Those who may think that Edo State Governor, Comrade Adams Oshiomhole has lost his trademark, by the mere fact of his present office, or is likely to do so soon, may have a shocker coming. If his words did not say enough, the sparks in his eyes were unmistakable as he swayed gently in his seat, in a simple T-shirt and trousers, while fielding questions to his visitors, penultimate Saturday. His mien seemed to indicate enough warning to would-be scavengers, who might want to feast on his government, to steer clear of the state. Indeed, the archetypal labour leader, has since started to show that he means business, with the resolve to introduce some radical changes to governance. He has since begun with himself. No sirens and obtrusive security restrictions. In fact, the new rule is that he must be allowed to be at pace with those that matter - the electorate. He also plans to banish godfatherism and mediocrity in governance and more, all in a package, he calls his pact with the people. He shared this and other issues in this interview with Editor, Ikechukwu Amaechi and Group Politics Editor, Sunny Igboanugo in Benin.

Excerpts:

What was it like, fighting from the outside for 18 months to regain your mandate?

Eighteen months was after the election. But the real fight was before the election because you have to sustain your campaign with extremely lean resources compared to your opponent who had the backing of both the federal and state government; financially, in terms of security and politically. But I think I had what they didn't have; they didn't have credibility. The public saw them more as the problem and we had a message that was very clear and the messenger that was trusted. So that made our campaign very interesting and exciting. We went to a number of communities where my opponents had never visited before, because traditionally they don't even rely on votes; they rely on rigging and before the election, they already know that they are going to win, quote and unquote.

So we had a very exciting campaign. It was fun, even though it was tedious. And I learnt so many things in the process. After the rigging and the announcement by INEC, of course, the reaction of the people instantly reassured me that they were not scared by what happened and that they were ready to stand if I was willing to provide leadership. And I made up my mind that this was a battle that had to be fought. My burden was also made easier by the enormous goodwill, which I had enjoyed from people across the country, incidentally including PDP people outside Edo State, North, South, East, and West; within the professionals, businessmen and very ordinary people. My business therefore was to constantly reassure them that we were on and that we had not given up and would not give up. And in particular after they made effort to induce me to surrender by trying to monetise the mandate and I refused, our people became even more excited; because in the past, PDP's trick could be fairly simple; they rig you out, you complain and they tell you 'Oh boy you know we are here, there is nothing you can do, your best bet is we will look after you, so join us.' And then you join and then they give you some money, quote and unquote to compensate you and then they find a job for you. And Ogbemudia tried to play that trick; Dr. Samuel Ogbemudia. But I told him point blank that I didn't enter the race because I needed money to complete my father's family house, and therefore, the issue of monetising does not count. The thing was that they killed many people. They murdered people in cold blood just to send a message that to vote for candidate other than PDP could be a life-threatening affair. And I said the blood of those guys would never be allowed to be shed in vain. Even though that we can't bring them back to life, but we can fight the ideal that they died for. I think from there, the tune was clear and Edo people were excited that for once someone was ready to stand up and be counted and I am happy that it ended well.

How much were you offered?

They said I should just tell them the cost of whatever I incurred. They spent billions; so by their own experience, they imagined what I spent. Of course I didn't spend as much as they did because they spent money to buy security agencies, INEC officials both in Abuja and Benin. They spent money to buy returning officers, the local police and even the Abuja police; they spent money for all sorts of things as well as spent money to hire thugs and to buy the thugs weapons; as well as spent money on some traditional rulers who allowed their palaces to be used for rigging and all kinds of things like that. I didn't need to do that. So, they were ready to spend good money but the issue is that I wasn't even ready to negotiate.

Are you saying that there was no point within this period that it ever occurred to you that you should let this thing go?

No, no, no! in fact I made up my mind that if the case didn't go in our favour we also had our set of plans. We cannot give up on Nigeria until we fix it. The more obstacles they placed on my way the more determined I was and the more I realised that there was so much work to be done. In the morning of that day, before the judgment, I sent a text message to some of my friends telling them that whichever way this thing goes, we must not be discouraged; we must sustain the struggle.

If you had lost, what would have been your fall back position; what would you have done?

Oh! We would have continued to engage the system. The only thing I can't say, all of those people who trooped out jubilating, I am not sure that anybody would have been able to hold them down. That is not due to anything I had planned. But on my own part, I was going to make a statement that I will dedicate the rest of my life to the struggle to fix this country and to engage those who are determined to pull us back. And I will throw every little influence I had to energise those who are willing to be mobilised for that struggle.

Some critics insists that it was nemesis that caught up with you; that in 2003 when the elections were also massively rigged, instead of mobilising the workers that you were leading to fight the same injustice you were fighting, you came out to say that you were not going to use Nigeria to fight anybody's cause. Did you regret ever saying that?

No, I didn't say I would not use Nigerians to fight anybody's cause; I said I believe that some of those who were returned as governors could not have been so returned if the elections were not massively rigged. But I recognised that the way things were, being the very first election after our return to democracy that I was worried about the very limited options that were open; return to the military era, what would that portend? I then said we encourage those who felt aggrieved to go to court and I said NLC would offer to stand as witnesses in those areas where we have evidence. And what I have done when I was cheated out was to do exactly what I advised people to do in 2003, I went to court.

Some people believe that with what you have achieved because of your enormous goodwill, all eyes are on you to give back to those who made it possible. How are you going to manage this?

Well, I do appreciate that; I am a very hardened person, not given to emotion most of the time. But when I saw the sea of heads, when I saw the reaction, the excitement of some people, I told my wife this is something extraordinary. One was extremely humbled by this level of support and we immediately realised that the people believe that we will make a difference and therefore we have to make a difference. I have made this point from the very beginning that I came into the race, not because people called on me to do so. I'm not a reluctant governor; I made up my mind that I will make a difference if I have the opportunity and I am going to make a difference. When people asked me to contest for presidency, I said I was not ready for it, because I would be the last person to do anything simply because people asked me to do it. I want to do something because I believe I can do it and I also reasonably believe that it is doable. So, I am here not under an illusion that we have an easy task to achieve, but I am here with confidence that we can and we will make a difference. What does it take to make a difference? Be clear. You should have a clear vision and you need the support of the people. The support is already there. I don't have to use TV adverts or galvanise sponsored solidarity visits and all sorts of fake manipulation of public opinion to be seen to be accepted. That the people have made a very clear statement and I don't have to worry about that. That in a sense reduces my burden by more than 80 per cent. What is required now is for me to give effect to all of these promises that we made and I know that there is no policy we are going to put in place, which is people-oriented and driven that the people will not readily buy into. The typical suspicion that exists between the governed and the government does not exist in my own case. They believe me, they trust me, not on the basis of manipulation of public opinion, they trust me on the basis of my pedigree. And in seeking this office, my immediate family members were worried that given the benefit they enjoy just introducing themselves as either the wife of Oshiomhole or the children of Oshiomhole, the kind of support they get, they do not want me to jeopardise it. I promised them that I was going to build on that. What it takes to please Nigerians is so little; they want to see some cosistency, commitment and exemplary leadership. They want to see a leader who appreciates that he is not leading because he has all the wisdom; they want to see someone that can still relate with them, one that reminds them that we are all ordinary human beings. They are not responsibilities that I am a stranger to; I can even tell you that the challenges we faced at the NLC were probably far more than the one of a governor. When I assumed the office of the president of NLC in 1999; don't forget NLC had been battered by the military, and I remember one professor, now the Vice Chancellor of Bayero University, and a former President of ASUU, at a seminar in Lagos wrote off the movement, and I said no you are wrong. The failure of one leadership or even a set of leaderships does not tell you anything about the character of the organisation; because there are a lot silent people there who have not had the opportunity. So, eight years later, I think Nigerians are almost unanimous that we were able to reposition the NLC. Even though NLC is not partisan, but all the media, public commentators were unanimous that we became the only viable opposition to Obasanjo's government; and we did it to a point that even Obasanjo said I was behaving like alternative President and we were running the NLC like alternative government.

To fix Edo State if you ask me is not too challenging. Yes, you will never have all the resources you need to do all the things that you would have wished to do, but you will be judged by the opportunities that would be available. If I have N10 instead of N20, and I let the people know I have N10 and they can see how that money was used, they will judge me on the basis of what was available. In the NLC, unlike in politics, those who elected you must speak with them at least twice a year to account for what you are doing. And you don't have police protection, you don't have any immunity; unlike in government where everybody that is going to work in Edo State Government will be hired by me and they will hold office at my pleasure. In the NLC, I was working with colleagues, who were not hired by me, but were also elected by the same people that elected me; and my responsibility was to motivate them and work along with them. Whereas they could fire me I could not fire them. So, If I passed through that for eight years; and even before then, I was in the textile union, where the roles are similar, even though not as challenging, I think there is nothing new in Edo State that I wouldn't be able to accomplish.

There are some people who believe that if not for the internal crisis in Edo PDP, you may not have won your case. What would be your response to that?

Those are the people who believe that the judiciary is under the control of the ruling PDP, but I don't think the judiciary is under the control of the PDP. When I went to court, people told me how can I win and I said I believe I could win based on the weight of evidence that we had. And more importantly, I do know that whereas President Olusegun Obasanjo and Maurice Iwu, who rigged me out controlled the INEC, but they did not control the judiciary. I said so, not once, not twice. And remember, by the time we won at the election petition tribunal on March 20, the PDP was intact; they were not as divided as they probably are today.

What agreement did you reach with the likes of Anthony Anenih?

The only agreement I have is with the people of Edo State and it includes the following; that I am opposed to godfatherism because it is inconsistent with democratic principles. Two, that I did not need godfathers, because what is required in a democracy is God-inspired people. I didn't say so in hush tones, I made it a subject of electioneering campaign. I actually produced billboards, some of which you could still find, even though PDP people pulled them down, to say 'Say No to Godfatherism.' There is nobody else in this state that I cannot look to the eye and say no for what I believe is wrong or say yes for what I have made up my mind to do. So, I respect our elders because I grew up to respect elders; my father tells me whoever wants to grow old must respect elders, but he also tells me that elders must recognise the rights of the young to grow and even to grow bigger, than themselves. So, I will give due respect to all those people you mentioned as elders our state; they are truly elders; but the governance of Edo Sate is in the hands of Adams Oshiomhole as of today and I will not share these powers with anybody. I will guide them very jealously.

But you are not going to be everywhere at the same time, you have to rely on people to carry out some of these ideas you are talking about; and some of them do not have the same level of conviction on governance that you have. How do you intend to manage them to be able to realise your goals?

These are excuses we make for our rulers; because that your school is the one that would says the ruler is good, the president is good, the governor is good, but the problem is with his advisers. Will the advisers impose on me? The beauty of the presidential system is that you make your decisions. If you decide, depending on how you come to the office, to hand over these responsibilities to those who rigged you in, it is your choice. But because I am not a product of rigging, I was put there by the people, I emphasise to everybody, including those in AC and Labour Party that they are at liberty to make any suggestions; just like any other person in Edo State. But, the decision rests with me and I will not negotiate it, because to drive changes, you need to be bold and courageous and clear.

So, in my first meeting with my political party, I told them that party loyalty is important, loyalty to me is important, but party loyalty and loyalty to the governor is not enough. The first loyalty, which is none negotiable, is loyalty to the people of Edo State. If you are not sure that you can function in a regime that is based on bottom-up approach, don't come in. I have also said that what I need are competent people; if they are politicians; that may be added advantage. But if you are a good politician who delivered your local government but you do not have the requisite qualification and experience and skill that Edo State Government needs to drive the changes that we have committed ourselves to, we will not give you a chance. I think that is clear to everybody now and it will become clearer when we have put in place the state executive council. But what I have seen, which I can share with you; check it out, is how the people react whether it is the mass of the people or those immediately around you, depends on the signal you send to them.

Now, the first people I have come into contact with since I assumed office are my security details. Before now, they had a governor who was so terrified that he could not wind down his car windows, nor would he have a handshake with the people, nor would he go in the public place and hug anyone; and of course the security will block you at the rear, by the sides and in front. And when they drive on the highway, they drive at the highest speed and blow the siren to scare away everybody. I called them here and said, 'hey! You know something? The people out there brought me here, and you were not with us then; I went round the state and nobody attacked me. You can't say now that you love me more than those people. So don't block me when I want to talk to people; and don't block people who want to have a handshake. And don't tell me I cannot wind down my glass. I have to because that is the power we use. And when you drive on the highway you must obey speed limits, because you the police taught us about dangerous driving. You cannot engage in dangerous driving because the governor is the passenger; and I said you must not use the siren because you are not driving an ambulance and you are not a fire fighter.' And once I have said that, everybody cued into it. They tried it one or two times, when they forgot and I said, 'remember this is Oshiohmole.' You know security would tell me that you are no longer Oshiomhole and told them I am myself; In any case you can't love me more than these people.

And I told them also you don't wear your uniform and stand behind me when I am making a speech; because I have travelled extensively and I have not seen world leaders; the most powerful president on earth is the President of the United States, and I don't think I have seen a military person or policeman in uniform by his side. Yet the man is well secured. I said you have to device other ways. This idea of standing by me to show that I have power; God has given me power, I don't have to over blow it. Lets concentrate on the real thing."

But I have also told our followers; thank you for the support, but now allow me to work. If you keep clapping I wouldn't have time for the real task, enough of the celebration, allow me to work. And I can see that people are cuing in.

What role did ex-governor Lucky Igbenedion play in your campaign?

He played no role. He did say that AC was an air condition without compressor and publicly he had raised Osunbor's hand and your paper used the photograph; and said that Osunbor would be his worthy successor. At a fund-raising dinner held for Osunbor, he not only donated public funds to support Osunbor but ordered local governments to contribute from local government resources, about N10 million each to support Osunbor's campaign. But Osunbor, when they had difficulties and during this crisis of legitimacy tried to divert people's attention, that Igenedion is my supporter. That is bunkum.

There is a general impression that in eight years that Igbinedion was in power, he didn't lift the state up. What do you think went wrong and that he went that way?

This not a fair question because I was not in PDP; I don't know how they run their government or the party, by then I was handling the national assignment as the President of the NLC. So you cannot ask me why Igbinedion perform the way he did; that you should ask the PDP people. You cannot ask me to tell you why another person did not perform. I will rather tell you what I will do differently to perform and I think I have addressed this. If you look at the campaign drive, Osunbor could not open his mouth to criticise Igbinedion; he could not but I did. If anything, Osunbor was always saying he would continue from where Lucky Igbinedion stopped, because according to him, government is a continuous process. But my problem is that even media leaders like you don't hold him to that statement. And then you take what he is saying as if you don't have memory of what he had said before. What the media do elsewhere is when a political leader makes a statement; they go and reproduce a statement they had made elsewhere, particularly when they want to mislead the public. That is the way politicians would try to be careful, just like you asked me what I said in 2003 and I recalled it. Ask Osunbor what he said when Igbinedion raised his hand at Urukputa hall and what he did with the money donated to him by Chief Lucky Igbendion at Saidi Hotel. So it is very irritating when you allow people to eat from both sides of their mouth and you don't problematise it.

Recently, you visited the president as one of your first assignments. Some people found that inconsistence with your character. What actually was the import of that visit?

How can anybody say it is inconsistent with my character? What is my character?

During the visit you pledged your loyalty. People are wondering what loyalty. Was there any need for that visit given the fact that your party AC is also challenging the same process that brought Mr. President to power in court? Does that not amount to double standard to pledge loyalty to man that your party allege came into power through the same process that Osunbor came?

Well, Good question. President Yar'Adua is president of Nigeria, he is not president of the PDP and Edo State is part of Nigeria. I went to reassure him that coming from a different party does not mean that I will use the instrument of office in Edo State to undermine the peace and stability of Nigeria. The whole concept of plural society does not mean if you come from a different political party, you should not cooperate with the federal executive; because under the Nigerian Constitution, the President has certain responsibilities in certain matters, which the federal government has exclusive jurisdiction. In those areas, Edo State must be able to get any benefit that is due to it. I will not become too confrontational as to deny myself the possibility of attracting federal support, or if you like even federal sympathy, so that Edo State can get any of those things that are within the discretion of the President.

The challenge of governing Edo State, is not to go and confront the federal executive. No. It is to use my office to get the best that is possible for our state. So, if I have to pledge to the President to look with some favour towards Edo State, I will not see it as inconsistent. Here in Edo State, all the local governments are currently under the control of the PDP, all local government chairmen. The way I went to Abuja to assure the President of my loyalty and to ask for his support and he gave me what I can describe as an open cheque, saying you identify those areas where Federal Government can help, we will give you support; because I believe you can make it and you will make a different. Here in Edo state, all the local government chairmen who are under the control of the PDP came here to pledge their loyalty to me and to pledge their support and resolve to work and to collaborate with me so that together we can uplift this state. Just Yesterday, all the members of the National Assembly, Senators and honorable members of the House of Representatives, they came here and to say Adams, we will extend our hands of fellowship to you, we will work with you, we will ensure that whatever Edo State is supposed to get from Federal Government that you will get it. I was excited. I think the problem is yours, because you have assumed that my mandate is to confront the Federal Government. That is not my mandate. Even when Osunbor was here, as illegal as his government was, on one or two occasions, when I met him or his agents in a public forum, I had to, with all the pains that go with it, address him as the governor of the state because he was the governor at that time. But, till the law, through a competent court voided his election and now he cannot be referred to as anybody who was elected a governor here, because in law, he was never a governor of Edo State, I had to live with it.

It is said that over 95 per cent of political office holders from the state House of Assembly to the national assembly are members of the other political party, how do you intend to engage them?

I have just told you now how we have engaged. It is no longer futuristic; is here. The reality is here. I have told you we had a meeting with the local government, that they are very excited to work with me. In fact they have even confessed to me how Osunbor used to deduct money that belonged to local governments and they could not talk. And I told them I am here to set them free. They are entitled to their money. I reminded that when I was President of the NLC, I joined ALGON in denouncing the Federal Government and the state governments for spending local government money on behalf of the local government. Procuring vehicles for them, deducting money and making them to sign cheques that they did not receive; so, as the steward here I will give effect to that; and they were excited. As of today, I don't know, by the time the Court of Appeal finishes its consideration for the appeals, the situation would have changed or at least, so one hopes. As of now we have only one-third of the House, but the entire House came with their Speaker and they pledged to their commitment to collaborate with the executive so that together we can uplift the state. There is no one in this state who is happy with the state of affairs, therefore we cannot afford to downplay the big picture in other to salvage the other little issues of party differences. What is constant is our citizenship, party membership can change and for many people it has changed. Today's leader of PDP, Vincent Ogbulafor came from ANPP. Even nationality can change. There are people who abandon their nationality and take up foreign nationalities.

But this is also the problem. If you are a member of the PDP and you believe in the ideology of the party, why go join ANPP?

Well, that is a viable area to debate and there is a lot of truth in what you have said, but that one can also be exaggerated; after all, we have just seen a General Powel, an American Conservative, Republican Secretary of States publicly declaring support for a Democratic Party candidate. In Britain I have forgotten the name of the minister who left the Liberal Party to join the Labour party during the tenure of Tony Blair. I don't think it is strange that people can move from one party to the other or give support across party line. Of course, this is not to say that one does not recognise the poverty of our political parties that are bereft of any set of ideas. In fact, if you subject the word political party to serious scrutiny, you realise that we have to look for another name to call our political parties because they would not be qualified to be so-called.

You were reported to have opposed the membership of the appeal court panel and people say that was why it took them so long to reconstitute the new panel. Was it true that you were very uncomfortable with the membership of the appeal court panel that could have tried your case; and if it were so, do you feel justified by the verdict of the tribunal?

What was the membership?

That you did not want Mrs. Odili in the panel?

That is not true at all; I think that a very important media like yours should not indulge in such a beer parlour speculation. I have never heard this from anybody. The power to constitute a panel is in the hands of the president of the court. He constituted the lower court as well as the appeal court; and the membership of a tribunal is not a secret matter. When a tribunal is constituted the membership is announced. I have never heard this before; you are the person peddling this rumour to the best of my knowledge.

But it is there in the public domain?

No, no, no, this is Independent rumour, because I have never heard it from any other place. And you must put it in my answer, I don't want it edited out.

We are not saying it is true that you opposed...

From where?

It is out there in the open...

How come it is not in any paper? May be after some people had had a second bottle of beer and were waiting for the third and in the process deregulated their tongues. I have lot of respect for Justice Odili. I could not have possibly oppose her membership. My attitude is, and I have said this publicly, that once you submit to the judicial process, you must recognise that you must allow the process to run itself. When people ask me how do I feel about the delay, and some people were getting increasingly angry; I said to them, once I submit to the judicial process, I knew I have lost control over the speed; the judiciary must operate on their own terms. I cannot influence it, I cannot speed it up.

At your inauguration, you preached reconciliation. You said vengeance should be left to God. But, now you also told us all the injustices that were meted out to you including many people you said were killed. How can you preach reconciliation in the face of these alleged atrocities?

We preach reconciliation because if you appreciate the amount of harassment, intimidation, blackmail that were unleashed on my supporters, you would readily understand why many people would want to immediately begin to carry out retaliation once we had prevailed. In Okpoji, one of the small communities in Edo central, I had a rally there and a PDP chieftain ordered the burning of the vehicle that was used to bring canopies for the rally. They beat up our local chairman there and they almost made him blind. They burnt down the jeep of one of our candidates to the state House of Assembly. Even my own vehicle was destroyed by some PDP thugs. In Benin here they killed three young men once they their local INEC returning officer told them that everybody there was voting for AC, they had to kill those people. I went to sympathise with the parents. One then was just a fresh graduate from Ambrose Ali University.

Now, it was important that I pleaded with them not to receive the temptation of vengeance. First because that will divert and distract us; a bitter mind cannot be a creative mind and the challenges that we have set for ourselves require that we should be as creative as possible. We must devote all our times and energies to address those things that will benefit the greatest number. If we should spend our time trying to remember those who did this or that to us, we would have lost some days. But, I also said, however, those who killed, the law must take its cause. We have the police to investigate because people have information. They know the guys who carried out the killing. They know the person who drove the vehicle. They know the vehicle that was used by the thugs that carried out the killing and it is only fair that we bring them to justice. Reconciliation, forgiveness does not mean that those who kill should be allowed to walk away. That would not be justice. If I decide to call some of my supporters and say ok, XYZ, who beat us up last time, who burn down our vehicle, go and burn down their vehicles; of course they will go and do it. As of today, by the grace of God, I am the chief security officer of the state; if I give such an instruction or they think that I will be happy if they do such a thing, they will go and do it. But, it is true that we had some pockets of protests or harassments by our people in one of the local governments; immediately we sent our people there to say no; because they went to block the local government chairman from going to the office on the ground that the man was not elected by the people, because his election were massively rigged. Everybody knows that, I criticised it because there was really no election; but however, for now they are there, the law does not allow us, even when we believe that the man rigged his way to office; to go and physically remove him. If the law allowed us to do that, we could have physically removed Osunbor, because we had the numbers. If I had told Edo people, that is Osunbor, go to government house and remove him, all the police in Edo State cannot stop them. So, I said if I didn't use physical force to chase Osunbor out of office, you cannot use physical force to chase away your local government chairman and they listened and there is peace there. So that appeal against vengeance was extremely important, otherwise when the oppressed becomes the new oppressor you even imagine what it could be.

You once led a labour delegation to a major protest in Enugu, at which they carried a mock coffin of the then governor. Now that you are governor, would you condone such a protest?

Even now I am still protesting because I am not satisfied with the way Nigeria is. I think we can do better than we are doing and I feel strongly about the things that I say, because 98 per cent of the times, they are not written speeches. They come from my heart and they reflect my thoughts on a whole range of issues. Being a governor, I was not protesting because I didn't have chance to be a governor, therefore my bitterness has not dissolved by the reasons of the fact that I have been proclaimed a governor. The only thing that has offered me is the opportunity to translate, in Edo State some of those things that I have been talking about. But, my general pain about the way in which our country has been mismanaged over the years; the paradox of a rich country with an impoverished population, is still something that is provoking in my heart. And even today in one or two public places that I attended, I found myself still speaking as if I was not the governor.

What they did in Enugu, I will not do it here; because you have some people who think that the worker is a burden. I was present in a forum at a National Institute of Policy and Strategic Studies, over 10 years ago and a minister of the federal republic said part of the reason for unemployment is the proliferation of universities. He believed that universities have expanded too fast and that we are producing more graduates than the economy can absorb. So, when a minister sees human being as a burden rather than an asset, then you tell me the kind of policies that he can possibly put in place. Here in Edo State, we see the people as our most important asset.

How do you think the problem of electoral fraud could be solved in Nigeria?

We need a statesman as President; any law that we are going to make, any rules, legislative framework; if we have a petty politician as president, so petty that he cannot see beyond his political party, Nigeria can never make it. We need a President, who will give the correct instruction to the commissioner of police and the electoral officers. Iwu, as bad as he is, if Obasanjo had told him, look I just want a free and fair election and I feel that you have all it takes to get it; I have a duty to my party but my greatest duty is to my country; and the international community is watching, Nigeria must lead the rest of Africa by example; if we are still the giant of Africa, we should be a reference point in many areas, especially on this question of democracy having gone through military dictatorship for many years; so, if I wanted to have appoint military governors, I had that chance when I was military Head of State; now as President, it is only the people who would decide who would occupy whatever elective position; I am sure Iwu would have been able to do a lot better; because look at it this way; without organising seminars and symposia, Babangida carried out what even his worst critics described as the fairest election in Nigeria history. That was General Babangida and we are talking about 1993. Technology has improved, communication system has improved, infrastructure to some extent has improved; and therefore he ought to be able do a lot better. So if a military Head of State can preside over a free and fair election, how do you explain that a civilian cannot? The difference is in the attitude. If the election were not nullified eventually, IBB would have gone down in history as having conducted the freest election. So, the difference is the fact that OBJ was not as refined as IBB; all he wanted was to hide under democracy to appoint governors, the way he did in 1976. He didn't think anybody should be a governor, except through his approval; just like he retrenched many members of the House, who did not support his third term bidding, because he didn't see why anybody should hold a legislative office. He thinks all of those should be by appointment. So, if you have a man like that as a President, if you like reform the law 100 times, nothing is going to change; because unfortunately, there is no Inspector General of Police who does not see the President as his benefactor, there is none; and they would want to take others. If the President tells the IG see, you better go and ensure that this election takes place peacefully, I don't want to hear of intimidation; I don't want to hear of anybody snatching ballot boxes. If any thug obstructs anything, have them arrested and prosecuted, things will be different. The problem is with the leadership. If I have the opportunity ever to conduct election in Edo state, I will invite the world to come and watch; because the highest honour that anyone can have is to have your people in full freedom, entrusting you to lead them and if you have that privilege, I don't know what else anybody wants. So that is the key issue, the character of the present electoral law reflects the minds of those who designed the law, which is the former President Obasanjo and the National Assembly, many of whom benefited from rigging. That is why you can rig, when you are caught there is no sanction. In fact, they can ask you to go and improve on it and don't get caught again. This is what they did with the election in many states. They went and improved on it. Now Osunbor has been found to have benefited from corrupt practices, according the Court of Appeal. He fraudulently manipulated himself and usurped the power of Edo people. For 18 months he spent over N55 billion and he has left us with a debt burden after consuming all the revenue allocation, all the excess crude, both the one in dollars and the one in Naira, after consuming all of that, he has left us with a debt of about N10 billion. And he is even still bragging that he wouldn't return even government property and there is nothing anybody can do about it; because probably he is preparing on how he will rig the next time. So, I believe that the nature of the law is not an act of accident, is not a mistake of the head on the part of those who drafted the electoral law; it came from their heart and I will devote the rest of my life, having passed through and managed to survive all these processes to join forces with all those who insist that we must fight and ensure that Nigeria attains, in our own lifetime, one man one vote.

Do you think that is possible?

It has to happen. Nigeria cannot afford another round of rigging in future. It will be one rigging too many, and I don't want to contemplate what will happen.

Do you intend to prosecute Osunbor?

I am sure it is within my means to do so. Right now, my first challenge is not to look at, oh! What did he do to me day before yesterday? What Edo people want are clear is not to go and swell the prisons unnecessarily. I think what they want is Adams, after 18 months, you are finally here; what are the derivables? I must devote my time to do it. I think that is my first challenge, but then I feel Osunbor is already being prosecuted by his conscience.

How do you feel when people refer to you as the as Obama of Nigeria?

It's exciting but I also know that it connotes a lot challenges. The Sultan of Sokoto, who visited yesterday; he said, I pity Obama and Oshiomhole. For somehow the world believes and Nigeria believes that these people will make a difference. The case of Obama in America and the world, here in Edo State; and those who are interested in what we would be doing in Edo State are not just Edo people; virtually all Nigerians and the important thing is that one is conscious of that.

Beyond the issue of having a president who is disposed to conducting free and fair elections, how can we deter those who rig election if we don't prosecute those who have been convicted of rigging an election like Osunbor?

Well, I hope you have not misunderstood me? I did not imply that. Even as things are today, if the President instructs the Inspector General of Police to prosecute those who killed during the election; I believe there is nothing in the law that says they should not be prosecuted. I believe that the law as it is today is on the side of riggers. I said so, and I said this is not a mistake; it is deliberate; because it was, with all due respect to those who were genuinely elected in the National Assembly, I think many of them recognise that they were product of the system and they cannot rock the boat. But, as the citizens become more and more active; you know I have always said that without an active citizenry, democracy cannot survive; I think that we will get to a point where Nigerians will say 'hey men,' you just have to do it right and we are there already. I see Justice Uwais Electoral Reform Panel, set up by President Yar'Adua, as one that will lay foundation for this new change. All we need to is to mobilise the people to send the right signal to the National Assembly that they should just legislate for the good governance of this country, otherwise they will be the first victims. I think every Nigerian must pray that we clean up the electoral process. We must clean it up. I have said that Nigerians should support Yar'Adau's initiative in this electoral reform, not out of favour to him; but it is because really, we have no choice but to get it right the next time. We must learn the full lesson from Iwu's disaster and ensure that it is not repeated.

The National Assembly has just constituted a Joint Constitution Review Committee, what do you expect from this panel, giving the lack of confidence in it by most Nigerians?

I don't want you to continue to incite me against the National Assembly, because I have enough challenges in Edo State to face and I don't think it is right for me to invite more problems for myself. But my view on the review exercise is public knowledge, as expressed at the NBA Conference, in Jos. I will not repeat what I said there because they are already in print; it was very well reported in your paper, so there is no benefit repeating it. But one area I want to plead with the National Assembly is that this country does not need more states. I read in the paper that they want to create one more states in every geopolitical zone; to achieve what? Just to continue to increase the overheads. The issue of creation of states bothers on this politics of sharing. It is time to move from there to politics of production, of generating wealth; of servicing the citizens. We have 774 local governments, how much has changed in the condition of the people in those localities? Creating more vacancies for the elites to become governors and commissioners, does not go to the heart of the challenges that we face. Let us go to work, let us produce. Anywhere in Nigeria, what we need is to manage the present structure. Nigeria is probably more divided today than we used to be under the 12 state structure. I used to be a very proud Bendelite.

The only exception, perhaps in this case is the South East. But that is in terms of politics of sharing. But in terms of the challenges of development, no one has any point. Politics of sharing I have sympathy for the South East for what is good for the goose is good for the gander, but in terms of development, giving them one state will not make difference in the development for the average Igbo man. But, if others have had it why not them too, I can concede that but no other part of Nigeria can claim deserve another state. I don't even see the argument. But I know that what they are going to do is if I rub your back you rub my back, and when the country is run on the basis of run my back, I rub your back we can't grow.