Mrs Clara Ogunbiyi is a female judge of the Court of Appeal, Lagos division.

In this interview, she speaks about the inertia of women, the National Association of Female Judges in Nigeria (NAWJN), of which she is president, she says, is an arbitrator for women seeking justice against discrimination and violence. Towards this end, NAWJN is to address the recent harassment of one Miss Uzoma Okere by naval ratings in Lagos.

She also spoke about rape, HIV/AIDS, how she felt bad about some death sentences she pronounced and her marriage, amongst others. Ogunbiyi is from a family of eight girls. "Though we are all girls, we have proved our mettle and my father is very proud of us, even though he married other women who gave him male children," she says.

What programme are you holding in Abuja?

We are holding our 9th biennial conference of the National Association of Female Judges in Nigeria, an affiliation of the International Women Association with headquarters in the United States. The association generally is for women, we are not trying to be biased but, as women, we have our own specialities and peculiarities and these were some of the reasons that motivated the inauguration of the association in Nigeria. We cater generally for women's interest, their rights and aim to see that the less privileged, voiceless are assisted as well as children, from the legal point of view. Most times women cannot exercise their rights. Even when they come to court, they cannot be heard. This is what has prompted us to hold workshops from time to time. The workshops do not involve women alone. It also involves our male counterparts in all stages of the judiciary, the Court of Appeal, the judges of the various high courts, customary courts and even the Sharia courts, to ensure that women are given their rights in courts. This is why we incorporate the magistrates, since they work closely with the grassroots. We have a special programme, the jurisprudence of equality, which creates awareness for our male judges to ensure that when women appear before them in the court they should be given their rights and should not be treated as second class citizens.

The culture of silence in the north has continued to militate against women's right. As a female judge how can you assist women?

Not only in the north. Even in the south! It is not only women in the north that are not heard; there are cases even in the south, especially relating to widowhood. A lot of our cultures are very obnoxious. Women are really treated as if they are not human beings especially when their husbands die. They have no right, no property, and they really suffer a lot of humiliation. So it is not only in the north.

When you compare the situation in both regions, would you say the situation is as serious in the south?

I would say women in the north suffer most because of their cultural background, and probably, because of their level of illiteracy. In the south, more women are educated, unlike in the north. Even those who are educated in the north do not come out to fight for their rights. We tend to accept any situation so easily because of cultural or religious background. For instance, we see a lot of domestic violence and ill-treatment in the homes, but she is expected to learn to accommodate whatever her husband does, no matter how much she suffers. There is no doubt that it is more in the north than in the south.

How have you been able to overcome the challenges of your profession?

By the nature of our profession, we are limited to a certain extent. So we work with various NGOs. We encourage them to go to the grassroots and participate actively in associating with women and knowing their problems, which we cannot do because of the nature of our jobs. We also involve people who are interested in women-related issues and cases and also get in touch with some of those in government who we feel will be able to help solve our problems. But, generally, the challenge we face as female judges is the nature of our profession but then we come in to assist when women cases are brought before us. There are some cases where women who are witnesses, because they are not exposed, cannot express themselves properly. So they are discouraged. In such cases, we encourage them to feel that they are part of the system.

What is the female association of judges doing about the case of Miss Uzoma Okere and the naval ratings?

Actually, it is unfortunate, and to the best of my knowledge, no one has contacted us officially. The information that I have I got is from the newspaper. We would not go out deliberately to look for information, but what we do is to wait for the information to get to us, then we would be able to decide on what to do. I expect her to contact us because we feel that there are areas that we could come in. For now, we can do nothing about it because no official report has been made to us.

Why do you have to wait for an official report on the matter? Could it also be that the association is not well known and that is why Okere has not involved you?

You might probably be correct. She may not be aware of the existence of the association. Quite a number of women are not aware that they could get assistance when they come to the association of female judges. She might have contacted some NGOs (maybe). You know, we work hand in hand with some NGOs, but I am not aware that it has been reported to us. This is one of the crucial topics that we intend to discuss at this conference, to find out what has been done, measures that have been taken and decide on what next to do as an association.

The Okere case is a semblance of the type of violence women married to uniform men experience. Have you had such cases to contend with?

I must tell you that female judges are very worried about this situation. We held a workshop, which basically focused on domestic violence which is prevalent in our society today, no doubt. This is another aspect where the cultural background has put hindrance to a lot of measures in trying to curb the menace. You might see some one suffering in her husband's house but when you try to get something out of the woman, she would not be forthcoming. What do you do in that case? There is a lot of responsibility on our part to enlighten the less privileged to see how much we could help our fellow women who do not have a reason to suffer as women. So, most often, when the NGOs have their programmes, we try to slut in our ideas and views to be able to help them. Remember, I said by the nature of our jobs we have a limit, but we do not allow it to inhibit us from carrying out our duties.

Former minister for women affairs proposed life imprisonment for rapists. Do you agree with this?

In all honesty if I have my way, it should not only be life in prison but death sentence because it is a very serious thing. Another problem that we face in this situation is that even with the measures, at the end of the day the proof of the offence is another problem. I think what we need is more than sentencing; we really need something to be done with the legislation concerned. The legislation should not only be put in place but should be seen to be enforced. This is where, again, the government has to come in. Sometimes a lot of lip service is being done and, at the end of the day, women and children suffer. Such acts, are sometimes, perpetuated within the family by either someone related to the family and even the father. Recently, we heard of fathers who slept with their daughters and impregnated them. In this situation, we see culture as a big hindrance because no one wants to report to the police so they would prefer to remain silent and even when neighbours take it upon themselves to report, the commonest question asked is, what is your business? We will need a complete re-orientation for progress to be made in this situation. We advise mothers to ensure that their children are kept safe and that they have to be very careful because those we trust could turn out to be rouges. So we have to be very careful who takes care of our kids.

Nigerians, generally, seem to have lost faith in the judiciary. Do you agree with this?

In any given situation, there would always be a winner and a loser. The loser has, always, complaints to make. To be frank with you, any judge that swears to an oath of office is expected to uphold it. For you to be called a Justice, you are next to God. That is the way I see it. I will not want to believe that a judge will fail to mete out justice deliberately. You must understand that to err is human, but for a judge to deliberately manipulate, I am not saying that it does not happen, but honestly, any judge that is a believer, either a Muslim or a Christian and wants to live up to the tenets of his or her faith, must mete out justice in all circumstances. The legal profession is like any other profession, there are bad eggs. My advice to my colleagues is that whatever they do, their conscience must be clear, because they are not only doing it for themselves but for God and the society.

You have come a long way as a female judge. Was there any form of discrimination against you?

To a certain extent I would say, yes. Generally, the profession is a very interesting one, in the sense that it is not gender-biased. But on one to one basis, you know the male dominant factor will always prevail, no doubt. When I was first appointed to the Borno state bench in1987 some of the initial problems I encountered were with the male lawyers, trying to underrate me and feeling that was not fit for the job. There was one lawyer, of blessed memory, a very difficult lawyer. One day, I had to call him and talk to him. I told him that if I did not know what I was doing I would not be where I was. "You are before this court and I am in control. This is my court and you will do as I say." This was what I told him and that really shook him and all the other people in the court. One thing about this profession is that you should master the law and know what you are doing and you should earn your respect. Make sure you do not leave room for any suspicion or for any one to belittle you and that depends on you and how you handle yourself. Make sure to carry out your responsibility by sitting on time, giving prompt judgement and doing your research properly. With this, no one will underrate you and you will prove to people that you are up to the task.

What was the most difficult case you ever handled?

When I was in the ministry of justice before I was appointed to the bench, one Sunday Effiong , an ex-service man who was involved in a criminal matter and I prosecuted the case. He murdered someone and at the end of the day, he was sentenced to death. I felt it when the judgement was being read. I was convinced he committed the offence; the matter went on to the Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court and the judgement was affirmed. He was executed at the end of the day but I felt it, from the human point of view. The other case was one related to two brothers. I also tried that case; they were convicted and I sentenced them to death. I felt this case also because both of them were brothers from the same parents and both of them were convicted for murder.

What then is your opinion about death penalty?

Death penalty has not served as a deterrent measure. But then, what do we replace it with? That is the question, really. One would have expected quite a number of the crimes in the society to have subsided as a result of death sentence, but you cannot see that really happening. Rather, it is on the increase. I would suggest the better alternative would be life imprisonment and life to mean life.

But prisons are congested?

That is another point. Most of our prisons are congested, but the other thing I would also suggest is that so many people who are in prison today should not really be in prison. They could be given alternatives, parole, like it is done in the western world. Where the offences are not very serious offences, some of the offences are minor offences. Again, quite a number of people in prisons are awaiting trial. This is also a food for thought, that we need to do more by ensuring that cases are brought to court, investigations are carried out by the police and cases are heard with quick dispatch.

So how was growing up for you?

It was very interesting. I am from a family of eight girls. Because of this, my father married other wives, because he needed someone to inherit him. He had sons from the other women. My father is someone whom I very much cherish. Regardless of us being girls, he ensured that he trained all of us. We all went to mission schools in southern Borno, which were expensive, but he made sure that we went there. Our father is now 103-years old. He apologised to my mother and said that if he knew the girls would turn out to be important persons and make him as proud as he is today, he would not have bothered marrying other women, because just one daughter was better than 10 sons put together.

Everything was a bed of roses?

No, things did not work out well. At times, especially within the family; there was a lot of misgivings and misunderstanding. You know, polygamous homes, being what they are, the women, and the children. Generally I get along with all my brothers and sisters, but then, you should expect that there would be skirmishes.

How did you meet your husband?

Incidentally I'm from Southern Borno and my husband is from Kwara state. We met in ABU. He was a medical student while I was doing my diploma in law. After that I went back for my LLB and he was still a student. We met in the school choir.

Was it love at first sight?

Well, not really, definitely not. We were in the same singing group and he asked me if I was a student and I said yes. He asked to visit me. I declined because I had a mindset to marry from my state and tribe. At that time, it was not easy for one to inter marry. I had quite a number of people from my place as suitors but he persisted until I agreed to take him home to my parents. Initially, my sisters were against it because of the cultural differences and background, but my father was very open-minded and said, as long as he is of the same faith and I could cope, there was no problem. We have been married since 1972. My husband is a very liberal person and if I am opportuned to come back in another world I would still marry him.

How did you combine married life and your job?

Initially, it was not easy. When we married, I went back to school and within 9 months of the marriage I had my first baby. That was the end of my first year and by the end of my second year I had my second baby. My mother in-law came to live with me so she could help and I had the support of my husband.