Lagos — Justice Wale Abiru, one of the newly sworn judges of the Ikeja High Court is a University of Ife alumnus. He was called to the Nigerian Bar in 1985. He worked with Bentley Edu & Co for 7 years, lectured at LASU for a year and was appointed judge in May 2001. He is the (Amir) President of the Movement for Islam Culture and Awareness. (An organisation of young professional muslims). FUNKE ABOYADE and JANE INYANG DISI spoke with him last week, in the wake of the recent religious disturbances which rocked parts of the country

We have observed that several judges of the High Court are Chancellors in the Anglican Diocese and we have you as the President of the Movement for Islamic Culture and Awareness. Is there anything in the orientation of judges which makes them tend towards religious involvement?

No, it is not a trend in judges, but the nature of the job is like we are doing God's work on earth. The enormity of the responsibility makes one to look up to God for his guidance and wisdom but I was involved in the Islamic movement before I became a judge. It was not being a judge that got me involved in the movement rather, it was my involvement in it and my ability that saw me being asked to come to the Bench. So it is not the work of the judge that qualifies you to be a Chancellor or Imam. It entails different criteria. You tend to become more religious when you become a judge.

But we think it is more than mere coincidence that several judges are Chancellors.

Yes, the enormity of the responsibility you have as a judge bestows public confidence in you, such that if you are given a task that is advisory or running an organisation, you will perform, but appointment as Chancellor depends on people's perception of your capability and the appointment of one as a judge makes people to view one as responsible.

As someone who occupies a very high position in an Islamic group, MICA, what will you recommend as a panacea for religious conflicts, as the country has been rocked by several, particularly, the one that arose last week? How do you suggest a Muslim voice his grievances?

The problem that we have is that there is a lot of misinformation . A lot of people depend on others to give them direction. There is need for better understanding of what the religion requires. If you are talking about what happened last week, Iike I said, and will keep on saying, the article would incite people, but the manner of reaction was what differed . A situation in which many people who reacted did not even read the article and depending on what someone told them and depending on how the person presented it, determined their reaction! So there is need for people to have a better grasp of what the issues are before they react.

Does this kind of violent reaction not give Islam a bad name, as it has been called by its adherents a religion of peace and tolerance. But you find when something like this happens, there is a resort to violence, at least here in Nigeria. Is there a way you are trying to redress this image?

What you must not lose sight of is that a lot of these violent reactions, to my mind, are political, not religious in the sense of people reacting because of Islam. What my understanding is, is that people protest because they have a leglitimate right so to do, but violence comes in because of political undertones. If you look at the last crisis, if it were basically religious, you would have had more violent reaction in states with predominant Muslim population like Zamfara and Kano. It was limited to Kaduna and Abuja. There was tension in Kano but the military contained it. There was military presence in Kaduna and Abuja, but the violence was not contained. The article started it, yes, but the embers of it were basically political. That is the way I see it.

Along the same lines, internationally, since 9/11 the western press has tended to lump terrorism and Islam as partners. How do you feel about this and do you feel there is the need to educate the world generally that Islam and terrorism are not one and the same?

You are going to another level entirely.

The understanding of terrorism and Islam is that people tend to mix up the fact that when people practise their religion the way it should be practised, it is called fundamentalist. Now, terrorism internationally the way I see it, is if you do not give an opportunity, when you close all avenues by which people can seek redress, there is the tendency for people to react when pushed to the wall.

If you look at the international press, there is the belief that after the collapse of communism, the West sees Islam as the next major threat. Islam is a civilization, it is a total religion, its governs how you dress, talk and communicate with people. It is totally at variance with western philosophy so there are two civilisations clashing and there is the tendency to run down one, for yours to move on. That is my understanding of it, so the western press tends to give Islam a bad name. 9/11 until tomorrow, there is yet to be convincing evidence that it was basically the work of Islamic terrorists. That is my understanding of it. There are a lot of theories going round as to what happened on 9/11. The western press believes what it wants to believe and promotes what it wants to promote.

Still on matters bordering on religion, the ill-fated Miss World Beauty Contest in Nigeria, several people have opined that Nigeria being a secular state, why should a certain section impose its views on others who do not share the same views?

The first mistake is that Nigeria is not a secular country. It is a misconception. Nigeria is a multi-religious country. Secularism means godlessness. The Constitution states 'We the people of Nigeria under God...'

The question still applies

I agree the question still applies. I do not believe any Christian leader has come out to support the Miss World Beauty Contest in terms of it being acceptable to the Christian faith.

But they have not come out to condemn it either

What has happened is the manner of the reaction to it has been different. While the Christians kept quiet, the Muslims chose to voice their opposition. I think the major problem with the Miss World contest was the timing of the contest, because we have Miss Nigeria, Queen Afrik, etcetera. people did not say anything.

You bring that kind of thing to the country at a time when a certain section of the population was to be in a state of religious piety and the tendency is not the contest itself but the insensitivity of the leadership to the feelings of those people without regard to the sensibilities of the people. Miss World was a catalyst to a lot of other things that have happened. If we blame the Miss World Contest for what happened, then we are suffering from myopia!

There are other things that are happening in the country that made the timing wrong. We are coming to the end of this democratic tenure. There is the problem of the second term bid of the incumbent president. People are bound to capitalise on anything to cause political disturbance. That is what we must realise. I strongly believe that if the contest had been organised early in the life of this regime at a time that was not Ramadan, I do not think the problem would have been this much.

It is not a question of whether a group of people are trying to lord it over another group. The issue is the timing of it and what the whole thing entails.

What is the role of MICA in preaching and actualising religious tolerance amongst its Muslim members?

MICA as an organisation which came about in 1994-1995 to provide an avenue for Muslim professionals and Muslims in tertiary institutions to come together to practice Islam and discuss Islam.

Our first task was to create a level of awareness and consciousness among Muslims in Lagos. We have shifted to teaching people in-depth knowledge of Islam and in so doing, there is no way that you will not talk about the etiquette of disagreement. It is a major part of Islamic education, there is no intolerance. If, as a Muslim, you tolerate everything except where you are being stopped from practising your faith, where there is something impeding the practice of your faith, there is bound to be some level of reaction or what you believe in is being derogated by people who are not Muslims. So level of clashes are so few.

We tell our members that we live in a society that is not exclusively Muslim. The Prophet (SAW) during his time lived with Jews and Christians and there was no problem so we teach them to live the way Muslims lived at that time. So, far there has been no problem. That was why during the last crisis, we were able to contain it in Lagos.

Another problem is that unlike Christianity which has an umbrella organisation (CAN), there is no umbrella organisation for Muslims. There are a lot of Muslim organisations springing up.. Movement for Islamic Affairs, Grand Council for Islamic affairs, Supreme Council for Sharia. The tendency is that when you have these bodies running at their own tangent, they can only control their members. That is the problem.

So there is no umbrella organisation for Muslims?

Speaking honestly there is none. The Supreme Council for Islamic Affairs, the government sees it as the umbrella organisation for Muslims, but in terms of enforcement, the Council does not have it. The Supreme Council cannot say this is what Muslims are doing and you have a bandwagon effect by all Muslims following it.

There is the Grand Council for Islamic Affairs in Ibadan, National Association for Muslim Youths. So when you have such things it is difficult to maintain control.

Going to the judiciary, the Lagos State Bench has had its fair share of knocks concerning corruption. When you are with your peers from other states are you able to raise your head up high?

Oh, the issue of corruption is not limited to the Lagos State judiciary. Of the four judges who were recommended for retirement based on the Eso Panel Report, two retired before the report came out, one was cleared, only one was indicted. So, nationwide, Lagos State does not have a bad reputation! The tendency is because Lagos is a place where small things are blown out of proportion, yes. Confidently, anywhere I go, the fact that you are a judge from Lagos, actually other judges look up to you because of the volume of work in Lagos. They are amazed at the way we survive in Lagos.

On the volume of work, how do you survive because you still take notes in long hand. The same problems are still there, how do judges live long really?

A touch of lady luck! At a time judges were known to retire, then die! But seriously, a lot of work has gone into trying to make the work environment better. We are praying that action follows. A lot of trial runs have been done. In my court, we tested a recording system during the vacation and we are hoping it will soon be put to use because that is the problem really writing in long hand. One gets tired. Promises have been made we hope they will be actualised.

What necessitated the creation of divisions of the court?

It is actually to impose efficiency. Hitherto, a judge did everything, criminal, civil, commercial. It was thought that if you let a judge stay in a particular division long enough to master it, ordinarily he would have had to adjourn for consideration but now he will be quicker because he does it all the time. Adjournments, are limited and rulings take a shorter period. Right now, a lot of judges are computer literate, I use my laptop to write my judgments and rulings. If I have done a ruling on a particular point and it comes up again, all I need do is cut and paste. I do not need to start writing in long hand, or research again. So it shortens trial time and in actual terms of effect, the feedback that I get is that it is working.

Recently you were moved from Lands Division to General Civil Division. Is it going to be the usual practice for judges to be moved around?

Yes, when, the divisions were created, it was said that judges would be moved around the Divisions to enable them master every aspect of the Division. In the last movement, only a few of us got moved because of the need, according to the Chief Judge, to strengthen certain divisions and the Division being a new creation there is bound to be some tinkering as we go along to get it perfect, moulding the system to perfection. We will move around periodically but everything depends on the Chief Judge.

What happens to cases when a judge is transferred to another division?

The judge takes the part-heard matters with him. The ones that have not commenced trial are left behind for the succeeding judge to take over. In the last movement, there was substitution of judges. Matters that were left in their courts remained for the new judges to take over. It does not create delays.

You were one of the many young judges appointed by Lagos State last year. Do you see this as paving the way for the appointment of even younger judges? Is it a plus or a minus?

When we use the word 'young', it creates an impression of being under aged, which is a misconception. The rules state that you are entitled to become a judge when you are ten years at the Bar, even if you are 29. Before now, judges were in their 50s and the Bench was seen as a place to go to just before retirement, but the government saw the need for the judiciary and brought in younger judges and I can assure you that the trial has been worth it.

It has been a worthwhile experience and I am sure the government has not regretted the appointments.