Early this year, wife of the former Secretary to the Federal Government in the Obasanjo administration, Senator Eme Ekaette, in her capacity as Chairperson of the Senate Committee on Women and Youth, proposed a bill for an act to "Prohibit and Punish Public Nudity, Sexual Intimidation and Other Related Offences in Nigeria."

Since the bill, which has passed its second reading and is now at committee level, was proposed, a plethora of criticism and support have been let loose in the media and in every available fora. The bill, many complain, undermines the fundamental human rights of citizens. It discriminates against women and gives far-reaching powers to the police, who many say, sometimes, over- reach themselves in discharging their constitutional role of policing society.

On the other hand, charitable opinion as to the intended reason for the bill are that Madam Ekaette is seeking to prevent cases of rape and sexual intimidation by making it mandatory to dress decently in public.

But there are many issues raised that beg for answers. These issues were critically analysed at the Allure Round Table.

Participants were drawn from Muslim and Christian clerics, legal profession and ordinary folks like you and I. Here, we present the first part of the dialogue.

Remi: What does the bill say?

Donald: Before a law comes into existence, it is normally passed by way of a bill which must passed through the National Assembly after the various stages of reading. If it goes to the president for his assent, it becomes a law. But be that as it may, what we are talking about is a proposed bill.

The name of the bill is The Public Nudity Bill. The bill intends to address the issue of dressing amongst citizens of this nation, although the first attempt at looking at the bill by the National Assembly was vehemently attacked because most of them are of the view that the bill is geared towards addressing the issue of morality which, of course is the function the religious bodies. That is what the bill is about.

Onyinye: The title of the bill is "A Bill for an Act to Prohibit and Punish Public Nudity, Sexual Intimidation and Other Related Offenses in NigEeria". And, I think the major objective of this bill, and from those who have spoken to Senator Ekaete one on one, is to address the issue of sexual intimidation and rape, which is getting on the increase in Nigeria. It is also an attempt to set a subjective standard to determine how people dress personally and to criminalize and penalize whoever does not comply with the content of the bill. Another issue which is very important for us to note here is that the bill also applies to young people who are above the age of 14. So, from 15 years upward, the bill applies to you.

Remi: How do you then determine indecent exposure? Does the bill define it?

Yes. The bill says that public nudity refers to any of the following: a state of nakedness in the public or open; state of indecent dressing which exposes in the public or in the open any of the following parts of the body: the breast of a female above the age of 14, the laps of a female above the age of 14, the belly or and the waist of a female above the age of 14, any part of the body from two inches below the age of 14, any part of the body of the male person above the age of 14 from the waist to the knee.

It goes on to say that any form of dressing with transparent c0lothing or cloth in the public or in the open which exposes any part of the body from 2 inches below the shoulder level down to the knee of a female person above the age of 14 years, provided that exposure of the hand, of the female person above the age of 14 shall not be construed as public nudity. Any form of dressing with a transparent cloth or clothing which exposes any part of the male person above the age of 14, from the waist to the knee in the public or open.

Remi: Well, we have the bill before us now. Pastor Amien, can you start the debate?

Pastor Ahimien: From what you have read to us, what I think people should do is to discipline their minds. If, as a man you see a naked woman and you cannot streamline your mind and focus on what you are doing, I don't think you are fit to be a man. The bill talks about people who go around half naked; we see all that every day. If you go round the streets of Lagos, you'ld see people that are half naked. I don't look at such things. That was why I said you should be able to focus your mind on what it is that you are doing and not on the person who is indecently dressed - as it were. That is what I can say for now.

Remi: I'm actually asking for interpretation of the bill...

Ndidi: It is very funny to me because, first of all, we have other issues that are more pressing to us than this. You are talking about a child from 15 and above - maybe they are talking like this because they concluded, in their minds, that the Nigerian child does not grow as well as the western child. For crying out loud, if you see a 12-year old abroad, the child is all properly developed. The bill really doesn't make sense. What is Senator Ekaete's aim of putting up this bill - which, from what I gather - is to reduce sexual harassment issues. Because from her own interpretation, it is the way people expose their bodies that creates those ideas in the minds of the men. For crying out loud, even if you are totally properly covered - I could be totally covered but fitted and defining my curves. You would get attracted wouldn't you? There are some men that you will expose whatever you want to expose to and they will be disgusted because your boobs are probably bigger than what they expect. So the most that should be done is to propose a kind of bill such that if I am harassed, I could go and make a complaint at the police station but not to say you want to hire men and women to follow people around or that when I go to my tailor I have to tell her, "Don't let my blouse be more than 2 inches deep or 2 inches wide."

Come on, we have more important things to do. The problem with Nigerians is that we like to run away from the main issue. The so-called girls that dress this way, if you look at them they do so to get attention. If things were put in place in this country: water, electricity, people are skillfully trained and more resourceful, that mentality will not be there.

I like my chest. That is not nudity. Are they going to go around, arresting people on the streets so that the police can tell you, "If you don't want to go to jail, give me this amount." By doing that, as far as I am concerned, you are trying to enrich those who are going to enforce this law.

Remi: Can you interpret that from the point of the law?

We have to look at this bill from the point of the law and what the law intended. In law, we look at a particular bill as a whole, not in part. Apart from that, we have to look at what the bill intends doing. Because, if you go by the term nudity - that means you won't put on anything including necklace. That is nudity. Blacklaw Dictionary defines nudity as unclothe, state of complete nakedness. So, if that is the intendiment of this particular bill, the bill itself is wrong. What we have now is Public Nudity Bill. In some other countries like the USA, they have indecent exposure.

Onyinye: It also mentions indecent dressing. The bill is more than just nudity; there is also sexual harassment.

Ndidi: I think they shouldn't have compounded all together. Sexual harassment is a different thing altogether.

Donald: Issues like sexual intimidation has been covered by the criminal code. What we are talking about now, is public nudity. If we go by the term public nudity or nudity, the term public means open; something that is done in the open while nudity means complete nakedness. So if that is the intendiment of this particular bill, the whole thing here is nonsense. But what I have to say about this is that in as much as we are trying to correct a wrong, it would be wrong if we use harassment or illegality to address it. If we have to know the type of dress that will amount to public nudity, we will find it very difficult to enforce it because the bill still goes further to define instances but you people will appreciate the fact here that mad people don't wear anything.

Remi: The law does not affect a mad man.

Donald: I don't agree with you because anybody can decide to be mad in order not cut by the would be law. If I discover that a policeman wants to arrest me, I will feign madness. If we go by this particular bill, we are all naked. What we should be talking about is whether the criminal code that makes provision for all these indecency is complete in content. If it is not complete, we will now bring in some legislation to fill in the gap.

But this particular one will bring more problems than it intends to solve because if you look at it properly, it is talking about morality and morality has always been left with the priests or bishops,and the church. So, if you have a problem of morality, it should be the duty of those people to address it; not the courts, although it is a settled principle that the court act as is the custodian of public morality. So, whether there is even a law or not, if a policeman arrests somebody in a state of nakedness if has the courage,and charge the person, he has defenses. So, we should be thinking about how to make this bill work if at all we want it.

Onyinye: Do you know that there is a part of this bill that says that once you are arrested, you are presumed to be guilty until otherwise proven which is the reversal of what the Nigerian constitution says. The Constitution says if you are arrested for an offence, you are presumed innocent until proven guilty. There are so many parts of it that are against the Constitution. I have read this bill several times and each time I try to commit it to reason. That way, you'd be able to say whether the bill is good for us or not. There is another aspect which I'd like us to look at.

It says the police have been given the power to enforce this bill and this is what they are expected to do: "It shall be the duty of the Nigerian Police Force to enforce the prosecution of this Act, receive complaints from the offences under this Act, investigate and prosecute such cases of offences under the Act. The police will exercise all powers conferred on the Nigerian Police under the Police Act and other enactments on the procedures for investigation and prosecution. Pursuant to the provision of this Act, every prosecution for offences under the Act or any other enactment prohibiting and punishing public nudity or sexual intimidation shall be deemed to been done with the fear of the Attorney General." I'ld like us to note that.

Then if one is arrested, this is what will happen. "When an offence of public nudity is committed or is suspected to be committed by a female person, the arrest for such an offence shall be effected by a female police officer. In cases of violent resistance of arrest by a suspect, a superior police officer not below the rank of assistant superitendent of police may authorize the arrest of a female person by a male police officer." What this is saying is that if you are arrested, the police is given the power of the attorney general.

The police can do what the attorney general is supposed to do. My position is that it is an extreme power and it talks about the female so much that I feel it is an attack on the woman. Then again, if a female officer is to effect the arrest, how many women do we have in the police force to carry out this assignment?

Toyin: The issue of nudity has to be addressed first, before we talk about the law. Because, the law is about managing the problem. And there could be a lot of crises in the management of the problem. I wonder if we all agree that nudity is a problem. If it were not a problem, we would not have anything to manage. From an Islamic point of view, sometimes it is an offence, sometimes it abominable. It depends on the situation one finds oneself. But specifically, Islam looks at society from the point of protection from all harassment and all abuse.

Sex is a legal instinct that must be satisfied but it has to be moderated properly so that it will not be abused. And in an attempt not to abuse the concern of Islam, nudity is so pronounced such that a man and a woman are governed by rules and ethics; how they should comport themselves in terms of dressing, and in terms of the way they manage themselves with people. That is why you see female/male segregation. Sometimes, segregation may not be necessary because it is not really segregation that is a crime. As we are here now, there is nothing wrong in discussing issues where you have male and female in attendance. But when it comes to the point where one wants to express himself thoroughly and not want to cover up your self properly, then, there is a problem.

For example, in gymnastic activities, there is a special provision for female and special provision for male; such that they would not have cause to have abuse of nudity which, I believe talks about exposure of persons and ornaments that are engrained in every human being. Man also has his own nudity. Islam, as far as I know, is so concerned that you must protect each person as a human being because people think that it is only females that are talked about in Islam. No. Society must have attention for male and female when it comes to interaction and with a view that sex should not be instigated unnecessarily and should not be abused unnecessarily. On that note, there is a provision that a woman should cover herself properly in Islam.

Remi: Do we have a nudity problem?

Oghomwen: Is the problem a nudity problem or indecency problem? Because Barrister Donald has given us the definition of nudity from the dictionary and nudity is defined as wearing nothing. And, we see nude people on the streets of Lagos but those ones are mad. We don't see usually people in their correct senses nude. We do see people in their correct senses who wear clothes that we do not, perhaps, agree with; which we would term indecent. So I need further insight to clarify.

Salahudeen: I think, essentially, the problem of nudity - even in the North - is the abuse of nudity and perhaps, when we locate nudity in the social contrast, I want us to look at this instance. You are with your wife having an interaction. At a point you get nude for close contact. That does not necessitate any offence but when you now open up and say you want people to see how you have fun with your wife, in public glare, then it becomes a problem. When you talk about indecency, you are talking about the mismanagement or the misuse of nudity of ourselves because a lot of people are nude in their homes, in their rooms. Nobody talks about it because it is their homes but when it comes out - because a lot of people come out with their instincts. I can't even imagine looking at the nipples of a woman outside my home but in my house, my wife can go whichever way she wants. So, indecency is evil and I think that is what the society is concerned about.

Remi: Let's now look at indecent exposure instead of nudity.

Vivien: Shouldn't Senator Ekaete have gone to the dictionary to find out what this means?

Remi: Well, they put indecent exposure in brackets. I'ld like to ask, do we have a problem of indecent exposure in our society?

Jemi: I'd like to start by saying that in spite of what many of us may feel about this bill, there is no doubt in my mind that the senator has good intentions. But what she has packaged as a bill will not address the issues that she is fighting to address. For some time now, there has been an outcry to that effect.

Some of us have written stories on this issue of indecency. People just throw caution to the wind. We copy everything we see and the married women are not excluded. The religious groups have risen against it. So, there is no doubt that something is wrong with the way we dress. But, if we are going to address it, do we have to wait for a bill or for us to have fashion police who will be arresting people on the streets? Some of these issues can be handled at the home front. People dress up in their homes and step out into the streets. If you are not properly put together, you don't need the police to come and tell you. You should know. So, I'm saying there is problem of indecent dressing.

Ndidi: I do agree that there is a problem but where I have an issue, I'm glad we have fashion reporters here, if you look at our fashion magazines - which these women buy everyday - you'ld see them showing pictures of women that are dressed that way. And, we can tell indecent dressing when we see one. We agree that the word "nudity" used in this bill is wrong, going by the dictionary meaning. You will all agree with me that in the past three years, dressing in Nigeria has changed. It's a bit better; a bit better in the sense that people now put themselves together a bit more because they know the journalists are out there - the paparazzo and all of that.

Remi: We should also bear in mind that one man's meat is another man's poison. What is indecent for you might not be for me. If I choose to show my boobs, you do not like it but I like it. Is that a crime? Should it be a crime?

Ndidi: Yes. It boils down to one thing; the likelihood of being harassed is there. The truth is, let's be real. Yes, it might be that one man's indecency might not be for the other but, we all know when you surpass your limit. We can all use this particular actress, what is her name? Cossy Orjiakor.

Morenike: I like what this other lady said the other time that Cossy has never been raped.

Ndidi: We do not have to wait until it gets to that limit. For crying out loud, our children pick up these papers to read. The truth is, it can lead to it.

Morenike: Then, until it leads to it and the person that does that is now a criminal and will be apprehended by the police...

Ndidi: Assuming, you ran into a police station, you are looking for whatever, and you complain that you were just raped. The police officer will tell you that you do not have a case.

Remi: Ladies and gentlemen, we are going out of context. We are looking at what constitutes indecent exposure and asking ourselves, is it a crime?

Morenike: That is what we are talking about.

Remi: Let's not bring in the issue of rape. Rape is a matter of your mind.

Pastor Ahimien: But one thing leads to it... One thing we should know is that the way you dress reflects your attitude to people who are seeing you. You are sending a message; that is what you should know. When you dress and expose your boobs or whatever you guys call it, you are sending a message to the opposite sex that "This is who I am". In order words, you are trying to express your value from your body. One should know that when we expose your body, you are playing with people's emotion. We have five sense organs; four of these are expressed through emotions. That is why you see people go after women who expose their body.

Remi: But, we have seen cases of women that cover themselves but men still go after.

Pastor Ahimien: That is where your mind-set has to come in. Here, you programme and position your mind. It depends on self-discipline, whether you are a Christian or a Muslim. When you say to your self, "I can't do this thing" and you stick to it, that is self-discipline.

We cannot define indecent exposure because we are different people, and we are having different culture. In the Fulani culture, it is normal for them to expose their belly. You can even see even part of their breast from the clothes that they wear. They are Nigerians and it does not cause rape in that community. It's not an offence for them to dress that way. Indecent dressing is strictly a moral issue and I think I will agree with Jemi about family values. I teach my children how to take proper decisions. I do not tell them what to wear. The way you train your children, when they grow, they should have the right judgment to put on what is decent because they know where they are coming from. We should rather talk about addressing this issue by looking into our family values and allowing the children to take correct decisions wherever they are. How you have trained a child is what will produce the results you see.

If you put in the right values, that is what you will get because they know what is right and what is wrong.

Salahudeen: Indecent exposure and dressing to me are the same because everybody knows the meaning of decency. What is decent is decent and what is indecent is indecent. I think society should appreciate what is decent and in social contrast, conclude on certain things. Shina Peters was running an album and the government banned it; that it was too immoral which means at a time, society will have to dictate certain things. It is not only the family; it is not only the mindset.

What about the social agents because they also build our children. People should dress properly. It amazes me that it is even the females that expose very 'attractive' parts of their body because they have the most attractive parts in their body and men cover so much. They wear singlet, shirts; they put on their suits whereas their body is not very attractive like that of women. We are concerned because each time we look at you, we are happy. We do not want you to instigate us.

Vivien: I will like to look at the point that was made that people are raped because of the way they dress, I will say that it is not true. A man was arrested last year and what was his crime? Raping little children. My question is "Is it that those little children were indecently dressed?" Therefore, to say that a man raped a woman because the woman was indecently dressed is not agreeable. It all has to do with the mind. Having covered fashion for more than ten years, I know we have day and night clothes. If at a night function, a woman exposes a bit or part of her body, it is not a crime. The night clothes say you are allowed to show some part of your body. Nigeria is a hot society and you cannot expect a woman to be fully covered all the time.

The way I am dressed now, will you say I am indecently dressed? If yes, that means we all here will go to jail with life imprisonment. You have to wear things that conforms with the society you are in and with your personality. Cossy, the lady in question here is an actress. All well and good. She can afford to show every part of her body if she wants and we all know she has done that in the past. For her, her trademark is her boobs. God knows how she got that. I think everything boils down to morals. What might be indecent to you might not be to me. Some women cannot afford to show their chest but I like to show my chest.

Jemi: We, as individuals, know what is decent. If you were sitting in front of me with your boobs popping out from where it is suppose to be, I would not be comfortable because that is not what I am used to. I would not be at ease. The truth is that, within you, you know when you go over board and people who do these things, deliberately do them. I was talking to a designer friend and she told me that there are things that she does not sew. She said that people go to her and bring a style like the small 'V' and they insist that the 'V' should be cut farther off its decent point and she says to them at that point that she doesn't think she can sew it.

What I am saying is that these people go out with a mission and it will take a lot of discipline for someone to say that they are not going to look or pay attention. Like pastor said, our senses are at alert; it registers and the emotions are fired up. However, if it is a question of two inches down and you want to arrest someone, it is ridiculous.

Morenike: Decency is what you do and not what you wear which is even in the Bible. In countries that have progressed, they like diversity and for our country to progress we must have diversity - social and cultural. Our cultures are different; even in our homes. Because, the way you do things in your home is different from the way I do things in my home and it is acceptable in our different homes. You cannot tell me it is not acceptable in my home as long as it does not affect somebody else.

The countries that have developed have learnt to respect other people's decisions as long as they are not affecting somebody else's life or own decision. People insist that the way somebody is dressed pushes them to behave differently from how they will regularly behave. I don't agree with that. I think that is just an excuse.

You can not tell me that someone went to steal something because he saw the door of someone open. Will the law accept that as my defence? No is the answer. So, why will the law accept the fact that someone is badly dressed and is raped and the rapist says the way she was dressed made him to do what he did?

Pastor Ahimien: But you need to understand that you are sending a message and let me correct something. I did not say that when you expose your body, it causes rape. But I said it might influence that person to do the negative aspect of it.

Vivien: What then influenced the man that was raping young girls?

Pastor Ahimien: That is what I said earlier on. You have to discipline yourself; your mind must be disciplined.

Morenike: When you tell somebody if you don't sleep with me, I would not give you a job; that is indecent because you are doing something that affects somebody negatively. That is the way I see it.

Remi: Okay, Oghowen, let's get your opinion.

Oghowen: I will agree with Morenike and Vivien that rape is not about how you are dressed. Rape is never about the victim. Rape is about the criminal. The person who rapes someone is a criminal. The victim can never, should never be called the criminal. What does my dressing have to do with your decision to rape me? That is what I don't subscribe to. I will like to ask, in cases were women had raped men, can we define what type of indecent clothes those men were wearing that caused the women to rape them?

Remi: Can a man ever be raped?

General laughter

Oghowen: Yes, they can and they have been. This issue on indecent dressing to me is a moral issue. Yes, it's true that some women go about exposing their breasts and all that, but the issue to me is that, if we raise our children in a healthy manner, I don't think that will be happening. An unhealthy mind can bring about low self-esteem which, we know ,in most cases cause young ladies to dress somehow.

There are other psychological issues that are involved here, which make young ladies to dress in that manner. My point is that, we should also look at other issues such as the psychological, emotional and other aspects that make some of our ladies dress indecently.

Barr. Donald: The general rule under our criminal law is that an act does not constitute an offence unless the mind consents; that justifies what ever you people are saying. Because, burden of proof is on the police to prove the intention in court. So, if you are talking about rape as it relates to indecency, automatically, some other facts may come in,but unfortunately the bill makes the offences under it strict..

I remember sometime last year, a seventy-year old man was convicted for raping a two-year old baby at Agege Magistrate Court. So what the law is saying is that an act does not constitute an offence unless the mind consents. But as it relates to indecent exposure, I have two or three definitions from different jurisdictions. The first one says, "Indecent exposure is the deliberate exposure by a man or persons of a portion or portions of his or her own body under circumstances where such an exposure is likely to be against prevalent standard of decency and may in fact be a violation of the law." The word 'deliberate' should be underlined.

In the United Kingdom (that is England, Wales and Northern Ireland), indecent exposure is defined as "male or female exposing their genital, intending another to see them and to cause alarm." This is covered by their Sexual Offences Act. While in America, they don't have a sexual law on indecent exposure, all the states of the federation have their own laws. Some call it Public Indecency or Nudity. In fifty states of the United States, indecent exposure is defined by state law as "exposure of genital and/or the female breast in a public place." It may, in some states, require evidence of intent to shock, arouse and /or offend other persons. That is the position in America. What they (Americans) are saying is that an act does not constitute an offence unless the mind consents to it. If you are leaving your house and you dress in such a manner that is capable of attracting public attention or arousing others, automatically, it is punishable under United States laws.