The Weekly Observer (Kampala)
Edris Kiggundu
19 November 2008
interview
Government's willingness to fight corruption once again came into doubt after President Museveni ordered NRM MPs to use their numerical strength in Parliament to block the looming censure of ministers; Amama Mbabazi and Dr. Ezra Suruma for their role in a land deal with the NSSF. DR. JAMES NSABA BUTURO, the Minister of Ethics and Integrity, believes that his cabinet colleagues did nothing wrong, but told EDRIS KIGGUNDU that his ministry has nevertheless not been effective in fighting graft.
How do you justify the position that Cabinet and Parliament took as regards the NSSF-Temangalo saga?
The background to all the corruption cases real and imaginary cases is public perception that things are terribly wrong. So any time an allegation comes up, it finds a people who are already charged--people who are already angry. People feel that more needs to be done. Even where you have cases that are not genuine, the public has already made up its mind. That [is a] dangerous situation government needs to do something about.
This issue of NSSF and Temangalo had several dimensions. This is not the first time NSSF has been involved in controversy. Remember the Nsimbe Estate saga. There were arrests and a minister [Bakoko Bakoru] had to flee. Therefore, anything to do with NSSF whether real or not, there is this background and it leads people to imagine that corruption is taking place. When this matter came up, it found room within the NRM Caucus. But the moment they brought it to the caucus which pronounced itself, it took on a political dimension. At this point it became a political matter. But if the IGG had been called in earlier, may be Parliament would never have had a say the way it did. Cabinet would never have discussed it the way it did.
When it became political, the divisions came into existence. Cabinet took up the matter; we discussed it and took a position [to depend] on the outcome of the investigations. Sadly, two reports came out. The major report accused the two of influence peddling and conflict of interest. That is where things started going wrong. There are those who thought that Parliament could go ahead and punish the ministers on account of the findings of the main report, while others believed that Parliament had no powers to enforce the Leadership Code. In our laws, matters to do with conflict of interest can only be handled by the IGG.
Taxpayers' money was wasted on a two month-investigation, whose findings NRM was quick to quash ?
I know there were lots of sentiments. Some of them were personal.
Revelations by some witnesses indicated the ministers were culpable: We govern by the rule of law, remember, and that is why some cases are dragging on in the courts of law. Clearly on the basis of what was said...some said there was conflict of interest, some did not see it. When there is such contestation you allow the necessary agencies to take up the matter. That should have been the logical conclusion of the matter. We did not go this far because some of our colleagues from the opposition walked out which, is deplorable behaviour. When you quarrel with your spouse, you do not abandon the home.
They did not want to be part of a decision to absolve Mbabazi and Suruma: Members of the opposition cannot have their cake and eat it at the same time. We are talking about a multiparty system. NRM MPs met before debate because the matter had taken on a political dimension. Everything we did was in accordance with the law.
Why should anybody believe the rhetoric that there is political will to fight graft?
The political will is there. But what is political will anyway? Everything must be done within the ambit of the law. I think what the public wants is for us to put on firing squad people implicated in corruption without doing investigations.
Government cites some institutions as a sign of commitment to fight corruption, but these are often influenced by the executive?
They are not influenced. But some individuals within the institutions tend to be compromised. There is a lot of networking which goes on, you scratch my back I scratch yours. This is one of the complications that we have and we must be honest about it. When you assign some work, there is a lot of collaboration that goes on. It is complex. But government on its own, without support of other critical players like the media and so on, will not be successful in the fight against corruption.
How would you rate Uganda now in terms of the prevalence of corruption?
What has happened is that liberalization of the media has brought about proliferation of radio stations and newspapers. So many cases are now coming to light. Some of them are genuine, some of them are not. The problem here is that the source of information is diverse and some of our people believe what they read and what they hear. Transparency International and other international agencies depend, for their judgment, on public perception and media reports. If media reports are negative, that is why you see our ranking keeps going up and down. Ugandans need to remember that they have got to be patriotic not to conceal corruption but be careful when they are passing judgement, otherwise you are going to have a very serious situation.
Miria Matembe, former minister of ethics, says that corruption is getting out of hand.
I do not agree with my former colleague that there is no political will to fight corruption. Yes, corrupt elements are there. But as a minister I cannot rid the country of corruption alone. I do not operate in isolation. I depend on the media, Police and other agencies. What we need now is a crucial mass of people who are determined to fight corruption.
She claims that even during her time she would investigate corruption cases among high officials but the President would sit on the files: I think this is dramatisation. I do not believe that if you have information and you pass it on to the President, he will sit on it. He is very tough but you must have evidence because if you must rule by the law, that is what you need.
A couple of months back you talked of shaming individuals who use the services of prostitutes. What happened?
First of all, there is so much happening. But also we are not strong on the ground in terms of staffing. Recruitment has started and by end of year we hope to be at full capacity. After I made that statement we went and researched how widespread prostitution is in the country and what methods are involved. This work is going on.
What would you say are your achievements since you took office?
I think the process of change takes a long time. We are talking about convincing people to do things in the way they should be done. We are talking about a nation accepting that it has values, it has to move together. Two years is too little a time. I have pushed through some of the major laws we have and others are in the pipeline.
What about the major hindrances to your work?
First of all, convincing people that we all lose because of corruption is not easy. My view is that corruption is not a political matter. It is hurting all of us and we need to pull together.
Final word?
Yes, there is corruption but let's not make conclusions about every case reported in the media. We need to be very careful. The perception that government is not interested in fighting corruption is wrong. All of us are interested in fighting corruption but within our midst, we have people who have chosen the path of stealing public resources. But we all need to join hands to fight this evil.
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