Daily Independent (Lagos)
Michael Jegede
6 July 2009
interview
Lagos — FRANK OGBUEWU, former Minister of Culture and Tourism during the administration of Olusegun Obasanjo, is also a one-time Nigerian ambassador to the Republic of Greece and former local government chairman in his Ebonyi state, between 1994 and 1996. In this interview with Reporter, MICHAEL JEGEDE, he contends that President Umaru Yar'Adua has done well in the area of the rule of law, contrary to the global human rights report that he has not achieved anything in the last two years.
Excerpts:
What is your assessment of 10 years of uninterrupted democracy in Nigeria?
The general definition of democracy, which everybody tends to buy, is government of the people by the people and for the people. But it is not in all cases that the definition holds water. I think that whatever system or aspect of democracy that works for a country is the best for that country. After all, Britain is a democratic country but it is operating the parliamentary system. America is a democratic country practicing the presidential system. What is important is the fact it should be the government of the people, by the people and for the people.
Now, the tenet of democracy cannot all be found in a developing country like Nigeria. They may have some parts of it, but not all. But on the whole, I still believe that we need to celebrate 10 years of democracy. When we remember like some of us feel that the worst democracy is still better than the best military government, at any point in time we still prefer democracy, no matter the flaws because we are bound to grow. Democracy will continue to grow in Nigeria until we attain that level that people think it is ideal even though there is nothing like ideal situation in the world. But we will get better. I am one of the people that believe that we have every reason to celebrate democracy.
I wonder why some people were saying that there is nothing to celebrate about democracy. At least there is freedom of speech, freedom to express your views, freedom of movement, freedom to pursue your normal business without intimidation. Generally, all these have been given to all of us.
And thanks to the present government in the area of the rule of law. To a reasonable extent, we can go to court and expect to get justice. That was not the case during the military era. Even though we can compare what we have now with what obtained during Obasanjo regime, there was still some element of rule of law. So, we cannot compare a military government with democracy no matter how we look at it. So, I believe we have reason to celebrate 10 years of democracy. And again, remembering that it is the first time that we were able to transit from one civilian government to another civilian government, no matter the flaws, no matter the way we look at elections, whether they were fair or not fair, what is important is that there was no military intervention within these 10 years. We are making our mistake quite alright. But I believe that we are still better off than what had in the military days.
If you look at things critically, it appears that the people have not really enjoyed the dividends of democracy in Nigeria. What exactly do you think is the problem? Could it be due to bad leadership?
It depends on what you mean by dividends of democracy because as far as I am concerned all that I have mentioned earlier are part of the dividends.
Looking at it from the economic angle, would you say the people have been so empowered to warrant their celebration of democracy in this country?
Yes, I agree that there is poverty in the country. But I always ask people to look back and ask themselves: At what point did democracy start in Nigeria? What was Nigeria like before May 29, 1999? What was the level of poverty in Nigeria at that time? We are talking poverty today. Just cast your mind back to all sectors of the economy and find out, tell me of any sector of the economy that was better then than what we are seeing today. If you think of any one anyone that was better before 1999 than what we are seeing today in all aspects of the economy, you can tell me. Otherwise, I think our problem is high expectation. We have been starved for so long. We were all damned too hungry and wanted to eat and catch up with other social aspects of lives which have been subdue and bastardised by the military regime. And these things are coming in trickles. They are not big enough for us to really satisfy our urge and contentment. So, as long as you are still hungry, there is no democracy dividend as far as people are concerned. But the issue is, are you as thirsty as you were before 1999.
But do you agree that we have leadership problem in the country even as we practice democratic system of government?
Yes, I agree that leadership is our problem. But then, what about the people, are we doing what we are supposed to do. Government would provide certain facilities and somebody somewhere would be busy destroying it for his own private economic advantage. No country grows that way. So, I think that both the government and the followers have to really show more patriotism. The leadership would have to show more patriotism, the followers have to show more patriotism as well by protecting government properties as our individual properties.
As it is at the moment, it does appear that there is no opposition in Nigeria. How do you think that the opposition can be made to be vibrant?
I am not to teach opposition how to be vibrant. But I am of the opinion that the type of multi-party system we operate in this country is too large to make any reasonable opposition. I am one of those advocating for a maximum of three political parties so that we can have a system that only one or two party is in the opposition. One party is in a position, another party is in opposition. If the party in power does not perform according to the expectation of the people, the other one will take over like what is happening in America. It is as if there are only two parties in America. But then, there are more than two parties, including independent candidates who are free to contest election in America. But we always hear about two parties. Even in Britain we here mainly about two parties. They were able to develop to that level. But here we have not been able to develop to that level. Rather, others are there in name just to pick whatever that might fall out of it. Everybody still believes that you join politics only for the purpose of winning election. If you cannot win an election you feel there no purpose of being in that party. You have to move to another party where you can win election. But I believe that most of these things will definitely change. By the time all the parties including my own party the PDP introduces internal democracy where people will be allowed to present themselves to the electorate and got nomination to contest election. I believe that when that start happening there will be no point for anybody to leave his party to another one.
Of what significance would the entrenchment of internal democracy be to the process of having credible elections in Nigeria?
If internal democracy is properly introduced in our system, you will find out once you talk about rigging of election, it will be reduced drastically because people that endeavour to rig are people that were not nominated by their people and they now do everything they can to win the election. But if you were really nominated by your people, you do your normal campaign. You don't need to rig to win election because the people are there to vote for you. And if that start happening people will now be free to queue and vote for people of their choice. But because wrong people are put there they will use all means at all cost including thuggery or whatever you call it to win election, in other words to rig election. I believe that if we introduce internal democracy in all the parties, believe you me the fifty political parties will continue to realign until they become less than five parties. Then, politics will start making more meaning. It is only then that once you talk about opposition, it will start making more meaning to Nigerians. But today, there is no opposition in the country.
How do you feel bothered that we have 50 political parties yet we do not have opposition in the country?
Yes, it is unfortunate that we have 50 parties yet none of these parties can stand on its own and say it can oppose PDP. This is not healthy is not healthy for the country at all. As a matter of fact, it is not even healthy for my party the PDP because it doesn't give them the opportunity to know where they are going wrong. When nobody challenges you, you believe that you are right in all that you are doing. But if somebody challenges it gives you more opportunity to correct those areas that you are not doing very well. And as you are correcting yourself, the people of Nigeria will be benefiting from what you are supposed to really give to them as dividends of democracy. But when there is no opposition, nobody to correct you. Whatever you are doing is assumed to be the best you can do and the people suffer the brunt. I believe that even for those in government, the leaders whether the President or the governors should always be ready to take criticism. When somebody criticises you, it affords you the opportunity to check your actions. There are criticisms that are not for good intention. And so opposition is constructive criticism. That this is not what it is supposed to be. If I get there I will do it this way, this way. It is what you tell them that you are going to do when you get there, as an opposition that will give the people opportunity to assess you and the ruling party. Are you going to do better when you get as you are claim? And that is when campaign becomes very necessary and educative to the electorate, not a situation that you carry out your nomination today and next two weeks you are going to the polls to contest election. The electorates were not given the opportunity to assess you and know who you are. What you are going to do. What do you have as your manifesto, I mean your party manifesto. And what you intend doing through that manifesto yourself. Nobody gives Nigerians this opportunity any more. I am looking forward to a day that all those things will come back.
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