5 July 2008
interview
Kampala — Rwandan President Paul Kagame took over the chairmanship of the East African Community (EAC) from President Yoweri Museveni. The hand-over coincided with the First East African Investment Conference in Kigali last week, which attracted over 700 investors. George Kalisa and Els De Temmerman had an exclusive interview with Kagame at the end of the conference.
Q: What did you expect to come out of the first East African Investment Conference?
A: It was well conducted and it brought in key players in business and investment from the whole East African region. A lot of networking was done. People learned more about Rwanda and what happens in the other East African Community (EAC) states. We can really work together for prosperity of the East Africans.
Q: In your speech you talked about the constraints of doing business in East Africa. You listed them as congested and ineffective ports, dilapidated railway lines, broken highways, chaotic border crossings and a multitude of weighbridges that encourage corruption. How do you want to address those constraints?
A: The easiest and most effective way of dealing with them is changing the mindset. The more the private sector and government leaders become conscious of these problems, the easier they can be overcome, especially when it comes to corruption. I am sure people understand the cost of corruption in business.
And I am sure that we can put in place mechanisms and measures to try and fight it. It is important that we talk about it so that people become conscious about it. And then all of us, the government side and the business side, can plan how to defeat it.
Q: The director general of the East African Development Bank, Godfrey Tumusiime, blames the poor state of infrastructure in the region on corruption. "If our meagre resources were efficiently deployed, we would have done a better job in putting in place at least basic infrastructure of reasonable quality," he wrote. What do you plan to do under your chairmanship to stamp out corruption?
A: That corruption is bad for business and bad for governance is not in dispute. It is a problem for which we do not need to go looking for donor support, but which we can address ourselves.
I don't intend to apportion blame and say that one country is more corrupt than another. This would not help. I am looking at the EAC as a whole because the problems are found in all the partner states. They may be at different levels, but they are problems that concern all of us.
Q: Do you believe the other leaders have the same commitment to fight corruption?
A: I have no doubt that other leaders are also thinking about it. How they will ensure that we all work together to resolve this problem is another matter.
In any case, I don't think there is anyone in business or government who would argue that there is no corruption or that corruption is something good to have around.
Q: You took the test and sent a researcher on a truck with export goods from Kigali to Mombasa. What were his findings and how much did he have to pay in bribes?
A: He was paying different amounts of money at different stages. But for me it is not whether you pay a $100 or 10. A bribe is a bribe. We are not discussing how to reduce the amount we pay in bribe; we are talking about eliminating altogether bribery as a form of corruption. This researcher was someone from outside who acted as a co-driver. He met over 10 roadblocks from Kigali to Katuna alone. When I got his report, I tried to figure out why our police would need 10 roadblocks over such a short distance. Somebody delays you until you think of a way of getting out fast. Even if this researcher did not meet anybody who asked for a bribe, somebody else who came behind may have paid.
Q: You called the weighbridges the most devastating, accounting for 84% of the total bribe value.
A: Why should you have 10 weighbridges between Katuna and Malaba? First of all they are expensive. Second, I don't understand the idea of weighbridges. Why should you keep weighing these trucks? And then there are the hours of waiting. Some things that happen at the border are just not necessary.
Look at the border between Rwanda and Uganda. One time I went there. People on the Ugandan side had woken up. The engines of the trucks had started running. But they could not move.
People 100 metres away, across the border, were still sleeping because Uganda is one hour ahead. It does not make sense at all. We should make sure we are more efficient. The danger is that people have become used to it. It is a way of life. Nobody seems to complain.
Q: What are you going to do about these obstacles?
A: We should reduce the number of weighbridges to maybe two per country, one at the entry and one at the exit. We should also leave the border open 24 hours a day. We might start by extending the opening times gradually, one or two hours at a time.
Q: Uganda's exports to Rwanda more than doubled in one year - from $30m in 2006 to $83m in 2007. Rwanda being a smaller country in the region, don't you fear a trade imbalance.
A: There might be an imbalance, but by not being part of the East African Community, Rwanda does not become any bigger. It remains small. The only chance to grow is actually being part of a bigger community. There are those pressures, certainly, of smaller economies feeling the weight of more powerful neighbours. The good thing of such a community is that it brings harmonisation and rationalisation.
Q: What could Rwanda export to the rest of East Africa?
A: We can export coffee, tea, but also finance, information and communication technology services. When it comes to energy, we are most likely to produce more electricity than we need out of the gas in Lake Kivu.
We are trying out new technology; converting gas into electricity. The pilot project is going to produce five megawatts. Once it has succeeded, we are investing in another 100 Megawatts immediately.
We can keep scaling it up to 800 Megawatts. We don't need all that. Even if we got 100 megawatts today, we would not need all of it, so we might be able to export 30megawatts of it. If we sent it to Uganda, it would serve Kabale and Mbarara districts.
Q: The East African Community is still an oasis of stability in a very troubled region. There is conflict in Somalia, Sudan, Congo and Zimbabwe. Even within the East African Community, the situation is not all that stable as recent events in Kenya and Burundi have shown. How are you going to assure investors that the region is safe?
A: The Kenyan problems are more or less resolved. Foreign investors who see how the issues were resolved will be encouraged. The Burundian situation has been much worse in the past. Today it is increasingly stable. And the East Africans are working together to ensure that it remains stable. So what is happening in creating stability should assure investors.
Q: You have been quite outspoken on Zimbabwe. What in your view is the solution?
A: In our statement (of the EAC summit) we said we did not think the elections Mugabe went for were going to provide a solution. They were just going to complicate the situation further.
The parties in Zimbabwe need to get together and probably move in the direction of the Kenyans. There is no winner really in that situation. I wonder if Mugabe will go and celebrate that he has won the elections and really believe it.
Q: Are you satisfied with what the Kinshasa government is doing to deal with the negative forces?
A: I am not very conversant with what it is doing about the negative forces. Let's wait and see. We have left the matter with the UN to work with Congo.
Q: Are you still worried about the Interahamwe in eastern Congo?
A: For sure we don't need them along our border. Being worried is another matter. But we have the capacity to deal with that situation if it came up. I don't think even the Congolese need the Interahamwe in Congo because they are also a threat to their populations.
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