Dayo Benson
12 July 2008
interview
Minister for Tourism, Culture and National Orientation, Mr. Adetokunbo Kayode, Senior Advocate of Nigeria (SAN), is representing Ondo State in the federal cabinet. Despite being a lawyer, a field totally unrelated to Tourism and Culture sector, the honourable minister has a full grasp of the industry, this he amply demonstrates in this interview. Perhaps, his mission at the ministry and his vision for the tourism cum culture sector has inspired in him an abiding passion to give the job his best.
He says he has succeeded in pulling the ministry away from a pariah status. And as far as he is concerned, the testy situation in Niger-Delta is not a threat to tourism business in the country. He spoke with Sunday Vanguard. Excerpts.
YOU are a lawyer, a Senior Advocate of Nigeria and Minister of Culture and Tourism, what is the relationship and how have you been coping?
I thank you very much because this question has come up quite very regularly and I think we should really be able to lay it to rest by the explanations which I should be able to proffer now. One, I think under the law, especially, now that we are under the rule of law, the minimum qualification required of every minister is to have a school certificate, and to be a member of the party and to be above thirty-five and not be a member of a secret cult and so on and so forth - the qualification for membership of House of Representatives.
There is no qualification or requirement for a minister to have a particular professional degree or professional qualification or whatever. That is one. Two, any person who has the minimum qualification can be posted to any ministry. It is a matter of presidential discretion. Secondly, it is also a matter of other considerations which may be political. So, as far as I'm concerned, any president has the right to appoint a journalist or anyone, and post him to Central Bank, we've had one in the past; or a journalist and post him to Health.
We have some of them in other African countries and they are doing well, and a political scientist and post him to Education. It has happened here in this country before. Or an accountant and post him to Works. You know, this tendency to want to post professionals to specific areas of their qualifications, (was) a limitation originally orchestrated by the military and there are attempts to now carry it over to civilian (administration) and I think we need to have a re-think.
For instance, if you look at it, and I say this with all sense of responsibility, most ministers of education who are teachers, professors or who came from the Education sector always seem to have a lot of problems coping with the ministry.
Not because they are not competent administrators in their own right, because really, a minister is an administrator and a designer and implementer of policies, but because they seem to have certain primordial instinct against them because they already have within the system, people who like them, people who hate them, and they themselves also have their own views about certain groups of people within the profession. You understand? Maybe with exception of the legal profession where there is a constitutional provision that only a lawyer who is more than ten years at the bar can be the attorney-general.
That is a special constitutional provision. Really, you can't have a non-lawyer being a legal adviser. Short of that, I don't see why a teacher cannot be made a minister of health. It's just to administer, to listen to experts, come to decision, and you don't really need to be technically competent in that area as a matter of proficiency or as a matter of professional qualification.
And again, to post a medical doctor, maybe with clear exception of Prof. Ransome Kuti of blessed memory, all other ministers of health always tended to have problems with their people because they belong to the profession.
But having said that, it is your ability as an administrator, and somebody who has two ears, who listen to both sides of the argument and now apply common sense and that basic intelligence, which God gave all of us, to now come to a reasonable decision in the best interest of the country. So, that really is what I think a minister requires and this is why making the transition, so to say, was not very difficult. Yes, I have a legal background, yes, I am a Senior Advocate of Nigeria, but what does that really mean, speaking in layman's terms?
It means that, I am somebody who should, when he has a problem, find solution to it because as a lawyer, you sit down in your chambers, in a day you may have cases and all of them from different sections of life. One may be criminal, one may be about testamentary disposition, that is, making of will, one may be about contract, one may be about chieftaincy.
And when these problems come, you take the brief, then you go and read it up. You study it and be able to give reasonable advice.
When I got to the ministry and I found that the leadership of the National Orientation Agency has had a Clean Nigerian Project they have been doing, I was very elated and I encouraged them very actively and I am looking forward to continue to work with them.
And later when I got together with the D-G of NOA and we talked about the possibility of seeing how we can do waste to wealth programmes. That is, while encouraging people to clean their environment, whatever is the product of that work, they can then get some economic advantage from it. Of course, clean environment, good and healthy environment and maybe less crime, I think somebody has linked dirty environment with crime.
That is, where an environment is clean, there is less crime, where it is dirty, crime seems to be more prevalent. You can take it that there is some correlation. Thirdly, you can't expect tourists in dirty environment but you may expect tourists in a clean environment if other things are also in place.
Fourthly, you know a clean mind is a healthy mind and I think with cleaner environment , we become better persons. And so, you can see that what I have discussed have cut across Environmental sector, Health sector and Tourism sector and so on, and that is the work of orientation.
We try to change our attitude to what we do and can cut across all fields. We are helping the Ministry of Environment, we are helping the Ministry of Health, we are helping the Ministry of Tourism and so on and so forth. Again, as I said, it is just applying the little intelligence God gave us to the issue that we have to do. So, I don't see any problem at all in being a lawyer and being in that ministry.
Actually, I think it enables us to add value because we can appreciate the main issues there as lawyers. I also apply that basic logical sense that God has been kind enough to give us and also be able to take decision that will be fair across the board, to our people and also serve the best interest of our nation.
Certainly, from what you have said, you were able to blend easily in the ministry, but I am sure there are some challenges that confronted you when you assumed leadership of that ministry. What would you say these challenges were and how were you able to surmount them?
There were two broad challenges. The first is really developmental, that is policy changes. How do we move on? First of all, how do we take the Tourism and Culture sector and remove it from a pariah status, which is what it was from a second class status?
I've been to the ministry and that is the truth, people consider the ministry as a second class ministry. And when we got to the ministry, we found out that not much was going on even though the ministers that were before us had tried their best to lift the spirit of the ministry, they did not completely succeed in doing that.
We thought, now we have a challenge to lift the spirit of the ministry, bring it up, tear away this toga of pariah or second class and bring them to the level of every ministry, whether it is Works or Health, Education or whatever. So, the first discussion I had with management, I told them, 'I am not a second class minister, neither is the minister of state.
She is a medical doctor, I am a SAN, you, from what I'm seeing here, you are not second class civil servants. So, today, we tear away from the ministry pariah status, that second class status. We are first class, we are among the best and will show this country by our activities that we are among the best'. So, that is the development challenge.
The second challenge is really an endemic challenge and it cuts across the board, it is the problem of running the ministry. The problem of management, the problem of service. You know, over time, the government has tried, really, really tried to reform the civil service, to reform the sectors, to instill some efficiency and to allow government to get some value from the recurrent expenses they make.
As at today, the cost of running the service is higher than the cost of developing Nigeria and the ratio is about 70:30. Is that acceptable? So, that is one of the great challenges and it is still one of the biggest problems in governance to face because government must really distinguish between developmental policy or developing the country and running the government. I think developing the country is more important.
How were you able to overcome them ?
The first challenge which I have enumerated I think, I should be able to say that we have gone beyond coping with them. We have actually begun to surmount them. And I think, as at today, I can say, and I'm grateful for the support I got from government, especially in the 2008 Budget and I can also say that I'm grateful for the support the leadership of the ministry, permanent secretary, the directors, especially the directors-general of our agencies, have given the honourable minister of state and myself. We have surmounted that problem.
We have lifted the spirit of that ministry to the level where all of us are happy with what we are doing. Culture, in fact, is so huge that it is unbelievable. We have taken culture away from the mentality of culture being a matter of song and dance. We are talking more about cultural revival by developing industries.
Cultural festivals
We are talking about main-streaming cultural festivals into tourism. That means that we are bringing the economy in too, while you are developing the culture. We are thinking of espousing the strength and commercial viability of our creative industries.
This year alone, we have three projects: One, a national art expo, which will bring as many creative people as possible together, espouse what they are doing and create a market for them. Secondly, we are doing the African Art Expo this year too.
And the whole idea is to bring in other African artists to Nigeria to compete more or less with our own people and create a huge market so that Nigeria becomes a commercial hub for visual art in Africa. Thirdly, we are doing the Tour the World.
We are taking the Nigerian arts and artists round the world to showcase Nigeria, showcase our creativity and showcase the strength that makes Nigeria special. Let me tell you, with all due respect and all humility, there is no amount of money you can spend to promote Nigeria's image, or to tidy up Nigeria or whatever that is beyond this.
People will say that these are people of strength in this. So, you showcase your country, you draw attention to those who are being creative. Then you also create marketing opportunities for them. So, both love of country and economy come together. They collide in a very creative manner, in a progressive, proactive and developmental manner, so that we continue to move on.
These are programmes that were cast in stone. This will be done yearly on a continuous and sustainable manner. At least, the African Expo and the National Expo, in fact, that world tour, we will be going round. It may take three years for world circle to go round but it is good for the country. That is in respect of culture.
Of course, in respect of tourism, we are giving a new impetus to it. You see, and it is very strange really, before 1999, when you talk of tourism in Nigeria, it means travelling abroad. We go to London, 'yes, we are tourists.' But we don't recognise that Nigerian tourism means people in London coming to Nigeria. Or at domestic level, people moving from Lagos to Sokoto and from Sokoto to Lagos and so on.
So, I think we have virtually re-arranged that understanding and achieved that re-orientation so that we now know that first of all, we need to promote tourism into Nigeria, and tourism within Nigeria and that has never been done as far as we know before 1999. We need to also market Nigeria as a tourism destination. That has also not been done before 1999. But between 1999 and last year October, what was being done was to lay down the groundwork, put in national tourism policy.
Then, also put together a national tourism master plan which fell to my lot to launch in October last year. And I'm grateful to God that it was successfully launched. And we are having support, in fact, the marching order from Mr. President that, 'look, take this master plan, launch it and hit the ground running.
I want immediate action.' And this shows that Mr. President's vision and the vision of former President Obasanjo who started the whole thing, are together. And this is a clear example of the continuity in the policy and government decision or government commitment to the sector. So, that's what we are doing. And in doing that, you find out that it is not a one way traffic.
There are so many aspects that have been neglected in the past. So, we have to begin to work on those different aspects. We are restructuring the executive of tourism, which is NTDC. We are restructuring the training arm. We are putting in place ICT, which is way of the world. You can't do anything without ICT and we all know that! Even now, in my village, my mother who is more than 80 years old has a cash card. Three years ago, that did not exist. That is bringing ICT into banking. So, ICT, must come in.
We have also launched e-Tourism. Then we need to start developing tourism programmes. We have launched the National School of Tourism initiative. I am grateful to the Minister of Sports, who happens to be a brother and a colleague and we are working closely together on this. We are in touch with the Minister of Transportation, talking to her in respect of the infrastructural challenges. We are talking with the Police.
We desire to create Tourism Police, which is a unit that will be working with the Tourism sector and will be given special training to handle tourists, whether within or outside Nigeria. And this is being done in line with international best practices. We are studying from Kenya, South Africa, even Gambia here. We are looking at various aspects of this thing. We are trying to target specific tourism asset development. That is, developing aspects like hotel resorts for purposes of tourism promotion.
With all due respect, I state here today that we have never, as a matter of government policy, supported or even created the opportunities for establishing tourism resort, that is government putting it as a policy for support of tourism resort and giving support to it. Now, government is ready to do this and the incentives are there.
Thank God our financial sector is very strong and they are looking for ways to even put money. So, we are creating all these opportunities and I can continue on and on like that. But what you can see is that in line with the presidential directive, we have hit the ground running and as we do this, we will continue to sensitize the private sector - how they should position themselves to take full advantage.
Infrastructural challenges
And we are also going to partner with the media to ensure that they begin to buy into this vision that tourism is possible in Nigeria, tourism is big business. Other countries are doing it, countries that have all the infrastructural challenges that we have, countries that have security challenges that we have, even worse challenges. And South Africa is classical example of countries with security and crime problems and they are still doing well in tourism sector. Zimbabwe, the same thing. So, why can't we do it?
Of course, the infrastructural challenges, again, we are in touch with the Ministry of Works, we are talking. Our vision is clear. We know what to do and we are beginning to move on. All we just need now is a little time to roll out properly and I can say that we have all the support of government on this. And our agencies are all working together. They are restructuring to make them more focused on these new areas that we are talking about.
It is very clear that this administration has a clear tourism policy. Would you say that the tourism potentials of this country are maximised? I ask this question because of the view in some quarters that tourism has the potential of earning the country huge revenue, in fact, maybe even bigger than the oil sector or maybe it could even be an alternative to the revenue from the oil sector. Do you agree with this?
I agree absolutely that the tourism sector is in position to earn to the government a huge revenue. Many countries in the world today, European countries, Asian and African countries are depending on tourism. In Africa, you can mention South Africa, The Gambia, Kenya and in North Africa, you can mention Egypt, Algeria and Morocco.
In Asia, I can mention Malaysia, Indonesia; in Europe, you can mention France, Spain, Greece. In the Carribean, of course, you know Jamaica, Trinidad and Tobago, of course, they are doing well in oil but also doing a lot of work in tourism. Yes, we are in a position to even earn higher revenue than from oil and gas.
But I do not subscribe to the sense that it should replace oil and gas because those are all part of what will make Nigeria a bigger and better country. While we maximise what we are gaining from oil and gas, we must also erect tourism as a sector that is equal to oil and gas to complement each other. Hence, some of the revenue coming from oil and gas should even be used to develop tourism now.
Like the building in Dubai, UAE, you can see what has happened there. Within ten years, they have turned to the eighth wonder of the world and all they did was to use the oil revenue to develop tourism. Right now, nobody is talking about any other thing in the UAE. They are talking about tourism.
And they have moved from market tourism whereby you entice people with easy visa to come to Dubai and they opened their gate to everybody to bring goods, now they have moved on.
Now, they are building the best hotels in the world. Now, they have moved on to property tourism, whereby they are beginning to develop estates out of ocean, you go there right from the airport. Now, they have turned to even industrial tourism whereby people actually come to reside there. And they are also into education tourism whereby they are building schools, signing agreements, that is what they call the tourist exchange.
A school in London would open a branch in Dubai, the same type of building, the same type of teachers, bring them there. And children from Asia and Africa are going there to school. They are also developing health tourism now whereby they replicate the German clinic for eye treatment or a German hospital for heart operation there, so people who don't want to go to Europe maybe because of the weather, who need to be in a dry and hot area or those who cannot afford to go to Europe can find it easier to go to Dubai and take care of their health there and they pay. They pay for the health service.
Medical treatment
For the medical treatment, you stay in the hotel, you pay, you eat there. That is what tourism is all about. The opportunity is limitless. But you know, initially, I felt so much shame that how could we, Nigerians, with all God has given us, leave this sector and we are educated. We go round the world, we see what is happening. But after I settled down in the ministry, I found that everything has its own time. A specific idea has its own time and the idea of Nigerian tourism has just come up now and so this is the time for it and we are going to do it.
You said the tourism sector is driven by private initiatives and partly state governments too, let's talk of Osun State for instance. Osun has a very popular cultural festival. What I want to ask you is this: Is your ministry partnering with the state government and private sector in promoting tourism industry in the country?
All the efforts we are making are all part of promoting tourism and how we are partnering with states. For instance, I told you that in terms of training, we asked the states to put in place something and we design for them the curricula, help them in capacity training, help them in accreditation and certification.
That is one. In terms of physical asset development, I've also mentioned that we are trying to promote a situation whereby we can take something to the states and get them to work. I think the current thinking of Nigerians is for government not be actively involved in tourism or in commerce, government is not the best businessman, but government still has an active duty, government is not going to remove its hand 100 per cent because government must provide the policy and must give its support.
Volume of government
You know, in some things, government must act as an incubator to incubate the idea from the ground and bring it to the private sector. The whole idea is that we want this thing to run efficiently. I think with time, you must begin to look at the possibility of reducing the volume of government (involvement) and the more you reduce the volume of government, the more you increase the volume of the private sector.
You know there was a time in this country government owned most of these banks and everybody was behaving like civil servants but now, government has removed its hand. So, the volume of the private sector has increased while that of government has decreased. But we have had efficiency factor.
Banks are probably more efficient now than before and that's how we intend to do it. By and by, that is what is going to happen to the critical sectors, the railways, aviation and so on. We definitely are partnering with the state governments and the private sector to do this. If I take Osun Osogbo for instance, Osun Osogbo traditionally, is a local festival. It's the Ataoja Osogbo's festival for the Osun. But the state government came into it to give support.
It still maintains that core of the esoteric, the traditional part of it still belongs to the Ataoja. But the state government is giving support for the cultural part of it. And we at the national level have now pronounced Osun Osogbo as a national festival even though it still belongs to the Ataoja himself, the Kabiyesi then and it also belongs to the state government.
We are not taking it over. It is still theirs. But we are recognising it as a national festival, and by extension, becomes an international festival really because we are now using our weight and support, with our culture and tourism partners all over the world to bring in international communities to take part in it.
And this year for instance, you see that Osun Osogbo will be bigger and better. And not only that, we are also assisting to promote the festival as a pilgrimage really for our brothers and sisters in the diaspora who still believe in the goddess of Osun and the surrounding issues. So, we are promoting it as a pilgrimage for them. We are already working on it.
We have always had this slave hood programme whereby those who were taken as slaves were coming back, they are no longer slaves in any case now, they are big men in their own rights now. They have the funding, they are coming back. Ghana is doing it, Senegal is doing it. A lot of countries are doing it.
We are keying into that and we think Osun Osogbo as a festival, is actually a veritable opportunity to develop that concept and now mainstream it into making the festival wider and bringing in tourism into it. These are ideas that we have and because of this really, this year, we are opening the Nigerian-Brazilian Cultural House in Brazil. That house was donated to Nigeria in 1998. Up till October last year, nothing was done and the house was actually taken back from us but immediately we got into the ministry and we were briefed about it, we quickly met the ambassador here in Abuja and the consulate in Lagos.
With a lot of pressure and nice words, they agreed to give it back to us and I can confirm today that the house is now back and we have started renovation there. And thereafter, we are opening up the place as our Nigerian Cultural House and it will be the fulcrum, nucleus of this new initiative to begin to encourage tourists to come to Nigeria. Not only from Brazil but from the entire region, South America and the Caribbeans, using that place as a fulcrum.
You know Nigeria - Brazil relationship is getting stronger at every level. At the highest level now, this is the time for us to do this. And we are developing the house in a way that both the tourism and the cultural, the visual arts, the museums and the arts and crafts are involved. By and by, it will become a sustainable house because things will be run strictly from the business perspective, again the private sector comes in. But definitely, there will be travel agency to bring people from that area. It will become a hub to bring people to our cultural, religious activities.
What of Argungu Fishing Festival, is it also accorded that kind of recognition?
Absolutely. You know I spent five days in Argungu this year, being the first time any federal minister did that and Argungu is also, again, a local festival which was taking place to emphasize the friendship and brotherhood between the Kebbi people and the Sultan of Sokoto.
So, it is a unity festival. It is a peace festival and government has also given its support. It was about to go down because it didn't hold last year. But this year, with the support of the state government and our support and the support of our parastatal, NTDC, and the NCAC, we were able to have a very fantastic festival. I think more than three or four million people were there. But next year, we are going to have a bigger one with a lot of support drawn from the corporate sector, the private sector. Ultimately, we want them to probably begin to take more interest, take more control of the programme without affecting the inherent traditional part of it.
Which other cultural festivals are also given priority?
We designated twelve. We started with Opobo International Boat Festival which took place in January. Then we had Argungu Fishing Festival, the Osun Oshogbo Festival, we have gone to see the Omonoba in Benin and we are hoping to work with him this year on Igue Festival. We have spoken with my brother, the governor of Lagos State, to see the possibility of doing a national Eyo Festival. Of course, there is Abuja Carnival which has been there.
We are also doing something in the east because you know as much as possible, the lawyer in me ensures we distribute these programmes round the country. There will be a National New Yam Festival in the east this year. So, it's going to be big really. FCT is doing a Yam House already preparatory for this and we hope to launch it there. This is how we are going to go round the country, developing some of these festivals.
The festival belongs to the owners and we are not propagating paganism because some Muslims and some Christians have said, 'look, minister, with all these efforts you are making, are you sure you are not bringing back paganism through the back door?' We are not doing that. Everybody knows that Nigeria is a secular country, you face your religion.
Tourism thrives in an atmosphere of peace and tranquility, not where there is violence or civil strife, crime and all that. What is government doing to address these issues?
Well, I agree absolutely that is part of the challenges for tourism all over the world, and Nigeria is not an exception.
The issue of crime and security are issues which government, in fact, if you look at the seven-point agenda, the fourth item on it is security, which includes crime and so on and so forth. So, the government knows that those are critical challenges and they are being tackled. But let me say one good thing, there is more crime in Johannesburg alone than in the whole of Nigeria.
But people flock into Johannesburg for tourism. Somebody actually said a few days ago that in Johannesburg, if you commit a crime, they are going to catch you. So, people know that the law enforcement agents are efficient. I agree. But as a tourist, I wouldn't want anybody to attack me in the first place. Whether he is caught tomorrow, it doesn't matter to me. So, I don't want to be robbed. Let's understand that.
I told you that we are establishing a tourism police, tourist group that are specially trained police force to handle security in the tourism sector. We have written to the IGP, he has responded very positively. We are at the verge of setting up a committee. We are not just thinking. We have actually started. So, this is how we are looking at the challenges. We know what the challenges are and we are not shying away from them. What we just want is that Nigeria is one of the least dangerous countries among the big countries of the world, even in Africa here.
You are more likely to be blown up as a tourist in Egypt than in Nigeria. But people flock there. Look at Israel, maybe the most dangerous country in the world, but 15,000 Nigerians went there last year for pilgrimage and may increase this year with the establishment of the commission. So, while we continue to work on making our police more efficient, establishing the tourism police, making Nigeria safe and crime-free, we must continue to promote our tourism. We must continue to think of how we can flow with the challenges as they come on.
I assure you honestly that urban areas in the entire country are safe. It's only in a few urban areas that we have crime in Nigeria and that is the truth. And that is how it is. For instance, is Lagos more dangerous than New York?
You are more likely to be raped or stabbed in Johannesburg than most countries in the world. Look at Abuja, very beautiful quiet place. Most state capitals are quiet and crime- free. And even when you want to talk of security and kidnapping and all that, it is limited to two states, maximum of two states out of thirty-seven including Abuja. If you look at that percentage, it is insignificant, honestly. And let me tell you, I go to Port Harcourt, the problem there is actually in very limited areas. If you go to Port Harcourt, you enjoy yourself there. That is the truth. So, I want the media to assist us on this. Yes, we have our challenges, there is nothing spectacular beyond what other countries have. That is one. Two, the government has identified that security is a critical issue, even in the seven-point agenda.
Reforming the Police
Now, let us set an agenda for government, let us work with the government pro-actively and make suggestions about how we can tackle these isolated security problems because I know that apart from the Niger-Delta thing, which the media are amplifying everyday; of course, while we are doing this, we are also keeping an eye on areas which are safe.
Yes, these are problems. They are internal problems but we are looking at it through the tourism police idea. The government itself is reforming the Police. And I think that also should be encouraged. Government had set up a committee and it has submitted its report and they are working on it right now to reform the Police. Reforming the Police is a continuous exercise all over the world. Even in America and all the countries we have mentioned, they are always continually reforming the Police because the society continues to be dynamic.
So, we will continue to do this and we will continue to set agenda for government. What we are considering now is to make positive input rather than waiting when something happens then we say 'oh, government didn't do enough'. We are all part of it. All of us should file ideas now, then we move on with it. But crime or no crime, countries that have higher crime rate are enjoying massive tourism traffic. We are not getting that because we have not laid down the foundation which we have began to do now and we have not done that because we have not really promoted tourism actively, which we are beginning also to do now.
There is the talk of cabinet reshuffle, are you afraid that as a minister, you may be dropped?
Well, that is the talk and all of us have heard it, but we were appointed by Mr. President and Mr. President has the power to do that. He has the prerogative at all times to do that.
What if you are asked to showcase your achievement in few sentences, what will you say you have achieved in the last one year as a minister to justify your continuing in the office?
Well, I beg to refuse to justify my continuing to stay in office because that will be very unfair to the President who appointed me. But what I will say is that I have tried to lift up both the culture and tourism sector as I said from the pariah or second class sector to first class status. It is on front burner of Nigeria economic discourse today. And I've also tried to implement structures that put in the building blocks for the future development of tourism in Nigeria.
If you are asked to go to another ministry, which would you like to go?
You know it will not be fair to say that really because it is the person that appoints you that will give you directions and directives as to what should happen. But I think everybody should be satisfied wherever they are and be there to put in their best.
Are you involved in the politics of Ondo State?
Well, you know how it is. I'm a player in Ondo State politics but I'm also very junior to many people there. And I have many leaders. What I do is to actually do my best to represent my state at federal level, which is what I'm doing now. I also do my best to support my party, state and also to support the government of that state because I very much believe in what they are doing.
Do you have a political godfather in the state?
Is that allowed under the Nigerian law? I only do what is allowed under the Nigerian law.
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