Daily Independent (Lagos)
Sam Akpe
6 July 2009
interview
Kings College, Lagos, 'old boys' are peculiar people any day, and immediate past Minister of National Planning, Mohammed Sanusi Daggash, has not proved to be an exception.
Or was his aristocratic disposition a product of his sound upbringing? Anyhow it turns out, the Borno State-born gentleman, who did executive programmes Budgeting and Financial Management in Harvard and Columbia universities, is one personality whose views on the polity and economy are 'unputdownable'. Despite his being booted out of office, in this interview with Deputy Editor, SAM AKPE, he speaks on his faith in the present administration. Excerpts...
You are fresh out of government. The popular opinion is that Nigeria means nothing to you politicians. What's your perception?
Nigeria is all we have as a country. We were born here in this country; we have to find a way of developing our immediate space, which is Nigeria. Despite all the challenges and problems that we face as a country, we have no option but to work day and night to develop it, to change it. And because of what we have seen elsewhere, those are the standards that we are going to use. We always say that this is a blessed country; yes, we are blessed with human and material resources, but we have not been able to exploit either to its optimum level, for us to convince ourselves that we are doing enough to develop our country and ourselves. So, Nigeria as a country means everything to me. This is a country that you can achieve your personal and collective as well as national aspirations. You cannot do it any other place. So Nigeria means every thing to us. It is our only country, so we have to find a way of developing it and moving it forward.
I read a book, 'It's Our Turn To Eat', by Michella Wrong. Does that not describe your attitude and that of your colleagues when you were in government?
I wouldn't say it is our turn to eat. That is some kind of a philosophy of mind. It is unfortunate that it is a philosophy about the type of politics that has developed since the post-colonial times. When the colonialists came, they created that foundation for corruption. They introduced taxes. The people, who were in that environment, were not used to paying taxes, but tributes maybe to the monarchs. Now it became mandatory or you were fined or sent to jail. So, this was a tacit strategy to get the labour force to work in the plantations, in infrastructure, in production so that the colonial powers would exploit those resources that you had. So now, they had to offer their labour power to the white man who would exploit it and pay them a wage. It therefore meant that you had to work to pay tax. So, without us knowing, even the ownership of land, the taxation system inherently started putting a structure that was going to facilitate corruption. Unfortunately over the years, anytime an opportunity of reforming or restructuring the nation's economy came about, or another opportunity came for reconfiguring the political system, you find out that corruption changed from one form to another. So, the form of corruption that was being applied in the 1950s would have changed in 1960s, would have changed in the 70s, changed in the 80s to what we have today. The element of accountability is what is missing. So you could take public office; you can abuse public trust; you can abuse your powers and your office without being called to question because the institutions that are supposed to protect the public interest, unfortunately, are so weak. They exist, but are so weak or try to do more than they can handle to the point that they are now inefficient.
Possibly, you exploited that weakness too when you were serving as a minister.
No, you are wrong. I was Minister of planning. The office allows you certain privileges. If you are in public office, they say privilege and rank are synonymous. You will be able to be in that inner circle to take decisions.
What does power mean to you?
Power in a broad sense would mean the capacity to exercise and manage resources. Those resources belong to the public. But you are, by virtue of an election or appointment or a coup d'etat, given those powers to decide on behalf of the polity on what is best. If you decide to be straightforward, to God be the glory. If you decide to be a crook, then you see the fall-out is very clear. So, that office allows you certain privileges.
And you came out a saint?
That is based on my background of having integrity, honesty, being religious and focused. The office of a planning minister, in other countries, is the second largest and most powerful office after that of the President. So, with that, it becomes an intellectual-based kind of office. It is not a contract- awarding office; it is an office for analysis, research, guidance, philosophy, national, national values and so on. So you keep on churning out documents; that doesn't mean you are churning out money. But other ministries may have the responsibility of awarding and monitoring and evaluating contracts. Now, if you are dealing with crooked contractors, what do you think they would do? They'll try to abuse and compromise those who are regulating them. So, even in the course of regulation, people still try to abuse the standards, and that is the ultimate corruption. Not just what you are putting in your pocket, but abusing a system. That will have far-reaching effects on those who you are supposed to be leading and administering.
You were a powerful minister, or were you muffled?
Well, I didn't feel muffled because if you ask my colleagues who were in the Federal Executive Council (FEC), they would tell you if there were three very dominant and powerful ministers at the council level, I would probably make the three, even if I say so myself. I viewed the Ministry of Planning based on the Act of 1993 and I tried to exercise my powers to that extent without compromising it. So, if a minister comes from his sector with a project, a programme, some strategy, we carried it through in the ministry and tested it. If we have reservations about it, I speak to him privately or publicly in the Federal Executive Council about it. So, nobody could escape: power, oil, energy, defence, finance, economy, planning, infrastructure, you name it; we always had a position.
What thrilling conclusion can you draw about your person as minister?
My personal challenge to myself was that I would never find myself in a position where the President would ask me a question and I would say I had no idea. And I can say this comfortably, up to when I left the Federal Executive Council, all my interactions with my colleagues, Mr. President, the Vice President; there was never a time I would be asked a question of what was happening in this country and I wouldn't have an answer.
You must have been asking your colleagues, "what is in it for me?" since your ministry wasn't awarding contracts.
Never, in fact, most of the ministers didn't even want to relate with the planning ministry because they see us as stumbling block. So, they mostly work directly through the presidency, even the Secretary of Federal Government, but we end up meeting at the Federal Executive Council and questions would come up. When we ask those questions, you don't ask "what is there for me?"; you say "what is there for Nigeria?" I believe that whatever we do in public office should, first of all, be in the national interest; secondly, in the interest of government of the day; thirdly, if we have any personal benefits and privileges, it should be in the interest of both the person providing as well as us facilitating.
How then did you make your money as a minister?
I never made any money as a serving minister and as I speak to you, as somebody who has come out of government, I had more money in 1998 than I have today as an individual.
One is trying to believe you.
And I had more money in 1998 than I had in 2007, just before I became a minister. And today, I am even less more endowed financially than I was two years ago. I had a 10-year stint with public office. I was no longer a businessman where I would accrue anything for myself. I had influence. I could put people together. I could solve problems. I could facilitate things, but people may show their appreciation. Personally, any time somebody made a personal gift to me, I reported it to the President. I would say Mr. So and So gave me so and so and I would thank him. I did that twice.
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