Emmanuel Aziken and Inalegwu Shuaibu
1 September 2008
interview
ALHAJI Abubakar Bawa Bwari etched his name as a political survivor and maybe a master on account of his record as the only individual that served eight straight years as a principal officer in the National Assembly between 1999 and 2007, having been the chief whip of the House of Representatives in that period.
Trained as a town planning officer at the Ahmadu Bello University, Abubakar is a son of Alhaji Bawa Bwari who was in his lifetime an acquaintance of some of the nation's past rulers including, Chief Olusegun Obasanjo, Generals, Ibrahim Babangida and Abdulsalami Abubakar.
In the course of his duties as Chief Whip, Abubakar popularly regarded as the Chief Bulalala of the House was at the centre of the several intrigues that arose in the House and sometimes having to square up to his father's associate, President Obasanjo who regarded him as a son.
In this interview he covers some of the most intriguing events that occurred in the House of Representatives in his time, the formation of the G-21 in the PDP and how his gubernatorial aspiration in Niger State was swallowed up by the intrigues of politicians. Excerpts:
What was your experience like in the legislature?
It was quite a pleasant experience. Experience that you can never get except you are lucky to be in the House. There are a lot of things that you have to be in the House for you to understand. When we went in in 1999 most of us never knew anything about legislative business and we had to start from scratch. As you know literature dealing with legislative business is really poor if one considers the number of years we have been allowed to practice democracy in our country.
So, we had this experience of trying to learn what we were really doing and to define an agenda for our own set of legislators. You are aware of the problems we had that time, there was conflict between the legislature and the executive what we called at that time as learning process.
We really had ups and downs, bitter experiences and so on and one very important thing I know that happened was the issue of the executive, especially the presidency trying to remove the leadership of the House especially the Speaker and how we resisted that and fought that.
The other (major) issue was the issue of the impeachment of the president.
We sat down and decided that the president has done a lot of impeachable offences and deserved to go. We tried but as a result of intervention by some of our former leaders in the country that impeachment process was aborted.
There were a lot of other experiences that really helped me. One was that Nigeria has a lot of potentials. Human potentials, because my interaction with the first set of members of the National Assembly between 1999 and 2003 taught me a lot about our country and I appreciated our country more.
One, it opened me up to knowing a lot of people, the behaviour and some of our people and some of the things that influences their behavour. I realized that environment is very important, your culture and your background is very important and so on.
I also realized that some of these problems we see and do not appreciate from our various local governments, (and through) my meeting with some of these members I got insight into some of these and it educated me.
We could now share experiences from Sokoto, Maiduguri, Bayelsa, Lagos, Kogi and so on. When you are at the National Assembly, you are discussing Nigeria and the way we acted gave me hope about this country and the issue of dividing this country, I realized was very difficult because when you interact, you begin to like yourselves and appreciate the various problems we have, north, south and east there are no areas without problems.
Those were the things that really helped me in trying to know this vast country Nigeria. And one very important thing too is that I made friends that today as a former member of the National Assembly, there is no local government I will go without someone receiving me.
I have friends all over the states and indeed the local government areas and as you know, members represent Local Governments. One very important thing that happened was when I went to Ibadan.
In 1999 to 2003 the House (Southwest caucus) was dominated by AD members (but) the kind of reception I received, I will for long remember it with very fond memories. I was received warmly right from the airport when I represented the Speaker at a seminar at the University of Ibadan.
You said you and your colleagues sat down and decided to impeach the president, does that mean that the impeachment motion moved by Honourable Kumaila, the ANPP leader was your idea?
We never made Nigerians believe that it was an initiative from Kumaila, but the strategy was to allow the opposition to move the motion. It was a collective responsibility. It was neither the PDP nor ANPP. We were discussing Nigeria and we looked at the state of affairs at that time. You remember there was a meeting.
We did not just go in for impeachment like that. We gave some early warnings. We tried to see if we could reconcile our differences with the president and we could not and we found that Nigeria was drifting, and we needed to do something urgently and what we needed to do was to remove the president at that time. That was what we believed and still believe that it was the right decision.
Why did you back down from the right decision?
The pressure on us at that time was too much and some of our members were already sabotaging the efforts we were making. Some of these members were co-movers of the motion but we never realized that they were using it to feather their positions, to seek favour from the government and for some economic gains.
Can you explain?
The explanation is simple. Some we realized were doing it because they wanted money. They were called and money was given to them and they started backing down. We had a lot of people that were offered money and they refused to take. So we realized that those who were co-movers of the impeachment were trading the process.
There was the case of a member who was said to have drafted the motion?
I do not want to mention names. There was a member that drafted seven impeachable offences in his hand writing but later left us and was giving information about what was going on. We were not bothered about people leaking information because these impeachable offences were not hidden and we were too open and were transparent. The only thing is that there were approaches and strategies and they were leaking our strategies to them and how to counter the impeachment.
Can I mention some names for you to confirm?
Please don't.
You said money was offered, were you offered money?
No, I was not offered money but severally I was approached and we sat down on how to go about it.
How to go about what?
Resolving the issue of the impeachment.
With the President?
Not only with the president, but some so to say, well meaning Nigerians. There was this group led by Ambassador Zakari and Ibrahim Damccida. Ambassador Zakari and Alhaji Damccida they came and met with us. There was the group from the party, the Shagari group, the Ooni and the Emir of Kano group and a lot of them.
People that it was very difficult to say no to. And these are people that are experienced and they told us that what we are doing, we are doing our job, we are doing the right thing but in the environment that people take advantage of good intentions to create havoc that it was not good for our democracy at that time and that they wouldn't want it to derail and that our action would cause that.
We believe then that it was the best thing to do but these people are more experienced, they fought for the independence of the country and there was the need to listen to them. I remember in one of the meetings, I told Anthony Enaharo how I felt deeply honoured and privileged to have come close to him and discuss Nigeria and I was touched that today somebody I read so much about and admired was now pleading with me.
But I told him that the respect I have for him was his stand on issues and that stand is what has brought him respect and that I too would one day want to be appreciated and respected like him. Some of those things we had carefully looked at them and we were not just doing them to get an individual out, but we were doing them for the love of the country and how history will remember us.
You mentioned several individuals that came to plead with you over Obasanjo, but you didn't mention the name of Vice-President, Atiku Abubakar?
But that was official. You saw him. He was asked to come to the National Assembly, he came to the National Assembly and he met with the leadership.
Did he plead with you?
Yes.
To do what?
To please reconsider our stand and we told him that we were going to look at it.
How do you respond to the allegation that he was the brain behind the impeachment?
I want to say categorically that he was never the brain behind the impeachment. He was not directly involved with us that were at the centre of it all. Honestly, I want to tell you today and take it from me that it was something we decided ourselves. Few of us, then expanded it and recruited some more members in before Nigerians got to know what we were doing. We held meetings in several places, it was a House initiative.
You remember the meeting Atiku Abubakar held with you, it was alleged that he met with principal officers and then held a private meeting with Ghali Na'Abba. Is that true?
I cannot remember him holding a private meeting with Na'Abba. What happened that day was that he met with principal officers and some other members that were involved were later called in so that they will hear the message of the Vice-President.
He didn't meet the Speaker when he allegedly excluded every other person?
I am not aware of that meeting. You know that visits like that, sometimes you seek audience with principal officers just to exchange pleasantries before the main meeting. Maybe something like that, but it was not on issue of impeachment and there is nothing he could have discussed with Speaker Ghali Naaba that I wouldn't have known. I knew everything that was going on and I was very close to Ghali and there was hardly any decision then that I didn't know about.
In trying to remove President Obasanjo, did you excuse the Vice-President from the actions and inactions of that administration?
If you look at the system especially our presidential system the Vice-President has little or nothing to do with some of the actions of the president. So we did not include him. In most parliaments, you hardly see a situation where the president and the Vice-President are impeached at the same time.
Would you have been comfortable with Atiku Abubakar as president being that he was the beneficiary of your move? Do you think he would have done better than Obasanjo as president?
At that time we were not looking at individuals but we were looking at the institutions and how we can strengthen them. Atiku or Obasanjo was not the issue. We wanted a system and a system that was concerned in the development of our nascent democracy and changing the old ways and now putting us in the modern system.
Whether Atiku or Obasanjo was not the issue and if Atiku had benefited and still behaved the same way, we would have done the same thing.
You were Chief Whip of the House of Representatives at the time when it was said that Ghana must go was a common phenomenon in the politics of the House. What role did you play in these activities?
The issue of Ghana must go were allegations and if you are specific, I would be able to answer you more. Unfortunately I do not know who brought this idea that Ghana must go. If you look at the legislature as far as we are concerned, we do not deal with money, we only deal with money that comes from the executive and they know exactly how much they gave us and there is no room for us to package Ghana must go.
It is not even reasonable for you to bribe your selves. The question is if there were Ghana must go, where were they coming from and why?
So the challenge is to you journalists to find out where this Ghana must go were coming from and who were being used to bring them and for what reasons.
There was a specific case where money was spilled on the table in the House?
That is why I said you have to be specific because I was at the centre of it all.
In that specific case, what happened?
We had a problem. The presidency wanted to remove Speaker Ghali and they knew it would not be easy unless those who were willing were given some money. We tried in our own ways to stop that group from impeaching our Speaker.
But we realized that it was too late. A lot of money had gone into their hands and they were bent on removing the Speaker. We realized that even our supporters who were with us were jittery and we were losing some of them to the other side and there was need for us to move fast.
So what we did was to meet with the President to see if there will be room for reconciliation. We met I remember on a Monday. On the Monday we went and met with the president and the sitting was on Tuesday when they were to remove the Speaker.
In 2001?
Yes. We went and sat down and so to say there was reconciliation. The president told us he was going to speak with the Vice President. It was then that we realized that it was Vice-President Atiku that was handling the project. So we came back to the residence of the then Senate President, Anyim. Mantu, other principal officers then, I remember that Governor Sheriff was then a principal officer he was there. We tried to get the Vice President but we couldn't get him.
I remember when Mantu eventually got him he said he was not going to meet with us until the next day and you know the next day the havoc would have been done. We were thinking of what to do and we realized that they were bringing money in the evening around six o'clock. So we contacted some of our supporters to be vigilant.
So when the money came in, some of them collected the money, they were giving them N500, 000 each. Some of our members, about ten of them collected the money and contacted us. If you multiply it by ten, it is about five million. We now sat down, very few of us on what to do.
The best strategy we came up with was to get this money to the floor of the House and those who collected will stand up and say that it is for the removal of the Speaker, it will discredit the whole process and it will give us strength to fight them. That was the strategy.
Before we did that we made some contacts with some embassies to tell them that this war against corruption was just hoax and we also made contacts with media organisations nationally and internationally because the threat of impeachment was real and the fact that money came for bribing those willing showed that it was not for the good of our country. So we were ready to do anything at time to defend ourselves and that was what we did in defeating the opponents who were after the removal of the leadership.
Did those people identify themselves?
Of course, Hon. Bello Yero stood up and confessed that he was given money. Honourable Josiah Gubum from Plateau stood up and said he was given money. If you realized, they were all from Plateau State and they are from the north central zone and that was the place that I was leading then and so you will realize what really happened. I was able to convince them. They were die-hard supporters of the leadership and they were willing to do that and I will remain grateful to them.
If not for your action the impeachment would have been carried out?
Yes it could have happened because they had already gotten the required number, that is according to them, they said they had the required number to remove the leadership. But I knew that it would be very difficult for them to get the number but there was the need for us to get something that will really discredit the whole process and they played into our hands. They played into our hands by giving some of our members money to remove the leadership.
Was it not surprising for you that the then Vice-President was involved in the plot to remove the Speaker?
Why? Why should it be ironical or surprising? He was working together with the president, he was the Vice-President and anything that affects the president affects him in a way. So, I wasn't surprised. It wasn't only the Vice-President, the ministers, some members of the party that time were involved.
Was that the reason you had to ban Mrs. Esther Uduehi from doing her job as presidential liaison officer to the House?
Yes, because she was not doing her job. Instead of her doing her job she was involved in gossiping and recruiting members that will involve the leadership. A lot of meetings were held in her house, we recorded some of the meetings.
You must have had a very strong intelligence network?
Yes, we were pushed to the wall and we had to do what we did. We were really pushed to the wall, the president was not allowing funds to come to the National Assembly and upon that any time he was on television he would abuse us. Remember there was a question during a live programme when he said that the House and the presidency were operating at parallel and that he has nothing to do with us and that we came to the villa to beg him, to quote him, he said "some boys came to beg me."
I said beg me for what? You have cancer and you are treating eczema and that the House is cancerous. Those statements really helped us in getting more members on our side. We were always on our toes, we were always meeting, we were always strategizing and anytime we found out that it was quiet in the presidency, we tried to bring out something so that they will make statements so that we will know exactly what their thinking is and what they are doing.
We were not just sitting. With the kind of presidency that we had that time and the quality of membership in 1999 to 2003 were weren't just sitting, we were always meeting. We had about five meeting places depending on what the issues were. Remember we had a contract with Nigeria, we designed an agenda on what we wanted to achieve from the legislature but because of the crises we could not achieve such goals at that time.
Considering that the president saw you as his boy being a close friend of his son Segun, how did you find it dealing with the president?
The president understands me very well. I am not just a friend of his son Segun who is in America, but my late father was his friend. During the impeachment he realized where I was and he told me point blank that "if your father was alive he will be here assisting me in what I am doing for the country."
I wanted to know what I had done wrong and he said what you are doing. I told him, Mr. President we have done everything to ensure good relations between the House and the presidency and that you know very well that that was why we recommended Hon. Musa Elayo to be appointed minister. Musa Elayo was a very strong member of our group and that we thought that he would be liaising between you and us and he told me that he was hardly allowed by the senior ministers to see the junior ones like Musa Elayo.
So I told him that that was the mistake that he should allow Musa to see him and that Musa would present our thinking and what we want and that he could also make whatever requests through him but that Musa has been minister and that that we have not seen any change in our relationship with you. He said well, you are my son and that I leave everything with you.
That was how I got hooked. For somebody who is the president of this country to call you his son and you knew the role you were playing... and I must confess today, we initiated the impeachment and I was one of those who really aborted the impeachment. Part of the reasons really was that we had meeting with the president and we had discussions that bothered on our country that I wouldn't want to go deeply into.
So, when Shagari and his group came, and that was the only group that we really listened to, Shagari, Gowon group influenced us to really abort the impeachment. But the relationship between the president and I at that time became very personal and cordial and as I am talking with you we still relate.
What surprised a lot of people was that the role I was playing I was always opposing almost anything that had to do with the president but we still related very well.
Anytime we meet people will say, whip is deceiving us, whip is leaking information to the president. But that is not the way the man (Obasanjo) operates. You know him, if there was anything I was telling him in secret, he will come in the open and say it. I know him and I respect him for that.
I did a lot of things that never came out that were against the presidency and I did a lot of things too against the interest of the presidency.
So, it was a role that really was based on my sense of judgment. I judged issues and if I believed on an issue whoever was promoting the issue it never bothered me. But really we related like father and son and I respected him but sometimes when it came to issues on Nigeria we sometimes looked at it differently and sometimes our interests coincide and our thinking converged but I think most times we were poles apart, but it never affected our relationship and up till today people are surprised with the president that if it was somebody else that they wouldn't take that. But he took me like that.
He is also said to be sometimes temperamental and that on Speaker Ghali Na'Abba's last day in office that he walked him out of the office. You were part of the team, what really happened?
I wasn't part of the team but I was told what happened. Ghali went to him to say goodbye but his (Obasanjo) comments were not presidential. It was not like an elder statesman, he was happy that Ghali lost election and that he won, he felt that it was like punishment from God as a result of what we did to him trying to impeach him.
You claimed Obasanjo considered you like his son?
Yes.
But it is also said that General Ibrahim Babangida considers you as a son? Is that true?
Of course yes, it is true.
What is your relationship with him?
You have said it, father and son relationship.
But he is not your father?
Is Obasanjo my father? There are a lot of people that call you their son but they are not your biological father?
Well, what is exactly your relationship with General Babangida?
Babangida is a father because he was also close to my father. My father happened to have been a man close to many people. It coincided that most of these people are leaders of this country, he related with leaders of this country. Gen. Nasko also sees me as his son, Gen. Wushishi sees me as his son, Gen. Abdulsalami sees me as his son.
It has been said that your 2007 gubernatorial aspiration in Niger State depended much on Babangida but that he refused to stick out his neck for you. Do you agree?
He did his best under the circumstances. I realized that a lot of things happened and it is true that he encouraged me to stand for governorship but a lot of things happened and a lot of mistakes were made and what happened but what is important because we human beings always want to apportion blames for our failures is that God has planned my life for me since I was born and I never knew that I would be chief whip for eight years.
All that time I didn't complain and didn't apportion blame and really never appreciated the role of some individuals. This is human. If God wanted me to be governor of Niger State I would have been governor of Niger State. I think it wasn't just time for me to be, but God wanted me to be in that race and I was in the race and I am proud I took part in the race considering the number of Nigerlites that are there. Almost three million Nigerlites and for few of us, about nine of us to come out to want to administer the State, I think it is an achievement.
So, I have no regret for contesting and I don't blame anybody for failing to make it. The consolation is that if you look at our system it is not the best that always gets it, so why are you worried. I am not bothered about what happened.
Do you find it ironical that of all of you that contested that none of you got it, but that somebody sitting in his office was called upon to take the ticket?
This is it and that is why I am saying that only God can make you what ever He wants. He is the one that gives leadership to whom He wants, when He wants where He wants it.
So what is your political relationship with former Governor Kure?
He is my political brother, I have always said it. Maybe during the primaries people here and there went to gossip and said that this is what I intended to do, he will do this, he will do that, don't trust him and it seems unfortunately, he listened to them.
And he moved against you?
I wouldn't say he moved against me because I couldn't see his hand directly moving against me but I could see and hear that this was the move and when he decided to show interest in one particular candidate, I knew that he wasn't supporting me.
When you also look at those who contested we were either friends or brothers and so on, it didn't really bother me that I wasn't supported the way I thought that I expected I would get the support.
I have said before and I repeat that God is the one that gives and take and I have no malice against Governor Kure. We still relate very well.
You were in the race and there was the belief that you would get it. What then happened?
Honestly, even me, I believed that I was going to get it. I did a lot of arithmetic before going for something. I did my arithmetic but this time I think there was system failure! (laughter).
I didn't calculate very well, but all the same I have no regret. We went into the primaries and there was crisis like never before. It has never happened in the history of Niger State.
In Niger State some few people sit down and decide who becomes governor and that is all. But on this case, I don't know. The elders just couldn't reconcile, they couldn't sit down among themselves, I don't know.
thought that they were going to adopt the same system as they have always done. Yes, zone B you are to produce the governor and who in zone B should be the governor? Who is appropriate, who will fit into the situation in the state? they will now decide you will be governor, you will be deputy governor, you will be minister, you will go into the Senate and that is how it used to be done.
If there is any blame, I will blame some of the elders for not really sitting down because there is no evidence.
You are a close political son of Gen. Babangida. Do you regard him as a positive or negative influence on the polity?
It is human. Even you, there are people that love you and there are people that hate you. For somebody of status it is natural that there will be people that love him and people that hate him. The most important thing is for you to get more of those who love you than those who hate you and I think that he has more people that love him than those who hate him.
For me, he has a positive influence on the politics of Niger State and Nigeria, that you know. You can't take that away from him.
You are a member of the G-21, what exactly is your focus now?
The G-21 is after ensuring that the right thing is done in PDP. We realized that PDP as a ruling party was not doing things according to the rules, it had no respect for even its Constitution and so on. Some of us decided that we could not allow things to continue that way because the failure of PDP was the failure of the country being the ruling party.
So, we identified those areas that needed to be corrected and fortunately for us, we tried before the convention to see if we could address this issue of consensus, adoption, imposition and all those ways they use in insisting that a particular candidate must emerge.
We tried to see if we could create a level playing ground for all candidates but because our initiative came a bit late, we couldn't arrive at where we really wanted. But then we were able to influence them (the party) in fixing a date for the convention. As I am talking to you, I am not sure that they were even ready to do a convention.
They were trying some tricks so that those in the party executive, the Ahmadu Ali group would continue but because of our singular action, we wrote a memo and that memo really shook them and a date for the convention was fixed.
If you look at it, it was rushed (but) at least we achieved that. The next thing was now that we should get the new officers and after getting the new officers we decided that the Constitution must be looked at and amended. Areas that are undemocratic should be amended.
Fortunately, Ekwueme had worked on what was (called) Ekweueme's report but which was not really given much attention by the Ahmadu Ali PDP executive. But when Chief Ogbulafor came, a Committee was set up chaired by Bello and we are all aware of some of the things adopted and they are in line with what the G-21 has been fighting for.
But what stopped G-21 from crystallizing before now, during the Obasanjo period. You were all in power then, why did you keep quiet then?
The system at that time was such that you were not even given room to make any comments. Even if you made comment they will listen and tell you, it is noted. What do you do?
Was it not that G-21 members that wanted to save their political skins? That was the reason your members didn't come out at that time?
Can you please look at the membership of G-21 and see if they are people who will be afraid of losing their positions. Is it Nnamani that will be afraid of losing his position?
Can you respond to some suggestions that the Northern elites want President Yar'Adua out of office?
The first thing you have to ask is why?
Ok. Why do you want him out?
No, what I am saying is why do you think they will want him out? Why do you think so?
It is suggested that his health is a problem and in the case of any unfortunate or unforeseen development, the north could lose the presidency?
I am not aware of people wanting him out and the issue of his health is something that has been in discussions but not only by northerners, but by all Nigerians and the president has come out to say that he is ok, that he is well and that he is human and that anybody can be sick.
Northerners should be interested in the presidency, they believe this is their turn and during a northern presidency a lot of us believe that we should give the best for our country. If they are thinking Yar'Adua cannot do it, maybe that is why they are concerned. But I believe that if he is given the best of support that he will do it. A lot of things have so happened that it really requires some extraordinary measures for us to put Nigeria back on track.
These things happened under your watch in the National Assembly?
What do you mean?
These things happened under your watch as chief whip when you should have mobilized the House to stop the rot?
What is it that we did not do? You don't realize how we fought the presidency for eighth years because of some of the things that they were doing.
(Interruption) And you gave up?
We never gave up. Remember the tenure elongation issue? Was it not around the end of the administration? So when did we give up? Even now that we are outside some of us are still there trying to ensure that the proper thing is done in our country.
So, we never gave up. It all depends on the circumstances then and some of the things that are coming out now are things that we never knew were happening because there bigger issues confronting us at that time.
You are a relatively young man and may have achieved much politically. So, what is the horizon for you now?
Honestly, thank you for saying I am young and have achieved much. When one looks at his colleagues that we grew up together, some are alive some are not alive, one should thank God. I believe that God has been kind to me and I don't know how I am going to live.
But I want to say it that I am fulfilled. But if there is any other thing that comes for me to serve my country again, I will do it graciously. I want to say that my people elected me to come to the National Assembly. A lot of things happened during my time in the National Assembly.
I have always wanted to serve my country. I am somebody who admires sports, especially football and I used to see how our boys wear our green-white-green representing our country, I used to envy them and I always looked forward to represent my country in whatever way and fortunately it came by way of the National Assembly.
I am really proud to have served in the National Assembly and during that time, I had experience of going round to see what was happening in other countries.
I think I am fulfilled. The world is just like a stage, actors come and go. I believe we played our part. There are areas maybe one would have done things differently, but because of the circumstance, the experience, the environment at that time, we couldn't do them. That we want to apologise to Nigerians.
But there are areas we feel very proud that we did very well and one only appreciates that when you go out shopping, when you go to public places, you are treated specially. Ah, Honourable you fought third term.
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