The Observer (Kampala)
Edris Kiggundu
2 July 2008
interview
Danish Ambassador, STIG BARLYNG, has been one of the most outspoken western diplomats in Uganda. Since September 2003 when he set foot here, he has spoken against political oppression, corruption and other evils. He concedes that his style has at times rubbed government the wrong way, something he does not regret. At the end of July, he will be leaving Uganda for Ghana. He told EDRIS KIGGUNDU why he thinks he has made an impact on Uganda and what he will miss most about the country.
You are leaving Uganda after five years. What have been your impressions about the country?
First of all, Uganda is a great country. It has experienced instability since independence but irrespective of this fact, the country has put most of these things behind it. What is important to me is that when I came here five years ago, poverty was higher. Today it is around 31%, and that is a good trend. Of course one can always ask whether the distribution of the income is fair. This is a political matter and I believe it is something that is being discussed a lot in government. Ever since things started changing in 1986, there has been a constant economic growth in Uganda which is unique.
You have been one of the most outspoken diplomats against corruption in Uganda. Are you convinced that government is doing enough to address the situation?
When I came here, there was not much talk about corruption but today quite a lot of people are talking a lot about it. The government has definitely tried to establish a framework to fight corruption. When you look at the anti-corruption laws of Uganda, they are quite good. But government needs to give anti-corruption institutions more resources because there has been a tendency to under-fund them. But you can put all the legislative framework you like and even fund these instutions, the real change will have to happen in the heads of the people. Many people still do not appreciate that corruption is a bad thing. It can cause death. Let us say, if you steal money meant for drugs in hospitals, the patients will not get the drugs and some will die.
Through DANIDA, your government has extended financial help to many projects. Would you say you are satisfied with the way your funds have been used?
Usually, I think our projects are well managed but constantly we are also trying to find out if things are going on in the right way. There is a rumour going around in the public service that it is dangerous to steal Danish money. I can confirm that this rumour is true because we are very strict and we cannot accept money from Danish taxpayers to be misused. We can do anything to get back this money, including putting government on pressure to ensure that stolen money is recovered and implicated individuals punished.
Under what circumstances would the Danish government cut off aid to Uganda or any other country?
If we see consecutive misuse, mishandling of issues, including the people, then we could consider cutting off aid.
In 2005 you were a victim of state harassment when you were denied entry at the court martial in Makindye during Dr. Kizza Besigye's trial. Was this not a big issue considering that government was trying to conceal something?
When I was refused entry at Makindye, that was part of strong dialogue between me and some other people [government]. I never felt abused.
But don't you think at that time something had terribly gone wrong with the way political affairs were being managed in Uganda?
You know at that time we were following certain issues and that was when we used whatever we had to try to understand what was happening. But the simple thing for me would have been not to do anything. I chose to be a little bit active and some people criticised me for this. The thing here is that I like Uganda a lot and I get carried away on certain issues.
As you stood outside the gate at Makindye with Military Police watching over you, what was going on in your mind?
I do not know if I was really thinking about anything particular at that time. I thought that may be I was too active or outspoken on some of these issues. When one does this, then you should expect some form of reaction. I was thrown out but this has never impeded my friendship with Gen. Elly Tumwine [Chairman of Court Martial then]. We have met at several functions and talked.
Some people have argued that as diplomats you are not supposed to meddle in the affairs of a host country.
When you have a good relationship like the one that exists between Uganda and Denmark, it is good from time to time to point out where things are not going right. This is what I have been trying to do throughout my stay here. I have not kept quiet on some issues and some people in government have said that I must shut up and not meddle into the affairs of Uganda. But over all, government has been comfortable with the contribution I have made.
As a leading donor country to Uganda, would you prefer that Uganda instead trades with you as opposed to seeking aid?
I would definitely like to see Uganda much less dependent on aid. But for that to happen the economy has to grow much faster and Uganda will need to have a big production base. The problem is, Uganda still needs some assistance to establish a big base because production is still low. Uganda is not producing very high quality products that can meet EU standards. Uganda must improve on the quality of its products.
What do you think about the democratisation process in Uganda? Is it progressing the way you would like it to?
I think that it is progressing well. When I talk to MPs, both on the government side and the opposition, I see there is progress. Sometimes, as observers, we get tired of seeing some elements within the process, such as violent clashes. But this happens everywhere, even in countries like Denmark.
But here it gets more violent because government cannot give the opposition breathing space?
I think that of course the opposition in any situation will always be trying to provoke government. And government will react and sometimes not in a good way. What is going on in Uganda is that the opposition wants to send out a message to the people and the government is afraid of rioting in the streets. If a situation becomes violent, then it is the obligation of the authorities to try and calm the situation down so that order is restored.
Must this be done with excessive force?
Of course it has to be done with the appropriate use of force. Sometimes it has been done with a lot of force but one cannot take away the right of any government to try and maintain order. Most of the assemblies that happened after the 2006 elections were hijacked by looters. I just hope that in future we can have orderly assemblies without hooliganism.
Do you think the opposition has played its duty of checking government excesses?
I think that the opposition is trying all the time to check the government but it is not easy. I think that the opposition in Parliament is trying to find a way forward in consolidating the democracy in Uganda.
It will require time because multi-party has been in place for two years but it will mature. I just hope that the opposition and government will try not to engage in violent clashes.
Recently you said "whether the Juba peace agreement is signed or not, the talks have been successful." What yardstick did you use?
Everything is relative here because we are talking about a situation of stability in a region that is generally unstable. If you go from Northern Uganda into Southern Uganda and then turn towards DR Congo, you are entering one of the most unstable parts in the world. For two years since the talks began, we have not had a single LRA attack in Northern Uganda. There are no abductions or killings perpetuated by the LRA. Therefore in my view, this means that the talks have at least created an atmosphere of peace.
What are you going to miss most about Uganda?
I will be missing the dynamism. Uganda is a very dynamic place and so many things are happening all the time. I will be missing the very nice people. In Uganda people are always greeting you wherever you go. You just have to smile and you will get a good response. I will also miss the climate. I think Uganda as the best climate in the world.
Is there anything you have found irritating about Uganda or Ugandans during your stay?
Time keeping is still poor. I know this is a habit that has been acquired over time. But if you are dealing with people like the Prime Minister [Prof. Apolo Nsibambi], you have to keep time. So it is a question of adjusting. But generally, I have enjoyed my stay here.
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