16 November 2008
interview
The name of Major-General Adeyinka Adebayo stands out as one of the nation's military leaders that emerged after the second coup of 1966. As the military governor of Western Region, the responsibility of resolving the crisis in the region that partly sparked off the coup fell on his laps. Former President Olusegun Obasanjo and the late Chief Bola Ige, among others, served in his cabinet.
In this interview, Adebayo, who, at 80, remains mentally alert, speaks on events before and after Nigeria's first and second coups, the state of the nation, the Obasanjo presidency, Yoruba Council of Elders, YCE, which he heads and Yoruba leadership.
HOW would you describe the state of the nation?
Well, the state of the nation, one can say is not what it should be. One would expect that the nation should be better than what it is now. Since we got independence in 1960, 48 years ago, nevertheless, we are still a developing nation. The politics of the nation is not stable yet, the economy is not too strong yet. Unfortunately, people take so much interest in the politics of the nation than in the economy.
Everybody wants to participate in politics just to get to the top of politics and to the root of the economy. This we have all seen, the pros and cons, of what is going wrong in the country. People are beginning to realise that we should play down on the politics of the nation and play up the economy and the population of the elite is becoming more and more everyday. And the elite have to live well and they have to find their feet. Therefore, people like us are running around so that government spends more time and money on improving the economy, so that school leavers can get jobs.
You were a governor at a time in this country. Would you say the kind of development you would have loved to see is what you have seen under successive governments?
Unfortunately, we have had so many kinds of government. We had civilian regime before 1960 and after 1960. Then first military regime took over in 1966 and I served in the military regime from August 1966. Then the military handed over to civilians in 1979. Again, military took over again from Shehu Shagari. And there hasn't been stable platform since then.
Like as I said, everybody is beginning to understand now that the country has to settle so that everybody will have where to eat or to find his or her platform. That is why even the military itself wants a stable country to enable people to live long and serve their country well. Everybody is concerned about it and those of us who are lucky to still be alive today have great concern about the nation. For instance, I am the only one still alive in my generation today. So, I thank God for it and I am ready to advice quietly without making noise, just to push the country forward.
Who are the members of your generation. Would you like to mention their names?
My generation includes General Ironsi, Ademulegun, Shodeinde, Bassey, Ogundipe. I am N7 and West Africa 23 because we had the West African Frontier Force before independence.
Training in the Gold Coast. So, we were all trained in the Gold Coast. I was Number 23 commissioned officer in West Africa and N7 in Nigeria.
In your days, we learnt that a lot of Ekiti people went into the military. What informed this?
I advised them to go into the military. Because I was alone from Ekiti, I advised people like Francis Fajuyi and others to come in as potential officers. And we didn't disappoint then, so more of them came in after us.
What was the vision then?
Because the British officers were going and they wanted Nigerian officers to take over from them. And I felt it was a good opportunity for me, in my position, to encourage Yoruba, not only Ekitis, to be there. And people took our advice, not my advice alone. They took the advice of Adebo, the number one Yoruba man, followed by Shodeinde, followed by Ogundipe, followed by me. Bassey was N1 from Calabar. Ironsi was N2 from the east, Igbo. So, we called our people, the Yoruba, to come in and we got them in.
What was the journey in the army like?
The journey in the army was very, very good. We were very loyal to each other, loved one another. We didn't breath on each other's neck.
You said you encouraged other people to come into the army. At what stage would you say ethnicity crept into the Nigerian military?
Well, I would say the first military coup was staged by the Igbo officers, Ifeajuna and younger officers, Nzeogwu and co. Unfortunately, at that time, only few northerners were in the officers rank of the military - Maimalari, Bawa Mohammed. There were a few of them. Then the second coup actually brought in more people from the North, because there was suspicion that the first coup was done by the Igbo, and the second coup was done by the northerners.
So, thereafter, we regularized the intake of the officer corps, you had to go through exams, interviews, all sorts of qualities you must have before you were made officer, you had to pass the exams, you had to go to the college in Teshi, Gold Coast, from there you go for either short service commission in England or Sandhurst. Short service was meant for those who had been in the army, who had done their training within the army, Sandhurst was meant for those who were recruited, done the exams and went straight to the academy.
Those days, the impression was that it was those who were not inclined to education that went into the army?
The never-do-well? That impression was wrong. You had to know what you wanted in life before coming into the army.
They say there was this mutual suspicion, one ethnic group did not want others to join the army.
No, initially, there was no ethnicity. It was the first coup that brought the suspicion into the military. Then after the coup, people started showing interest. People started knowing that there is a future in the army, and that if you can do well, there is future in the army, which is true.
Not that people wanted to become governors?
No. For instance, I was not going to be governor anyway. I went through the various courses in the army. Luckily, I went through all the positions of my rank in the army before the second coup of 1966. Moments before the coup, I had come home on a visit, to see the Head of State, then General Ironsi. I was then on a course in England at the British Defence College, which is the highest military and defence course in the Commonwealth College. Nigerian officers started going there from Ironsi, he was N2, as I said. It is a one-year course.
After Ironsi, Ademulegun went, after Ademulegun, I think Ogundipe went. After Ogundipe, I went. I had come home on a visit to confer, because the first coup took place barely weeks after I left home on that course. And I was then the chief of staff, army headquarters, the first Nigerian to be appointed the chief of staff, army headquarters and I was on that job till November 1965, and Mohammed who took over from me was killed in that first coup.
So, I thank God I wasn't home, possibly I would have gone with the first coup. Then the second coup too, I was lucky. I wrote to Ironsi who was then the Head of State, and Ogundipe, who was chief of general staff, that I was coming. I got to Nigeria in the morning of July 28, 1966. Ironsi was visiting the Mid-West and the West. I hadn't seen him.
Ogundipe, who was chief of general staff, sent a car to meet me at the airport. He organised a guest house for me to stay. From the airport, they took me to the guest house and I left my luggage at the guest house. Since Ironsi was away and he would not be back till the following day, I decided to see some of my friends in Lagos, because I left them six months earlier.
I was going round now and ended that night in a cousin's house, late Chief Adeyemi. He was living at Alhaji Ribadu Road. He was the chief architect of Lagos Development Corporation, LDPC, in those days. So, I ended up in his house. We were discussing about Iyi Ekiti, about our parents, and so on. And I looked at the time, it was 11.00 p.m.
I was still wearing the shirt I wore since the previous day from London. I said, 'Egbon, mo nlo o', let me go and rest, because I have got to see the head of state tomorrow, he was coming back the following morning. He said, 'no, stay here.' I was still wearing the same shirt. My pyjamas, which I was going to wear to sleep was still in my suitcase.
Anyway, since he was 'egbon', I agreed. And when I woke up in the morning, a coup had already taken place in the night. And again, as I said, I was lucky. Maybe, if I hadn't slept in that house, they would have got me here too. So, I missed the first coup, I missed the second coup.
You were really lucky. It was in the second coup that Ironsi was killed and Ironsi was your commander-in-chief?
Yes, he was head of state and commander-in-chief.
What kind of person was he? One retired army officer has described him as a useless man. How would you react to that?
It is not a good thing for a junior officer to be saying that his senior officer is useless or was useless. They battled him. That was why I said I don't want to see that kind of leadership. That is why I don't believe in condemning senior officers, even junior officers, I don't condemn them. That is one of the problems we have in the country. Someone can criticize, but you don't criticize, using abusive language against your senior officers, who gave you the opportunity to take over from them.
Maybe Ironsi was killed as a result of the bad blood they had against him.
Even if now, I wouldn't say it openly like that. But my attitude is that I have learnt a lesson through that person. Even though he didn't do well with me, I have learnt a lesson from him.
How was government in those days? You were in government for how many years?
I was in government for four years, in the West as governor. Well, I did my best, and when I felt I was getting too long there, I begged (General Yakubu) Gowon to excuse me to leave. I persuaded him, I said I wanted to go back to my military duty. Invariably he agreed. I was posted to Nigeria Defence Academy (NDA) as commandant.
And two years later, I retired from the army. When Murtala Mohammed overthrew Gowon in 1975, I felt I didn't fit in anymore, because Murtala was too young to me. In 1962, when there was emergency in the West, and Chief Majekodunmi was appointed as administrator, I appointed Murtala to be his ADC, and Murtala was a captain then. I was a lieutenant colonel at that time. So, I felt it was unwise of me and unfair to him, for me to work under him and Obasanjo. Because Obasanjo and himself were course-mates.
You would have been retired anyway if you hadn't voluntarily retired. You were satisfied then...
I hadn't finished my term as a military officer, but I had to go because I couldn't work under a junior officer.
We are saying, after working as governor of Western Region, you were satisfied, you were comfortable, so...
No, no, no. It is not comfortable, I did my best. I was not trained to be a military governor. I was trained to be a soldier, a military officer. It was not a matter of being comfortable. I was comfortable in the army. I was the first general staff officer of the army, and the first chief of staff, army headquarters, I was in the first in about four appointments.
Even if you were comfortable in the army, the resources at your disposal ...
We were not talking about money then. In our time, we were not talking about money. We were talking about service. I was ADC to Sir James Robertson in 1957, the first Nigerian to be his military ADC.
Who killed Ironsi? Who shot him?
I don't know.
Some people have said it was Danjuma, is it true?
I don't know.
He was very close to you ...
I don't know.
The nation marked its 48 independence anniversary last month. People are saying the military incursion into governance led to the nation's problems. What would you say?
What have civilians done now? There were incursions by civilian governments, what did the civilians do during their turn too? And when there are military incursions, there are civilians working with them. When I was the governor of the West, there were 12 civilians working under me as commissioners, and we had only three people in uniform in the cabinet- myself, Obasanjo, who was the army commander there, the commissioner of police. They were members of the cabinet. Only three of us were in uniform. The other twelve were civilians. So, can you now say it was only a military government?
But even at that, you, at the end, had the final say on any issue?
I appointed them as my commissioners. But what I am trying to say is that, will you say it was the military men that were running the government? I want us to accept that both civilians and military are guilty.
But the military was calling the shots and so must accept responsibility ...
Yes, naturally. I mean, it was a military government, therefore, you must put the blame on the military. But I am saying, it is not me alone, it was not only the military that were in government. If my commissioner for finance, commissioner for industries, commissioner for health, gave me advice, gave me a memo, I look at the memo, I say, 'well, very good memo', and I approve. Or I take it to the cabinet, we discuss it, the cabinet and whatever is agreed to is implemented.
Can you remember some of the people who worked with you as commissioners then?
Yes. I had Bola Ige, Bisi Onabanjo. My own is that I knew the problem in the West before I became governor, because I was in high military hierarchy in the ministry of defence. I knew what was going on in the whole country and in the four regions, then. So, I knew the West very well. I knew the problems, most of the problems that we had in Nigeria then, starting from the West, starting from 1962 when we had emergency in the West, when Majekodunmi was appointed the administrator.
We knew when Awolowo was jailed. We knew the problem between NCNC and Action Group in the West. So, I decided, 'what do I do?' I knew the former political parties in the West who were still under me. You had the Action Group, you had the NCNC, you had NNDP.
Because Action Group was strong, I took six people from Action Group, I took three from NCNC and then I took three from the NNDP. So, I balanced it up. And I got on well with them. And they did very well, because they knew what I was doing. I got peace back. Even when they wanted to drive the military away early, and what they called the Agbekoya episode in the West, I insisted that I will stop the Agbekoya episode. I went to Agbekoya village. I went to the village. People advised I shouldn't go. I said, 'I am a soldier, why should I be afraid of a civilian apparatus?
So, I went. I got there, I talked to them. They said they were happy to see the military governor among them. They were happy that I came. I think it was on a Thursday, so I said, 'I have seen you now, I have seen your headquarters.
I want you to see me too at Government House, next Sunday'. I said, 'six to twelve of you to come to Government House on Sunday'. And they came to Agodi. And they had lunch with me. They were surprised, they said, 'eh, governor?' And that was how I settled Agbekoya. They were surprised that someone could be bold enough to go and bring them to Government House. And I became their friend.
Was that your most difficult task?
I was in the Congo.
I mean, difficult task as governor of the West?
I wouldn't say most difficult, because sorting out problem of dissidents is part of my professional training. You can say difficult, you set something difficult for me, because I will look for another tactics to settle you. And that is the end.
Let's talk about democracy in Nigeria. Post-independence democracy up till now.
Unfortunately, as I said, democracy was supposed to have taken over properly. Unfortunately, both military and civilians themselves did not settle down to really get democracy to work properly. After the military didn't want to go in 1993, the NADECO problem started in the West, and when Abacha, former head of state, died, Abdulsalami took over, organised the 1999 Constitution, formed political parties. Obasanjo was brought in by northerners as the candidate of the PDP and he got in as the president. And he did his first term. Remember, the West didn't vote for him seriously, for his first term, because he wasn't their candidate.
But we convinced ourselves when he was coming in for second term that 'look, Obasanjo is a Yoruba man, he is using our quota. There are six zones, three in the south, three in the north. So, he was using south-western zone's quota'. I said 'let's vote for him for second term because if we don't before we can get the presidency again, it will be another 48 years time. So, we convinced ourselves here and we went to campaign outside, that they should vote for him. That was how we voted for him for the second term.
Were you disappointed by Obasanjo's performance because you were his direct elder?
I was disappointed, I was disappointed.
Specifically, in which areas?
No. My own type of character is different from others. I don't criticize people openly. I have been to him several time, I talked to him, I told him my mind.
Would you say the Yoruba had its fair share under his administration?
You people should know. You people should say it. I, General Adebayo, in my position today in Nigeria, should not criticize him openly when I have access to him. That is why we are in trouble. When we talk to the third person of what a person did or what he didn't do, we shout upstairs, we condemn. Possibly, some of the things he did were good, but by shouting what he didn't do, we kill some of the great things that he did. So, there is no point telling people that when he was there, he didn't do this, he didn't do that.
When you spoke to him in private, did he tell you the reason why he didn't perform?
Nobody said he didn't perform.
Maybe we should put it this way, some of the advice you gave him, did he say why he didn't carry them out? Maybe he didn't listen to you.
Again, my own character is quite different. I told him what he was doing wrong, I told him what he had done right. And I said he should do this or do that. To me, he might have done some well, but to some people he must have done a lot of things wrong.
Tell us about the Obasanjo you know. He worked with you as far as in Ibadan?
He was a good military officer, but wasn't a good civilian.
Tell us about Obasanjo you know, in terms of personality?
Obasanjo was a soldier.
As a person, as an individual?
Obasanjo is a good person as a personality, and he was a good soldier.
But as a civilian president, you were disappointed?
I was disappointed by some of the things he did, not all.
Can you tell us some of the things he did that you did not like? Could this include his quest for third term in office?
Well, there was no need for him to come back for third term, because he had been a very lucky man. Having ruled the country for three years under military regime, having ruled the country for four years, first term, and ruling the country, another four years, second term, making a total of eleven years, I would have said, 'Oluwa", thank God o! I must go now o!' (laughter). As I said again, I am saying he didn't do it on his own. Some people must have advised him for continuity, and he fell to that advice.
Did you advise him on that too?
Don't worry about that.
Well, let's talk about President Yar'Adua now that Obasanjo is gone. Yar'Adua has been there for one and a half years now. What is your impression about him?
He is taking his time. You know he was governor of Katsina State, and then he was brought in as president and head of state. I am sure, he wants to make his mark. In listening to people about what he thought Obasanjo didn't do right, he must have noticed himself, because he was governor and he had his colleagues and possibly he didn't want to make the mistakes they thought Obasanjo made, but he is taking his own time. That, as far as some people are concerned, is very slow. And he doesn't want to rush. In addition, it was said he wasn't too well; maybe he has to take his time to make sure he doesn't complicate issues for himself with his ill health and slow pace.
Again, with the number and type of people we have in Nigeria, people want to be ministers, people want to be advisers, he wants to choose the right people. He would want to ensure he has the right people; you know, if anything happens wrongly, if he makes any mistakes, the whole thing will be on him, as the president of the country. He is being careful. He wants to take his time. But to Nigerians, he is slow. They want quick action, because they feel they have been waiting for too long for action.
But you don't think he is on the right track? But do we know what the right track is in Nigeria?
Yes, we do.
What is it?
Providing a sound economy and all its attendant benefits, regular electricity supply, etc.
Yes, we know all that.
And that is why you are sitting here, because there is no electricity in the house. We know there is no electricity supply in the neighbourhood right now, because we can hear the sound of generators all around...
Let's say I don't like the generator.
Do you enjoy regular power supply in this area?
Maybe I don't like regular power supply. Look at my gardens, there is sufficient fresh air coming in here.
Some people don't have gardens to have fresh air.
Well, they can go to their villages then.
Would you say Nigerians are satisfied with the activities of this government, in terms of food, shelter, the necessary human needs?
As far as the country is concerned, people feel they haven't got what they wanted. For instance, education, the slow pace in education, although they are creating a lot of universities, a lot of technical colleges, people are not thinking, when those their boys come out of the universities, what they are going to do, what appointments are they going to hold?
As you said, water is important. Power, very important too. We hear and read in your newspapers that government has voted so much money on water, so much money on power, or roads, and we don't see the effect on the ground. And when you read the papers, everyday, you read about corruption, that they voted so much money and that 75 per cent of the money voted was carted away by key people who were supposed to be spending the money for the right causes of the people. People are suffering, people are still suffering. No good food, and there are many deficiencies in the system.
Based on these things you have said, if you see the president today, what will you tell him, what advice will you give him?
I will tell him about what people say: No good water, no good road. I will tell him that one day, I was coming from Ibadan to Lagos, it took me four and a half hours. I will tell him that one day I was going to Iyin Ekiti from Lagos, it took me seven hours, because of bad roads. I will tell him that I use "well" water in my house. No water supply, no power supply, no drug supply.
The greatest threat to this country today is the problem of the Niger Delta. What advice will you give him on the Niger Delta?
I think the problem of the Niger Delta was caused by the country, government caused it. For instance, in 2005, there was a committee appointed by the Obasanjo regime on Niger Delta derivation. You know then they gave them 13 per cent derivation. I think at that conference, they were asking for 50 per cent, invariably, we agreed on 25 per cent. Unfortunately, we were not allowed even to finish the conference before we were disbanded. I was there representing Yoruba Council of Elders (YCE), as a nominee of the YCE by their president. So, what we did at that period was a waste as we are still on that 13 per cent.
Now the Niger Delta people are still saying they want to control their resources. Naturally, they are right and they have intelligent leaders. They too want to chop (laughter). But they are fighting for their people and their people feel they are fighting for them. At the same time the people that are fighting are fighting for themselves. I think the Yar'Adua government is taking the right decision by saying they will have a ministry of Niger Delta. How is he to do it? Is he going to cancel NDDC? Or tell the ministry to take over the duties of NDDC, or NDDC becomes a parastatal of the ministry?
That will be double decker or double expenses. But if really we want Niger Delta to exist and we all agree that the ministry should stay, there must be some powers of what the ministry should do. And it is not necessary that an indigene of that area should be the minister, it could be anybody. Somebody who loves the country, who loves the people, who loves the economy of the country, who knows the interest of the area, should be appointed to work hard to make an impact in the area.
The argument is that the person must understand the terrain?
We all understand Nigeria.
But the Niger Delta is peculiar.
What is peculiar there? I know they have not done well for the Niger Delta. If you look at the area on television, or on photographs, there is no development there. Only one road leads to the place, you see a lot of tents in the place. No water, nothing. Anybody should know what people need either in Niger Delta or no Niger Delta. If the president feels that he should appoint a Niger Delta man, then, there is nothing wrong. But I am saying it doesn't necessarily have to be a person from the Niger Delta.
It can be anybody.
It can be anybody, it can be Igbo, it can be Yoruba, but it must somebody who loves the country, who loves the progress of the people.
Let's talk about the Yoruba nation. What is your impression of the Yoruba nation?
Well, I think my own attitude of the Yoruba nation is that we have enough misunderstanding among ourselves. We talk about leadership, leadership all the time. What we need in Yoruba area is followership. Everybody is a leader in Yoruba land. The time has gone when they say 'this is my leader', 'this is my leader'. Political leader, yes. You know political leaders are only temporary anyway. And when they want to change, that is when they get into trouble. But to say you want to have one person to be the leader of Yoruba, when you have different groups of people, I disagree.
For instance, in Yoruba area, we have traditional rulers, we have the elders, highly educated people, you have organisations with good minds, good ideas. You have cultural organisations with good ideas. We have individuals with good ideas. All we need is to get those people together occasionally to discuss about the problems. They don't have to be politicians.
So, if we call ourselves occasionally to discuss the problems together, then we have solution to our problems. But to say, 'eh, he is the leader of the Yoruba', supposing I don't like him? I cause trouble again; I create trouble from my own side to him. Let us all sit down, draw out our problem as Yoruba people, social problem, that's what we want, not political problem. Because when you talk about political problem, you are going to individuals.
Who wants to be the leader, the prime minister, the president? In the same party, he wants to be the presidential candidate, too, that's how we got into trouble. If we can get our social problem, sort that out together, there is no problem. And that's why I like the question of states or region. If the states can be made to function on their own properly, with less interference or pressure, then we have solution. But, now, we are having more problems by saying, so many local governments, so many states as stakeholders of the federal. That's why we are having problems.
So, you are in support of constitutional review?
Of course, I am. And the type of constitutional review we need is not constitutional review of the people in the parliament now. We should have proper people nominated by the people to go to that conference and discuss the needs of their peoples. What we think of the constitution, on facts, the way forward, the way to run the country.
But, to just say, let the National Assembly review the constitution, you know the problem we are having, how they got there? People are not saying they are the true representatives of their peoples. But, if you really want good government for this country, we really want the good people of all the component parts to come together and re-write the constitution, that's the way forward. Otherwise, you can't get good result.
You are saying the cap-in-hand stance of the state and local governments to the centre is not acceptable. But people are saying the unitary system is a product of the military?
But the military was releasing money to the states. I didn't have any problem when I was governor of the West to develop my state. Otherwise, I wouldn't have stayed three for four years, eight months. Otherwise, they wouldn't have made my son a governor so many years after I had left.
If I hadn't done well, I don't think they would have voted for him.
Maybe because I did well and he is a good son too, they said, 'well, he is as good as his father'. So, if I hadn't done well, I don't think people will actually consider to vote him in.
You identify that one of the major problem with the Yoruba nation is the problem of leadership, for the leaders to come together. Why is it that leaders of Afenifere refuse to work together with the YCE?
That is how it should be. Afenifere, of course, is a cultural organisation while the YCE is supposed to be a non-political organisation. Although politicians are members of the YCE. We discuss politics there, but the kind of politics we discuss is one whose decisions are taken away by the politicians amongst us with the hope that they are acceptable to them and what they can use. So, we are inside members. Afenifere is supposed to be non-political, but unfortunately, they said Afenifere is AD, and AD is Afenifere. Don't forget that AD is a political party.
If they hadn't pronounced openly that AD is Afenifere, that Afenifere is AD publicly, people would have taken their advice more seriously. But when you are mixing the two openly, naturally people wouldn't like to obey. But what I suggest is that YCE, Afenifere, any other cultural organisations to hold meetings regularly and occasionally to discuss the problem of the Yoruba people and the nation, come to agreement, pass it to their political parties to implement.
But, without doing that, it would be difficult to get along, because no party will say, Reuben from NCNC, nobody will say, Tony from Abam, to be leader. So, we need people who love the country genuinely, seriously.
Like Olu Falae recently said that Chief Adesanya nominated Chief Fasoranti as Yoruba leader.
You see, Fasoranti is a first class person, a good man, I like him. He is my good friend. When Adesanya was sick, he could not lead Afenifere again openly, he suggested Fasoranti, next to him, to take over as the acting leader of Afenifere, not the leader of the Yoruba, leader of Afenifere because the only person who was leader of Yoruba was Awolowo.
And I was the one who initiated it, when I was the military governor of the West. The West was in trouble before I got there, and the only way to bring the West together was to, first of all, release Awolowo from prison, which Gowon did, because I was in Gowon's government.
I was a member of the Supreme Military Council. Awolowo was released. Then I called a meeting of all the traditional rulers, elders, former political leaders in the West for a meeting in Ibadan. After we released Awolowo, Awolowo came to that meeting. And Chief Adeniran Ogunsanya of NCNC proposed Awolowo as the leader of the Yorubas, and it was accepted by everybody.
That was how Awolowo became the leader of the Yoruba. And Awolowo stood up that day and said he thanked the Yoruba for accepting him as leader, that he was accepting because of military regime, because that was a military regime.
He knew what he was struggling for and that, sooner than later, politics again would start, and that he would go back to politics and not everybody would be in his political party, and that it was only in military regime that majority would accept him. So, he thanked everybody and he was fine. And when the military left and he contested election, everybody went back to his party.
And what of Ajasin?
Ajasin was one man who we all respected.
Was he Afenifere leader?
Nobody openly appointed him leader, but he assumed this automatically. He was a nice old man, my good friend. I liked him. So, when he died ...(cut in) Adesanya took over as Yoruba leader.
No, NADECO came in then.
Maybe they came in then because it was under military regime like you said ...
Yes, and he was a strong NADECO leader. So, Gen. Abdulsalami Abubakar had to deal with Adesanya who was the leader of NADECO, so as to bring peace and to make sure that election went well. Not as the leader of the Yoruba.
So, what it means is that only Awo had been leader of Yoruba, accepted by all?
Yes, physically and accepted by all.
Some are touting that you should be the Yoruba leader ...
That is why you wanted me to put on my cap, you don't want to see my grey hair?
If you are asked to, would you accept?
In as much as I am not involved with politics. I can't be involved with politics.
Because that question is not settled yet as to who is the Yoruba leader?
There is no need. When you say Yoruba leader, with all respect, even Dr. Azikiwe, was he fully accepted as Igbo leader? We are causing more problem for ourselves within ourselves. For instance, I have always told people, I am a son of Iyin Ekiti, secondly I am a father of Ekiti, thirdly I am elder of Yoruba and fourthly, one of the leaders of Nigeria.
You will take the cap because the cap fits you. You just said when Awolowo emerged as Yoruba leader, you were instrumental to it. You mooted the idea.
Because I was able to use him to achieve peace.
If you are to assume that role today, would you accept?
It depends on who is asking me. There must be people of like minds with me, before they choose me or suggest me as their leader. So, there must be other people of like minds with me to surround me, or be asked to surround me.
Like Afenifere?
What we need are groups to meet regularly to find solutions to problems or to make sure there are no problems. Afenifere has some elders, some other organisations have elders. YCE has so many elders. We come in occasionally and discuss our problems. And even we want to discuss the all-round Nigerian problems. When we choose our team from that group, we get Igbo and get elders there too, south-south, North-west, North-east, the six zones.
We can meet to discuss the problems and find solutions and those solutions can be passed to the National Assembly that this is what we want. But we have to be together before we can pass anything to the National Assembly. Because the National Assembly, they say they want to be oga. They are in charge. But if the elders are together, it will be very difficult for anybody to challenge them.
So, if you are asked, depending on who is asked to surround you, you will accept that responsibility?
It wouldn't be Adebayo alone. Otherwise, there will be no grey hair here, there wouldn't be hair at all. (laughter)
Your son was governor of Ekiti State between 1999 - 2003. How would you assess his performance?
He did his work well, but some people penetrated their party and swept them away. And the replacement they gave then was swept away too. And the candidate, the person that swept him away, has been swept away. So, it is a good thing he did his best for four years. They will remember him for good, and they are remembering the father too.
But some thought he didn't perform?
The! As his father didn't perform too? Don't forget that performing depends on who is assessing. What the governor is getting now is 12 times what Niyi was getting when he was there.
Remember, in the first republic, there was no oil revenue coming to the West then and Awolowo built Cocoa House with cocoa money. You can't compare the resources they had then with what is available now?
Nobody is in the farm again. Look, when Awolowo was there, what we depended on was cocoa. Even with the cocoa money they fought the civil war. They had groundnut pyramids, coal. But nobody wants to go to the farm now. Luckily for Ondo State, it is one of the oil producing states. Ondo is number eight in terms of oil revenue out of 36. So, Ondo State has plenty of money to spend.
General Obasanjo was instrumental to your son's removal from office in the 2003 elections. He agreed with the AD governors, Osoba, etc. to support him for second term while he too will endorse them for second term. They played their own part while he reneged on his. Are you angry with Obasanjo for behaving in that manner?
Obasanjo is a different character. I know him very well. He played his politics, unfortunately, they didn't know him. They played into his hand. Obasanjo was close to Osoba, but Obasanjo disappointed Osoba. And if he was so close to Osoba, he was listening to Osoba and Osoba was telling his colleagues that 'this is our man o!, he is good o!' Naturally, they should support him.
We all agreed, as I said, that Yoruba should vote for him for second term. If we agreed on certain things naturally, he should have agreed for a second term for the other people. So, he shouldn't have disappointed them. It will be very difficult for those boys to forgive him. I can forgive him because I wasn't involved in politics, but, naturally, he shouldn't have done that.
How do you feel that, at a point,
Ekiti State came under state of emergency?
But that is Obasanjo. He put Fayose there, and Fayose disappointed him. Fayose didn't support his third term and he wanted Olurin as administrator. Olurin, an ex-military boy, nice boy too, he worked under me. And he thought Olurin will do well. So when he removed Fayose, his friendship with Fayose finished. He and Fayose are not friends now.
Ekiti people voted against your son, they didn't allow him to come back the second time. Do you bear a grudge against them for that?
No, why should I? That was politics.
You accept that he lost fair and square?
No, I didn't say fair and square. He lost because his party didn't play the politics well. I am not talking about my son, but it happened to be my son that was governor. Their party didn't play their politics well. That was why they lost.
At 80, you are still radiating so much energy. What is the secret, what has kept you going?
As I said before, I thank God for what He has done for me. I thank God for what He has made me. I thank God for what He has got me through. I don't want to go beyond what God has made me. I am a contented person, naturally. I am a happy man. My children are looking after me, they are doing well. I am happy. They are the ones who drove me away from the office. They said I shouldn't work again. 'Why should you work?' I can't sleep on two beds, I can't eat more than three times a day, even the three times is too much. So, it's contentment. If you are contented and you are happy with yourself, and you don't wish bad for any other person, you are happy.
So, when you are gone, how do you want to be remembered?
I am not going yet.
Are you afraid, you don't want to go?
I don't want to go. I am a contented person.
When is your birthday?
I celebrated my birthday last March 12. So, I am a happy person, happy home, happy children, lovely people. I don't see anything wrong in anybody. If you do something wrong, I call you and tell you. I don't hide. I will tell you the truth.
What legacy will you be leaving behind?
Well, one, leaving a good legacy for the country by telling the truth, by doing the best, by helping individuals and groups to get on well like me and my children. And to live a happy and contented life.
In your hey-days, you were a socialite?
Oh yes. If I didn't socialise you wouldn't know me. Before I became the governor of the West, I wasn't known much, because I was a military man. I wouldn't go beyond my military line, but when I became governor, I extended my field. So, I had to bring people on, and the only way to bring them on, is to bring them in or go to them.
We have had over nine years of democratic rule, what can we do to stop the military from coming back to power?
What can we do to stop the civilians?
No, from the military staging a coup? What of the civilians, are they not staging a coup?
No, they argue the issues democratically.
What is democracy?
It is the government of the people, by the people and for the people.
The military can't come, but civilians can go to drive you away.
In a form of revolution?
Of course, look at the money they are 'chopping' everyday. The military, they won't come again. The military are satisfied now, they know the civilians are worse than themselves. But if we continue this way, you can't rule out revolution. The people are hungry, no water, no light, no work and few people are 'chopping' the money, and a lot of money is coming in. And the money is not going down the line, but only getting to a few people. Even the EFCC which wants to do the work, they don't want them to do the work any more.
So, we shouldn't rule out revolution in Nigeria?
Let me tell you, the military won't come back. They are not interested in coming back. Even initially only a few people showed interest in military take-overs but revolution? Don't rule that out!
Be the first to Write a Comment!
Copyright © 2008 Vanguard. All rights reserved. Distributed by AllAfrica Global Media (allAfrica.com). To contact the copyright holder directly for corrections — or for permission to republish or make other authorized use of this material, click here.
AllAfrica aggregates and indexes content from over 125 African news organizations, plus more than 200 other sources, who are responsible for their own reporting and views. Articles and commentaries that identify allAfrica.com as the publisher are produced or commissioned by AllAfrica.
