Daily Independent (Lagos)
Michael Jegede
6 July 2009
interview
Lagos — FRANK OGBUEWU, former Minister of Culture and Tourism during the administration of Olusegun Obasanjo, is also a one-time Nigerian ambassador to the Republic of Greece and former local government chairman in his Ebonyi state, between 1994 and 1996. In this interview with Reporter, MICHAEL JEGEDE, he contends that President Umaru Yar'Adua has done well in the area of the rule of law, contrary to the global human rights report that he has not achieved anything in the last two years.
Excerpts:
What is your assessment of 10 years of uninterrupted democracy in Nigeria?
The general definition of democracy, which everybody tends to buy, is government of the people by the people and for the people. But it is not in all cases that the definition holds water. I think that whatever system or aspect of democracy that works for a country is the best for that country. After all, Britain is a democratic country but it is operating the parliamentary system. America is a democratic country practicing the presidential system. What is important is the fact it should be the government of the people, by the people and for the people.
Now, the tenet of democracy cannot all be found in a developing country like Nigeria. They may have some parts of it, but not all. But on the whole, I still believe that we need to celebrate 10 years of democracy. When we remember like some of us feel that the worst democracy is still better than the best military government, at any point in time we still prefer democracy, no matter the flaws because we are bound to grow. Democracy will continue to grow in Nigeria until we attain that level that people think it is ideal even though there is nothing like ideal situation in the world. But we will get better. I am one of the people that believe that we have every reason to celebrate democracy.
I wonder why some people were saying that there is nothing to celebrate about democracy. At least there is freedom of speech, freedom to express your views, freedom of movement, freedom to pursue your normal business without intimidation. Generally, all these have been given to all of us.
And thanks to the present government in the area of the rule of law. To a reasonable extent, we can go to court and expect to get justice. That was not the case during the military era. Even though we can compare what we have now with what obtained during Obasanjo regime, there was still some element of rule of law. So, we cannot compare a military government with democracy no matter how we look at it. So, I believe we have reason to celebrate 10 years of democracy. And again, remembering that it is the first time that we were able to transit from one civilian government to another civilian government, no matter the flaws, no matter the way we look at elections, whether they were fair or not fair, what is important is that there was no military intervention within these 10 years. We are making our mistake quite alright. But I believe that we are still better off than what had in the military days.
If you look at things critically, it appears that the people have not really enjoyed the dividends of democracy in Nigeria. What exactly do you think is the problem? Could it be due to bad leadership?
It depends on what you mean by dividends of democracy because as far as I am concerned all that I have mentioned earlier are part of the dividends.
Looking at it from the economic angle, would you say the people have been so empowered to warrant their celebration of democracy in this country?
Yes, I agree that there is poverty in the country. But I always ask people to look back and ask themselves: At what point did democracy start in Nigeria? What was Nigeria like before May 29, 1999? What was the level of poverty in Nigeria at that time? We are talking poverty today. Just cast your mind back to all sectors of the economy and find out, tell me of any sector of the economy that was better then than what we are seeing today. If you think of any one anyone that was better before 1999 than what we are seeing today in all aspects of the economy, you can tell me. Otherwise, I think our problem is high expectation. We have been starved for so long. We were all damned too hungry and wanted to eat and catch up with other social aspects of lives which have been subdue and bastardised by the military regime. And these things are coming in trickles. They are not big enough for us to really satisfy our urge and contentment. So, as long as you are still hungry, there is no democracy dividend as far as people are concerned. But the issue is, are you as thirsty as you were before 1999.
But do you agree that we have leadership problem in the country even as we practice democratic system of government?
Yes, I agree that leadership is our problem. But then, what about the people, are we doing what we are supposed to do. Government would provide certain facilities and somebody somewhere would be busy destroying it for his own private economic advantage. No country grows that way. So, I think that both the government and the followers have to really show more patriotism. The leadership would have to show more patriotism, the followers have to show more patriotism as well by protecting government properties as our individual properties.
As it is at the moment, it does appear that there is no opposition in Nigeria. How do you think that the opposition can be made to be vibrant?
I am not to teach opposition how to be vibrant. But I am of the opinion that the type of multi-party system we operate in this country is too large to make any reasonable opposition. I am one of those advocating for a maximum of three political parties so that we can have a system that only one or two party is in the opposition. One party is in a position, another party is in opposition. If the party in power does not perform according to the expectation of the people, the other one will take over like what is happening in America. It is as if there are only two parties in America. But then, there are more than two parties, including independent candidates who are free to contest election in America. But we always hear about two parties. Even in Britain we here mainly about two parties. They were able to develop to that level. But here we have not been able to develop to that level. Rather, others are there in name just to pick whatever that might fall out of it. Everybody still believes that you join politics only for the purpose of winning election. If you cannot win an election you feel there no purpose of being in that party. You have to move to another party where you can win election. But I believe that most of these things will definitely change. By the time all the parties including my own party the PDP introduces internal democracy where people will be allowed to present themselves to the electorate and got nomination to contest election. I believe that when that start happening there will be no point for anybody to leave his party to another one.
Of what significance would the entrenchment of internal democracy be to the process of having credible elections in Nigeria?
If internal democracy is properly introduced in our system, you will find out once you talk about rigging of election, it will be reduced drastically because people that endeavour to rig are people that were not nominated by their people and they now do everything they can to win the election. But if you were really nominated by your people, you do your normal campaign. You don't need to rig to win election because the people are there to vote for you. And if that start happening people will now be free to queue and vote for people of their choice. But because wrong people are put there they will use all means at all cost including thuggery or whatever you call it to win election, in other words to rig election. I believe that if we introduce internal democracy in all the parties, believe you me the fifty political parties will continue to realign until they become less than five parties. Then, politics will start making more meaning. It is only then that once you talk about opposition, it will start making more meaning to Nigerians. But today, there is no opposition in the country.
How do you feel bothered that we have 50 political parties yet we do not have opposition in the country?
Yes, it is unfortunate that we have 50 parties yet none of these parties can stand on its own and say it can oppose PDP. This is not healthy is not healthy for the country at all. As a matter of fact, it is not even healthy for my party the PDP because it doesn't give them the opportunity to know where they are going wrong. When nobody challenges you, you believe that you are right in all that you are doing. But if somebody challenges it gives you more opportunity to correct those areas that you are not doing very well. And as you are correcting yourself, the people of Nigeria will be benefiting from what you are supposed to really give to them as dividends of democracy. But when there is no opposition, nobody to correct you. Whatever you are doing is assumed to be the best you can do and the people suffer the brunt. I believe that even for those in government, the leaders whether the President or the governors should always be ready to take criticism. When somebody criticises you, it affords you the opportunity to check your actions. There are criticisms that are not for good intention. And so opposition is constructive criticism. That this is not what it is supposed to be. If I get there I will do it this way, this way. It is what you tell them that you are going to do when you get there, as an opposition that will give the people opportunity to assess you and the ruling party. Are you going to do better when you get as you are claim? And that is when campaign becomes very necessary and educative to the electorate, not a situation that you carry out your nomination today and next two weeks you are going to the polls to contest election. The electorates were not given the opportunity to assess you and know who you are. What you are going to do. What do you have as your manifesto, I mean your party manifesto. And what you intend doing through that manifesto yourself. Nobody gives Nigerians this opportunity any more. I am looking forward to a day that all those things will come back.
Recently, the world human rights body in a report scored Yar'Adua low saying that he achieved nothing in the last two years that his administration has been in existence. Do you agree with that position?
That global human rights report on President Yar'Adua was wrong. I think they were not right. It is wrong for anybody to condemn the President completely that he has not done anything for the past two years. They were not being fair in their report. He may not have done the best or he may not have met the expectation of the people as such. But that is not to say that he has done nothing for the past two years. You see, leadership style differs from person to person. Leadership of the President may be different from the leadership style of President B. So, as far as I am concerned, I will rather prefer to give him the remaining two years. Let see what will happen because one thing I know is that he is sincere about the rule of law, going by what he has allowed the court to do and obeying the court orders shows that he is sincere about the rule of law, even when it is against his own interest, he still obey the court order. That shows that he is sincere about the rule of law. The only thing that I think is going to be a testing ground is the electoral reform. I think that is the only thing people are looking out for. And if he does it the way he promised to do it, his name will be written in gold in Nigeria. That is if he is able to reform the electoral system in such a way that election will be conducted and a winner will congratulate the loser. Then, he would have written his name in gold. I think that is just the only thing I believe that will turn our face to the right direction. And since nobody asks him, he offers to do it. Whatever we think that is not right now, I don't want to believe that is going to turn back to his promise.
With the level he has gone, in terms of the electoral reform, do you think there is hope that the reform can create an environment that would really guarantee a free and fair transparent and credible election that will give Nigerians the opportunity to elect their leaders?
I think the ball is now in the court of the National Assembly. I say so because we know that whatever the National Assembly comes up with is what the President will definitely abide by. It is only when he decides to veto the decision of the National Assembly. The National Assembly's decisions are accepted and welcome by Nigerians as the best or what they were looking for. It is only then that people would say the President; you are reneging on your words. But he has done what he feels is the best for him and passes on to the National Assembly and the National Assembly says oh, the President, it as if you are bracing up to what Nigerians want. And now decided to do what Nigerians want and refuses to sign it and vetoes it. As of now I still believe that the ball is in the court of the National Assembly.
What is your assessment of the National Assembly in the 10 years of the nation's democracy?
Again, the life of the National Assembly is similar to what I tried to explain before about Nigeria's position before 1999; and where we are today. the Assembly or what you call the legislature had always been the loser in all the years of military administration. The executive had always being in place. A president might go, B president might go, C president might go, but the permanent secretaries were there, the directors were there, the civil servants were there and all these come within the ambit of the executive. There was nothing like National Assembly or legislature. Now, in 1999 we had the first crop of legislators and after four years most of them were voted out, new people came in.
The new people that came in are not better than when we started. So, we have been on learning process till today. As far as that National Assembly is concerned, we are still in the learning process up till today. If you ask me I will prefer a situation where it will almost be professionalised. Professionalised in the sense that if you allow somebody to run almost his life in the national assembly we will see the benefits and the beauties of democracy. If you watch those of them that are in their third tenure in the national assembly now, listen to their debate, listen to their contribution you will see the difference. You will see somebody talking from experience. I don't want to mention names. But I know that there are few of them that if you watch them during the national assembly debate or whatever, you will see their contribution and discussion is always very every different from others. We have new crop that are naturally intelligent, during very well as well, going next to those that have were there before.
Now, if by the next two years you remove all these people and bring new people. We are going back to square one. So, I don't normally rush to blame the Assembly people that they have not contributed enough to the growth of democracy. I don't agree with that. They have contributed reasonable to the growth of democracy. They may not have satisfied Nigerians they are suppose to have satisfied Nigerians. Buy let us think of how many of them have served in that capacity for the number of years they are supposed to serve before they get that experience. Let us not look at what happen in America and other developed countries, where somebody can spend all his life in the congress or in the Senate, fifty years in the congress, fifty years in the senate. How many of them do you have in Nigeria? So, if you allow the members of the National Assembly to go in, go back for an election, come back. Although, you must still have to expose them to the electorates quite all right. I am not saying they must go back. But they will all now be working hard to satisfy the electorate so that they will elect them back. But this issue of it is our quota.
These people have to go. They are from North West, North East, South West and the rest of them have to go as long as we continue to have freshmen in the National Assembly. And fresh men will always be fresh men in their ideas. Even in Secondary schools, in the university. Fresh men in the university can never be the same with those in year two or three in Secondary School, anywhere. It is therefore our duty as Nigerians to reduce the tendency of my people have been represented. Let me represent them this time around. As long as that person representing you, is doing what he is supposed to do without really concentrating on what they call constituency jobs to his home town. As long as he is taking care and charge of the whole constituency, I mean anybody could be there. And that I believe will help us.
Despite the way the Ekiti re-run election went, there are those who believe that the problem with the re-run was not that of the Independent National Electoral Commission (INEC). Do you share the same opinion?
It is not even only in that election. The problem of election in this country is not all about INEC. I said it earlier the era of rigging and carrying of ballot boxes will end any day we start internal democracy, nominating people that are supposed to be nominated in our primaries, it will stop. Forget about INEC. It is not about INEC at all. It is about insisting that you must be there when you are not supposed to be there. Your people don't want you to be there. But because you know Mr. A they gave you nomination that you must be there. That is the problem. If the issue of Mr. A in a party headquarters can allow the people to select whom they want as their National Assembly members, State Assembly members, governors or whatever, if they allow them to select them on their own rigging will end. You don't rig when you can be overpowered. But when it comes to point of intimidation with gun, everybody will just go to his or her house to rest. So, I don't really blame INEC in everything that happens in this country. They are human beings. But in most cases the people that conduct elections are they INEC officials. INEC officials only do the paper work.
How would you describe the present leadership of the PDP?
The leadership of the PDP at any given time will determine what PDP will look like. The way the public sees PDP will be determined by the leadership of the party at any point in time. The way people see PDP now is different from the way people were seeing it before now because of change in leadership. And this leadership has not conducted any general election. They have not conducted any primaries to say that they are going to introduce internal democracy or they are not going to do that. I believe that the next primary election that they are going to conduct, they will abide by that popular opinion of internal democracy and the review of the constitution of the party is part of it. But that was not the case before. We were all victims of lack of internal democracy. I was once victimised. So, that cannot be the same. And again, the relationship between the government and the party goes a long way to influence what happens in the party.
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