them out. Both leaders are pathetic. The leaders are corrupt and /or inept and the people suffer. When will the power reside in the people? The blind shall lead the blind and both will fall into the ditch. A wonderful people suffer at the hands of disgusting leaders. Rise up people and take control of your land. Your blood will be spilled if you want freedom. Will you be satisfied with tyrants or will you resist this force and take back your country? What ever happened to healthy compromise? You will starve before your leaders do what is right. Hate is blind and Mugabe is in the dark. My heart cries for the people of Zimbabwe. You must peacefully resist your government. Shut the country down!

GREED GREED GREED these people are always trying to find ways to squeeze money out of others to line they pockets they have just globetrotted round the world scrounging and they just cant stop

What i cannot understand about these people they abuse everything in the country e.g. the mining sector, a big company e.g. the old mutual takes their time to convert from the useless currency to usd, if they were really committed they should be looking at other avenues in just of trying to milk the world . maybe selling muggas assets would be the first!!!

"Farm Compensation is Britain's Problem"

This argument is irrelevant and a distraction from the real issue. It's not about Britain or white farmers. It's about economic mismanagement and the collapse of the rule of law. The farmers turned on Mugabe in the 90's because they saw he was leading the country into dictatorship and bankruptcy. When support for the opposition grew Mugabe decided to use the land as political capital. He didn't care about the people; only power. We all know he hasn't really won an election since he started the disasterous and chaotic land reform program.

Let's stick to reality here folks. Mugabe stole Zimbabwe from his own people with malicious criminal intent. The only reason he is not dead or in prison is because nobody wants a civil war.

Noble1, this subject maybe irrelevant to you...but many Zimbabweans consider this an important subject. Speak for yourself and not everybody!

Just because Zimbabweans believe something is important to them, does not mean it actually is important to them.

So many people throughout Africa believe what is false, and deny what is true. The truth does not change, no matter how many people believe it, deny it, or even ignore it. Act in accordance with the truth, and you can accomplish anything... act in opposition to the truth, and suffering and death will be your lot.

What the people in Zimbabwe believe only affects whether they flourish or starve. It does not change the truth in any way.

Ragtime, you sound as if you are dictating what Zimbabweans should consider important. You sound very dictortorial, for somebody who is from the so-called free world of the west. But, I have to remind you that it is not for your to tell anybody what is important. Under any society people should be free to choose what they consider important.

What you are trying to say fits in far too well in what the white colonialist would claim they know what was better for the native. This sort of talk is somewhat racist in nature and outdated.

Is it outdated to grow more than enough grain to feed an entire country? Is it outdated to have access to medicine and education?

The liberties you now assume are yours by birthright, grew out of seeds that were sown by slaveholding European colonists nearly three centuries ago. Certainly those are outdated, too.

Phiri there is absolutely nothing racist about what ragtimer said about choice. In fact it is because of the poor choices made by your leaders and your ruling party that your country is in such bad shape. They chose to abandon human rights opting for brutal dictatorship murder, thefts and total destruction of a once thriving country and making refugees of millions. Yes you cannot be told what to do but if your choices and what you have done to Zimbabwe is pleasing to you as an African, do not fault ragtimer for seeing things differently. Looking at Zimbabwe just proves his point.

Krjs120,

Absolutely, Ragtimer is free to express what is important to him, but not to impose himself on the will of the majority. That is what colonialism was all about. Imposing themselves on the majority, even when told that their advise was no longer wanted. We all have our own rosy coloured glasses. Africans and Europeans see things different, hat is not new.

Krjs120,

Absolutely, Ragtimer is free to express what is important to him, but not to impose himself on the will of the majority. That is what colonialism was all about. Imposing themselves on the majority, even when told that their advise was no longer wanted. We all have our own rosy coloured glasses. Africans and Europeans see things different, hat is not new.

Phiri what imposition on the will of what people was made by ragtimer? Did you even read his/ her post? If you are going to be affective, I suggest you take the time to READ the editorials or posts before responding instead of shooting off according to what race you think that person is. Europeans and Africans think differently? Perhaps that is your problem that there because what is right is right and what is wrong is wrong no matter who. Your racial divide is your weakness.

Noble 1 very well put because anyone who lives here in Africa knows the African mindset that when something is said that is not the real issue more than likely but as you have stated that is the main problem here.

Africans and the shame issue is huge also so of course they are going to blame someone else for this even if it is their fault they will never admit that.

There are many good African people who do desire the best for their people but Mugabe among others that could mentioned only care about themselves and their own personal agenda!

Well i agree let Britian who sold Rhodesia to the ZANUpf pay for all the farms. while they are at it they can pay me back my fathers pension that they allowed Mugabe and Gono to steal. Lets go back to 1980. The election was a farce, but Britian was so hell bent on giving the wonderful country away to ZANUpf they couldnt give a shit about the legitimacy of the election. Despite being told of massive election rigging and intimidation by Mugabe they let the election results stand. They then went to train Mugabes airforce and key soldiers at Sandhurst and pilots wherever. I have a picture of Shiri at Sandhurst. They (the British)then retrained the 5th brigade after the 5th Brigade had mass murdered 20000 ndebele. Nice! So in the long run Mugabe is direct result of their active involvement in supporting genocide and mass murder, honoring him with a knighthood and the rest. so why not pay me back my thousands that Mugabe stole, pay back the whites who supported Mugabe till his true colours came out. And pay back the stolen assets of everyone involved. After all they put the thief, mass murderer, and racist Mugabe in power.

I'll go along with that.

Britain has long been in cahoots with ZANUPF, this was to SPITE the Whites who followed Ian Smith. Vindictive. But the British also have made millions out of Black Nationalisation. They have bought goods and raw materials from the corrupt regime of ZANUPF for years. Their shareholders have made millions. Why does anyone think Mugabe is still in power? Its only now that the millions have stopped that Mugabe must go. If they were being morally correct they would have arrested him and his band of terrorists along time ago. But they (Britain) have aided and abetted this monster for 29 years and more. Britain should fix Mugabe, they put him there, they helped screw up a wonderful country and made beggars out of all my fellow countrymen. They didnt abide by any of the Lancaster house agreements, they allowed Mugabe to breach every single clause without comeback. I have a policy, when you break something you fix it. (Or pay for it to be fixed.)Britain broke Zimbabwe through its useless pathetic foreign policy. Now they must fix it. Dont hold your breath. Britain is as useless as ZANUPF, just that their government ministers drive around in modern Roll Royces. I see too that they have also been helping themsleves to the taxpayers money.

Definitely, it,s Britain,s problem. They have to sought out how to resettle their racist thieving lot.

Gentlemen, so then if the British are responsible for messing up with the farms and the propping up Mugabe too, should they then be the ones responsible to take him out? Because if that be the case then they should complete the whole job of the farms and Mugabe as a whole package to allow Zimbabwe a fresh new start. I have always understood that the reason the British stopped those Lancaster House agreement installments is because they simply vanished from the central bank of Zimbabwe and Mugabe has remained silent as to where they went. To this day Mugabe is mum. Why? Because he knows what he did with them.

Just when you think Zimbabwe is a total basket case through the nonsensical strategies and orchestrations of Mugabe and his Zanu-PF, something great happens to one of her sons. Those in my country who follow events where there are brutal dictators governing other countries such as in Zimbabwe and others, It is a breath of fresh air to hear that one of Africa's sons, Mr Tsvangirai, has been awarded Spain's Cristobal Gabarron Foundation 2009 award "for lifetime achievement for his message of reconciliation and fight for democracy," beating 17 other nominees including the USA. The judges went further to say, "He is a statesman for history to remember.The whole world must lend its support to his striving for excellence and to the dignity of the people of Zimbabwe." Congratulations to Zimbabwe and to Mr Tsvangirai.

rafil let him without sin cast the first stone so do not judged for you will be judged in the same manner not by man but by God. Stop pointing your finger at anyone but the government of Zimbabwe it is full of leaders who have caused all of your problems...

Afric, the thing about pointing fingers is like this, one pointing away, three pointing back and the thumb is usually pointing upwards at God, so as one accuses then in the same way God can point back at the accuser by their own deed in the first place. When pointing in this fashion the hand becomes a gun, but if the the thumb in is a down position, the trigger of the gun has gone off and the person has brought judgement on themselves by their own actions. With the three fingers pointing back at the person is the Holy Trinity pointing back because when accusing the Holy Trinity is pointing back because of the connection between the thumb and the fingers. Rafil just brings judgement on himself.

Rafiki, So Britain destroyed the farming base in Zimbabwe, Boboon has always said that the thieving british are not welcome in Zimbabwe. So who destroyed the the farms, You and your fellow terrorists in ZanuPooFters.