The sitting room in the uppermost floor of Synagogue Church of All Nations was nothing out of the ordinary. Its white walls formed a good background for photo frames and certificates of awards that testify to some memorable moments in the life of the landlord. Red was the colour of the floor on which rest four simple red-coloured settees. A glass table with a porcelain image of Jesus and his twelve apostles at the last supper is at the centre. Then, to the far end of the room lies a giant television set on which sits a big globe (atlas) of the world. From this centre of attraction and a set of black loud speakers, bizarre and enigmatic images confound the senses. The video clips claim many scenes - a woman healed of cancer; a paralytic brought back to life and a man, Moses, raised from the dead.

Moses, also called Baba Marole, was one of the countless foreigners that throng the shores of Nigeria to behold the powers of the man at the Synagogue : Pastor Temitope Joshua. After being given up for dead following a slump, the clips show Baba Marole bouncing back to life when Joshua came into contact with him. He is one of the thousands that claim to receive miracles in the church. From far and near, these miracle seekers come to drink from what looks like an oasis in a desert.

But to many more people across the globe, and particularly in Nigeria, scenes like these, common in the Synagogue, represent nothing but an orderly display of magical powers. There have been talks about 'Shamanism' and a little 'magic box." Now, critics go to the extreme of the bi-polar debate, drawing parallels between the activities of the man in the synagogue and the anti-Christ.

The theological disputes came to the open, late last year, when Pastor Chris Okotie of Household of God Church, Oregun, accused another clergyman, Pastor Kris Oyakhilome of Christ Embassy, of hibernating with the devil - Pastor Joshua. Not one to suffer a blow silently, Oyakhilome also accused Okotie of practising mysticism.

Many people expected an early settlement of the war of words. In fact, Mike Okiro, former Lagos Commissioner of Police, laboured hard to prevent the disputes from degenerating to anarchy. And indeed, there was a semblance of a ceasefire. However, religious wars, unlike political crises, die hard. Just when the Okotie versus Joshua and Oyakhilome war was ebbing to memory lane, another religious leader reached for the arsenal.

London-based Pastor Matthew Ashimolowo of Kingsway International Christian Centre is the new arrowhead of the Joshua debate. In a recent interview published in TheNEWS, he questioned the roots and the basis of Joshua's authority over demons and their allied forces. Ashimolowo said every man of God has a turning point or a beginning of the divine encounter. After giving examples from others who have walked the same way as Joshua, he submitted that Joshua has kept his religious history a secret.

"It is my personal conclusion, based on my observation, that Mr. T.B Joshua, in the beginning, never claimed to be part of us. Probably, because he needed credibility, he therefore began to claim to be part of us. There is no proof of his salvation. We don't know his pastor. We don't know where he was raised from. He doesn't have a testimony from where he got born again. He said he was born like that..." argued Ashimolowo.

But Joshua says those questioning his authority are ignorant. He contends that his case is that of a Biblical prophet that has no honour in his own home. To him, the healings and other works that take place in his church are eloquent testimonies to the source of his power: "Ministers and other men of God come here from all over the world. They come for spiritual regeneration and healings." He also explained that only two weeks ago, a renown minister from India, D.A.S Dhinakaran (pix), testified to the source of his (Joshua's) powers when, on visiting Synagogue, he was healed of a five-year-old paralysis. He was delighted that Dhinakaran is a man about whom other men of God like Reinhard Bonnke, Oral Roberts and T.L Osborne had testified of in the past. "So, why will a man of God like that come to the demon of Nigeria for healing?" Joshua asks.

Joshua also draws a comparism between his experience and that of Jesus. "They accused Jesus of using the power of Belzebub to cast out demons, just as they now accuse me." But he says he takes solace in the fact that his critics base their arguments on personal observations.

In this interview with Demola Adegbamigbe, Bamidele Adebayo, Idowu Ogunleye and Richard Elesho, the Synagogue Pastor contends that the things of the Spirit cannot be known through personal observation. He also speaks on why other pastors hate him, amongst other things. Excerpts.

Good afternoon Pastor. We wish to speak with you on....

Before you greet a human being like me, let us greet God by praying: 'Jesus, we thank you be cause you have called us to witness and speak about Jesus. Holy Spirit, grant us discernment so that we can refrain from speaking anything negative or critical.'

We wanted to ask, before your prayer, how you felt when you read Pastor Matthew Ashimolowo's interview in TheNEWS last week. He implied that you are not a man of God.

I think there was something in that interview that I looked at. Let me quote Pastor Ashimolowo: "It is my personal conclusion, based on my observation, that Mr. T.B Joshua, in the beginning, never claimed to be part of us. Probably, because he needed credibility, he therefore began to claim to be part of us." Can you hear that? Now, let me break this down, bit by bit.

He talked about 'observation'. There should be nothing like observation.

Rather, we should deal with truth, absolute truth. The truth, according to the Holy Bible, will set you free. It will set you free from lying, because everyone lies.

We can do like or behave like Samuel....

What did Samuel do?

He was willing to pause in the midst of life's turmoil and storm to hear from God. This is in the first book of Samuel, Chapter 3, verse 10, which says: And the Lord came and stood, and called as at other times: "Samuel, Samuel!" Then Samuel answered: "speak, speak, for thy servant heareth..."

Having distinguished between personal observation and revelation from God, we want you to react to Pastor Ashimolowo's argument that nobody knows your pastor or your spiritual background...

My brother, Pastor Ashimolowo was talking about lion oil. The Bible speaks about anointing that enables a person to take on the character of another or perform extraordinary feats. It is not an anointing with oil, but the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit comes into a person's life, He changes him. The Holy Spirit, when He works, does not employ human hands because He is divine. I am speaking of divine, referring to divine anointing performed by God himself on all who are wonderfully privileged to become his children. This is different from anointing through oil of lion.

Are you saying no pastor ordained you into priesthood?

I received divine commission of the Holy Spirit through revelation and vision of Christ. God revealed His Son in me and called me by His grace to preach His message among the Gentiles.

This has a parallel in Galatians 1:3 which says: 'But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called me by His grace, to reveal His son in me that I might preach Him among the heathen, immediately, I conferred not with flesh and blood.' Paul even added, in this passage, and I quote him verbatim for you: 'Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me, but I went into Arabia and returned again to Damascus.' That answers your question.

Do you mean one can just be born and become a man of God straight, without guidance?

Who taught John the Baptist? Tell me. OK, let me quote another passage for you. If you read Luke, one of the synoptic gospels, Chapter I, verse 15, you will find this: 'For he (John the Baptist) shall be great in the sight of the Lord and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.' It was the same John the Baptist, popularly referred to as the voice crying in the wilderness, who said in John 3:27 that 'a man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.' Before I started my work, I did not consult any man. Mine is not the first of this kind. There are other examples like Elijah and Moses.

Therefore, I am talking about divine anointing performed by God who is omniscient and omnipresent.

Is it not possible for 'personal observation', like the one expressed by Pastor Ashimolowo, to be truthful?

You read what he said. That his conclusion was based on some premises: personal observation. Observation, my dear brother, refers to science based on facts which are subject to change, and are not always the truth.

Have you not heard the general saying that where reason stops, faith takes over? Human logic is quite different from things of the Spirit.

Pastor Ashimolowo, in the interview in question, also added that probably because you needed credibility, you therefore claimed to be part of them. We want you to react to that.

Credibility. Ah! Jesus taught us by example to serve people and obey God, not because we want credibility of people. But Pastor Ashimolowo is talking of credibility, human credibility. My brother, this whole thing is an issue of credibility and personal observation.

Why do you think some Nigerian pastors criticise or hate you?

As a Christian, if you are hated or criticised, find comfort in knowing that true fulfilment comes in doing the will of God.

This is not the first or the last. The Bible says you cannot beg anybody to believe you because Jesus never begged anyone to believe him. He was called king of demons. Jesus never paid attention to criticisms, but he continued to cast out demons. Jesus never struggled to have a good reputation. He had character. If you had not called me on phone, I would never have bothered to react to Pastor Ashimolowo's criticism.

Our question is still hanging. Why do you think some Nigerian pastors hate you?

Every prophet wants to be loved and admired. But his enemies and critics will never leave his reputation untarnished or untainted.

We must, however, live above this. We should not allow what people say about us to change our personal opinion.

It is not what men say about you that matters in life. It is your belief in yourself. Jesus believed in his product and in himself. He knew quite well that his critics were ignorant.

Do these criticisms bother you?

Criticism is a tonic to my spiritual anointing.

How?

The Bible says: "if your source is of God, the greater your persecution." This means that God does not keep us away from persecution. But God sees us through. He warns of persecution. Jesus said all nations would speak evil of us because of his name. What then is the evidence of a true prophet if you are not persecuted? So, if anyone wants to take after him, he must experience the same.

Have you ever met Pastor Ashimolowo?

I don't know him. I love everyone, because love is the greatest Christian virtue and it is the real measure of spirituality.

Let us discuss the nation now. How can Nigeria avoid political violence in 2003?

Nigeria is God's own country. The people of Nigeria will be punished if they refuse to embrace righteousness. Righteousness exalts a nation.

How can the nation go about this?

The first approach is for us to start little, because everything starts little.

How old is democracy in Nigeria? Just three years. Imagine a three-year-old baby still crawling. America has been a democratic government for many years. It is not overnight. Preparation, time and perseverance led to America's dividends of democracy.

We have to look inwards. The solution is inside. Outsiders can only point the way.

We wonder why you have not been invited to Aso Rock like other pastors...

Do you need to be invited before you can pray for your country? When we accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, we have His very presence in our hearts through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is omnipresent. We pray for the nation everyday.

In the Synagogue, people shout "Emmanuel" when they see you. Some of your critics said you consider yourself as Jesus or God?

My name is T.B Joshua. Emmanuel (God is with us) is a form of greeting.

What critics said was a mere rumour. Many give their word, but you cannot rely on what they say because everyone lies. Who do we believe? You can believe only God. His promises stand. He cannot lie. Remember, Jesus is still on trial.

What does that mean? Jesus died, rose and ascended to Heaven, according to the Bible.

He is still on trial because people still malign him. You can, however, be faithful to Him through good deeds. When one makes decisions in the natural (with eyes, ears and all members of the body), one lies.

What is your position, on some preachers in Nigeria who call themselves 'God'?

We cannot help a situation by talking negatively about it. Neither can you help a situation by condemning or criticising. This shows lack of love.

Who am I to judge? If I judge now, who will judge me on the last day?

If I want to educate the people, I will tell them about the fruits that a true man of God bears and the fruits that fake prophets bear.

What are these fruits?

I will answer that question with the Epistle of Paul to the Galatians Chapter one, Verses 22 to 23: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. Against such, there is no law." That applies to true prophets of God.

For fake prophets, see the same Epistle of Paul to the Galatians, Chapter one, Verses 19-21: "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: adultery, fornication, uncleanliness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft ,hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revellings and such like, of which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." These passages answer your question, my brother. So, let us leave all judgement to God.

We still keep wondering why you are the most criticised preacher in Nigeria?

You see, in the society, public opinion about any true man of God is divided. Some people will say 'that man is good.' Then, others will say 'he is faking people.' OK, let me take you to the book of John, Chapter seven, Verse 12: "And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him.

For some said: He is a good man; others said: Nay, but he deceiveth the people."

There is this criticism against you that you perform your miracles within the Synagogue, but you don't perform them elsewhere. Why?

I have travelled to the Bahamas, Ghana and other countries for crusades, and God performed miracles through me.

No wonder that foreigners troop to our church here from different countries. The statistics are there.

We have had over 3000 pilgrims from Singapore, 5000 from the UK, 1000 from the USA, 400 from Belgium, 500 from Germany and 1500 from Holland. There have also been over 700 pilgrims from New Zealand, 950 from Canada, 500 from Australia, 500 from Greece, 450 from Japan and 500,000 from South Africa.