The former Chairman of the Independent National Electoral Commission, INEC, Dr Abel Guobadia's, outburst, penultimate week, in Benin City over alleged threat to his life by agents suspected to be working for the Bishop of his Church, the William Payne Anglican Church, Benin City, came as a shock to the people of Edo State and Nigerians in general, considering the fact that this was coming right on the heels of a fire incident which consumed the residence of the Chairman of the Edo State Local Government Election Appeal Tribunal, Justice Rowland Amaize, months after he raised alarm over threat to his life.

Guobadia fingered the Bishop of the Anglican Communion, Bishop Imasuen, as the person behind his travails and petitioned the state Police Commissioner, Mr Chris Dega, to investigate the matter seriously.

The petition dated October 14, 2008, said that "as you very well know, the use of hired thugs by the Bishop to disrupt church services in William Payne Church took a dramatic form on Monday night at about 3am when three gun men went to the church premises.

They forced their way into the vicarage where they found the driver of the church vehicle. At gun point, they got the driver to move the vehicle to the Bishops court where it is now parked. I should be grateful for your interest in this matter and for security coverage" the petition stated.

The 76 year old former INEC boss, showed Vanguard some of the text messages sent to his phone and they read: "yourself, Justice Aluyi and Pa Igbinovia should leave Bishop Imasuen alone. Na your house den dey hold meetings for anoda Diocese.

When we don finish with the Igbo Church you are the next casualty. We will kidnap your wife and burn down your house. Remove your hand from Bishop Imasuen's body".

"Make you dey remember say Bola Ige don die o and you are now warned to stay clear from Bishop Imasuen. We go visit your house for GRA next week on the 20th of this month. Leave Bishop Imasuen alone or we will not leave you, Justice Aluyi and Pa Igbinovia" the text stated.

However, Vanguard met Dr Guobadia while he was relaxing in his serene palatial residence in Benin City to get his views on the problems confronting the nation's electoral system and other national issues and he bared his mind.

He accused Nigerian politicians of being behind the problem in the electoral system and called for what he described as serious orientation of the nation's politicians. He gave reasons why his Commission cleared the Governor of Delta State, Chief James Ibori, and Senator Iyiola Omisore to contest elections in 2003 even though majority of Nigerians kicked against that. He declared that no competent court found them guilty of the allegations levelled against them, therefore, it would be wrong to disqualify them.

He also commented on the attempt to disqualify Vice-President Atiku Abubakar from contesting the Presidential election in 2007. He spoke on the June 12 election, electoral reform, governance, the Niger Delta crisis and other issues.

Recently, you petitioned the state police commissioner over alleged threat to your life because of the crisis rocking your church. What actually is the problem in the church?

Well, the problem is all about the efforts by some of us who are elders in this diocese to create a new diocese out of the present Benin Diocese.

Now, the matter has been on for a little over a year and the elders support the splitting of the diocese into two right across the metropolis so that one side of it to the East, which has St Mathews Cathedral, remains as the present Benin Diocese, and the other side of it, which is the West, with St Peter's Church, Lagos Street as cathedral, will become Benin West Diocese.

That has been the position, but some how, the church leadership does not like that arrangement and it has labelled some of us who are supporting this position as people who want to cause trouble in the diocese, agents of devil and all sort of names.

So, the text messages we received are warning us against creating a Benin West Diocese. And in any event, the creation of a Diocese will not end without a Bishop here. We set up a committee of 22 people. Two people out of this group wrote a minority report which fell with the position of the elders, Justice Odubor and Justice Aluyi. We commended it but the other group recommended some thing different.

Well, I think the proper thing to do is to send the two reports to the authority which created the Diocese, the general synod, and it will take its decision. There is no need to antagonise those of us who took a position on the issue. We have the right to take a position.

Then what brought about the issue of locking the Igbos out of the Church last Sunday by the Bishop?

I would not know why they were locked out. But, let me tell you that what I saw on television that day, that the Igbos are anti Binis, cannot be the correct position. As you know, Benin City has been a metropolis for centuries, it did not even start when the British came; it started during our past as an empire.

With the coming of the missionaries, St. James Church, Akpakpava, was first started by the Yorubas, it was a Yoruba speaking Church. In fact, till today, those of us who know still call it St James foreigners Church. But when other ethnic nationalities started coming and the older people who started it, of course, died, English became the language of worship there.

St Paul 's 2nd East Circular Road, is an Igbo Church.

In fact, the Igbos moved away from St Mathews to form that church because our parents found out that the Igbo population was getting large and they were now following the service in Benin. So, our fore fathers even helped to build St Paul. Igbo church has been there; that church has been there for over 50 years. It became so full too that this Payne broke away from there.

There was a school in their present site, so they were moved and started worshiping in one of the classrooms there. They later developed the place, the present edifice you see there was built by Igbo business men and traders. Though they were a few people who donated money to them but I will say that the credit for building that edifice goes to the Igbos.

What a lot of people do not know is that that edifice was first commissioned in 2002 by the Primate of Nigeria, most Reverend Akinola. Less than a year later, the church collapsed and the people rebuilt it. Now, let me add that it is an Igbo church that has been there for over thirty years.

They did not have problems with the past Bishops. Why is it that it is only in the last four years that the problem came up; because there was problem in 2004 over the same issue and it was resolved.Again the problem has started.

We certainly know that it is an Igbo Church because even in the metropolis here, apart from the Igbo church, there is Isoko Church, Emmanuel Church in Benin here.

But, why are they using thugs to chase away the Igbos in a place that is supposed to be a place of worship?

Well I do not know. But what I saw on television on that Sunday was that some youths who paraded themselves as youths of that Church locked out the Igbos.

But, for me, that was laughable because 99.9 percent of the people worshipping in that Church are Igbos. So, we refused to believe that out of that congregation, there were so many youths of that church who came to lock out the older people.

I refuse to believe it. But just as you have said, most people believe that they were thugs who were invited to the church - certainly not by the Igbos because they will not bring thugs to lock one another out.

Frankly, like I said earlier, our own issue is the creation of a new Diocese. When this problem is resolved one way or the other by the Church of Nigeria, Anglican Communion, then we would have to agree that that would be it. Nobody is quarrelling with him (Bishop Imasuen).

I can speak for most of the elders that I know of, we are not quarrelling with him. We are only asking for what is right.

So, what have the police done so far over the threat to your life?

Well, they took my statement after I petitioned and I know that they are conducting their investigation.

Can we know what you have been doing since you left office as the Chairman of INEC?

Service to community - like the church matter we are talking about now, it is part of the community activities. I engage in other community services, helping my people the little way I can to the best of my ability. I do a lot of reading too. I travel, I just returned from the United States about two weeks ago. I went for two months vacation. I think that is enough for somebody who is 76 years old.

Nigerians are yearning for electoral reforms, as the former INEC boss, can we know those areas you feel should be reformed in our electoral system?

Well, there is no system that is static, we must keep improving. So those who demand electoral reforms, they have a point. There is a committee now working on the issue, they have received memorandum from different people, I made my own little input to that committee. So, we should all wait to see what they will come up with.

Nigerians, as you know, have lost confidence in the electoral system. We want to know between INEC and politicians who would you hold responsible for election malpractices?

I would not know, but the business of INEC is to arrange for the smooth conduct of the election, provide the registers, the materials, prepare the polling booths so as to enable all those who are willing to vote and are qualified to vote to come and vote.

INEC has no policing role to play. The only policing role it has is to ensure that its own procedures are kept by those of its own officers who are entrusted with the conduct of election.

When you talk about manipulation, it is not something that happens on the spot, like the issue of stuffing ballot boxes - it must have been carried out several days or weeks before the election. So, it is an issue of moral conduct.

The religious values - we all pretend we are Christians, Moslems and pagans, and also have our values too, it is just that when the chips are down, we forget our moral ethics or codes prescribed by these religions. That is where we have a problem.

Nigerian politicians just have to play this game according to the rules. While I do not absolve INEC of complete responsibilities in avoiding election malpractices, but I think over 90 percent of the blame must go to politicians. They are the problem of the election. You see politicians snatching ballot boxes, you would not hear about that in the developed countries.

It is always observed that during elections, policemen who guard the polling booths are not armed. Do you think it is proper because the thugs capitalise on that to snatch ballot boxes?

That is also part of our moral conduct too. Look, the ideal thing is that the polling station should not be manned by any security people carrying guns - that is the ideal thing. I was in Zimbabwe in 2002 elections, there were no armed policemen manning the polling booths. People came and they knew they were going to do the right thing. If you get security personnel, they also misuse their positions.

So, really, the country should make more effort in reforming the people to do the right thing. Until we can do that, we are wasting time.

Yes, we spend a lot of money printing ballot papers, security proof and all that, but I know about a lot of countries where the ballot paper is not more than what the school children use to vote, tear a piece of paper out and they do it.

I was in one African country about five or six years ago to observe an election, they told me that they can leave their polling materials in the street there over night, nobody will touch it. When we got there, the electoral officers came and took their materials and went their separate ways, no escort nothing. That is the ideal we should be working for.

It is not to fortify all our polling stations with armed security personnel. We have 120,000 polling stations in this country, assuming an average of five policemen in a police station that is 600,000. It will look as if the whole country is in a state of war.

Nigerians believe that the June 12, 1993 election is still the best election in terms of conducting a free and fair election and that it is more credible than the one you conducted?

The environments were different. First, Nwosu's own was open secret ballot. Well you may call it open secret but when people line up in front of their preferred candidates, it is no longer secret balloting and, to me, that looks odd in a democracy. The one we conducted was strictly secret balloting.

In any case, Nwosu conducted the election in a military regime; we conducted our own in a civilian regime. You can weigh the two, the discipline in a military environment and the discipline in a civilian regime and you know the one that is higher. The mere fact that the soldiers are watching is enough to scare some anti-social behaviour from people.

Can we know the problems you confronted as INEC boss?

Our greatest problem was funding because to prepare for an election is not what you do over a one-month period. Something like the electronic register, for example, we prepared the first electronic register in this country in 2003.

By the time we wanted to start in 2000, experts warned us to take a minimum of two years to come up with a good electronic register. But money was required and we did not get that money until nine months to 2003 elections. Now, we succeeded in getting an electronic register that period, right, but other parts of the instruments like ballot papers, training of personnel and a lot of things required money.

All these monies came too near the election time to what can be taken to yield to efficient management of the election. We did our best based on what was available but I certainly believe that if we got that money earlier than we did, we would have done a better job. So whatever problems that may be faced, the issue of timely funding must be addressed. It is very important.

We had other problems, politicians always fighting but we were not involved in the political process, we tried to distance ourselves from their politics and face only electoral issues.

Was there any time you were under pressure from government to allow some particular candidates run for election?

The qualifications are well spelt out. My group of Commissioners were highly seasoned people. All they did was to screen candidates according to the qualification prescribed. Those who are qualified, we screened them. We did not have to listen to what some external people are saying. I'll give you a good example. Senator Omisore had problems. The public opinion in this country then was that we should not clear him but, as far as we were concerned, he had not done anything because there was no evidence that he was a criminal.

He was indicted but he had not been convicted. So we cleared him. We were unpopular but events later proved that we were right. James Ibori also had the same problem and he was cleared too. If you say somebody is a criminal, you have to prove it. At least, to my Commission, to the extent that could be determined from the evidence before us, he was not a criminal and we cleared him.

We have discovered that the ruling party is always wining elections in the country and the opposition is not allowed to rule. Do you not think that it is a defect in our electoral system - like in America when the people got tired of the Republicans they started voting them out in the Congress, but here in Nigeria, the PDP has continued to sweep the polls?

You mentioned America, they have two political parties, even Britain who gave us independence, has three, Labour, Liberal and the Conservatives.

Now, my Commission became unpopular in 2002 because we prescribed conditions for registering new political parties, which turned out to be our crime then.

But what was uppermost in our time was that to become a political party, you must show seriousness. But the constitution made it possible that any group of persons who want to constitute themselves into a political party, is free to do so.

We were now following the constitution, so from three parties then, it now became about thirty parties. But what was strange is that on the day I was giving certificates to these parties, even some people who were at the vanguard of calling for more political parties confessed to me that they are too many. But that was what the constitution says.

Now, I think the parties are even more than forty. But I think the mood now is to reduce the number of parties. So I think to answer your question, let political parties that really can lead and be effective, be registered. Nigeria is a big country. It is not in my own opinion that every political party can be a national party - that is, have roots in all parts of the federation.

There could be local parties, but let the national parties not be too many because when you do that, the parties that came into existence is not an accident, the strongest parties are still PDP, ANPP and AC and AC, of course, you know it is an off shoot of the PDP. And it is not by accident that those three parties are the strongest parties.

So if we continue like this, the stronger parties will continue to dominate - that is the truth.

Cross carpeting is one of the major causes of this issue of proliferation of political parties. Don't you think our politicians would be better oriented to be real party men rather than cross carpeting because of internal party crisis?

Well, there is freedom of choice, people should be free to cross over to where they feel they now belong if they find out that they made a mistake. But the real issue is that the business of governance, the business of going into the legislative house, like the National or State Assembly is a very serious business but we are not taking it serious in this country. Not just anybody, the society must agree on the people to go to that place.

I think being a parliamentarian should be reserved for people who are matured, know their society and are well experienced.

By the time we start to do that, we will start having better politicians and better political arrangement. Right now, you see young people, some of them just left school, no work experience, nothing. What experience will they throw up to move their communities forward, nothing!

A lot of Nigerians believe that the election you conducted in 2003 was one of the most fraudulent elections in this country because some persons won elections even while in detention. How would you react to that?

It depends on what side of the fence you belong. There are those who said that it was good, those who may have been the winners but there are also those who said that it was marred by violence, those were the losers.

But thank God the country managed to survive it. The tribunals did their work, those who were declared winners unduly, the tribunals declared it invalid and fresh elections were held or those who should have been the right winners were reinstated. That is the normal thing in an election. People must always complain about an election.

But what lessons do you think we can learn from the crisis between the then President Olusegun Obasanjo and Vice President Atiku which culminated to the latter joining the Action Congress, AC?

Well, I do not know the state of the problem then between both of them. But I can only judge from what I read in the papers and I think it is precisely for the same reason that Atiku is in court today to contest the election of Yar'Adua.

To answer your question, which is related to an earlier one. It is true that Atiku was indicted of some wrong doings, but no court declared him as a criminal. So, that process that denied him nomination at the time when others are being nominated was faulty. It was really faulty. I know that some Nigerians then really wanted him disqualified based on the fact that he was indicted but their demands were not backed by law. So, the lesson is let us follow the spirit of the law and let us all obey the law.

How can you compare politicians of today and those of the First and Second Republic?

Well, in the 60s, I was already a man and I took part in the conduct of the election. I was the returning officer of what is now called Isoko area Delta State. That time it was a different political arrangement that was the parliamentary system. You just have to be popular with your people; your people must accept you to get elected.

Even if you are the leader of your party at the national level, if you are not elected in your constituency, you cannot be President or the Prime Minister.

But under the presidential arrangement, it is a different ball game.

The leader of the party, the governor or the president, they are elected by the entire state or the country, so you cannot compare it with a situation like Osadebe, for example, who became the Prime Minister of Midwest state because he won his election from his constituency. If he had not won the election from his constituency, he would not have become the Prime Minister.

So the political arrangements are different and the basis of comparison is not really there. But I will say that politicians then were more dedicated, they were working more in the interest of moving the country forward.

On infrastructural decay in the country

The issue of the neglect or the decay in infrastructures, I do not think it is something we can blame on one regime. Take the problem of Benin City roads for example, a government that is in office for four years, with all the monies in the world available to it, if he makes only Benin City roads his priority, it will make some substantial impact. But you cannot do all the roads.

That is the reality of the fact. So I think there must be continuity of project execution from one government to another, even if they are not in the same political party. The next government must see itself as continuing where the other stopped.

Well, this makes me turn to the problem of the civil service. People always talk of the politicians but the civil service is a very important arm of the government because they ensure the continuity of policies. They ensure that once a government comes in, the new government fully understands what is on ground before it starts taking decisions.

So I think the situation in the civil service has to improve. A director in the ministry is a powerful person, you are directing, you are not to be directed by the minister or the commissioner. Politicians must learn to continue with what they inherited and the civil service too must be up and doing in their responsibilities.

The government should beam its searchlight on that sector because a nation without a strong civil service is in a big problem.

How would you assess the administration of President Yar'Adua so far?

I am not qualified to assess him. He has only been in office for less than two years, let's give him some more time because it is still early to judge him.

What about your native Edo State?

The same thing; I told you I was away for two months, I only came back few weeks ago. But I do not think Governor Osunbor is doing badly. For me, what is important is that inspite all the wranglings about the elections, we are still together as a nation. We should congratulate the leadership at all levels for that peace.

Was there any time you were scared that the nation may break up because of the elections while you were INEC chairman?

I had no worries whatsoever as far as the electoral process were concerned. I only told people to play the game according to the constitution. I had no fear. I knew God will always take control of the situation.

Niger Delta crisis?

I am part of the Niger Delta so whatever can be done by government to bring peace in the region is welcomed. There are many arrangements on the ground now which we are watching to see how it goes. Any institution depends on the quality of the people you put to man the place.

Nobody has been appointed to man the Niger Delta Ministry yet so we cannot start to say whether it will succeed or not. But if you ask me, the government must understand the aspirations of the people before making the appointment.

The person must be knowledgeable, and very sensitive to the plight of the people. The person must know the terrain very well so as to know how to site projects and other things which would be geared towards providing development to the people of the region.

I keep praying for the militant youths, but I want to say that they can pursue their goals without violence or kidnapping of innocent persons. They can make their points well without shooting. They should lay down their arms and allow the federal government execute the plans it has for the people of the region.

What is your message for Nigerians?

I know that Nigerians want to have a great democracy like the United States and Europe. I know Nigerians want all the good things of life but we should remember that their due position cannot be realised in one day. It must take time, it is a gradual process.

And, again, most of our planning seems to be on the assumption that once we do it like this, we will just be there. We must go on gradually as a nation and be patient. What is important is that there is a master plan and there are people who are entrusted with the execution of the master plan. They should endeavour to follow the master plan meticulously, which, I believe is the solution to our problems.