Johannesburg — Helen Suzman is a former member of Parliament for the Democratic Party, now the opposition Democratic Alliance, in South Africa. She spent 36 years in Parliament in opposition to the apartheid government. In an interview with AllAfricas Ofeibea Quist-Arcton, Mrs Suzman, who is now a respected political commentator, discusses the fall-out of the political storm which erupted in South Africa last week. This followed an announcement by the Minister of Safety and Security, Steve Tshwete, that a 'plot had been uncovered - implicating three senior members of the governing African National Congress Party - to unseat President Thabo Mbeki in a conspiracy which could cause him physical danger.
How do you assess what has happened in South Africa, with talk of a high-level conspiracy against President Thabo Mbeki? You are a veteran of the South African political scene. Does it worry you?
Yes it does worry me. I am disappointed in what is happening in South Africa.
I had hoped for something better. I had hoped the government would be very firm on corruption and stamp it out immediately. I had hoped there would not be foolish statements, such as President Mbeki has made, on HIV/AIDS and the attitude towards Zimbabwe and Mugabe, which I think have undermined the confidence of the outside world in the South African government and has led to the lack of overseas investment, which we desperately need in this country to provide jobs. Unemployment is at a very high, unacceptable level and it is only with overseas investment that we can recover.
What is your view on the statement by the Safety and Security Minister, Steve Tshwete, that it appears there is 'plot against President Thabo Mbeki to oust him, and possibly harm him, by leading members of his own ANC, that is Cyril Ramaphosa, Mathews Phosa and Tokyo Sexwale three people who were also formidable anti-apartheid activists like yourself?
I have no real knowledge of the situation. I am not given any intimate secrets by the ANC and I dont know what evidence Mr Tshwete has. Until I know if there is any evidence, I certainly would not have pronounced on the so-called 'plot. I would be very surprised indeed. I know Ramaphosa very well and I know Tokyo Sexwale very well. Indeed, I first met him when he was [in prison] on Robben Island and I would be amazed if either of those two were involved.
I dont know Mr Phosa, but equally until the allegations are proved, I simply give no credibility to the statement and I think it was irresponsible.
What sort of political climate do you think this creates in South Africa? There are those who are saying that this is paranoia on the part of President Mbeki and his lieutenants, there are others who are saying this is a strategy to force people to show their hand, whether they want to challenge him as president of the governing party, the ANC and, of course, as head of state.
I think the latter assessment is probably correct, that they would like to expose any possibility of people standing against Mr Mbeki. The way to do that is to make these accusations and have their denials which can then be used against them if they are forthcoming. I think that is it. I dont really ascribe to the first possibility.
How do you think this ties in with democracy in South Africa? Because, of course, you and others, Nelson Mandela, Thabo Mbeki himself - and those who stand accused, fought an oppressive, controlling regime. People are now asking 'are we going back to that status quo in the old South Africa?
Well, I dont see any possibility, as yet, of our going into detention without trial on a wide scale and that sort of thing. But, on the other hand, obviously the government, the presidency, does not like criticism and Mr Mbekis spin doctors are making quite sure that they try and track down anybody who is criticizing him.
They do not take well to criticism and that, of course, is one of the undermining factors of democracy. You have got to have an independent press, youve got to have alert civil societies, like NGOS, and youve got to have a really alert opposition if you are to maintain democracy. Those are the three basic conditions.
What do you think has led, in six short years, to a situation where people are now questioning the leadership in South Africa? President Thabo Mbeki is considered a self-styled champion of the continent, who promotes an African renaissance. Now some are saying what is happening in South Africa goes against everything President Mbeki advocates continentally.
I think he ought to pay more attention to what is happening in South Africa and not be so bothered about the rest of the continent. We have got enough problems of our own.
Mr Mbeki is trying very hard to creep out from the shadow of our icon and that is, of course, Nelson Mandela. Thats a very hard act to follow I must say. And I think he is trying to establish himself as a different personality, therefore he is taking these rather odd directions, with the renaissance and his dissident stand on HIV/AIDS and his refusal to criticize the appalling land reform act of Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe.
So I think Mbeki has made misjudgments in this respect and it surprises me, because Mr Mbeki is not an unintelligent person by any means.
Indeed, many people point to him as a man of vision, even perhaps more so than Nelson Mandela when it comes to strategy and government?
Of course, Mr Mbeki has had 27 years out of prison, and then the big world, while Nelson Mandela was languishing, you might say, on Robben Island. Mbeki, though, is arrogant, I think, and he doesnt like criticism, whereas Mandela was so sure of himself that he could accept criticism quite readily, amazingly so, really. So, it is a matter of personality I think and Mbeki, as I say, is struggling to crawl from under the shadow of the great icon.
Do veteran anti-apartheid stalwarts like you have the ear of President Mbeki? Do you feel that you can freely talk to him about these things? Does he consult you?
Oh no, not at all! Nor do I feel I can go and ask to have a consultation with him. No, no, no, he doesnt. I have much more to do with Mr Mandela, not a great deal because he is a very busy man and I dont like to pester him. But I do know that if I have anything really serious and I want to go and talk to him, I do get access to Mr Mandela. I havent even tried with Mr Mbeki.
I dont know him very well, though he is perfectly friendly when we meet at functions. I know his wife quite well because we sit on the same education trust. So, I know Mrs Mbeki quite well, but I cant say I know him very well.
How do you see the future of South Africa under Thabo Mbeki for the remainder of this current presidential term, which ends in 2004? The national ANC congress, that should decide the leader of the party - and therefore the leader of the country, should the ANC win the 2004 elections - is not scheduled until December next year which seems a long way away. But I suppose for those who are jockeying for position and power, its close.
I think it is close and I think that is why Mr Mbeki, on the advice, no doubt, of his spin doctors, is trying to do damage control. You will have noticed that he doesnt say much on HIV/AIDS these days. He has kept very quiet on that. And, for the first time, there has been some criticism of (President Robert) Mugabe and the actions of the so-called war veterans in Zimbabwe. They have called in the High Commissioner of Zimbabwe to explain why it is that South African businesses are being invaded and businessmen being threatened.
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It is the first really active step that we know Mr Mbeki has taken. So, from that point of view he is obviously trying to do a little bit of damage control to re-establish himself in the eyes of his own people, because they are the ones who are going to vote him in or out as the continuing leader of the party and therefore of the presidency.
Are you confident in Thabo Mbeki as your president?
I am disappointed. I think he has made some big mistakes, bad judgmental mistakes. I know he is trying to correct them and I hope he succeeds. You know, I have nothing against him personally. I find him personable and intelligent and so on, but I think there are mistakes being made. Again, too, with the corruption and the whole brouhaha about the governments arms procurement deal, I think that should be solved as quickly as possible because I think it gives a very bad impression.
Have you joined the ranks of the afro-pessimists or are you still confident about the future of your country, South Africa?
I am not confident, but I am hopeful. I am not an optimist. I am one of these people who look on things with a beady eye. But I am hopeful, because we have very great things going for us, after all. We have got good resources, we have got an excellent infrastructure in this country, we have good industries and parts of the country are good agriculturally, and so on.
Incidentally, the fiscal policy has been very reassuring, rather different to the original ANC determination to nationalize everything in sight. So, from that point of view, the fiscal policy I would say is something that gives one confidence in the future. And I hope it gives overseas investors second thoughts about not investing in this country. They must put money into South Africa, not money in the stock exchange. I am asking for projects, businesses that will provide employment for our millions of unemployed.
