Nairobi — Head of Jesus is Alive Ministries Bishop Margaret Wanjiru, who is also MP for Starehe and assistant Housing minister, bares her life in politics and her controversial engagement to South African preacher Stephen Matjeke. She spoke to Travis Kavulla.

Good morning, Bishop! You've got not one but two computers. I take it you are not among the 35 percent of MPs who are computer illiterate?

Yes. I love IT. I move with technology. Without technology you will not go far, and you will be left so backwards. And then you become frustrated because you'll depend on everybody else. I am online, and I am wireless.

I was brought up in the Catholic Church, and by comparison your church is much more entertaining. It seems to me, when I look around Kenya, that more and more people are moving from churches that are a bit boring, a bit—how shall we say?—unmiraculous, to churches like yours. Why is that move occurring?

Because of the presence of God. People want to be where God is. People want to know that I did not go to church just to spend two or three hours getting bored. They want the reality of being in the presence of God. If you go to a church service, you should ask yourself: Could I say I had an experience with God? Did I feel God? Did I understand what was preached, or did someone just come and open some big book there and just read something, so that I don't even remember what he read and where it came from? People want to find solutions in Jesus Christ, not to just spend time—they might as well spend that time shopping.

Let me ask you about the Pentecostal theology. Jomo Kenyatta once said that "nothing is free." You've got to work hard. But in Pentecostalism, you're encouraged just to give to the church and God will give back to you many times over—like an investment strategy. It doesn't seem to depend on your hard work.

It's not just about giving. You must have the Word of God, and that takes a lot of time. This thing is not for the lazy people. It takes prayer. You cannot just say I sowed my seed or paid my tithe so I don't pray. No, no. It takes prayer, and real prayer takes time, not just, "Our Father who art in heaven hallowed be thy name…" and in two minutes you're over.

Apart from that it takes diligence. You do not just say, "Money will find me here on the table." No, you have got to work. I do believe in small beginnings, especially here in Africa because of the level of unemployment. You can start just by selling vegetables but so long as you are faithful to God and doing what you're supposed to do and working hard, somewhere along the line your end will be great. It's not just about the offerings. Everything, spiritually and physically, has to be done right.

One more question about this so-called Prosperity Gospel. Some people say it's a way of pastors enriching themselves. After all, you and many preachers are quite well-to-do.

What is prosperity? Is it the dresses I am wearing, the car I drive? The real truth is no. There are many people driving big cars, but they have no peace of mind. There are many people dressed very well, but they cannot be happy because they are dying of various diseases. So prosperity is not necessarily what everything looks like.

Before we look in your wallet, let us see what is in your soul. The Bible says that as your soul prospereth, so shall you prosper. But if your soul is not prospering, even if you are very rich by outside appearances, those riches will not add any value to your life. But if your soul is prospering, if you are a humble person, then God will add to your prosperity.

Let's turn to politics. In America, there is this concept of the separation of church and state. And it's very murky, because so many Americans politicians are religious, and how they think about religion tells them about how they should vote politically.

Exactly. So they are being hypocritical.

Well, let me just quote to you something a Catholic priest told me recently in an interview. "The gospels make clear that we must speak out for the poor, but the problem with entering formal politics is that you must pick a side and in the name of party loyalty you will always be compromised in some ways."

Pick a side, huh?

Haven't you had to pick a side in the sense that you've joined ODM?

In the last elections, 2007, the reason why we had political clashes throughout the whole country was because almost everyone picked a side, including the Catholic priest who said that, if he is Kenyan.

You know, when God decided he had had enough of King Saul in Israel, he decided to change him and he replaced him with David, who was a Psalmist. Most of the Psalms we preach were written by David. He was a preacher, a prophet of God. If God could use and anoint David specifically for the rulership of Israel, He can do the same in Africa. Because the African dictatorial leadership, the African old guards, who are always in power and never want to let go, they think leadership is a family thing and pass it on from old father or old grandfather to eldest son. We must forget about that. It is time for change, my brother.

With respect, Bishop, a couple leaders of your own political party, Raila and the Minister for Local Government, are in the tradition of father passing his power on to son.

They know my stand. Let me teach you the dynamics of politics. In 2007, I had to ask myself: Do I want to register my own party and go through the expenses of marketing a new party? Or should I look for an already existing party and join them and win my seat? Now, I said, let me be like Joseph. He hung around Egypt and then he became Prime Minister of that same Egyptian land. Wisdom dictates, for now, that I be involved in an existing political party, and a political party where you are sure you will not lose, but win, your position. What's next, we will know only in the future.

I remember your race for Starehe. There was a lot of criticism of you as a Kikuyu in ODM.

That's right. I am the only elected Kikuyu MP in ODM.

Well, as you know, there are a lot of Kikuyu wazee who are thinking, 'Ah, this Margaret Wanjiru. She does not stand up for her tribe.' What do you have to say to that?

I am a nationalist. I am not a tribalist. Look at the church that God has helped me to pastor. I preach across the board. I preach in Western, in Nyanza, in Eastern, and Northeastern. I preach in Central Kenya—I preach everywhere.
Just because I am in politics, I cannot go and become a tribalist. But that does not change the fact that I am a Kikuyu. I am still a Kikuyu. I speak Gikuyu, and my name is Gikiyu. But my heart is not tribalistic. As you say, the Kikuyu wazee and many Kikuyu people think I have abandoned my own tribe. But they need to look at what tribalism did to this country.

The chiefs in the Rift Valley, when they need to address the people, stand in the middle of the road, so that the people who are Kikuyu can come from the right, and the Kalenjins coming from the left do not have to cross the road and leave their comfort zone. Me, when I go, they come where I am with the crusade, and they do not ask each other, 'Which tribe are you?' You know what that tells me? If things get worse than they are, I could probably be the person to rescue this nation because I am a unifying factor. I can speak to all the tribes without them condemning me.

It sounds like you're looking at 2012. Do you have those higher ambitions?

I am not saying anything like that. Did you hear me say anything about 2012?

I won't press you on it. What are some of the concrete things you've done for Starehe?

I spent yesterday doing a launch of sanitation blocks. You know, I am a Member of Parliament for a very poor constituency. Eighty percent of Mathare is in Starehe. There are no bathrooms or toilets. And we have started building facilities where people can have toilets, they can have bathrooms for shower, they now can have water taps to fetch water, and a washing bay. All of this is nearby their homes.

And recently we've seen these pictures of you wading into these post-Apocalyptic scenes in Grogan. One wonders if the rapture has finally come! You've spoken out for these mechanics and for other squatters in your constituency. These people have lived and worked there for a long time, but they don't have the formal title to the land.

Yes, that is a problem—security of tenure for the land. Some of these people have been doing business in a particular area for many, many years. And one morning you wake up and find out that a private developer dropped here from some place and came with a lot of money. There is some crazy money in this place, I tell you. And the problem with our country, which I guess is the problem across Africa, is that when you have money you can buy everything and everyone. So, I have to fight for the land in Starehe, otherwise all the squatters will be driven out by those who are using this crazy money.

There's also this issue of the Alston report. To put it simply, it seems that the police of Kenya were involved in extrajudicial killings. What's your take on the police strategy, if it can be called that, and on the Mungiki threat on general?

The old men who rule this country have misused the youth, and the youth are saying enough is enough. We are actually sitting on a time-bomb that could explode at any minute. Now the youth say, "You're enjoying life up there but you have left us behind, so for me to live, I will go and look for someone who is making a living, and just take something from them." The youth do the wrong thing, and the police—what do they do?—they begin to kill them. Now killing is not a solution. And how many can you kill, unless you want to kill all of them? We need to transform our communities. We need to add value, moral value, to our people. I think all of these things that have gone wrong can be traced to our leadership.

Going back, slightly, to the issue of religion and politics. I went to your church in the last election season, and I recall you referring to your opponent, Maina Kamanda, as "the devil." And you said you were "taking the seat for Jesus." You seem very convinced that you are on God's side.

I am convinced. Well, not just convinced, I know. It is just not a conviction. It is a reality. I am on God's side. I don't do things unless God sends me to do them. Romans says, "As many as are led by the spirit of God, then they are sons of God." And the Bible goes on to say that the sons are the heirs. In other words, there is an inheritance for us as the body of Christ.

I'll occasionally have a strange dream that I try to take meaning from, but how do you feel God is speaking to you? How do you receive these messages?

Oh, I know God. I do. I can hear and understand what God is saying.

I wish I was so sure!

But you see, you are not born-again. So you are trying to understand something you cannot understand. First, you need to be born again. That is Step One. The next step is to be filled of the Holy Spirit. Then you are able to know when it is your own mind, and when it is the Spirit of God. When it is the Spirit of God, I seem to get more concentration, more seriousness, and more faith. When it is my own mind, I feel that I have a choice. But when it is God, I must obey. That's why I'm quiet about 2012. Until I hear God.

As a politician and a bishop, you are responsible for leading by example…

Yes, but I'm not an angel.

No, you're not an angel. We're all sinners in Christianity. So when since coming into office have you sinned?

I would not say I have sinned. But I would say there are things I wished could be done differently. One of those issues was taxation of MPs. That issue was quite a subject in the public arena, and there was a misunderstood point there, that MPs don't pay their tax. In fact, our salaries are taxed…

Sijajua.

Ah, so the difference is that the allowances in parliament are not taxed. That is something the public did not understand. But the person who started this discussion did not start it with the right motive. He had a holier-than-thou attitude. And he actually had his own taxation problems. So he was trying to say, "I'm the only MP who is paying taxes." But his motives were not right.

So which MP was this?

Aha—find that out for yourself!

That's a journalistic trick. Sorry.

Well, I just want to make clear that as an individual, as Margaret Wanjiru, I don't choose to pay taxes or not. I pay according to the law. And the Bible says, "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar." But you see, Caesar must define what is his. In this case, he hasn't.

Let's talk about James Kamangu.

Ah, that character.

Now that Mzee Kamangu is deceased, do you have anything to say on that case?

No, I don't have anything to say for this matter. When I entered into politics, I knew my opponents would hit on me. What I did not know is what they would use, and who they would use, and how they would do it. They chose to do it this way. But the fact that I won the elections—well, God gave me the victory. For me, it is really a pity that he even allowed himself to be used. But do you see what poverty does? You can be paid to do whatever.

He was not your husband?

No. He has never been my husband.

Well, did you know him at all?

Everybody knows him! Who doesn't know Kamangu? Go in the streets and ask anyone.

I mean before this became an election issue. Did you know him?

I'm telling you, he has been working here on the streets way before 2005. Everybody knew him. But the truth is that when he decided to be a person used to do the dirty work against me, I was shocked. In the beginning, I thought it was a big joke. I thought people were lying, maybe misquoting him. To me, it was unbelievable.

And he's not alone. Let me tell you this: One day I'm watching TV and I saw another old man, and to this date I cannot tell you his name. I have never seen him again, but the old man came on the screen and claimed to be my father! Now for heavens sake, my father is dead, buried, finished. But I knew how my father looked like. It was a very ugly incident. It was very, very unfortunate that they took politics to that extent. But battles come and go, and here I am.

Do you know who the father of your children is?

Of course!

I mean, is he still living?

That's my private life. But of course I know him. Which mother doesn't know the father of her children? I know the father. I have three children and one granddaughter.

Do your children know him?

Well, I am the one who has brought up my children herself. So even if they wanted to know him, maybe they would ask a question here and there, like all children could. But they know they were brought up by me, just by myself. As I was bringing them up, there was no male figure. And probably for that I give myself several pluses for doing well, for raising up Godly children without a male figure. It's not easy, but it was done.

And there were reports that you were reports that you were to be married to South African preacher Stephen Matjeke. Is that still on?

No, the guy left me. My Kikuyu brothers made my South African preacher run away! Oh, the guy was frustrated. He could not lead my life. It was too much. You know every time he walked up to the airport, the media was there. He went to the hotel, he could never leave his room. You guys, you journalists, stayed outside his room. He said to me, "Baby I love you, but I can't lead that type of life. I've got to leave." So I'm still asking God for a husband.

Someone will come along!

Yes, a good, Godly brother.