Pretoria — "Without peace in this region, without peace and development in central Africa we couldn't possibly talk about peace in the rest of Africa". The words of the South African president, Thabo Mbeki, encapsulated a reality that was not lost on the African leaders and dignitaries who gathered in Pretoria on Tuesday for the signing of a peace pact between the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) and Rwanda.
Mbeki, the first chairman of the newly-launched African Union, is also the new facilitator in the Congolese peace process.
The two signatories to the bilateral peace and security accord initialled in Pretoria were President Paul Kagame of Rwanda and his Congolese counterpart, Joseph Kabila. They pledged their commitment to work towards ending the multi-layered war in the Great Lakes region that has drawn in rival foreign armies, as well as homegrown Congolese rebels, backed by neighbouring countries, namely Rwanda and Uganda.
Under the terms of the agreement, giant Congo in the heart of the continent, has guaranteed tiny Rwanda's security, especially at its eastern borders with its huge neighbour. Rwanda has always maintained that it cannot pull its troops out of Congo unless its frontiers are safe.
In return, Rwanda has pledged to withdraw its forces from the DRC, as long as the Kinshasa government sticks to its commitment to neutralise, disarm and repatriate armed Rwandan Hutu militias (known as 'Interahamwe') and former elements of the Rwandan army (ex-FAR). Kagame and Kigali say these armed groups were responsible for the genocide in Rwanda in 1994.
In an interview with allAfrica.com's Ofeibea Quist-Arcton and Reuters correspondent Manoah Esipisu -- preceded by a news briefing which followed the signing of the agreement in Pretoria -- President Kagame outlined his vision of how to achieve, ensure and maintain peace in Congo and Rwanda, which he says will spill over into the rest of central Africa .
President Kagame, do you think Tuesday's peace pact will work?
The important thing is that we have met and we have agreed on two key things, that we shall do all in our power to ensure that the (Rwandan) militias (based in the Democratic Republic of Congo) are dealt with, demobilised and repatriated so that they cease to be a threat to our two countries or any other country. The second issue is to ensure that all foreign troops that are not Congolese leave the DRC.
Among the foreign armies in Congo is Rwanda's, and we are committed to leaving. We shall leave provided our security concerns are dealt with as we have agreed. We are prepared to implement our side of the agreement as the Rwandan government. And we have a feeling that both parties are this time committed to ensuring that there is peace, so we believe this can be implemented. We are ready to implement the deal and to ensure that peace is restored.
We will hold monthly review meetings among heads of state - the president of South Africa, Thabo Mbeki, myself and President Joseph Kabila of the DRC. And we shall meet either in the presence of the United Nations secretary general himself, Kofi Annan, or with his representative. This is necessary to ensure that the agreement remains on track and any new hurdles are removed.
So do you consider you've made progress in Pretoria?
I think today was a positive step. This is a big step in resolving the conflict so that the Congolese people can be able to live in peace and struggle to build their country. Our final objective is to enable the people of Congo and the people of Rwanda and the rest of the region to live together in peace as has been before.
What more is required?
Much as the two parties - Rwanda and the Democratic Republic of Congo -- are very important, without the support of the entire continent of Africa, without the support of the international community, it is therefore important that these other parties realise that it is important for them to play their part.
It would be very helpful if they got involved directly and if they were able to use their capacities to try and help these African efforts so that peace will hold. We are sure that, if they came on board and supported these efforts, we shall be able to move forward, because it is important that since some of them have historically been part of the problem, they cannot escape the responsibility of being part of the solution.
Again I am saying this based on the fact that there has been more paying of lip service to finding the solutions to these problems than actually applying these capacities, building on the good will that we are trying to build, signified by reaching this understanding.
So what are the immediate priorities as far as Rwanda is concerned?
We have to move step by step and look at the priority areas. The issue of the 'Interahamwe' can be easily dealt with if we look at it at different levels. One level is at the political level. I think once the parties concerned with dealing with the situation in the Democratic Republic of Congo and Rwanda get involved, there will be progress.
But we must, first of all, make sure that these people (ex-FAR and 'Interahamwe') do not get support from anywhere and, if we do that, based on the political will, it is possible to deal with the problem.
The other level that has been ongoing up to this moment has been to fight them where they are armed and have been wreaking havoc within the Democratic Republic of Congo itself and with the intention of crossing into Rwanda. The problem has been dealt with militarily.
So there are these two levels that should apply: at the political level to cut off the lifeline of these (armed militia) groups so that they do not continue to be a problem and then, where that has not happened, the military part has played a role. A combination of both is possible.
I would concentrate on ensuring that, with the help and the understanding we have reached with the DRC and with the assistance of President Thabo Mbeki of South Africa and the secretary-general of the UN, I think the best thing is to ensure that these people are not supported and do not continue to become a problem. They should not be supported or helped by anybody.
This is really an obligation of the international community, which, on the one hand, seems to understand the problem, because they recognise it. But on the other, they don't do much to deal with it.
The second part should be, in order of priority, I would say to focus on the (Hutu 'Interahamwe' and ex-FAR) leaders. Because the leaders of the genocidal groups, exploiting the lack of political will to deal with the problem, continue to organise people (in Congo) and constitute them into a problem, not only for Rwanda but, I think, eventually for Congo and for the whole region.
These people represent a threat to our country. They pose a problem in and outside Rwanda.
Once we agree on that, and numbers are not a factor, the issue is that they pose a threat, they are a serious problem.
So we will focus on those. On the question of leaders it is easy to establish their responsibility, relating them to the genocide and therefore justice will play its part.
What about those who are not leaders and 'genocidal forces' as you call them?
When we talk about the 'rank and file,' we ensure the safety of these people as long as they are not getting help from anybody. Two: if we are pursuing their leaders, then I think you have to find a way of communicating to them and asking them to make a choice.
But we can reintegrate them. If they we want to come back home, we will welcome them. We want them to come back home so that we can reintegrate them. If they have fears, saying that they can't come back because of this or that reason, we can find some mechanism of reassuring them that nothing will happen to them. And we can work in the same framework to provide that assurance.
Now if they don't want to come home for other reasons, then still we can find out where to place them and be sure that they cannot cause problems to Rwanda and I'm sure nobody wishes them to cause problems for the Congo.
So we have to find a way of treating these people. But there is a choice they can make.
They can make a choice to come back home or the parties concerned (in the conflict who are signatories to the Pretoria agreement) can sit together and say, 'here is a problem, there are people here, we don't want them to turn into a problem, but they are saying this, how do we address it?' We are ready to move into that discussion and see how to address that.
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I don't think there is so much complication as such and that we can't find a solution, but I would rather move according to those priorities I mentioned to you.
So, I think if we deal with the leadership and if we deal with the political part of cutting off the supply lines for these forces, then the rest becomes easier to handle.
President Kagame, how can you be sure that in rounding up the ex-FAR and Interahamwe, you won't also be rounding up people who had nothing to do with the genocide in Rwanda in 1994?
Let me say that among these groups fighting there could possibly be people who were not directly involved in the genocide. It is also true that mainly the leaders of this groups are actually implicated in the genocide. We have the whole list of the names of people who are currently playing a leadership role, to lead these groups. We have had the opportunity to share the names of these people, to present them to the UN and others who have been interested.
You can't start sorting out those, trying to look for those, who are not implicated in the genocide and so on and so forth unless and until you have dealt with a part of the leadership and the main bulk of them that actually have a direct hand in the genocide.
This is where we have to concentrate our efforts and, in the process of dealing with that, then it becomes easier to identify among these forces those who are not implicated in the genocide. In this case, they could be helped to come back home and be reintegrated like the rest of the Rwandese who have been reintegrated as it was done in 1997, when over one and a half million Rwandans were repatriated to Rwanda and were reintegrated into the rest of society.
Much has been said about unresolved political issues within Rwanda itself, now the spotlight will be on Kigali. When do you think that you will be holding democratic elections in your country?
The transition period is ending next year, shortly after we should be able to have elections. We are going to protect the rights of every individual in Rwanda, from the minority and the majority.
