The Observer (Kampala)
David Tash Lumu and Ssemujju Nganda
4 November 2009
interview
Kampala — We're not enemies; even at war people talk and sign accords behind battle lines.
FDC Deputy President for Western Uganda, COL. NUWE AMANYA MUSHEGA's recent meeting with President Museveni raised eyebrows in some political circles. In an interview he explains the context of the meeting, and adds that a meeting between the President and the Kabaka cannot resolve the Buganda question.
What is your assignment as FDC Deputy President for Western Uganda?
The reason I was elected is not to be a representative of that region. It is the method of getting regions represented, but in actual fact you all become deputy president of the party.
And your job is not limited to the region because you are elected by delegates from the whole country. But people have taken the region from which you are elected to be more important than the office. You are responsible for the whole country and outside the country.
You have not been politically visible and some people are now asking: 'where is he?'
So this [question] is what has brought you [people] here? Fortunately you made the appointment for this interview long before that caption was published [in Sunday Vision]. Who said I'm not visible? I'm actually more visible to you than any other person. [And]I am not only visible to you.
I attend party meetings, I attend to my clubs, and play golf regularly. I have been to the Eastern region. I attend social functions. This idea of not being visible is your own concoction. I meet you more regularly than anybody, and then you say that I am not visible, what do you mean? That I am not in the papers?
There's a difference between me being in the papers and not being visible. And you are not appointed to offices to be visible but to do work. And doing work involves a number of things. One of them is to understand your work. Secondly, create teamwork with your fellow workers--finding out whom you can deal with both within the party in which you belong, and other parties.
How do people understand the situation? For example, there are those who may see that things are wrong but are not willing to admit or feel it is too risky. There are those who genuinely believe that everything is okay. How do you deal with people of different thinking and interpretation to establish some common ground or minimum standards on which to operate politically?
It cannot be achieved by seeking permanent publicity. It is more than just being visible. In fact, at our time and age, being visible all the time is not advisable. It's a sign of weakness.
Your region is FDC's weakest link with no single MP. What are you doing?
That's your view. I don't know whether you people carried out research to find out that the West is the weakest link. But recently, there were by-elections in Western Uganda. And I think in Bushenyi, out of the five by-elections, two were won by FDC, another one by an independent, and the ruling party.
Secondly, even if the Western was weak [in terms of FDC support], as you allege, I told you, you are not a deputy president of the Western region, but for the whole country and beyond. So, one of the things you need to do is to sit down, draw strategies and see where this weak link is.
What do we need to strengthen the party? It's not just a one-man/woman show because everything you do must aim at making Uganda a better place to live in. For example, recently there was famine in Teso and other problems in our party. The party thought it was good for me to go there [Teso] and meet people and leaders rather than somebody from that region.
Obviously I didn't carry with me members of the press. I was there for three days. I even visited the famine-stricken areas quietly, and I saw more than I would have seen had I gone with the fanfare.
And when I came back, I talked to the MPs from the area and told these political leaders that we need to save our people from dying. They proposed that I talk to the Prime Minister. I made an appointment and I shared with him my view on what I thought should be done. And he also gave his view. The issue was, do you solve the problem or appear in the press to be solving the problem?
But NRM is stronger in your area, which is considered no-go for FDC!
First of all, it is in Buganda and Western where the struggle against rigging elections, sectarianism, misuse of office, respect for human dignity and establishment of democracy had its roots. I hope that we regularly reflect on what we were saying then and what we are doing now.
And we did a lot of work to win over the hearts and minds of people [by telling them] that this government will be different, and of course a lot of people were recruited in the Army and intelligence services from that area. So when this force was operating in Buganda and other parts, there was a big change. Harassment turned into harmony.
When we captured Kampala, we ran through the East and the North with speed, minimal mobilisation and convincing people about the struggle. Some saw it as a conquering force. There was no time to sit down and explain. And attitudes have not changed much, they need to be changed. So, in Western Uganda, you find that there's more sympathy to what you call the Movement, and some people see it, and are made to believe it is "their government".
And the circumstances are not the same. Because you need to understand the situation a little bit more. I'm just giving you a little bit of it so you know how to tackle it.
Recently you met the President secretly; it was reported he gave you money, and told you to abandon the FDC. What did you discuss?
He called me himself, and said "why don't we have a chat?"
I have known Mr. Museveni for many years, in our university days in 1969, during the [Idi] Amin times, [and] UPM days. I was in Cabinet and I have attended weddings of his children, and so many things.
So, it's somebody you know, and the mere fact that you have disagreed on some political issues doesn't mean that you erase every contact you have. And number two, he is the President of the country, like it or not. Thirdly, I have been telling people I meet that you may have political differences but you are not enemies and you should always meet and talk about common issues affecting all of us, and the way forward.
Fourth, if you establish a tendency of not talking with those you don't agree with politically, what will you do when you are in power? Because there will be people who don't agree with you. You mean you will never talk to them? And fear to talk to others, arguing that you will be misunderstood or won over, is not a sign of strength.
So I went to State House during the day, and I went in my vehicle with my driver and another person. So when they say that it was a secret meeting, I don't understand it. That's nonsense. There was nothing secret about it. It's only him and I who can say what happened. Everybody is speculating.
So, what did you discuss?
We were just discussing issues affecting our country and the region. And this is my own impression; I believe that as a leader, no area should be a no-go area. US President [Barrack] Obama is telling people to talk to their enemies. And the word is enemies--people you are at war with. Even at war, people sign accords behind the battle line. Continuous talking goes on because war is dangerous. You can go and look at Luweero and Northern Uganda to know what the cost of war means.
So, I don't agree that if you don't agree with a leader politically, you can't even talk. I know there are people who take pride in not talking to their opponents as a great achievement, for me it's a disaster. I have been talking to some of my friends, some in DP, UPC and all other parts of Uganda. So I tell people that please, even if you disagree politically, for the good of the country, keep exchanging views and establish some common ground on which you can agree.
So, all these concoctions you are making are untrue. Then in our culture, you don't meet a person, discuss issues in confidence, and then come and discuss them in public. So, for me I wouldn't want to disclose what we have discussed. What I can tell you is that no money exchanged hands.
That Museveni gave your wife money; are you aware?
If my wife was given money, let them say when they gave it to her, how much they gave her, and why.
It was reported that the meeting between you and the President was meant to facilitate the return to NRM of people like Maj. John Kazoora, Richard Kaijuka and Miria Matembe?
I read it in the papers. These are respected people. Look at Hon. Matembe, Hon. Kaijuka. Hon. Kazoora!
Really, even when you see people taking a goat to the market, you see them pulling it, unwilling to go. You can't put a rope in somebody's neck, and take him\her to Museveni. Really, stop insulting our people.
And members of the press are being used to sell that impression that every Ugandan is hopeless. That everybody can be bought. Instead of asking the parties alleged to be giving money where they get it from, you go on condemning the victims. The subject of the matter should be: is the money being given out? Who is giving out this money? Where do they get it from? And why is this money being given out? Is this part of advancing democracy, integrity and patriotism?
How do gauge the preparations for the 2011 general elections?
When you want to hold elections for the sake of it, then you can go ahead and hold them. If you want to hold elections in order to avoid what took us to the bush, then you must do something. One of these is to have fair rules.
For example, now journalists are victims, even religious leaders get harassed. Entrepreneurs are not as free to express themselves as it should be. So to do your business well, you don't have to be of a particular political thinking. We need to agree that we should have an Electoral Commission that is respected by all. We should have laws that are respected by all.
We should have a system that is transparent. For example, we should have the voters' register that has been screened and is not alterable, even by the Commission. In the last elections we have been having the chairman of the Electoral Commission being telephoned to mention on radio that anybody who has a card and is not registered should go and vote. What is that? We must have rules to say that you have a card and must appear on the register, if you don't appear, sorry.
We should have a system that is respected. So, to me, all is not well for the next elections unless basic reforms are carried out. This is important for the stability of the country, for all parties involved and something valuable to bequeath to the future generation.
Okay, you may 'organise' elections and win them, use the Kiboko Squad and get 100%, but you should know that those very people you have been cheating understand. Mind you, the very people you train to dehumanise others also get dehumanised in the process. And you can't know what people think. I don't know what they think.
So I think a lot can be done to make the next elections better, so that you win with your 50% when it's what you got. Not this 90% when everybody knows that you didn't even get 40%. We can avoid these circumstances so that the whole country becomes peaceful and stable.
What challenges does the FDC face preparing for the 2011 elections?
It is the same challenge you people (media) are facing. They are the same challenges the religious leaders are facing. They are the same challenges those who are NRM are facing. When you train the Kiboko Squad, you don't know whom they will beat because when those people come to beat, you cannot limit whom they will beat or maim. It could turn out to be your own relative or supporter.
So, when you pass a principle like shoot to kill, and then change it to shoot to maim, you might not know who it will catch. I saw an MP from Western Uganda saying that "too much peace destroyed Rome". But when they announced a list of Cabinet ministers, she was missing, and people in Bushenyi demonstrated. Supposing the policy of shoot to maim had been applied, what would have happened?
So, the challenges facing FDC are national issues and one of them is not having a clear electoral process that is respected. There are many complainants, and most of them are from that ruling party, saying that they have been rigged out. I think that's why independents came about.
The issue of having fair electoral laws, a highly respectable Electoral Commission, and harassment of people you don't agree with and intimidating people in the private sector, and the use of force against those people you consider enemies--all these to me are national challenges. The issue is not who will win the next elections; the issue is to put in place a process through which Ugandans can express their free will.
And as long as you don't have that free will of the people, you are wasting time to say who will win and who will not. If you establish a transparent system, it will not matter who will win. But my experience with by-elections-- I [watched] that of Hon. Abdu Katuntu, I saw one in Isingiro, and the recent elections in Western Uganda--I saw the inner enthusiasm of the people. I think that if the above challenges are sorted out, the NRM party will get a surprise, and that is their main fear.
That includes muzzling of the media, closing down of stations so that Ugandans don't get other points of view. You know when you oppress people, you are also internally oppressed. And that is the reason why those who manage [elections] are not willing to let Ugandans exercise their free will. I have friends who are high up in many circles who are saying, "We can't just allow you to win, there must be methods to ensure that we stay in power."
The Buganda question: You bush-war fighters pledged things that you have refused to fulfill.
I don't know what was promised. And I have seen many claims in the papers. When we were in Kasese, Prince Mutebi came; I think he came with Eriya Kategaya and John Nagenda. I was summoned and given instructions to travel with Prince Mutebi and Nagenda. From Kasese, we went to Fort Portal, then to Mubende, then several days in Luweero areas; we went through Kibibi in Butambala area. Then from Kibibi, we went to Masaka.
Museveni had lengthy discussions with him; we had very many meetings in Masaka. We met many religious leaders, and I had the privilege to have many discussions with him, and I have a lot of respect for him. We went to Mbarara, I took him to the border with Rwanda. At that time the preparations were to take over Kampala.
But the main point, I think, should not be what was promised because there are many people who say that this was promised. And whatever was promised, let it be brought to the public so that it is known.
My concern is not a Buganda question, I think it's a question of how Uganda should be governed. We are many. There are Bagisu, Acholi, Langi. We came from different backgrounds, some had chiefdoms, others didn't have chiefdoms, but we all existed and we had cultures.
You don't have to belong to a huge culture to be recognised. So for me this is not an issue of Obote meeting with Mutesa or Museveni meeting with Kabaka Mutebi, then the Katikkiro meeting [Amama] Mbabazi. This is not the way we are going to run Uganda. I think there should be a national representative forum where Ugandans can meet and say we have undergone many problems, this is how we want to be governed.
We must also have a cut-off point because it's not only Buganda that has been wounded by colonialism. Obote attacked Lubiri but he also abolished other kingdoms. There are many injuries at this point in time.
How were the boundaries of Uganda, internally and externally determined? I mean, if you are to go all the way back, you might even create a regional war. So, how far back do you go? In Ankole what used to be Enganzi's (prime minister) home is now State House. In Bushenyi what used to be a saza chief's house, is State House.
If you are a head of a family with many children, there are those who always make their point. There are also those who are always quiet. You can find that those who are quiet may also be unwell with acute malaria. So there's a need to address the Uganda question that involves the Buganda question as a national question and come out with a national solution.
Because not everybody can get everything, we get something that we can be comfortable with. We have diverse cultures and ways of doing things and this should make our nation richer rather than using them opportunistically and hence create artificial tension.
There has been speculation that you are going to stand for president in 2011 and that you stand a better chance than Col. Besigye to defeat Museveni.
I have read and heard about who should run for President in many parties. And this is not new. In 2000, some people even approached me. I will mention a senior friend with whom we refer to each other as my PR, Mzee Bidandi Ssali. I told him that what was important is not who runs for President but the system put in place that can stand the test of time.
Even at that time I told him that it will be good for the country if we had somebody focused and broad minded, from another part of the country, especially the East or Buganda. To me it was important to create a sense of belonging by all. I even hinted at why he couldn't go for it himself. A number of people eventually coalesced around the person of [the late James] Wapakhabulo or Wapa, as he was commonly called.
He became Speaker and even the effort to make him the NPC was part of the broad plan to expose him to the whole country. Some of us floated this idea, which didn't please other people. We all had our hopes in him, but alas this was not to be. So my main focus and what really is engaging my mind is how to get many qualified people from all parts of the country from whom Ugandans can make an informed choice.
Within FDC there is need to look around and groom many women and men for a healthy internal debate for choosing the best candidate. Yes, like many other Ugandans, I have the qualifications, experience and exposure for that office. But unfortunately, for your information as I have said briefly above, my focus is on what I have told you and it is a number of us trying to bring many more people in leadership.
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