Ruth Choji-Tafida — Chief Winston Odumu caused a stir in the polity when he dragged members of the National Assembly to court over their alleged jumbo pay. RUTH CHOJI-TAFIDA recently engaged him on the issues he wants addressed. Excerpts:

Late last year you took legislators to court. What prompted that action?

I looked at the statistics and realised that these people were receiving so much money. I knew some of them before they became members of the House of Representatives or Senate, but suddenly, there was a tremendous transformation at the expense and detriment of Nigerians. Last year, ASUU and teachers were on strike for a long time, labour unions were threatening strike action, every sector was threatening strike action, but these people did not bother; they were busy buying flashy cars and mansions all over the world!

You remember the global meltdown last year, where America was bailing out companies; in England, the British parliament were honourably cutting down salaries and Nigerian legislators were moving bills to increase their salaries. Countries like Ghana, India and Kenya were forfeiting their salaries. These people actually increased their salaries.

This got me worried, so started looking at what was happening in other countries that practise democracy. In the U.S, senators were cutting down on their travels because there was a programme to be run and they all cut down to save their country's money, but ours were busy accumulating money .

They have refused to reveal what their take home pay is. And they are public servants who are supposed to represent the people. On the internet, you can see the salaries of foreign legislators. Don't forget the case of MPs in England where their allowances were overpaid - they were made to return it and resign. In our own case, the more they accumulate, the better it gets. They pride themselves on their wealth, and buy the latest cars. They buy posh cars, live in expensive estates, the higher the estates, the better it is for them. In some countries, legislators live in hostels and they are only paid when they sit.

Do you have an idea of how much they have spent since they came into office?

We just want Nigerians to know what their legislators earn. We want the courts to compel them to publish what they earn and how they earn it. If Nigerians know, then it would become clear if there is something wrong or not. If your salary is supposed to be N100 per month, and the accountant has been paying you N500, what are you supposed to do? Refund the money and probably face judgement!

Is the suit restricted to the legislators or are there are other people involved?

Right now, it is the National Assembly. As a Nigerian I want to know because the country is in chaos; there is an ongoing financial global meltdown. Recently, Germany and France cut off expenditure, but here we are squandering money.

How come you are narrowing it to the legislature when other tiers of government - executive and the judiciary are there? Are you saying they are not corrupt?

I have not given a clean slate to any tier of government; it's just that we are starting with the legislators. It is a long journey which one has to start somewhere.

The legislators have refused to comment on the money issue.

Last week I was watching a TV programme and the presenter asked Senetor Eme Ekaeate how much she receives as salary and she answered that, it is only the chairman , Senate Committee on Information that can answer that." When he was asked again, he parleyed the question and this is what they have been doing since. None of them has been bold enough to come forward and say how much he receives.

Another legislator said, "No, it is not for television," adding that when the time is right, they will reveal it. You heard what the former president said; the National Assembly is rife with corruption, and you also heard how they described him as the grandfather of corruption. For a man like Obasanjo to say such a thing, it is enough for the EFCC and ICPC to move in; they are waiting for 40 copies of petition with 40 passport photographs.

You and the Senate president are from the same place. What do you think will be the impact of your action on his leadership and Benue State as a whole?

I have been running away from this question. However, the Senate president is my senator because he represents my zone in the Senate. If he was doing well, I would be the first person to say that Senator David Mark is doing well. He prides himself as president of the Senate rather than a representative of the people. He has been there and nothing has changed.

This man travels via helicopter to his village. As the Senate president he cannot call the MD of FERMA and tell him to help his people? He cannot influence the government to help develop his people. Travel from here to Otukpo and you will see that the road is terrible. If he had been plying that road he would have encountered the bumps there. It was David Mark who said that accident on the roads were caused by reckless drivers when the minister of Works, VIO, Road Safety commission and the rest blamed the accidents on bad roads.

In your estimation, how much do you think the legislators have spent in office?

From what we have been reading in the papers, it is well over N460 billion. Find out from the media, legislators get more than teachers in the university. Why should that be? Professors who mould lives and careers receive peanuts while legislators receive more than that. What do they do? Have you ever seen a full House in the chambers? All they do is travel overseas. I have called senators and reps at some point, and it is either he is answering from Dubai, Paris, London and so on.

Don't you think that forcing them to reveal what they earn could cause chaos in the polity?

Why should it cause chaos if they are doing the right thing? If they are doing the right thing it would be okay, but if it is the wrong thing, it will definitely bring chaos. There was chaos in the NigerDelta because the people were not treated right, but now that they are being taken care of , everything has settled.

Nigeria is already regarded as one of the most corrupt countries of the world, don't you think this revelation will further tarnish our image?

Why do you sympathise with the criminals more than the victims? Tarnish what image? In that case, when a man kills his brother the case should be hidden so that the family name would be protected. Is that what you are saying? I was talking to my friend in America and he told me that a rich man in America was jailed recently regarding the ENRON scandal. Why didn't America say it would tarnish their image? Stars are being jailed everyday, why didn't they say it will tarnish the image of America?

You think these foreign countries don't know the massive corruption going on in this country? That is where they go to keep the monies and buy assets. Countries like that have intelligence and keep track of every money that comes in. They know who you are and how much you earn, so when you spend more than what you are supposed to earn, they start keeping tabs on you. Part of this corruption comes from their own people.

It is not re-branding that matters, it is how we go about it. You cannot re-brand with millions of naira like Dora Akunyili is doing. The first thing to do is to re-orientate your people on the right things to do. If you want to see the image of Nigeria change overnight, arrest 30 people, collect all they have stolen, jail them without bail and see if our image won't change without spending all those millions on publicity.

Some believe that you are being sponsored by people who are bent on derailing our democracy.

If somebody is sponsoring me, would I be here? Would somebody sponsor me against 109 senators and 360 members of the House coming from various religious backgrounds? I challenge them to come and prove it.

Nigerians will soon go to the polls, and most of these legislators will either vacate their seats or be returned. What would become of the suit?

It is like what somebody told me recently. A man steals, N1, billion, you arrest him and ask him to return only N250 million and leave him with the rest, and then you grant him bail.

If it was in Nigeria, the owner of Daewoo will never be in jail; if it was in Nigeria, those convicted for Siemens crimes would never have been jailed. In Nigeria we just discuss it. Where they are putting people in jail in other countries, we are still discussing. In the US, the people of Halliburton are out of jail, but we are still investigating and discussing.

We are still discussing the case of Congressman Jefferson. Look at the case of bank chiefs, all the people involved are now on bail. How would other countries take us seriously? It is only here that they give them bail with N10 million with a surety that has a house in Abuja. The next thing, the man will tell you that he has been sick, and forever should be allowed to go abroad for treatment. A minister will steal N16 billion and be made to refund only a N100 million.

Obasanjo accused legislators of being corrupt, do you agree with him?

Well, the man is entitled to his opinion, and I agree with him. They are corrupt. I also agree that Obasanjo is the grandfather of corruption. Ask me why? Under Obasanjo, the minister of Aviation was accused of stealing N16 billion under Obasanjo, the I.G was jailed, during his time was when the bank chiefs perpetrated their acts. I have been saying that COJA, CHOGM should be investigated, and all these things took place under Obasanjo. The police were given lots of money under his tenure, but nothing to show for it.

Go to police headquarters and see the way they sleep on the floor for two years. Why didn't the National Assembly investigate Fani Kayode before they approved him and made him minister? He was not a member of the National Assembly, so why did they ask him to take a bow and go? If the legislators themselves were not corrupt, why didn't they check what the ministries were doing? What are their oversight duties? Of course I agree with what Obasanjo and the legislators said about each other.

If Obasanjo was not corrupt, why didn't he address those ministers' issue? Look at how they sold government houses to their cronies. Where are the power generators that were in Abuja at every junction. Why can't the EFCC and ICPC track the gens. I could go on and on. So I agree that all of them are corrupt.