Kristin Palitza
19 June 2009
interview
Cape Town — Analysing the colonial and historical roots of the violence in Darfur, Mahmood Mamdani concludes that the crisis in Darfur is not genocide, but a fight for land, triggered by drought, which has been racialised by outside powers. Mamdani, a third-generation Ugandan of Indian descent is Hebert Lehman Professor of Government and director of the Institute of African Studies, at New York's Columbia University. He launched his book, 'Saviours and Survivors. Darfur, Politics and the War on Terror' at the 2009 Cape Town Book Fair on Jun. 16.
Why did you decide to write a book about Darfur and not another humanitarian crisis?
I went to Sudan in 2003 for a few weeks to meet Sudanese intellectuals to get their sense of their society, the year the insurgency in Darfur began. A year later, Darfur was big news, very different from any [other conflict] on the continent. Even Rwanda hadn't been that big news until the genocide was over. The answer was very simple: Darfur was the focus of a domestic movement in the United States, the Save Darfur movement.
In 2006, I began to get the backdrop when the GAO [United States Government Accountability Office] found that the mortality estimates of the Save Darfur movement of 400,000 deaths were the least reliable, because it took figures from an unrepresentative sample, while the most reliable figure came from the World Health Organisation, which said about 112,000 people had died.
When reading the reports, I realised that those who died had not necessarily been killed. The major cause of death was drought and desertification, which killed between 70,000 and 80,000 people, mainly children, while only about 35,000 people did of violence. There was a gap between what was made public and what was happening on the ground. The Save Darfur publicity was simply about violence. Nothing told you why the violence was happening.
I realised that the violence had begun in 1987-89 with the drought. And then the big powers got involved in the mid-80s. When [former president Ronald] Reagan came to power in the United States, he declared Libya a terrorist state, and the Cold War began to focus on Chad. The US, France and Israel supported one side in the Chad, while Libya and the Soviet Union supported the other side. The [US-led] opposition was armed and trained in Darfur. So when the drought happened in Darfur in the mid-80s, the place was awash with guns.
The main premise of your book is that the context of the crisis in Darfur cannot be called genocide. How did you come to this conclusion?
I'm saying several things. We, the human rights movement, ignore issues and just focus on identifying violations, the perpetrator, the victim. We specialise in naming and shaming the perpetrator, and we demand criminal justice. In all this, what's lost is a sense of the issues that are driving the violence.
Violence has a history. In Darfur, it was driven in the context of a drought and a land settlement, which was as old as the colonial period when the British had created tribal lands. There was no land given to Nomadic tribes. So when the drought came, they had no fallback. So [the crisis] was land- driven.
It wasn't about race, but it began to get racialised. When the external agencies came in, they just assumed this was a conflict between Arab tribes and non-Arab tribes, and in this context the Arabs were the perpetrators and the non-Arabs were the victims. But the issue of land remained unaddressed.
You say the West's humanitarian intervention is a cover for military invasion. What facts do you base this assumption on?
Initially, I thought Save Darfur was another classic peace movement in the US. But I realised that Save Darfur was a war mobilisation. It's slogans were 'Out of Iraq into Darfur', 'Boots on the Ground', 'No Fly Zone'. Its emphasis was to never focus on the issues that were driving the violence. The entire focus was to demonise the perpetrator.
This emphasis was very much like the War on Terror, which said that any attempt to talk about issues was an apology for the perpetrator. Darfur was just a place where evil lived. They think if you do away with the perpetrator, the violence will stop. Yet the violence will go on, because the issues remain. If you understand the history of war, you understand victims and perpetrators are on the same side, and sometimes victims and perpetrators are the same people.
What is the post-Cold War international order and how does it related to the crisis in Darfur?
If you think of the African conflicts that have found some kind of a solution, you realise that in all these cases, you had to move away from criminalising the opposition to seeing this as a political conflict driven by certain issues. The best example to me was the solution to apartheid in [South Africa].
This had also worked in Mozambique and in south Sudan. There had not been court trials, but political reform. We have to accept the possibility that both sides may have committed crimes, and if we agree on political reforms, we [let go of] the crimes so that we can have a fresh beginning and a rule of law whereby everybody can be held accountable. That's the way to go.
Is there a hidden agenda to re-colonise Africa?
We know there is greater attention on Africa today than there was ten years ago. We know the US is not the single global power. There are new powers on the horizon, like China. The contest between the US and China globally is focused on Africa. And in Africa, it's focused on particular countries, and Sudan is one of them. It's about natural resources, without a doubt.
The US is neck-deep in Chad, for oil and uranium, and China is neck-deep in Sudan for the same reasons. The contention of the two of them is unavoidable. But hopefully, with the Obama administration, there is a more sober assessment of American power and therefore a more sober realisation that the US has to learn to co-exist in the world. It can't just call the shots. And I think we'll be seeing this in terms of a new global attitude inside Africa.
Is Africa's independence at stake? What should be the African Union's response?
The level of death and killing went down dramatically in Darfur after September 2004, to less than 200 a month. The main credit goes to the African Union (AU) because it figured out that the way to end the fighting was to put in place a political process, which would make negotiations and discussions possible.
But the AU was sabotaged consistently. The West, which is the Europeans, the Canadians, the Americans, agreed to fit the bill for the AU soldiers, and Africa agreed to provide the bodies on the ground, but [the West] never footed the bill.
Still, the AU has come out with some credibility. They have done much better than the UN. It was scepticism about the AU and the suggested political settlement, and huge scepticism about Africa being able to find its own solutions. Those who agreed to the AU coming in did it full of scepticism, as a temporary measure, simply because the West was not willing or ready to come in.
Therefore they never provided the resources they said they were going to provide and never honoured the conditions they said they were going to honour. It became a self-fulfilling prophecy. But still, the AU has done the most credible job of anybody in Sudan in that short space of time.
Your book ends with a proposal for a triple solution: regionally negotiated peace, combined with power reform in Sudan and land and governance reform in Darfur. Why do you think this would work?
There are several lessons here. One, you can't get big powers to come and solve your problems. If you need external involvement to solve a conflict, it is best if that involvement comes from your neighbours through an organised arrangement, either regional or continental. They will have a real interest in making peace in that country, because they will always be neighbours.
Second, Sudan needs power reforms like most countries becoming newly independent. You cannot expect a full-blown democracy being delivered in the womb of a colony. It's absurd. Creating representative power takes internal struggles.
The most intractable will be the land question. Partly because it's embedded in the tribal settlement of land that came out of the colonial period and then in the notions of absolute ownership of land.
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It may be true that whatever efforts have been undertaken by the international community have fallen short of the expectation, but so have so many efforts at addressing several problems that bedevil so many places in Africa. What is patently dishonest is for Arabist-Islamists like Mamdani to use it to justify the genocide - however and whenever it happened.
To the extent that Mamdani in his socalled books (and one recent interview posted on AllAfrica) accuses the international community of "demonizing the perpetrator", meaning Bashir. Who would Mamdani have the international community demonize ? The African tribes that have been annihilated ? Anybody who is killing people for political reasons is a DEMON. That is the nadir of Bashir politics. It seems Mamdani being consumed with his ideological predispostions has completely lost the concept of justice.
Mamdani's attempts at defending and justifying the indefensible makes for the most dishonest scholarship there is on Darfur.
What happened and continues to happen in Dafur is genocide. If a picture is worth a thousand words then millions of horrid pictures from Darfur are worth gazzilion words that no amount of fictions trolled by the Mamdanis types will disprove or dispel.
Nigeria:
Government Spends $5.5 Billion Yearly On Food Importation
China Reneges On $2.5 Billion Rail Contract Pact With FG
These are just two (2) headlines on one Black African Country . So Many nations seem to be interested in Black Africa. We should grow our own food and build our own infrastructure. WE SHOULD BE SELF-SUFFICIENT !!!
How long will we play the role of welfare recipients ? When will we finally see what we have and why so many want our natural resources ? I can’t be so silly that I would definitely say that I know why so many others want to help us. But we should ask them WHAT’S IN IT FOR YOU ? We should also not forget how human nature works. We are not operating in that logical way of doing things.
Questions :
1) Would you allow someone to move into your house and take over your household responsibilities ?
2) Would you expect a stranger to care more about your family than you do ?
3) Are we blind and unable to see the connection between our unrefined resources and the wealth they bring to those so-called First World Countries ?
HERE’S A LINK TO SOME HISTORICAL EVIDENCE AS TO WHY SO MANY ARE INTERESTED IN BLACK AFRICA : [http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/leopold.html?q=printme] PART I : BERLIN CONFERENCE ( General Act Of Berlin ) Saturday Novemeber 15, 1884 to Feb, 1885 According to the book “King Leopold’s Ghost “ (1998) Adam Hochschild 1884 - In November 14 European nations (Austria-Hungary, Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Great Britain, Holland, Italy, Norway, Portugal, Russia, Spain, Sweden and Turkey) and the US meet at the Conference of Berlin, called to carve up central Africa among them. 1885 - The Conference of Berlin concludes in February. FRANCE is given 670,000 square kilometres on the north bank of the Congo (modern Congo-Brazzaville and the Central African Republic) and PORTUGAL 910,000 square kilometres to the south (modern Angola). Trade in rubber and ivory is strictly controlled, despite Léopold's undertakings in the Berlin agreement. *************************************************************************** ********************************************************************* PART II : BRUSSELS CONFERENCE November 18, 1889 to July 2, 1890 a total of 16 Nations met : A) Their cover story was : SUPRESSING THE ARAB SLAVE TRADE B) Their SECRET AGREEMENTS were on dividing up Black Africa among themselves C) It took 33 sessions to reach agreement between these nations. Heads Of States Names are inserted as they were in charge at the time of these plots 1) Austria-Hungary - Francis Joseph I Charles - August 18, 1830 - 2) Belgium - King Leopold II – April 9, 1835 3) Denmark - Frederik VIII -June 3, 1843 4) France - Marie François Sadi Carnot – August 11, 1837 - 5) Germany - Wilhelm II -– January 27, 1859 6) Great Britain - Queen Victoria (Hanover) – May 24, 1819 – British Ruler – 2nd 7) Holland –William III – February 19, 1817 8) Italy - Umberto I - March 14, 1844 - 9) Norway - Oscar II [Oscar Frederik] – January 21, 1829 (Also Sweden) 10) Portugal - Carlos I – September 28, 1863 11) Russia - Alexander III Alexandrovich – March 10, 1845 12) Spain - Alfonso XIII – May 17, 1886 13) Sweden - Oscar II – January 21, 1829 (Also Norway) 14) Turkey - Abdülhamid II, - September 2 or September 22 - 1842 - 15) United States - Benjamin Harrison – August 20, 1833 - 16) Persia (Iran) - Nasser al-Din Shah Qajar – July 16, 1831 - Here are just a some major Black Africans who have had an impact on the world With their initiative These are INVENTORS : * Sarah Boone - IRONING BOARD - April 26, 1892
* John A. Burr - LAWN MOWER
* Marie V. Brittan Brown - HOME SECURITY SYSTEM - Dec 2, 1969
* Buridge & Marshman - TYPEWRITER
* George Carruthers - X-RAY MACHINE
* George Washington Carver - PEANUT BUTTER - PAINTS – PAINT STAINS – ETC
* John Clark - TRACK ATHLETE TRAINER
* W.A. Dietz - SHOE
* Joseph Dickinson - PLAYER PIANO - ARM FOR RECORD PLAYER
* P.B. Downing - POSTAL LETTER BOX
* Charles R. Drew - BLOOD PLASMA STORAGE SYSTEM
* T. Elkins - TOILET (COMMODE)
* Robert Flemming Jr. - GUITAR
* Cathleen McCoy Garrett SIREN - HORN LIGHT INDICATOR
* George F. Grant - GOLF TEE
* J. Gregory - MOTOR
* Joanna Hardin - KEYBOARD STAND - Feb 23, 1993
* Michael Harney - LANTERN
* Solomon Harper - THERMO(HEATED) HAIR CURLERS
* Augustus Jackson - ICE CREAM
* B.F. Jackson - GAS BURNER
* H.A. Jackson - KITCHEN TABLE
* Ruane Jeter - DIGITAL TOASTER - April 14, 1987
* Isaac R. Johnson - BICYCLE FRAME
* John A. Johnson - WRENCH
* Lonnie Johnson - SUPER SOAKER WATERGUN
* P. Johnson - EYE PROTECTOR (GOGGLES)
* W. Johnson - EGG BEATER
* Frederick M. Jones - DEFROSTER - REFRIGERATION CONTROLS – AIR CONDITIONER
* Jones & Long - BOTTLE CAPS
* John H. Jordan - CLOTHES DRESSER
* Mary B. Kenner - SANITARY BELT (TAMPONS) - May 15, 1956
* Mary B. Kenner - SANITARY BELT (WATERPROOF) - April 14, 1959
* Mary B. Kenner - BATHROOM TISSUE HOLDER - Nov 19, 1982
* Mary B. Kenner - BACKWASHER ( BATHTUB OR SHOWER MOUNTED) - July 29,1987
* Lewis Latimer & Nichols - ELECTIC LAMP
* W.A. Lavalette - PRINTING PRESS
* F.W. Leslie - ENVELOPE SEAL
* Maurice W. Lee PRESSURE COOKER
* A.L. Lewis - WINDOW CLEANER
* John L. Love - PENCIL SHARPENER
* Tony J. Marshall - FIRE EXTINGUISHER
* Alexander Miles - ELEVATOR
* Jan E. Matzeliger - SHOE LASTING MACHINE
* W.A. Martin - LOCK
* Garrett A. Morgan - GAS MASK - Traffic Signal
* Lydia Newman - HAIR BRUSH - Nov 15, 1898
* Alice H. Parker - HEATING FURNACE - Dec 23, 1919
* J.F. Pickering - AIR SHIP (BLIMP)
* Purdy & Sadgwar - FOLDING CHAIR
* W.B. Purvis - FOUNTAIN PEN
* L.P. Ray - DUST PAN
* W.H. Richardson - BABY BUGGY
* Walter Sammons - PRESSING COMB
* G.T. Sampson - CLOTHES DRYER
* Dewey Sanderson - URINALYSIS MACHINE
* Ralph Sanderson - HYDRAULIC SHOCK ABSORBER
* S.R. Scottron - CURTAIN ROD
* Adolph Shamms - MULTI -STAGE ROCKET
* .W. Smith - LAWN SPRINKLER
* Richard B. Spikes - AUTOMATIC GEAR SHIFT
* J. Standard - REFRIGERATOR
* T.W. Stewart - MOP
* Maxine Snowden - RAIN HAT - 1983
* Theora Stephens - PRESSING & CURLING IRON
* Rufus J. Weaver - STAIR -CLIMBING WHEELCHAIR
* Paul E. Williams - HELICOPTER
* J.B. Winters - FIRE ESCAPE LADDER
* Granville T. Woods - Telephone System Apparatus Oct 11, 1887 – Patent # 371, 241
* Granville T. Woods - Roller Coaster
* Granville T. Woods - Auto Air Brake - June 10, 1902 - Patent # 701, 98
* Granville T. Woods - Telegraph Transmission Devices - Dec 2, 1884 Patents # - 308, 816 (7)
Thanks to The Black Inventors Museum P.O. Box 76128 Los Angeles , Calif. (90076) Phone (310) 859-4602) Director : Ghanaian Mr. Hamza Salifa Contributor of Information : SEESTAH Imahkus Nzinga Okofo
*************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** ****************************************************************** Ghana: Despite Global Economic Downturn
Nigeria: Govt Spends $5.5 Billion Yearly On Food Importation China Reneges On $2.5 Billion Rail Contract Pact With FG
These are just two (2) headlines on one Black African Country . So Many nations seem to be interested in Black Africa.
How long will we play the role of welfare recipients ? When will we finally see what we have and why so many want our natural resources ? I can’t be so silly that I would definitely say that I know why so many others want to help us. But we should ask them WHAT’S IN IT FOR YOU ? We should also not forget how human nature works. We are not operating in that logical way of doing things.
Questions :
1) Would you allow someone to move into your house and take over your household responsibilities ? 2) Would you expect a stranger to care more about your family than you do ? 3) Are we blind and unable to see the connection between our unrefined resources and the wealth they bring to those so-called First World Countries ?
Possible Solutions :
1) All Black African countries should take charge of their own households by : * Develop First World Infrastructure for our people. * Here is where we would need the expertise of individuals ( who might just be From other World households). * Avoid those Ponzi Scheme “ Loan Interest “ traps . Loan Interest is the major Wicked way of keeping us in economic slavery . * Develop , Process, and Manufacture our own Natural Resources and sell them to the rest of the World community and the same prices that the rest of the world does. For far too long we have subjected ourselves to the FLOATING DECIMAL POINT OF CHAOS [AKA BARGAINING]. * Develop a complete system for over-seeing the performance of our leaders . This LEADERSHIP OVERSIGHT must be done constantly and regular reports must be submitted to the public in various media outlets. For example : A Monthly Report Card . We could call this Leadership Oversight Instrument “ THE MONTHLY REPORT : For Our Elected and Appointed Public Leaders “.
2) Take charge of our own countries. President Mugabe of Zimbabwe, Jomo Kenyatta of Kenya both saw those persons occupying their lands and took measures to get control of their own country’s household. Each Black African country’s household has its own unique situation We must be aware of our own need and not expect a stranger to run our household.
3) Each individual Black African must begin to [ continue to, and teach their children to See themselves as equals with everyone. Our wealth, character, and social standing does not make us inferior or superior .
Conclusion : Our actual fight is not against each other or any of God’s creation.. We are at war against principalities, powers who are the rulers of the darkness of this world. And these rulers of darkness are not humble. They have minds like the fallen angel , formerly known as Lucifer (now known as Satan “The Accuser of The Brethren) who said “I will rise into heaven ! I will exalt my throne above the angels of God ! I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High ! Our leaders’ hearts and minds are under constant attack from Hell’s inhabitants. Spiritual warfare is going on constantly, therefore we must be vigilant. I suggest that we develop a consistent prayer regimen. There are types of prayer lists that we can develop and implement twice per day The evening & the morning sacrifice of our lips to God (Sunset & Sunrise). Types of Prayer Lists Family & Relatives (Natural Family / Christian Family) – Truthseekers Friends – Associates – Causes – Daily Prayer List – Weekly Prayer List – Monthly Prayer List – Yearly Prayer List “ Pray On My Child, Pray On My Child, Pray On My Child , Pray On My Child “, I Got A Home On High, Yes I Got A Home On High “ ************************************************************************
So who does Mamdani think is in charge in these African countries ? Does he suggest rape, plunder, and murders can go (for years)in Sudan without the knowledge, blessing and condonation of the Khartoum (Bashir's) government. If Bashir is not responsible for the directly overseeing the killings, at a minimum he is responsible watching, with negligence and glee, as it happened and continues to happen, when he has the capacity, authority and power to stop it.
"Human fundamentalism" as Mamdani describes it here essentially victimizes the Darfuris once more more than trumps religious (Islamic) fundamentalism, which Mamdani is really advancing in his writing.
The usual excuse of blaming colonialism, the climate (droughts), or hiding behind politics to obscure the ethno-religious agenda of exterminating African tribes who have refused to convert to Islam doesn't wash. All humans including Africans should have freedom of speech and association.
And to compare American politics of red states versus blue states is diversionary.
Moverover if digging back in history for arguements makes any sense we might as well go farther back and blame Adam and Eve for all human ills.
"Human Rights Fundamentalism"
This argument is specious! Justice must not need to regard political context. Mamdani's conclusions are patently false. We must not place politics on a pedestal. Politicians, historically demonstrated, are self-serving, egotistical, wasteful, unintelligent, venal and corrupt and generally out of touch with reality. They generally end up in politics when no other industry will have them. They are NOT persons to be admired. If not for a facility for lying with a straight face they would be mostly living out of cardboard boxes 'neath concrete abutments just off the motorway! As religious leaders lost [and still lose] credibility over the centuries so politicians will equally lose the trust of the voting population. But please - don't turn them into heroes!!!
Thank you for a great artcle. It is the first I read that explained what the problems there really are. Though it was clear from the propaganda used by the Bush admin. that the US had its hands in it as well and was using it to justify adversity against Arabs and particularly Muslims to rationalize US aims regarding energy and territorial issues underlying the war on terror, none of the coverage elucidated as well what the real problems are as Professor Mamdani's explanations. The African Union cautions against Bashir's arrest. It is incumbent on the ICC to listen. This article shows why that is so.
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