Charles Cobb Jr
22 July 2002
(Page 2 of 3)
You're suggesting that this is something of a model for Africa?
I'm saying that this is a model that Africa could consider. The fact, for instance, that our airport, which [former Atlanta Mayor] Maynard Jackson built and which Black architects and contractors constructed, and which 40 percent of the concessions are owned and operated by Black entrepreneurs, generates more wealth in Atlanta, for Atlantans, than say Nigeria's oil develops for Nigerians.
How much discussion do you have with African leaders on this point? And particularly since I know you - meaning the institutional 'you', as Goodworks International - have a considerable relationship with Nigeria?
Well, we talk all the time about it. But frankly, I don't think anybody listens to us.
"Us" being who?
Goodworks or me.
I'm surprised that you say that.
When I was a freshman at Howard University, the smartest guy in the school was a Nigerian. And he used to say to me very condescendingly: 'You're a bright boy. When are you going to get civilized?'
And there is a Nigerian success tradition that is older than the African-American tradition. It is not as successful as ours but it is older. It's like Jamaicans. They have a hard time listening to us as African-Americans. They were ahead of us in their decolonization and West Indian thinkers have always been.... Well it's like Stokely [Carmichael] didn't think he had anything to learn from John Lewis. Our view is seen as somewhat neo-colonial.
The kind of view you're putting out?
Yes. Insofar as Africans are ideologues, they tend to be suspicious. Now what we have said is that the difference between neo-colonialism and what we [in Atlanta] did was that neo-colonialism was economic domination by a single economy alongside political independence. But we had eleven hundred different companies coming in here, we had French, German, English, Canadian, Finnish, Swedish, Norweigian, Swiss, Italian, Japanese, Chinese, Taiwanese, Mexican, Brazilian; we really opened the door to everybody. So what we created was free market competition. We never were subject to the domination of any one economy.
That to me is the importance of American involvement in Africa. It brings competition to the traditional colonial masters. And whenever I went to Africa as mayor of Atlanta I always tried to bring some of the Japanese, Taiwanese, Korean firms with me. I think they have a contribution to make that forces the former colonial masters to be competitive.
I'm still a little surprised at what you say, because a significant chunk of this generation of African leadership - and here I'm thinking of South Africa's Mbeki, Uganda's Museveni, Obasanjo and Wade, even, and others - are viewed here as serious men, serious, pragmatic leaders and open to ideas, men who listen.
Well they are. But I think we have an active competitive experience of integrating our [U.S.] society over the last 50 years. And we've learned a lot about how to work with stronger economic forces, and to confront the subtleties of racism. But there is a feeling that that's not relevant to them.
Why do you think that feeling exists? Africa is a continent that has suffered colonialism and in the South, especially, suffered institutional racism as well.
A couple of reasons. One is, I think that there were two groups of African_Americans. There was a group of African-Americans that sought to serve the cause of freedom and the liberation of Africa, and gave constantly in every respect. My parents always had African students in our home in the 1940s. They felt that they had been educated by American missionaries - New England missionaries - and that part of our responsibility was to educate others. So, our home was almost a boarding house for African students at no charge. I started in 1974 with Arthur Ashe bringing students to the U.S. We'd bring them in and keep them in Atlanta for a while at my house and we'd find places for them at Michigan state or Texas Southern and other colleges. We had a kind of Underground Railroad on education.
There was also a group of African-Americans who went to Africa trying to get rich quick, and who really poisoned the waters and alienated a lot of Africans. The result is that people still depend on us when they need something, but they don't depend on us for economic or political advice.
Even with the growth of what might be called a "Black" political establishment here in the United States?
Well, unfortunately, the present Black political establishment from Clinton on has not had the same involvement with Africa that you and I had. We felt a lot closer to Africa in the 1960s and 1970s. And were back and forth with our African liberation brothers all the time. Almost nobody Black in the Clinton Administration had any previous Africa experience. As good as Colin Powell is, and Condoleezza Rice, they've had very little African political experience. Now Jendayi Frazer and Cindy Curville have, and I think they are very good in the National Security Council. They are very tough-minded intellectuals because they're operating in that Republican Party environment. But they know Africa better, and have more African experience than their counterparts in the Clinton Administration.
And this leads into your experience, which stretches across three administrations: Presidents Carter, Bush and Clinton...
Well actually it started with President Nixon. I first went to Africa with George Schultz [Then Treasury Secretary. He was Secretary of State under Ronald Reagan] to a World Bank meeting in Kenya. I was in Congress and a member of the Banking Committee. In those days even though I was traveling with a Republican Secretary of the Treasury, the agenda for Africa had been established by [Congressman] Charlie Diggs (D-MI) and the Congressional Black Caucus. And the Black caucus has not had a Charlie Diggs since Bill Gray (D-PA) left.
Donald Payne of New Jersey?
Yeah. And I guess you'd have to say that the African Growth and Opportunity Act is comparable to anything we did. But I quarrel with him because I happen to like Mugabe.
I am genuinely surprised to hear you say that. Tell we why. Do you mean it in a historical sense - as an important African liberation leader?
No. I mean right now. Mugabe is the only one who is making any effort to deal with poverty in Africa. Mugabe has politicized poverty. The land issue for Mugabe is how to enfranchise the poor. My friends in Zimbabwe who are the young intellectuals and business people did not fight in the war and they really end up being 'trickle down' economists, like the economists you have in the rest of Africa. I worry more about the gap between rich and poor in Africa than I do in America because I think the gap between rich and poor is what Gaddafi exploited in Sierra Leone and Liberia. And to some extent, Rwanda and Burundi.
You don't see Mugabe as having made a fairly cynical move? He had years to take on this land issue and didn't until he came under the pressure of Tsvangirai as leader of trade unions...
No, he came under pressure from the war veterans.
But the war veterans emerge simultaneously with Mugabe's loss of the referendum that would have increased his executive power. It seemed a cynical political move looking at it from Washington.
I was one of those who talked Mugabe out of dealing with the land question originally, saying to him that I believed that you couldn't deal with governance and land reform simultaneously.
There was the experience of Kenya where the British, in dealing with governance, also appointed - actually it was Law Engineering of Atlanta that bought a British firm that was involved in the land use plan and land distribution in Kenya - and it was paid for by the British.
There was an agreement by the British to help Mugabe develop a land use plan and land reform program in 1980 but that it should not start until 1990. There were specific constitutional concessions made at Lancaster House. One of them was putting off the land reform issue for 10 years.
But some money was made available.
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