Lagos — Does Africa have leaders capable of solving Africa's problems? Former President Olusegun Obasanjo is one of the continent's most experienced leaders. He was president of Nigeria twice and his last eight year term ended in 2007. Now he's a UN special envoy to the troubled eastern region of the Democratic Republic of Congo. Does his record inside Nigeria lend him any credibility as a regional statesman? He gave his answer to these questions to BBC's Stephen Sackur in Hardtalk Africa.

Let's start with your role in the Democratic Republic of Congo. You were appointed last year by the secretary general of the United Nations as a special envoy, mediator. Do you believe that you have made progress to stabilizing and pacifying Eastern Congo?

Of course, I do believe that substantial progress has been made. I won't say were there yet but by the time of my appointment what does the world say about the Congo? Almost a monumental humanitarian crisis that really shocked.

The situation which led to that monumental humanitarian crisis and of course everywhere in the world people were concerned and that was what led to the Secretary General of the United Nations appointing me as a special envoy.

If I may interrupt, what we saw in January was a new military offensive, this time the Congolese army and the Rwandan army. Joint military offensive against the Hutu militiamen. Was that something you were in favour of?

On the seventh of November last year, the leaders of the great lake region called for a summit. The Secretary General of the United Nations himself was at that summit, leaders of the AU were at that summit, and that summit took certain decisions, one to confirm my appointment not only as special envoy of the Secretary General but also as the facilitator and mediator for the great lakes region and the AU and also for former president of Tanzania, Benjamin Nkapa.

Are you in favour of the joint military operation of the Congolese army and the Rwandan army working together to try to using the phrase used by the President of Rwanda, to eradicate the Hutu militias. Do you favour them?

At that point, the main problem of the humanitarian crisis has been stemmed, but on the seventh of November as I told you when the leaders met in Nairobi, President Kagame and President Kabilla will not exchange greetings let alone shake hands. Now, that is the major problem because if two neighbours are so crossed against themselves that they would not talk to themselves, you cannot talk of peace.

Now, the situation started moving, they started talking to themselves, to the point that they even came to work out a joint operation for peace in the Democratic Republic of the Congo and President Kagame said that in his own lifetime, he hasn't seen any time he is confident of peace in the Congo as it is now. And if he said that, he knows what he is talking about.

He says that all the peace forces are now out of the Congo. Is that true?

I have no reason not to believe him but coming back to the point I made, the fact that the two countries agreed to have a joint operation, must be applauded.

I appreciate the points you are making but it raises questions as well. One questions is the fate of Laurent Nkunda who was one of the leaders of the militia fighting the Hutus. He was supporting Rwanda but they now hold him under some kind of House arrest and the Congolese government wants Nkunda to stand trial for war crimes inside Congo. Is your message to Rwanda that they should hand him over to Congo for trial?

I have no message for Rwanda. I have peace mission in the Eastern Democratic Republic of Congo. I have peace mission in the whole of Great Lakes region. Now, I don't tell Rwandan government or Congo's government what they should do. And now, if Laurent Nkunda had committed any crime against his country or against anybody and he has to be held responsible that is the responsibility of the DRC.

But you are there as an adviser and as a mediator and as a man who sends messages on behalf of the UN Secretary General for both sides.

I am not adviser, I am mediator and facilitator.

And sending messages on behalf of UN Secretary General in your opinion would it lead to stabilization for Nkunda to be sent for trial in Congo?

There is extradition agreement between Congo and Rwanda and Nkunda is a wanted man in the Congo and in the hands of Rwanda and that part of the agreement would have to be accepted and worked upon. It may be on terms that they would agree within themselves but that is the way it goes.

Do you believe that president Kabila has the capacity to unify and pacify whole of his country?

I believe Kabila can lay the foundation of long term peace in his country. What are the ingredients for this? Kabila of all the leaders that have come before independent of the Congo is the one that has legitimacy through a nationwide democratic election. So he has that to his credit. Congo is very weak in the institution of state. What the international community can do is to help Congo to establish those necessary institutions to really make Congo a strong state. Congo is not a failed state but a very weak state.

I am interested that you talk about the role of the international community. Do you support the international criminal court indictment and warrant of arrest of President Bashir for crimes against humanity?

I have to know what the crimes are and how they were committed before I give you an answer. As at the moment, I don't know what the crimes are.

But we know that hundreds of thousands of people have died and many were wounded and many many more have been forced out of their homes in Darfur. Once accused of crimes against humanity, it is safe to assume very serious allegations of his directing a military campaign against civilians. The international court wants to put Bashir in front of it so that it can test the level of his responsibility. They believe that there is enough evidence to have a trial.

Well, if they put those pieces of evidence open publicly and we can all see it.

We can trust the international criminal court. It sounds to me that you are defending the Sudanese government position.

No, I am not defending the Sudanese government position, I am not even holding brief for anybody. In government, I was one of those who supported and signed unto ICC and in the belief that it will be fair, just, nonpolitical and absolutely doing what it should do but today, I am not sure how nonpolitical ICC is.

Is it not the case that Africans around the continent want to see their leaders held to account. They want to know that the institution of justice has some practical impact on their lives.

But I have given you example. If you can be sure that President Bashir had given troops order to commit genocide, of course, I will be one of the first people say, then, he must face the music. Until we get that proof.

If you get the proof before the trial, isn't that putting the cart before the horse?

Before I condemn anybody, I want to have evidence.

I have listened to news emanating from the Nigerian press, the National Assembly and other sources and there are serious allegations concerning you and your family on corruption and kick backs. Now are you prepared to face those charges?

I am very much prepared. And if you have any evidence, Steve, please show it to me and I will defend myself anywhere in the world. Because, it is absolute nonsense, with due respect. I am the only leader in Nigeria that has investigated and cleared by the anti-corruption bodies in Nigeria.

Your successor was quoted as saying that corruption was endemic in Nigeria and that it was the elite that were responsible?

Cuts in. Well, he is one of them. He is one of the elite.

Because as he said as he takes over what is happening inside government was corruption to the very top. What he said..?

Cuts in. Did he mention Obasanjo. Did he mention Obasanjo, Steve?

But you were the President?

I was the President.

But you were the head of the government of the country?

Oh, I'm not responsible for the corruption of every Nigerian.

But you were the Chief Executive of Nigeria presiding over a system that was endemic in corruption?

You have made strong allegation against me as a person and you have no way to substantiate it. Substantiate it. You are taking undue advantage.

Now, let's talk on specifics. Halliburton has paid vast amounts of money in fines in the United States because of bribes and corruption paid out to Nigerian officials. And the testimony ?

Now, those officials, am I one of them?

No, let's talk about that. I know Jack Stanley confessed last year in the US to bribing three successive holders of top executive, the executive branch of the Nigerian government negotiated with them about how much bribe that was to be paid ?

Who are the officials?

I'm coming to that. You can cross check that with the testimonies before a French prosecutor. Jeffrey Tesler, another Halliburton official named you as one of the three successive Nigerian Heads of State who had been involved in negotiations with the Halliburton subsidiaries which were later in the US found to have been guilty of bribery and corruption on a massive scale.

Tesler will never say that. Let Tesler bring out because when you say somebody is guilty of corruption, there must be the giver, there must the taker and there must be the evidence.

Are you saying you never met with Mr. Tesler?

No. Never. Absolutely no.

Do you know he has been arrested and the US is now seeking his extradition. And are you worried..?

I'm not worried. He should bring evidence. I'm very sure of my position and my stand. I do not say that people in my government were not corrupt. But I'm not corrupt.

Let's stop it just there. Are you saying that people in your government were corrupt?

Of course, I will not say that people in any country or government are not corrupt.

I am talking about senior people in government, ministers and your allies. Do you now believe that some of them were corrupt?

Well. My Vice President had something to do with Jefferson, which is part of the case in America. I don't know whether corruption has been proved or not but he had questions to answer.

That is terrible failure on either side, because you personally can be held to account. Would you accept there was terrible failing on your part as the President to see inside your government because according to your successor, there was rampant corruption?

I did not accept that because if somebody is found to be corrupt in any government, the onus lies on the head of that government to bring that man to book. When I was head of government there was no case of corruption against any minister, any high government

That explains the system doesn't work?

No, I don't agree with you.

That means that when you were in government there was no single official convicted of corruption ?

I don't agree with you. You don't have facts right. In my government so many officials were charged to court. In fact one died in the process. The Inspector General of Police was charged and convicted. The President of the Senate in my own party was charged to court. And the Minister of Education was charged to court. So what do you want? Don't insult me.

Now let's talk about the case of your daughter?

Yes, what happened to my daughter?

She is being investigated by the anti-corruption agency inside your own country?

And so what?

Would you take responsibility for her ?

Why should I? She is old enough. She is a girl of 42 years old. Would you accept responsibility for your son at the age of 21 for whatever he does? Don't ask me that type of question. I find it very insulting with all due respect. Would you ask a European leader that type of question?

You are the leader and your daughter is accused of serious offence..?

That's an allegation. And anything can be alleged. You can be alleged to be a liar. And when it is investigated and proved that you are not a liar then the allegation goes. I don't work on allegation.

Nigeria is about the number seven country with the richest resources in the world ?

Cuts in. We are a potentially rich country. We are not a rich country.

Your oil reserves are vast and yet according to UN figures about a third of your population are living in extreme poverty. Can you explain why that was the case when you left office?

We have oil, but compared with the population of Nigeria which is over 150 million you will see the difference. Take the example of Saudi Arabia what is her population? Saudi Arabia is producing nine million barrels of oil per day while Nigeria is producing today less that 1.8 million a day. You cannot compare that or with Kuwait or the UAE.

So would you accept that Nigeria has not utilized the opportunities and resources that it has?

Nigeria has used the opportunities and the resources that it has to the best of her ability. But I will say there have been lapses. And you can say the same thing of any country. The fact is that Nigeria is fighting these lapses and doing something about them. I think the right thing is to say hurrah to Nigeria. There are many countries where all these things are covered up. In our own case, we are ready to go out and say yes.

We set up under my own administration two bodies like any other country which is fighting corruption. And even here the Metropolitan Police gave us kudos.

Some of the words of your successor appear to suggest that he was unhappy with the way you handled certain things. Are you happy with the direction which he is taking Nigeria today?

I don't want to comment on that because it is too soon for me to do so.

After two years? How many years does he need before you can comment?

You should ask him. If you have said he said is true then you should ask him. And I believe that what you said he has said is not true because he won't say so. I know that this man is to the best of my knowledge for now a good person. But even he himself knows that being a good person alone does not make you as a person a successful and a great president. You need much more than that.

Olusegun Obasanjo, thank you very much.