Lagos — Recent developments in the Oyo State Judiciary have raised concerns across the entire Nigerian Bar. The National Judicial Council has made very strong pronouncements on the lingering crisis. Now the Nigerian Bar Association, Ibadan Branch has actually demanded the arrest of the Acting Chief Judge, Justice Isaiah Olakanmi. Would you subscribe to such move?

Undoubtedly, I support the decision of the Ibadan Branch of the NBA to request for the arrest of the former Chief Judge of Oyo State. Certainly he is no longer a judge.

Based on the pronouncement of the National Judicial Council?

Not just the NJC pronouncement. That is where people are getting the whole thing wrong. The House of Assembly by the address to the Governor, when Ladoja was still the Governor and Akala was Deputy Governor, under provisions of the Constitution, had removed the gentleman. He is no longer a judicial officer!

The only reason NJC came into this matter is that NJC made it point clear that except that resolution of the House on which the Governor acted on is reversed by a court of law, he ceases to be a judicial officer. That is what the NJC said, that they won't recognise him as a judicial officer. If the Governor now comes and says a new House has revisited the matter, do they have such powers under the Constitution? They don't! The only power they have is to recommend dismissal. They don't have the power to revisit it; but unfortunately for him, there is no way a new Assembly can reverse the decision of the older one. That is what many people do not know.

You have to study and understand the rules of the various legislative houses. What the new house did was ultra vires their powers. They don't have such powers. Such a decision can only be reversed through judicial means. If there is a judicial pronouncement that says the Governor acted in error or the House did not do what they were supposed to do then the matter can be revisited. It's just like impeachment. It's only the court that can say it is wrongful and illegal.

If a court of competent jurisdiction decides that the House was wrong in recommending Olakanmi for removal, then the NJC or NBA would not interfere with it. There is nothing wrong in his coming back for as long as it is a pronouncement of court. The scenario you have just painted is very complex. As of last week Olakanmi was still sitting and adjudicating on cases before him as if nothing had happened. How would you reconcile that with what you've just said?

It is true. All he is doing is illegal. That is why we in Ibadan Branch felt that we should look at our criminal law. If anybody purports to sit as a Judge when he is not a judicial officer, it is a crime under the Oyo State Criminal Law. That is why we have called on the police to arrest the man and prosecute him! He is not a judicial officer!

He is now putting litigants and other lawyers under some stress. There is no judgment you'll get from his court that you can sustain. It would all be a nullity!

What do you have to say about lawyers who appear before him despite the NJC sanction?

It is unfortunate. A number of lawyers are also under pressure. I also don't see why they should succumb to such pressure. Even then, such lawyers are few and far between. Most lawyers don't attend that court. A few lawyers may have gone to his court prior to the NJC publication in the papers. It's the first time that kind of thing would happen. The facts of the case were being distorted. The Oyo State Government was selling lies to the public, so there was no way the NJC would not have come out to publish a paid advert in the pages of newspapers to explain their own position. The few lawyers who went there initially believed the lies of the Oyo State Government. The Oyo State Government was saying, 'It is not true. The NJC has not written to us.' But the NJC has come out to state the facts, point by point, in the newspapers. I don't expect any other lawyer to go there. The NJC has said very clearly that the man is not a judicial officer. It's like me going before somebody who is not a lawyer and say I am pleading my case. You are wasting your time! Whatever you get there would all be a nullity. You cannot enforce such a judgment.

The NJC hammer also fell on another Judge, Justice Iyabo Yerima; what would be her fate given this complex scenario?

Yerima's case is an unfortunate development. I recollect very well in one of the Judges' conferences recently, the Chief Justice of Nigeria made that point very clearly, that a number of our Governors today do not want to respect the decisions of NJC. It's an unfortunate development because the Constitution vests in the NJC, the power of discipline. There is no discretion in the powers of a Governor to refuse discipline of the Judges. Once the NJC makes a pronouncement in respect of a judicial officer, the Governor has no discretion. Its only when a Chief Judge is involved that the matter is referred to the House of Assembly. The law is very clear. In respect of Iyabo Yerima, the NJC took a decision, but the Governor refused to act. So, the NJC said, 'well, since the Governor has refused to act, we the NJC have pronounced you retired.'

But luckily for Yerima, she has gone to court. What she did was the right thing. You can challenge the NJC's decision in court and if you win then you can come back. But Yerima is no longer sitting. All she does is to go to her court, sit in her chambers and at the end of the day, she gets paid. The government can waste its funds that way.

Lawyers and watchers from outside Oyo State have expressed surprise over the lackadaisical attitude of the Attorney-General of Oyo State over this whole crisis. What is your take on this?

I just want to say that the Attorney-General, M.F. Lana, I must say that I expected more from him. I don't know what is happening to some of us in this profession now. I believe that Attorneys-General must have the courage to tell their Governors the position of the law. I want to believe that Lana has told his Governor; although my observation is that he as Attorney-General has not been talking about this matter. It has been one Mr. Oyelade who claims to be Media Assistant to the Governor who has been responding and making the challenge.

If it the AG had come out to respond to the JNC, maybe one could have taken him up. But in fairness to him we have not heard anything from him. He has a duty however to properly advise the Governor. I really don't know the circumstances in which he has found himself. If he wants to be true to himself let him be heard on record. This is because posterity will judge him. Let it be on record that this is what he said. That he advised the government accordingly. Right now, we don't know his position on this matter.

All eyes are now on the Oyo Judiciary. The observation has been made that if the crisis is not properly managed it may set a bad precedent and the Bench in other states may consequently be politicised. What is the way out of this logjam in Oyo State? It doesn't look healthy for the Judiciary that there is no sitting Chief Judge in the state.

Certainly there is no CJ in Oyo State. Your fears are well founded. If this matter is not properly handled it will create a bad precedent. If we are not careful it will whittle down the disciplinary powers of the NJC. These powers are enshrined in the Constitution. The Governors are making a mistake. At the end of the day, it is the same NJC that would approve any recommendation made by the Governors in the appointment of Judges. They have a specific role to play. The Governors must be true to their oath of office, to uphold the Constitution.

The rascality we have in Oyo State now should be condemned by everybody. The Governor must not meddle in this judicial impasse. Why must the Governors insist on a particular person as Chief Judge? What particular purpose will it serve? How many cases does the Oyo State government have in court? It is better for the government not to get enmeshed in this problem. I expect Akala to be true to his oath of office by respecting the decison of the NJC.

It is because of Akala's rascality that the NBA is now ready to give bite to the decision of the NJC. The NJC must not be made to look like a toothless bulldog. They have done their best in the circumstances. They have stooped paying the salaries on these Judges involved and they no longer recognise them as judicial officers. Olakanmi for instance who is parading himself as CJ does not leave the confines of Oyo State. He is not allowed to attend any meetings. He is not allowed to be part of the Body of Benchers. All statutory meetings that Chief Judges attend he doesn't attend. He cannot even sign Law School forms as a Bencher for law students! What else is the NJC supposed to do? So, it now behoves on the Bar to give bite to all these, so that nobody will think the NJC is only a toothless bulldog.

In the interest of our fledging democracy, Governor Akala should respect the decision of the NJC. It's just a few months to the all important NBA delegates conference where the general elections into national offices will be held. You are in the race as President. How has the race been so far? It does appear as if it might be a rather lonely race.

All I can say is that I am contesting for the position of President of the Nigerian Bar Association. Whether there are other contestants or that there might be others, it's only after nominations have closed that one can say categorically who and who is in the race. I cannot assume that I will be alone in the race; this is why I am constantly in the field. I am on my way to Uyo and Calabar to campaign. I am still running. There might be others in the race and not it's not until after nominations have closed before we can get a clear picture of who is running for President.

You are crisscrossing the entire country. How has this impacted on your practice, having to visit the 88 branches of the NBA spread across the 36 states of the federation?

It has not been very easy. But I must give praises and thanks to Almighty God for the gift of health and for the little amount of money he has provided for this campaign through friends. A number of my friends have assisted this campaign and we have been able to access funds for the entire campaign. NBA President, Olisa Agbakoba, SAN told me then that it is not possible to be in court and run NBA elections at the same time. I thought he was joking; now I know the truth! Practice for me now is almost nil. The campaign has taken its toll on that. From the way things are, you use about a year to run the campaign and another two years to be in office when you win. That is about three years out of your chambers. But I must say that I am a bit lucky because I have a partner.

I said to my partner recently, 'Chief Akin Olujinmi, I have not seen you campaigning for me.' He said 'You must be mad! I work in the chambers, so that you can have money to run the campaign. Now you want me to leave the office to go and campaign, who will be doing he work?' So the office is still being run. Undoubtedly, something will have to give, but the partnership has given me an edge and I thank God for that. Looking back at recent NBA history, it does appear that the office of President is now the exclusive preserve of Senior Advocates of Nigeria, even when the NBA constitution does not so provide. Do you subscribe to this position?

No, no, no! I don't agree with that. But let me say that the rank confers leadership on one. By attaining that rank, you are presumed to be a leader of the Bar; so, certainly if you have the rank, you are prima facie qualified to run for that office because already the profession accepts you as a leader. But this is not to say that only SANs can be President of the Bar. There are lawyers who are not Senior Advocates and who are eminently qualified to lead the Bar. The importantly thing is to articulate your position and if people see in you the qualities of a leader, you'll get it.

However, it will be a great task for someone who is not SAN to run against an SAN and win. The rank is an added advantage that nobody can rubbish.

It has come up in discussions within legal circles that any member of the Class of '78 who runs for NBA President automatically stands a chance of wining, whether his co-contestants are SAN or not. What is your take on this assumption?

No! That would not be right. The Class of '78 undoubtedly has been a shining set and I am very proud to be a member of that set. But I don't think it gives one any advantage over any other person. It's just that a number of us over the years have carved a niche for ourselves. I am a member of that class, but that is not what has made me what I am today in the NBA. I have held virtually every office at the branch and national level of the Bar. I have contributed to the Association. There are members of the Class of '78 who have not made any contribution to the NBA.

The class has produced two or more presidents of the Bar like OCJ Okocha, SAN and Olisa Agbakoba, SAN, but these people have their own individual influences. They might use that influence to support a member of the class which ultimately gives him an advantage and edge over others. That is all there is to it. The NBA in the past two years has gone through quite a lot of rejuvenation. Now, it has been re-branded, the stakes are now high. What would you be bringing into the re-branded NBA when and if you win and come into office?

There is no doubt that the Olisa Agbakoba administration has brought a lot into the NBA. Olisa has written his name in gold. But we must all recognise that fact, that no single president can complete the work in NBA. There is still a lot to be done. I believe there is still a lot to be done to uplift our members. If by the grace of God I come in as president, I would concentrate on how our members can benefit from this re-branding. The structures are already in place and we'll build on them.

Nigeria is still a fledging democracy and Olisa had his own challenges on assumption of office. He delved into the Ekiti Impeachment saga. He also delved into the Plateau State saga. He responded to them all. But there will still be more. That is why the NBA needs a leadership that has courage and who is prepared to carry the Bar along in making the Bar more appreciated in a fledging democracy. We cannot afford to have people who will compromise the interest of the Bar or compromise the rule of law. We need people that can be trusted.

What is your take on the issue of zoning, especially of the office of NBA President? Everybody seems to have accepted zoning now, although it is still unofficial.

I do not see anything wrong in the convention of having to rotate the presidency of the Bar within zones. It is not undemocratic. It is not constitutional. It is just conventional. But we are yet to know whether it's going to be obeyed. All the elections we've had, zoning has never been obeyed. In the last election, Olisa Agbakoba ran, Chris Uche ran and Funke Adekoya ran. The one before then, Bayo Ojo, Philip Umeh, J.B. Daudu and A.B Mahmoud ran. The one before then in which we had Olanipekun and which was supposed to be for the West, Segun Onakoya ran and we still had Eneh. People are coming in from other zones to run. It's not concrete yet. It's just make-believe amongst us for now. For instance, this is believed to be for the West, but we can't say yet whether someone else from another zone will come in. That is why I say let us wait first; but I believe zoning will make everyone feel a sense of belonging.

What do you have to say about the complaints by non-NEC members that they should be allowed to vote in the general elections? Some have suggested that we should go back to the old days where all lawyers registered for the conference should be allowed to vote. It won't help. The present arrangement is adequately representational. There is nothing wrong with it. If you have been part of our elections in the past and you know what we went through, you won't suggest that we go back to that. It was a rigour. It was not a pleasant experience for those of us who went through it. Delegates' conference is democratic. On the state of the Nigerian nation, we are currently witnessing a number of positive developments and mind-blowing revelations in the ongoing probes by the National Assembly. Do you have any confidence in the outcomes of these probes?

Yes. The National Assembly cannot impose sanctions. Rather, they can recommend people to be tried if found wanting. The best they can do is what they are doing now. Doing the investigations in the public glare is good for the whole exercise. All of us are seeing and hearing what is happening. At the end of the day it is left for the police or other anti-corruption agencies to take the right steps to have those found culpable prosecuted.

Certainly, it is a welcome development. After all, it is not a witch-hunt. For the first time, let people know that there are no longer sacred cows in the polity. The ICPC, EFCC and the Police should be prepared to do what is necessary.