Ugandans, more so, those opposed to the National Resistance Movement, are not satisfied with the performance of opposition members of parliament, Robert Kyagulanyi Ssentamu, aka Bobi Wine, said at the weekend.
He said he expects more fire and more bite from them. Interviewed by Muhammad Kakembo at his One Love Beach at Busabala in Wakiso district, the opposition National Unity Platform president said he is equally frustrated by some of his MPs who hobnob with the dictatorship.
He applauded Mityana Municipality MP Francis Zaake, who vigorously fights for the downtrodden Ugandans using what his critics call unparliamentary tactics.
Are you satisfied with your MPs' work in Parliament?
Of course, I'm not satisfied. If I was satisfied, I wouldn't keep pushing them. I wouldn't have to appear in Parliament. I wouldn't have to call out those that go astray.
So, what are you dissatisfied with?
I would rather talk about the good things that some do. I appreciate what they articulate. I appreciate what Honorable Joel Ssenyonyi is doing, as do many other MPs. I recently expressed my appreciation for the assertive stance that Honorable [Francis] Zaake took. But I'm also equally frustrated by some of our MPs who tend to hobnob with the dictatorship, but like I said, it's all work in progress.
You attended the launch of an alternative budget last week in parliament by your MPs. Do you agree with that approach to countering the government?
I went there first to use that platform to speak to the nation. I have used various platforms before. I went there because that alternative budget would be the perfect solution for Uganda. It would be the first national budget of my presidency. It has a human rights orientation.
What are human rights--the right to health, the right to education, the right to a better life? So, just like we articulated it there, it speaks to our policies.
Regime apologists want to project us as an angry and hungry people who simply say Museveni must go without offering alternatives for Uganda. We were saying once again that this is what we want to do for Uganda, and this is the money we want to use.
You have many supporters in jail; how does an alternative budget help them?
It helps because they are in prison for what I said in Parliament. They are in prison because they want that alternative budget to be the official budget. They were trying to put the right person in power so that their budget would be implemented.
We have raised their plight everywhere. Like I have said before, we don't want to be seen as people simply fighting for liberty. You know human rights are not only about liberty or not being in prison. No, human rights are also about having your money work for you and all the other things we mentioned in our budget.
When you do that, you confirm that Museveni is the legitimate president and the only thing you can do is provide alternatives?
No, I don't. I have said it many times that we are under a military dictatorship. But besides Museveni, what would you do if Museveni died tomorrow or if, finally, he realized that his rule was too nasty and decided to give power back to the people? And then what? That was what I was talking about.
It is important for people to know that we are not only trying to remove Museveni. We want to remove Museveni and implement the agenda we talked about in Parliament. Remember, I told our people that yes, these proposals are amazing, they are brilliant, but they cannot be implemented because we are under a dictatorship, whose only preoccupation is keeping power.
Some people say the politics of offering alternatives plays into Museveni's hands. He wants you to be preoccupied with that instead of threatening his hold on power...
Well, it depends on how you look at it. There are some people who think that when you keep quiet, you are playing into Museveni's hands. At least rattle him. We have been told that if you can't run, at least walk; if you can't walk, crawl, but at least keep moving. So, if you can't implement the budget because you are not in power, at least keep articulating it so that it sinks into the minds of the people.
Many NUP supporters believe they haven't gotten what they expected from that parliament. A parliament that simply legislates, yet hundreds of people are in prison. They believe MPs must have more fire. Are they right?
I agree with that. I also believe that there should be more fire in parliament, and I keep calling for more fire. What they are doing is good, but is it good enough? No; can they do better, Yes.
It's been two years since the 2021 election. What things do you think, with the benefit of hindsight, you should have done better?
I think we did everything within our power. We couldn't have done anything better. Is there something we can do better now, I guess yes. Put more trust and focus in the population, I suppose.I'm preparing them to take charge, to take matters into their hands like it is in Kenya. But by and large, we did everything that we should have done.
Are you frustrated with Ugandans compared to, for example, Kenyans?
Honestly, sometimes yes, I am frustrated, but again, I'm quick to understand. There has never been such a violation of human rights. I mean, the regimes in Nairobi have not been as violent as Gen. Museveni is. I also understand Ugandans and know that patriotism grows.
The citizens of Kenya are perhaps more patriotic; they can push back more firmly than Ugandans. You remember in 2018, when I was abducted and my driver was killed. It was the Kenyans who inspired us to protest. So, Kenyans are at a slightly higher level of political sensitization and awakening. But we are getting there.
Just like myself, at one time I was not as patriotic and concerned as I am today. I also believe other people will get an awakening. It has taken Raila Odinga of Kenya some time to constantly talk to the people of Kenya about their rights and the need to stand firm, but now they are there.
In Kenya, do you sympathize more with Raila Odinga than with William Ruto?
I sympathize with the people of Kenya; I respect them, and for me, it's the people. I don't take sides in matters involving a sovereign state, but I also don't compromise about the truth.
Last week, two Members of Parliament, Allan Ssewanyana and Muham- mad Ssegirinya, were at your party headquarters, but you were not there?
First, on that day, I was in Gomba to check on my homeboys and girls, who lost three children--killed by a Sino truck, that rammed into Kasaka Secondary School. So, I was not there. But I was very vocal, like other Ugandans here and abroad, about the imprisonment of Hon. Ssegirinya and Hon. Ssewanyana because I knew they were innocent. Now that they are out of prison, they can speak for themselves. Why do you want me to speak for them?
You seem unconvinced by the circumstances of their release?
You are speculating about an outspoken man. I have spoken, and I said I welcomed them from prison, and I hope to hear from them. For us, we don't speak in parables, we speak openly, and we don't speak for our comrades, who can speak for themselves. So why don't you let them speak for themselves?
Whether I am convinced or not, we see great people by their actions, okay? Maybe you are the one who is not convinced. But many times, people doubt, and they are either proven right or proven wrong.
Some have nudged you to negotiate the release of all political prisoners; isn't that a fair suggestion to make?
Negotiate what? Their right to negotiate whether they are free to comment on the affairs of their country or support the person who runs for president. Negotiate how? What would the terms be? What would I be required to give in exchange for the freedom and rights of my people, because I know they were arrested for supporting me.
They were arrested for desiring change, they were arrested for exercising their constitutional rights. So, now what's the negotiation about, whether they should stop exercising their constitutional rights. What I want is the freedom of all political prisoners, what I must give in exchange I don't know.
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In many countries, they always negotiate the release of political prisoners, but that doesn't make the cause any weaker...
These people were arrested and charged with crimes. If you arrest somebody who you say is a criminal and take him to prison, and somebody must negotiate his release, then what are the laws for? What are the courts for? Ssegirinya and Ssewanyana were charged with killing more than 25 people in Masaka. Now if I must negotiate their release, what happens to the people who were killed, who killed them, and why?
Isn't that a hardline position to take, especially when you have people who have been in prison since 2019.
I will tell you; I cannot stop fighting for my rights, I cannot surrender to a dictatorship. I cannot do that even if we were in a country that didn't have a constitution, and didn't have the law. If you read my constitution, there are those rights. They are God given and confirmed by that constitution. So, I cannot forego them because that will be resigning to slavery, and I'm nobody's slave.
Have you talked with the jailed political prisoners to hear their opinions on this matter?
There are two ways to have freedom: either the law gives it to you or you fight for it. That's why there has never been a freedom negotiator in history. There are only freedom fighters; so, we don't negotiate our freedom.
That position doesn't look like a consensus position in your own party...
I'm the leader of the party, and I'm the chief spokesperson of that party, and I'm saying that the party I lead will not negotiate our God given rights. Anybody who says otherwise, has their right, but they don't represent us. We don't negotiate our rights.
Gen Muhozi Kainerugaba, who used to be your friend, has tweeted calling for a meeting with you?
First, you must be sure of the state he was in when he tweeted that.
Let's assume the state was proper, would you take it?
Thank you very much.
