We have reached a level of nepotism in Mauritius whereby there is really state capture. Are all those political nominees deserving of the positions they occupy? And when you don't deserve a position and you are nominated to it, you become very complacent. So many of these nominees are so complacent that there is state capture.
Talk about our ailing democracy has been back on the front burner after yet another report which highlights that we are sliding more and more in the indexes of democracy, transparency and accountability. We raise these issues with Transparency Mauritius' chairperson Lovania Pertab.
Let's start with the report of V-Dem on Democracy in Mauritius. The report has highlighted our further slide in all the indexes. Did that come as a surprise to you?
No, we all knew our democracy was being eroded and Transparency Mauritius has been saying that for a while now so the report didn't come as a surprise. What did come as a surprise to me was to see that the Seychelles were doing better than us. I have lived in the Seychelles and I know that democracy was not the main theme of the country. However, since the change in the leadership and since our democracy has been sliding, they are now doing better than us. In fact, as you know. V-Dem said we are now holding by a thread.
What does that exactly mean?
To begin with, we no longer have clean elections.
Does that mean elections are rigged?
I wouldn't know about that exactly as we don't have any proof of that but what we do know is that there has been a lot of vote buying in whatever form it might be. Those research institutes are now aware of every detail that goes on in the country.
What do they base themselves on?
They have quite a few parameters. They have around 500 indicators and indexes which they consult to come to the conclusions that they come to. V-Dem, from what I have gathered, is a very serious institute doing research all over the world so we have to take their report very seriously.
Parliament is not able to do its job and if it is not doing its job, there will be no transparency or accountability and there might be a series of cases of fraud and corruption that remain undetected because parliament is not able to deal with them.
Are we?
You know, elections have to rhyme with transparency and accountability. V-Democracy pointed out the lack of clean elections and also the fact that journalists cannot do their job properly and that private broadcasting entities have also been facing problems such as difficulties with licences etc. Those details may seem minute but they are eroding our democracy. Let's look at other areas that have been contributing to our slide: parliament is not able to do its job; it is not sitting all the time; you have a non-elected speaker ordering elected members out.
Just a little bracket about the non-elected speaker: it is not only under this government that the speaker has not been elected. It has been like that under other governments too, the reasoning being that the speaker does not participate in the electoral campaign and keeps his independence. Isn't that a good thing?
It may be so if you have the right person for the right job. If you have the wrong person, as we now do, who is not objective - it is obvious to everybody - or trying to be, parliament becomes grotesque. At Transparency Mauritius, we have been saying that parliament is not able to do its job and if it is not doing its job, there will be no transparency or accountability and there might be a series of cases of fraud and corruption that remain undetected because parliament is not able to deal with them.
And members of government don't make it any easier by spending most of the allotted time reading answers, do they?
Yes. I think it is a mind-set. If you mind is geared towards democracy, transparency and accountability, you will do well as a leader because you believe in those norms. But if your mind-set is only geared towards winning the election and Mauritius being what it is, you only follow that path and the country goes down. All the indicators are showing that: Transparency International has shown that all the indicators are going down, the MO Ibrahim has shown that we are not doing as well as we used to, V-Dem report we have talked about...Even on the gender parity index of the World Economic Forum, we are 110 out of 155 countries!
There is a lot of suspicion due to the lack of transparency. If the electoral commissioner refuses to answer in court, that creates suspicion. The electoral commissioner is not a political appointee so he should do his job according to the parameters of decency, transparency and accountability.
So how is this going to end?
(Laughs) Many people have asked me that question, including one ambassador.
And what was your answer?
It is very difficult to answer that question because Mauritius being Mauritius, people only show their frustration when they go and vote.
But when you talk to people, do you get the impression that they understand the issues of democracy or are they just worried about where their next meal is coming from?
When you talk to the youth, you can tell they understand the system. But they don't tell you whether they agree with it or not. They are aware of the situation, though they are not activists; they are dormant. For how long, we don't know. Older people, on the other hand, are used to their comfort.
The youth you said are not talking, is it out of fear?
Someone who lives in a village told me: "We do as if we were with the ruling party because we are fearful for our children. Is it the norm for everyone? I don't know. It's very difficult to tell. What I can tell you is that there is a lot of suspicion due to the lack of transparency. If the electoral commissioner refuses to answer in court, that creates suspicion. The electoral commissioner is not a political appointee so he should do his job according to the parameters of decency, transparency and accountability.
What about the Electoral Supervisory Commission that has clearly partisan people on its board?
We have reached a level of nepotism in Mauritius whereby there is really state capture. Are all those political nominees deserving of the positions they occupy? And when you don't deserve a position and you are nominated to it, you become very complacent. So many of these nominees are so complacent that there is state capture.
Can you explain the concept of state capture to those who don't understand it?
First, you have nepotism, which means you appoint your family and friends to positions of power. These constitute a network and the state has a say in all those institutions that are supposed to be totally independent like the Electoral Commissioner's Office, the Electoral Supervisory Commission, the Bank of Mauritius, the Independent Commission Against Corruption, the police...When I talk about state capture, I am not just talking about the heads of those institutions but also about their boards. At the end of the day, what is going to happen here is exactly what happened in South Africa: Zuma, while in power, infiltrated all the institutions, including radios and state television etc. It was so obvious that there was state capture that there was a commission of inquiry about state capture and the reports shows how it operated.
But here, there can never be a commission of inquiry on state capture as the commission would have to be appointed by the president on the advice of the prime minister...
(Laughs) Yes, we are worse off than many African states. To go back to the gender parity we discussed earlier, if you look at Rwanda, 50% of their parliamentarians are women. How many do we have here? Eleven?
How important is that, though? When I hear some feminists talk about gender equality, they always talk about the number of women in parliament, at times in some sort of self-serving way. Are the women sitting in parliament today better than the men there? How many of them stand and defend democracy, accountability and transparency, or equal opportunities or any ideals for that matter?
No one. Because it is a male-dominated sector. That means that the men who appoint the candidates for election appoint women who show allegiance to him not capable women.
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So what is the point of fighting for more women to go and warm up seats in the national assembly?
Some women were indeed a very bad example. A case in point was having our first woman president. And look what happened. At the level of Transparency International, there is a narrative that women are less likely to be corrupted than men. Research has shown that and it is due to the fact that women are less adventurous; they don't like to take risks. And engaging in corruption is taking risk. Now it would seem that this risk does not bother some women in Mauritius.
Isn't that due to the perception of impunity that has been surrounding acts of corruption in this country recently?
It is. Let us define corruption. There are three types of corruption: petty corruption like a policeman asking a motorist for a bit of money, grand corruption like fraud among civil servants, and there is political corruption. Unfortunately, in Mauritius, you always hear about petty corruption and those who get prosecuted are guilty of petty corruption. We rarely see cases of grand corruption. We don't know what happened in the St Louis case, for example. As for political corruption, we hear even less about it. This is why people lose hope because you can't have a whole institution dealing just with petty corruption.
A lot of people don't understand the cost of corruption to the country. What exactly is the cost of corruption?
In Mauritius, we all know that there are many cases of corruption. Obviously, the money which should have gone towards social projects is being syphoned into a few people's pockets. I mean if you are building a road which is not really necessary for citizens, it means that that money is not going to the poor, it is not going towards health, it is not improving the education system etc. So you as a citizen get fewer services and you also become poorer. Unfortunately, our intellectuals remain silent on many issues. If we all keep quiet, the situation is going to get much worse. Many people are leaving the country. That means they are not happy with the situation here. If the situation continues as it is, we will be a country of old people and drug addicts.
