Durban, South Africa — One of the historic but little publicised decisions at the recent summit of the African Union in Durban, South Africa was that five of the 10 commissioners - who will make up the leadership of the new secretariat - would be women. None of the 53 African heads of state, whose countries currently make up the membership of the AU, is a woman.
Women were noticeably absent from the structures of the Organisation of African Unity (OAU), with virtually no positions of influence within the continental body during its 39-year existence. That is set to change in the OAU's successor, the AU, says Frene Ginwala, herself the first woman to occupy the position of Speaker in South Africa's parliament, appointed after the first non-racial elections in 1994.
The decision to ensure that half the AU commissioners are women came after Ginwala issued a stern warning to the gathering in Durban. "The relative absence of women at this meeting does not augur well for democracy on our continent," she told the summit. The five new women commissioners, and the five others, will be drawn from Africa's five regions, a decision Ginwala called a "victory for democracy".
The AU protocol also stipulates that at least one woman from every country should be represented in the proposed pan-African parliament, one of the 17 institutions of the African Union.
Ginwala went further. She suggested that all five members of the AU's Peace and Security Council -- intended to help curb continental conflict -- should be women "because women don't make war".
In this interview with allAfrica.com's Ofeibea Quist-Arcton, Frene Ginwala explains why women's contribution is so critical to Africa.
What precisely was your point about the representation, or lack of representation, of women in the African Union?
What I was saying was that if we are talking about democracy, then clearly women have got to be part of it, otherwise you've got 'half democracy'. That's a basic point. And what we had here in Durban, in the delegations, was an almost total absence of women.
So we need women. And I urged heads of state that, when they compose their delegations for the next summit, they must make sure there are women as part of it.
But why is it that the AU, which is meant to unify Africa, has been conceived without thinking of women, and the role of women, as equals?
Because men have been doing the conceiving, men do the writing, and because women are absent. In the parliamentary protocol, we have ensured that every delegation, from every country, will have to include one woman. Now we've got to see, when we implement; we need to make sure that delegations that come without women are not allowed in. You see, that's the kind of toughness you need to do it.
Now if heads of state set such an example, we could begin to do it. They don't have a protocol, but it is in their discretion to ensure women are part of it.
There is a Peace and Security Council (of the AU) and five people who have to advise; I argued, - I made a joke partly - that those five people should be women, because women are not the ones who make war. But I made a joke of it. I said if they are really wise - the heads of state - they will appoint all women, because women are the peacemakers.
But the irony is a story in the newspapers
Indeed, I hear that when you referred to the Council of the Wise . . .
. . . They said the Council of the Wives! So, this also reflects a kind of thinking amongst men. Now the Peace and Security Council is the most important organ of the AU one of the most important. Now the media are so ignorant that, the minute they saw 'women', they assumed I was talking about 'wives'.
The problem is, though, that people are always going to say, "Quotas? Women? No, it doesn't work' . . ."
Who is people? Sorry. The point is, it's not 'people' who are saying it, it's men. And women had better be shouting and saying "No!" We need to challenge these people who talk about democracy and ignore women.
And it's not just an African problem. Look at the absence of women in the US Senate and the US Congress and in a lot of European countries. So it's not something that is it's very easy for them to lecture Africa on democracy. What about their own? They do not have women there and they had better have women if they are talking about democracy. It's universal.
So what's your message to the United States, for example?
Firstly, by realising they are not democratic and by challenging the basic concepts of American democracy. America proposes democracy all over the world. It spouts it. But let's look at that and say, "Are you democratic? How can you be when you exclude the majority of your population?" That's a starting point. That recognition. And stop pointing fingers at other countries. This is my constant message to the United States. Put your own house in order.
But aren't we women in Africa part of the problem? Don't we dig our own graves by not actively promoting women and always lurking in the background?
No, no, no. It's not that we don't promote women. The point is, it's very easy to fall into that trap, because that's the men's excuse. [They say,] "Where are the women? We can't find them?"
They are under their noses! Women are very capable. The [men] will not look.
Why don't we women step up?
Well that's what we are doing and that's what we need to do more about. So the problem lies with women, but also, remember, our social and economic conditions which are not always easy for women to overcome. Articulate, educated women can perhaps battle that; but your rural women, where the real problem lies, there it is much more difficult. So we have got to create those conditions in society that will allow women to move up.
But in the meantime we shouldn't fall into the trap that men place for us, that it is 'the women's problem'. It is society's problem. It is how you define and see democracy. Nobody told black South Africans 'it's your fault,' you see. Therefore we did make the struggle ourselves. It is also important for women to do that. But we need to ensure that this happens at every level.
At the AU, you have got the summit heads of state. Okay, we don't have a woman head of state. But if we did, they would say 'you see, it's fine, we have one woman head of state'. That's not the issue.
Tokenism?
Exactly. Well no, because the woman might have got there on her merit. But it's an excuse they use.
Look at the Council of Ministers how many women foreign ministers are there?
There used to be one in Botswana, now there's one in South Africa and there may be one or two others.
Well this is the point, you see! Then you've got the secretariat, which now will become the AU Commission. You would have to check, but I believe we will probably end up with equal representation on the Commission. If we do, it's an incredible victory. We need to call them [out] and make sure it happens.
Now we have at least one woman prime minister in Africa, in Senegal; we have a woman vice president in Uganda; and we have you, Frene Ginwala, an influential voice in Africa because, of course, you are the Speaker of perhaps one of the most democratic parliaments on the continent. But I'm asking whether your voice is, in some ways, a role model for other women, encouraging them to step up and be counted and compete equally with men?
I'm always a bit wary of role models. I think all of us who have overcome obstacles, people need to know that we had to overcome obstacles. But we shouldn't say, 'Oh, I made it, why can't others?' We have an obligation to use our office, our positions and our voices.
What about saying, 'I made it, you can too,' to other women?
No, I totally disagree with that, because each circumstance is different and we have that obligation. Here in South Africa, we made it because we believe in democracy. This is my point. It's the definition of democracy that we've got to rethink, but without women it can't be democratic. Full stop.
So are African leaders the problem in that case?
No, African society. And leaders are a product of that society. So we've got to start changing at every level. It's not just at the top. Sometimes if we focus only at the top, they have one or two women and they think that's the end of the problem. It isn't. In South Africa we have had this incredible number of women [at leadership level] in eight years. But, at a day-to-day level, we have not succeeded as much as we need to in changing the lives of women at the grassroots. We have provided water and so on, but we still have a long way to go.
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Are you hopeful? Are you hopeful that things will really change for women in this much-touted African Union that is part of the continent's renaissance and that is meant to change Africa?
Yes, it will change, because we have already articulated it. If you look, there is already change. There was supposed to be a topic on the agenda on gender mainstreaming. We didn't reach that, we have deferred that for the next time, but the papers will be there. A number of heads of state were supposed to speak on that. Go and interview them. Ask them, "what did you say, what were you going to say?" The papers, we agreed, are meant to be released. Women should comment on that. If it says gender mainstreaming, let's look at it and say what is this gender mainstreaming?
So, I think it's got to be done at all levels. Yes it will change. You see, I am a parliamentary Speaker, but there are a large numbers of women deputy speakers on the continent now, partly because I was high profile. Because South Africa's democracy was a media event, suddenly people said 'Oh, women can be speakers!' Before that, nobody thought of it and I think this was a demonstration of it. Our government has been very good. 38 percent of our executive are women that's ministers and deputy ministers. There's no quota. But it is an awareness that women are capable, you see.
Frene Ginwala, you say we are products of our society, but when you look at another developing continent, Asia, for example, in some ways many people might say that Asian women are perhaps in a worse position than African women. Yet Asia has spawned women leaders from Indira Gandhi onward. Latin America perhaps not, but if you look at other parts of Asia, the Philippines and Indonesia
But that's what I'm saying. If you just aim at a head of state, you don't change society. That is important. I don't want to underplay it. But it is important how the individuals there are using their function. If you just strut around and say 'I've made it,' then it's no good.
But it's also an alibi. They say 'look, we've got a woman head of state, we've got a woman prime minister'. It's important, but it is not enough. And it's the 'enough' I'm talking about; that at every level of society we've got to move and change the conditions in which women have to live.
