Daily Independent (Lagos)
19 November 2008
interview
DELE ADESINA, a Senior Advocate Of Nigeria (SAN), was a former secretary of the Nigeria Bar Association (NBA).
An insightful commentator on policy and political affairs, Adesina, in this interview with SENIOR CORRESPONDENT DANIEL KANU, says Nigeria has had the problem of trial and error leadership while commending the Judiciary on the Edo verdict as having hope towards deepening democracy.
He examines other issues such as corruption, Vision 2020, Yar'Adua's Seven-point Agenda, Barack Obama's presidency and the problem with Nigeria.
Excerpts:
Let us start with the recent victory of Adams Oshiomhole in Edo election!
Well, you should expect what my reaction should be: it's a welcome development, a very welcome development and, I believe, in a limited way it has demonstrated that a system is evolving that has an inbuilt system or inbuilt mechanism to correct its own mistake in the course of that process. In other words, it's a kind of an assurance that if in the process of democratisation, mistakes are made or fraud(s) are committed, the system itself has an inbuilt mechanism that can right the wrong. So, it has given a hope that all is not lost; it has given a hope that the rule of law, ultimately in this land, is something to be proud of and I believe that it has given us that desired confidence that even though Rome was not built in a day, there is no day Rome was left un-built. So, the victory before the Court of Appeal is a part of that building process in our democracy. I believe, ultimately, we will get there.
Does it really bother you that almost over one year and six months after, there are still some cases in the court including the presidential election?
It bothers me, just as it bothers every right thinking member of the society, and it is not because those that are saddled with the responsibility, for instance, either at the tribunal level or at the Court of Appeal level or at the Supreme Court level, are not doing their best to terminate these cases, it is the system itself that has to be looked into. When I say the system itself, I mean a system that allows somebody whose election is being questioned to be sworn in and be performing the functions and responsibility of an office: with a big question mark to his eligibility. So that is the big question. Now, a good number of the tribunals, if not all, had wound up; decision have been reached one way or the other, and a good number of the cases are now pending before the appellate courts - either that they will terminate at the level of the court of appeal if they are gubernatorial petitions or at the level of the Supreme Court as it affects the presidential electoral petition. But we must look at the law itself that allows a swearing in to take place while the election of the person purportedly elected is being questioned. In America, you are fully aware that the election was held on November 4, the gentleman who won, Senator Barack Obama, will not be sworn-in until the January 20, and even if there is a petition against him, that petition will be dealt with before that date. You will recall the case of Bush and Algore, in year 2000. The United States Supreme Court terminated (the) case before the swearing-in was done. So. if it will take us, and this very important ingredient of our democracy and rule of law too, if you must attain justice the combatants must be at the same level. We say there is equality before the law. That fundamental principle of law is seriously called into question. If somebody is standing there as a governor with all the apparatuses of office, with all the influences of that office and is facing a petitioner who still remains as an ordinary person on the street, they are no longer equal. One, even the resources to fight the case are not the same because immediately you are sworn in, you have access to the resources of the state; and I do know that a good number of them fight this election petitions even with the states money, unlike the petitioner, you (who) have to be looking for money from here and there to pay the lawyers or what have you. So, we have to look at the Electoral Act. We have to create a space of three months or six months.
Whatever period we create, we must adhere to it to provide a time period between the election time and the swearing-in time so that all this election petition can be dealt with before the winners of the election assumes office. There is the need for the people to know whom their leaders are, and there is need for those leaders not only to satisfy acceptance principle but they must also satisfy the legitimacy principle.
Nigeria has clocked 48 years of independence: what is your candid assessment?
I think I have had the privilege of making one or two comments on the 48th anniversary of Nigeria, which was marked on October 1, 2008. To me, as far as democracy and democratisation is concerned, we have started well, there is a hope for the future that tomorrow will be better than today. And that optimism is predicated on the point that democracy itself is not an end, rather a process, many people interpret it to be an end - government of the people, for the people and by the people - that it must be ideal, it must be this and that... No, it is a process. Democracy must translate in the welfare of the people; democracy must translate in their acceptance of people's will, the supremacy of the will of the people. That is why we say the sovereignty resides with the people. The people's vote must count. But when you are talking in terms of the provision of infrastructure, when you are talking in terms of our education system; when you are talking in terms of mobility of people from rural areas to the city, we have not fared enough in these 48 years. That drift ought to have been arrested and by now we should be able to turn our taps and water will come out, by now we should be able to enjoy uninterrupted power supply, by now we should be able to drive on good roads in Nigeria, 48 years after independence.
If two years to 50, we are still driving on bad roads, we are still having epileptic supply of power, we are still having leaders we cannot really say they are tested leaders in the sense of having selfless leaders, leaders who will look at what they want to achieve for the larger society and not for themselves, we are still far behind. The scripture says that a man that cannot provide for his house is worst than an infidel. The house of our leaders is Nigeria and the people that are living there, and it is a known fact to you and I that substantial majority of the Nigerian people are on the street today looking for what to eat. Children that will otherwise be in school are roaming about the streets begging for arms, particularly on the streets of the cities. It should not be so.
What can you pin down as the cause of this problem?
You see, leadership plays a very pivotal role in the development of a nation, because they shape the course that everything should go. If the leadership is right, the followership will be right. If there is no leadership, there can be no followership. If you have leaders in the sense of having committed leaders, focused leaders, pragmatic and practical leaders who have firm knowledge of what they want to achieve for the people and will set about implementing that, which they want to achieve for the people, then there will be growth.
In other words, it will not be a game of trial and error. By and large, in this nation, I think we have been having this trial and error leadership and that is why we are not getting it right. That is why also, like the Yoruba will say, if you take a step forward and two steps backwards, the cumulative effect is a step backward; and that is retrogression. Now, you take, for instance, our educational system in Nigeria today. There was a time in the history of this nation when we could boast that HSC certificate in Nigeria was equivalent of the degree in the U.S.A. But, can we still say the same thing today? Now, you want to ask: what has gone wrong? Is it that we did not have the resources to fund our educational system? I will say - we have the funds, enough funds. But we did not get our priorities right and, again, is it the duty of the followership to get the priorities, right? I will say no, it is that of the leadership. In a country where we now see as a phenomenon, where our leaders prefer to establish their own educational institutions, well funded with more than buildings, first class lecturers over and above public institutions that have gone down the drain, who do you blame? Is it the ordinary man on the street? The answer is no. So, this has to do with selfless leadership.
People will always say don't think of what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country. But are we having a translation of that principle even in our leaders? A leader must show good example. I have just zeroed in on our educational system because that is one of the areas that are really suffering. Today, in this country, you find our young men and women drifting to the U.S.A under the canopy of enjoying Lottery Visa or what ever they call it, migrating from their nation, this country for God's sake is a land of opportunity; but unfortunately, the youth, you and I do not have the opportunity to really exploit this opportunities within here because of the circumstances beyond our control. We prefer to run to the United States of America.
If you get to United States, today, you find somebody who studied medicine in Nigeria or pharmacy, or one other course or the other doing security work or sweeping on the streets of America. I have always said that this idea of lottery or no lottery is a second slavery of the African people. The first slavery they came here to carry us, but this time around we are the ones offering ourselves to them. That's just the difference.
Let's look at President Yar'Adua and his seven-point agenda: can we say that we are on the right track?
(Laughs) You see, the conceptualisation of a policy is one thing, the execution is another. The President's conception is well founded; it can take this country to the next level. But there is still a very big 'but' between conceptions and execution, we are waiting to see execution. The only area where I have seen a marked difference is in the area of human rights. The President has had cause to ensure that the law is supreme, the law forms the basis of what is right and what is wrong not only by the governed but also by the government. In a democracy, rule of law is the beginning and the end of it all, because without rule of law, you don't talk of democracy and without democracy there is no rule of law.
You can't have dictatorship in a democracy. That aspect is a progress.
If you want to use that language, at least, from what we used to have, it's a new experience. But for other concrete agenda that will impact positively on the lives of the people, we are yet to see its execution. The concept of declaring emergency in the power sector, no body can fault that but, we are yet to have that emergency declared and we hope it will be done without any further delay. There is no nation that can survive industrially, using diesel or generator. It's not possible.
Let's look at corruption and the anti-corruption campaigns as it is being handled by the ICPC and the EFCC...
You see, the issue of corruption has become endemic - both in the private and in the public sector. Before the inception of the ICPC and the EFCC people were describing corruption as the fundamental principle of Nigerian policy. Somebody said that corruption has become official in Nigeria. It is no longer officials being corrupt, it has become the case of corruption becoming official in Nigeria. But that was then. But today, at least in Nigeria, there is the fear that you can be get caught either by the ICPC or by the EFCC or by the Special Fraud Unit of the Nigerian Police; that fear itself, to me, is a shift from what it used to be. Whether you like it or not, the greatest deterrent against crime is the fear that you might be caught. If you know that you are likely to be caught and punished, you will not commit an offence. But if you know that you will get away with brazen impunity, you just go ahead and do it. But I believe that nobody can rightly say that it's still business as usual in Nigeria today. To that extent, the fear of ICPC or the EFCC is gradually becoming the beginning of wisdom.
So, there is a shift and a positive one for that matter. As to whether it's being rightly fought or not, I don't see what is wrong in the way it's being fought even presently. I think the problem most Nigerians have is their refusal to concede that individuals have the right to choose their own methodology or modus operandi of doing things.
Again, in most cases, Nigerians want to eat their cake and have it. The same Nigerian that is insisting on having democracy, an ideal democracy where the rule of law will prevail; where there should be no room for dictatorship or tyranny or arbitrary action, is the same Nigerian that wants the EFCC to barge into your house, bundle you, carry you to their office, lock you up for one month, two months, etc., until they complete their investigation before they then decide to charge you to court or not. That's the contradiction that I am talking about. I believe that it is better, and that is what the law even says, that you don't need to arrest somebody before you begin to fish out for information under the canopies of conducting an investigation to decide whether it's somebody to be detained or its not somebody to be charged. The law expects you to have done your investigation. For God's sake, you can investigate somebody without him or her knowing. One month, two months, three months, six months even if it takes you a year to investigate somebody and the totality of his operations, you can do it without him knowing and by the time you get your information right and you get to a point where you can make a decision that yes an offence has been committed, you pick up the person, interview him, get his own side of the story, get the statement and within 24 hours you charge him to court, that is what the law says, which I think is what the EFCC is trying to do.
I don't see anything wrong in that as a lawyer. That is what ICPC has been doing and ICPC is headed by a retired Justice of the Supreme Court, and because ICPC is doing it that way, people are thinking that ICPC was not working in terms of comparative analysis, with EFCC at that time. I think these are the areas we have to really settle in our mind what we want. There is a principle of law that says, it is better for 11 criminals to get away than for one innocent person to be wrongfully convicted. So, having a painstaking procedure of investigation before you eventually take on somebody and charge him to court is better than when you arrest before you begin to fish for arrest or facts to justify your charging somebody to court.
In January, Barrack Obama will be sworn-in as President of the United States: are we expecting a foreign policy shift to Africa?
Whatever I say here is a personal opinion because I am not one of his policy makers. I doubt much if there is going to be a policy change. You see, the foreign policy of America is well known to everybody - it's definite and it is certain. The presidency does not decide it alone. So, fundamentally, the question is what is the interest of America in this issue? And you will discover that in most cases whether Republican or Democrats. Democrats may be more amenable to people's wishes, to compromise, to co-operation and what have you. But you are not likely to experience a very dramatic and radical change in the policy of America to Africa just because an African-American is the president. This is one of the things that people are looking at in concluding that the young man will be under severe pressure. Just like you have asked this question now, it presupposes that you expect a shift and, it's also possible that many Africans are in the same position. But the man too will want to say - I am the President of America and not the president of African-America. Just like he said during his acceptance speech: he is the president of those who voted for him, of those who did not vote for him, those in the Democrats, those in the Republican and those who did not even belong in any of the parties, including independent candidates.
So, I am not particularly optimistic that there is going to be a radical change in foreign policy towards Africa, but in terms of the economy, in terms of conciliatory foreign policy, if what Clinton did serves as an example, the Democrats are usually more conciliatory, we may not witness another war but one is hopeful that his coming into America will make America better and make the world a better place for all of us - whether as a blackman or as a white man.
Let's look at Vision 2020 that Nigeria is working towards. What do you think ought to be done, if if we must get it right?
This is not the first time we will have this type of a programme. Before, it was year 2010, and when they discovered that 2010 was no longer realisable, they now put it at 2020. But the question is, the fundamental elements that will make that (vision) 2020 possible are not there. For example, we are unable to solve the issue of power because it touches on everything - it is the pillar, it is the foundation of it all. If you are unable to solve the problem of power generation and power distribution in this country, you don't talk of vision 2020. How many manufacturers now are producing? How many of our youth are getting gainful employment? And yet, every year we turn our people in their hundreds and thousands into the unemployment market. So, we are not doing anything to drastically reduce unemployment. I don't know how feasible 2020 will be.
Also the issue of diversification, this monolithic economy that we are running, I don't know what practical steps that we are taking. This is not an institutional critique of vision 2020. The vision is well thought of, again, that brings me back to what I said when we started that there is a wide difference between conception and execution.
Conception of an idea does not translate into success; it is the execution of that idea.
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