Daily Independent (Lagos)
Anthonia Soyingbe
8 July 2009
interview
Abuja — Monsignor Matthew Hassan Kukah, a priest of the Catholic Church essentially known by many for his high intellectual bent. He is also a consummate and rigorous scholar with deep passion for Nigeria. Former Secretary General of the Catholic Bishops' Secretariat, secretary to former President Olusegun Obasanjo's Human Rights Violations Investigation Commission, Kukah has been a clergy for over three decades earning for himself respect and authority on issues of religion, ethnicity, civil/military relations, and human rights. A prolific writer, the priest who earned his Ph.D. from the University of London, led our REPORTER Anthonia Soyingbe into his life and position on major national issues.
Excerpts:
Considering the fact that you are from the Northern part of Nigeria with predominant Muslim population, why did you embrace priesthood?
How did you come about that conclusion? Your conclusion, to me, is not true. Which is your home parish and how many priests do you have there? There are more Christians in my diocese than most of the diocese in the South West. In my small home parish where I come from we have over 30 catholic priests and that is about the number of priests some dioceses have.
What then was the attraction for you to embrace this vocation?
It is very difficult to point to the attraction because, as a child, things that attracted you to priesthood might not be the same with the reality of the vocation. It is like asking a lawyer or a medical doctor what attracted him to his profession. To a particular doctor, it might be thermometer or for the lawyer it might be the wig and the gown. Attraction to the priesthood might also be as a result of the tangibles but realities will be different as one proceeds to the minor and the major seminary, and one will discover that things are different. My main attraction was just like that of other people because at that time my mind had not appreciated the way and manner of the complexity of priesthood. Watching the priest and serving at mass were some of the little things that initially attracted me to the priesthood.
On the national scene you are often heard and seen. This, to some, is a contradiction because they believe a man of God is permanently confined to the pulpit.
Where is God?
He is in heaven and he dwells among us.
Not in the church? If God dwells among us everywhere, why will a priest be confined to the church? If you are preaching the word of God, you go to where people are and so it is false that a priest should be confined to the pulpit. Every issue in Nigeria is national; bad roads are national, hunger is national, lack of electricity is national, unrest in the Niger Delta is national and other issues are national. We talk about all these issues in the church too. My church has no light and so everybody's interest in national affairs is dictated by his experience. I don't like to be called a man of God because of what it depicts in our society. Rather I prefer to be referred to as a catholic priest. What people understand to be a man of God is not what it is; they are bringing Christianity into disrepute. Calling me a man of God in our society contest doesn't capture what my vocation and calling is.
What are your thoughts on materialism in the church because most churches these days are alleged to have abandoned their core responsibility of seeking souls to chasing worldly things?
People are now looking for a God to serve them instead of serving God. Amidst the poverty we are living in, prosperity teachings get a lot of customers because people are now looking for money. We have seen people develop pile in Nigeria by drinking soft drink because they want to win lottery. All the telecommunication companies are gambling in other to attract people. Similarly I can understand why people are using the word of God in order to attract people. Our people only need to be discerning about what they actually want. The principal reason Jesus came is clearly articulated; that is, so that we can have life. He (Jesus) clearly described what that life is. We have different things and so some people are going to church because they believe a particular pastor can pray for them to get their heart desire. All these so called men of God are taking advantage of the poverty we have in the land. What do you expect people to do in our environment where there are no jobs, no security and no light? They believe running to church is enough. All these 'I feel alright' messages you are hearing can't stand in some parts of the world. Since we are living in this kind of environment, those things have their attraction.
You are one of the few people who went to the national scene and came out with their integrity intact. What was the secret?
I am grateful to God that I had an opportunity to serve Nigeria. These things have humbled me and have helped me appreciate what Nigeria is all about. Principally wherever I find myself, I consider it a pastoral assignment. If I had gone there looking for money, contract or things that were beyond my brief then I would have run into trouble. I can't answer your question by saying I am wise or I am intelligent. God has been gracious to me. I have had a lot of opportunities but I have never lost sight of where I am coming from. For me all these things are temporal assignments. My primary assignment as a catholic priest is purely pastoral. That is why I came back after all these national assignments as a parish priest. I have seen all these things as an opportunity to serve my country but primarily I have a peculiar experience of being a Catholic priest.
During the cause of your national assignments, how did you relate with your colleagues in the assignment considering the fact that you are a priest? Didn't they sometimes get offended by your mode of doing things?
No, I have had the opportunity of working with some of the best human beings. There is no clerical way of talking about it. Everybody had his reason for coming into the committee and the president appointed people for their expertise and for other reasons. All these things are useful to me because I come close to people in a way and manner that ordinarily I wouldn't have. Where would I have met Justice Chukwudifu Oputa to spend a year working with him? Where would I have met Justice Uwais and where would I have met Justice Niki Tobi? I had my own little contribution to make and you wouldn't come to these committees as an expert. People gave me my respect because I had come there to work just like they had come. They would definitely treat you with respect but the quality of your contribution would determine the kind of respect they would accord you. Each and all of these assignments have been a very special opportunity for me.
Senators in the ruling party are demanding for automatic ticket in 2011, what are your thoughts on this?
I don't know who will be here in 2011. That is why politicians must be humble. Some of the people seeking that may not be here in 2011 and I see this as a redundant conversation. I know Nigerians don't like to learn. Abacha was planning something, something else happened and I would have thought that politicians would learn from that. Democracy is about freedom. Anybody can aspire to become president in 2011. It is not a problem and philosophically I won't grudge a politician who is aspiring to hold any post in 2011, as a right anybody is free to aspire. The question you and I should ask is not if PDP senators want to retain their seats in 2011, we should ask ourselves if we want to join that train. If you don't want to be in that train you have the right to tell them when they come to you that you don't want to be in that train. As a declaration of intent, I have no problem with that; I mean absolutely no problem because they are still within the boundaries of their right. But I know the realities may not be so because I don't know who will be alive in 2011. Getting a ticket in 2011 might not take them to the seat. It is an automatic ticket from PDP.
his is a simple political science. You need to understand what the issues are. A political party is a party. If the PDP wants to recycle the same set of senators, they are free to do that. PDP can present a dead person as its candidate it is left for you to decide if you want it. Don't panic because some people said they want automatic ticket. I am not bothered because we haven't reached that bridge and they would have to ask me if I sign up to that. If you tell me you want to buy a car next year why will it bother me? It is only if you are asking me to contribute to it that I will feel the pain. I can't deny you to have an ambition. Don't bother about PDP decision because it is a political party among other political parties in Nigeria. Your victory becomes easier if they present characters you don't trust.
What does such demand depict on Nigeria's democracy?
I can understand why anybody holding public office in Nigeria will not want to go, including you, because they are making free money, the type that will send you to jail in other countries. This is a country where no one can go to jail for stealing it doesn't matter how much you steal. It is a very attractive proposition because we are living in a lawless nation. I can understand why public office holders don't want to leave especially people who came with no homes, people who came with no cars. They are living a wonderful life and so the business for them is wonderful. Don't deceive yourself, if you are in a business where you can make money for nothing would you want to leave? They are talking about it amidst themselves and they are earning millions every month on your behalf and on my behalf. The outright stealing that is going on all in the name of politics in Nigeria makes public office attractive. People are not there because they desperately want to serve Nigeria. They are there because they want to steal. It is about choice. Like they say if it happens for the first and second time they say it is a mistake but if it comes the third time they call it enemy action. Now that you know, you have to make up your mind if these are the kind of people you still want to elect as your representatives. Like they are saying about the Uwais Report, the report may have the most wonderful recommendations but it is you and I that have to decide what we want to sign to. Very few Nigerians have placed high premium on themselves. If Nigerians know that by intimidation and bribery people get into power, it is left to them to decide if they still want to collaborate with them then you lose your right to complain about the politicians. This will definitely have an adverse effect on Nigerians because it will make them lose confidence in the process. It is bad enough that Nigerians don't trust politicians but that is an inherent ingredient of the decay in our political system. They have made politics a criminal enterprise and so people are losing interest in our political system. The positive side is that now that you know what are you going to do? Ordinary citizens must equally not feel helpless because their vote is their power. We can actually improve the quality of governance in our own little way.
Are you saying that our votes count in this era of imposition?
I don't know about that but my vote counts.
You are seen as a politician, and they say politics is a dirty game, where does politics come in your vocation?
Everything is subjected to corruption except the word of God. There is no game that can't be dirty as football. Don't let us pretend there is different between politics and politicking. I did my Ph.D thesis in politics and religion. I am a politician, but I don't belong to any political party and I don't intend to run for any political seat.
What is your advice to politicians?
We are an out rightly religious people; we can always say there will be judgement in heaven. I tell people not to mind the judgement in heaven because it is our money that they are stealing and this money belongs to Nigeria. So we have a duty to insist on who governs us. We need to sharpen our tools of integration and so the last thing we should think as citizens is that our votes don't count. I get offended when Nigerians say our vote doesn't count. It is not true. Your vote counts and so the vote of an individual can help re-build Nigeria. 2011 will not be like 2007 because the tribunal rulings have shown that things have changed. If you see the recommendations of Uwais panel, you will see some of the things we say. Let politicians understand that if they violate the law they will go to prisons instead of going to government houses. We were under the military for 30 years without a constitution. So it could take us time to arrive there, yet we should all be hopeful that Nigeria will be great.
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