Dar es Salaam — Tanzania stands out in the Great Lakes region as one of the few countries that is not in turmoil. Instead, this large East African country is an oasis of relative peace - home to tens of thousands of refugees who have fled conflicts in the Democratic Republic of Congo, Burundi and Rwanda. Tanzania is also an advocate of regional peace agreements and host to the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda.
So just how well does Tanzania actually get on with its neighbours? The country's Foreign Minister, Jakaya Mrishu Kikwete, in Dar es Salaam told allAfrica.com's Ofeibea Quist-Arcton about his country's regional partnerships and the revived East African Community, as well as the region's tensions - the struggle to end conflicts, mount peace-keeping efforts and cope with Tanzania's burgeoning refugee population.
Minister Kikwete, you recently received President Joseph Kabila of the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) in Tanzania; I believe he was feted very much as a son of the nation because, of course, he was brought up in Tanzania. Does Tanzania have good relations with the DRC?
Yes, we have good relations with the DRC, of course. And the reception that President Kabila got when he came here is a demonstration of that good relationship. If the relations were bad, it wouldnt have happened.
How come Tanzania, out of all the neighbours of the Democratic Republic of Congo, has not got sucked into the war. How come you have avoided that?
Well, we have no business to do in the Congo. Why should we be involved? Because those who are involved have a reason and we dont have a reason for that.
I suppose Tanzania is busy hosting tens of thousands of refugees from the Democratic Republic of Congo so, in a way, you do have a reason.
Well, we host them, but do you want us to go there and create more refugees to come over here? Because when there is war thats when you have more refugees. Of course, as I said, we dont have a reason for being involved, so we have kept out of it. First of all, we have not been asked to get involved and, individually, we dont have any reason for getting involved. And we thought it might be more useful if we were not involved, so that we can be of help to those who are involved. And certainly that is what we are doing.
Mr Kikwete, how useful has Tanzania been in trying to resolve the conflict in the DRC, either by talking to Uganda, Rwanda, or directly to Kinshasa, or to the rebels or to any of those who have been drawn into the conflict from further afield, for example, Zimbabwe, Namibia and Angola - and even Zambia?
We have been quite useful. We have been playing it quietly. But we had a very substantial contribution towards the Lusaka Agreement itself, from the preliminary stages - developing the concept, developing the ideas. We had a very substantive contribution. We have always been talking with the neighbours, trying to help them get out of the conflict, and (about) how best to see the conflict ended. Somehow, we are thankful that, at times, we get a receptive ear. Of course, there are times when we are not listened to. But, at least, we have contributed. We can say we have contributed in a modest way, but in a very significant way, to trying to get a peaceful resolution to the conflict in Congo.
Who listens to Tanzania, and who does not listen?
Of course, Im not saying that all of them dont listen. It depends upon the issues. For example, when we were working on the Lusaka Agreement itself, during the pre-negotiation stage, when we were discussing issues like peacekeeping: I remember we had discussions with the Rwandese and they were not comfortable with the UN, because of what happened in 1994. And when we went to talk to the late President Laurent Kabila, he was also uncomfortable with the UN, because of what happened in 1961.
So, you can see some of the difficulties, but at the end of the day we came to an agreement and a compromise formula evolved that, fine, there is no way that peacekeeping is [solely] the business of the United Nations Security Council. They have to be there, certainly, or if somebody else has got to be there, it has got to be with the mandate of the UN Security Council. We came out with an understanding, somehow. But there are times when you run into some difficulties and there are other things that are easy.
So, we cannot say that there have been times when countries have rejected our suggestions, but it depends on the issues. Some issues are easy and accepted, some are quite difficult and at times you find it difficult to find a compromise formula for that.
Will Tanzania be sending peacekeeping troops to the Democratic Republic of Congo?
Of course, if we are requested, we will give it due consideration, maybe positive consideration. It depends on the conditions of deployment. Because we had an experience where we somehow burnt our fingers in Liberia, where we were requested to contribute peacekeeping forces and there was nobody to pay them. We had to pay them from our treasury. I was in the Ministry of Finance at that time when these boys came back. So, if at all we are asked to send peacekeeping forces, we really have to have some serious discussions before we can say yes or no.
Of course, now we have contributed something for the monitors in the Congo. We have contributed some boys in Sierra Leone, we have some boys also in the process in Eritrea/Ethiopia, so we are contributing to peacekeeping. But contributing to peacekeeping forces in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, in view of our experience in Liberia, there will have to be some very serious discussion and understanding between us and those who will request us to do so.
Mr Kikwete, correct me if Im wrong, youre now Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation, but I believe you were a soldier...
Of course I was.
Wearing your soldiers hat, do you think that the UNs peacekeeping role, with monitors in the DRC is good enough? It is, after all, a vast country. Can the current UN monitoring team have any effect at all, or is the DRC going to need a huge, multinational peacekeeping force to try to bring peace to that troubled land?
Of course, the process is phased. The first phase was to establish is the appointment of the UN secretary-generals representative and establish the office of MONUC (UN Mission to the Congo) , which has already been done. There is [Special Representative of the UN Secretary General] Ambassador Morjane of Tunisia who is doing that.
After that, there was this team that was going to recommend the deployment of the monitors, which they have done. After the monitoring units have been deployed, then they will recommend the deployment of the peacekeeping forces. So, the peacekeeping forces are going to be much bigger. If the monitoring force is 5,537, certainly you expect a bigger force to come for the peacekeeping.
Congo is a huge country. It is 2.34 million square kilometres. It is Tanzania, Kenya, Uganda, Burundi, Rwanda and Zambia put together. So, it is a huge country and definitely you need more forces. Currently there are 500 monitors, with a force of about 5,000 for the security of the monitors, but when it comes to the deployment of the peacekeepers, Im sure that the force is going to be quite sizeable.
Moving on, Tanzania has good relations with Rwanda, but not such good relations with your neighbour, Burundi. As you know, there are those in Burundi who have accused the Tanzanians of, if not actually training rebels, tacitly allowing rebels to train on Tanzanian territory...
I cannot say that our relations with Burundi are bad relations. They may be difficult relations, but to us the relations are good because all that is being said to us is not true. There can be suspicion, all right, but we dont think there is any basis for that. They know where the rebels come from and they dont have to use Tanzania to get into Burundi.
So are you denying that Burundian rebels are based in Tanzania and sometimes launch attacks across the border into Burundi?
No, no, no. Tanzania has never been used as a base for launching attacks against Burundi. Certainly we would not allow it. We will not allow subversion. And we have said that, if at all we had the intention, we [could] have done it before. We have done it against the Portuguese in Mozambique, we have done it in Zimbabwe, we have done it for Angola. If Tanzania had the intention of doing it, we would do it more professionally.
Why then do you think the rumours persist that Tanzania is training Burundian rebels?
Maybe, the best thing to do is to ask the Burundi people. Where do you train them? The refugee camps do not belong to us. They belong to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. And where the UNHCR is not present, you have international NGOs. Have you heard a word from the UNHCR or any NGO saying there is training going on in the camps? No, its not true. Certainly, we are saying there is no training going on in Tanzania. Tanzania is not being used to launch attacks against Burundi.
There is fighting going on and its around Bujumbura. Does Bujumbura share a border with Tanzania? It is several hundred kilometres away. They know the place where Bujumbura is near, certainly it cannot be Tanzania. But, of course, well, when somebody simply decides to insult you, he can decide to do anything, to say anything. But certainly we are very upset when we hear these things, because we are not doing it, we dont have the intention of doing it. What we are trying to do is really try to help Burundi get back to normalcy.
We have invested so much in the peace process, we are trying to do it and will continue to do it. We will not be daunted or discouraged by these accusations.
But do these persistent claims sour and strain relations between Tanzania and Burundi?
First of all let me tell you, the truth is that, to Tanzania, this is not going to be the first time for these accusations. From the time of Michombero, there have been these accusations and counter-accusations. When Michombero left, there was Bagaza. When Bagaza left, I remember there was a time when Buyoya came in. There was a time when there was a prime minister, Antoine Nduwayo - every day that was his song.
When we send troops, for example, to the border, just to help give them the assurance that we are trying to help, they asked us why, giving the perception that we are trying to attack them.
So, from Burundi, we would be surprised if there was quiet on that side. We will always be accused of one thing or the other. We have always been scapegoats. We are saying that there are problems internally, they should not try to evade that. There is a serious problem internally and they will solve those problems by looking at them seriously and objectively.
And the Arusha process is the way of solving them. The problem is political. They have to solve the political problems in Burundi to save the situation and create a condition where there will be no rebellion. That must be their preoccupation. The question is not military might. I dont see anyone winning - the rebels will not win, the government will not win. What will happen is simply the people will be caught in the crossfire. They will be killing their own people. Thats all.
So, the Burundians need to find a political solution, accusing this one and that one will not help. It will not solve the problem. There is fighting going on around Bujumbura. Bujumbura does not share a border with Tanzania.
But I suppose in this case, Tanzania cannot act, as it has in the Democratic Republic of Congo, as an honest broker in Burundi. You might not be considered an honest and impartial broker by the Burundians.
We are trying our best. We are trying our best. As I said, this does not discourage us from performing what we think is right. We have to help the people of Burundi reach a solution in whatever way we can. We think we have helped so much and will continue to help. And we believe we will be party to the resolution of that problem.
We dont see in any way that we cannot be perceived as honest brokers. I want to assure you that if we wanted to be a problem to Burundi, things would have been very serious. We are not doing it. We are being very honest about it. But every time we become scapegoats.
When I say that, Im not implying that we will try subversion. But Im sure that if we tried it, we would notice the difference, certainly. Because, if we wanted to say now we are going to help the rebels, we would do it professionally. We have the experience of doing it. Burundi would not be the first one. But we have not done it. We have not done it, we are not doing it, we dont have the intention of doing it. So, every time we hear these accusations, we get very upset.
But we understand the difficulties that they are in. So, the temptation of trying to look for scapegoats elsewhere, we understand. We understand the difficulties they are in, but at times they are overdoing it. And, well, we are human beings. There are times when we may also get annoyed, but its quite sad, its quite sad that there are these accusations, but we understand. Well, lets see.
What about the refugee problem, because I suppose Tanzania, being a poor country as you are, must be worried by the number of refugees you host. You are home to more refugees that you would ordinarily like to handle, from all over the region. What is the current figure?
We wouldnt even like to have a single refugee. But, of course, our current figure goes close to one million now.
Mainly from Burundi?
Yes, we have about five hundred thousand from Burundi in the camps. We have about a hundred and thirty thousand from the Congo, about twenty thousand from Rwanda - though I dont know the exact finger now, but there was a time when they were about twenty thousand.
And we have a number of them who live in refugee settlement villages, who to us are actually refugees. They came here in 1965, some 1972, some 1959, but they are refugees. There was a time when the Tanzanian government had actually given them the opportunity to choose to become citizens of Tanzania. Some decided to, about thirty thousand did. But the rest decided not to. So, in fact they are refugees. So, if you add them, the number is close to a million, close to one million people.
How many of them come under the umbrella of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, and therefore attract aid for Tanzania to help the refugees, and how many has Tanzania just had to absorb using its own resources?
Formally, it is thirty thousand we have absorbed. But the perception now is that only those in the refugee camps are the ones that they recognize. But we are saying there are refugees in Mishamo, there are refugees in Katumba, there are refugees in Mwese. There are a number of these refugee settlement schemes where the refugees from Burundi live.
Those are able to fend for themselves, those in the settlement schemes of course. Those in the refugee camps have nowhere else, except ... resources from the UNHCR and the international community. But, of course, at the same time, they use resources that are from Tanzania. Especially when they dont get enough food, they go into the villages, where they use the same common facilities - health, transport, social and economic services - which are being used by all of them who are there.
Poor as we are, not properly endowed or provided for in terms of social and economic amenities, it is certainly a burden weighing upon us. We are trying as much as we can to perform our modest duty in that regard. But we have always been appealing to the international community to do more. For example, they cut down the rations for the refugees. And what happens when this occurs? The refugees go out of their camps and go into the villages. At times, they take food forcibly, at times they do manual labour.
But in the process of doing manual labour, they mingle with the community. As a result, you have increased incidences of crime, armed robbery and all sorts of crimes. So we would like to see them properly taken care of, so that they dont get out of the camps. All the services are being provided for, so that they dont create an additional strain on the meagre resources we have.
What, concretely, are you telling the United Nations, the world community and other African countries about these refugees and how the problems can be resolved?
To the international communit first, of course, they have to perform their obligation to the refugees - provide what is required...We have also got to get together to solve the root causes of these problems. There was a time I said at the UN in New York, that we should work together so that we close the 'factories that continue to manufacture refugees. If you close the factory that manufactures refugees in Burundi, there will be nobody to blame.
Lets talk now about the revitalization, if I can put it that way, of the East African Community. It is moving apace, the headquarters in Arusha, Tanzania. What do you think are the prospects? Are you optimistic that the union will work this time for the East African region?
Of course, I am very optimistic, because it is something that the people of East Africa demanded. It is not something that has been imposed. After the break-up of the former East African Community, there have been cries everywhere. 'Where is our community, where is our community and they have been blaming the political leadership for that.
The leaders of our three countries heard the demands of the people and we started the community again. So, one, it starts on a very solid basis - with the support from the people of East Africa. But also, it is being structured in a manner that we have prospects for a solid future. Because the understanding is that we are going to have gradual building of the community, one brick after the other.
So, we have decided to be careful this time, to avoid the mistakes of the past and carefully build the new institution. It is on that basis that Im confident that this time around we will succeed.
Talking specifically about Tanzania, there are some in the business community who are little bit jittery about aspects of the East African Community, for example the zero import/export tariffs. What is this going to mean for them? When you look across the border at Kenya, it is more industrialized, its industrial sector is more advanced, and there are those who say Tanzania might become a dumping ground for goods from Kenya. Do you think these apprehensions are justified?
Of course, it is justified in the sense that it could happen. But no regional economic integration has been created by economies that are at the same level of development or at the same level of strength.
Take, for example, the European Union. The Portuguese economy or the Spanish economy are not as big as the German economy. Or the Irish economy, it cannot be compared with the economies of France or Germany. But, they have joined in an economic union.
What is important in an economic union is not equality, but the question of equity.
We have built into this system of our cooperation the concept of asymmetry, where he who is at the higher level of development shares a bigger burden than the one who is at a lower level of development. So, when we come up with the structure of creating a customs union, with the elimination of internal tariffs and the erection of a common external tariff, certainly care will be taken to make sure that the principle of asymmetry is properly applied. And when that one is properly applied, certainly the concerns will have been taken care of.
I know it cannot be a hundred percent. But what Im trying to say is that it is a question of pluses and minuses. But at the end of the day it is a win-win situation. You may have difficulties at the beginning, but at the end you will all gain.
How convincing is that though, for the business community here in Tanzania, given the concern that a nascent industrial sector, a fledgling one, could be crippled, especially by a comparatively giant economy across the border in Kenya.
What Im saying is that its not simply going to be everything is zero the same day. This is what the principle of asymmetry means really. Its going to be structured in a manner that those who are at a higher level of development will bear a burden for some time, while the others are developing. So, this is the whole principle of asymmetry, it has been done everywhere and that is what we intend to do in the East African Community.
You say 'they, but of course you are just three, its Tanzania, Uganda and Kenya for now. Its not like the European Union, which you have mentioned, with more than ten members. You are very small, although I understand that Burundi and Rwanda have applied to join the East African Community.
The question is not numbers, the question is the differences in terms of the sizes of the economies and the levels of development. Even if you are two, one may be at a higher level than the other. So, take the case of the European Union when, for example, they had special preferences for Spain and for Ireland, they had to do it for a period of about fifteen years. I believe that time has now elapsed, but you always have those considerations. It is not simply a question of not taking care of those aspects. It is carefully structured and that is precisely what is going to happen for the EAC.
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Recently, France - the French military - organized what they called a 'politico-military seminar here in Dar es Salaam, in the light of 'RECAMP Tanzanite,' which is a French initiative for peacekeeping in Africa. They have chosen Tanzania for the SADC (Southern Africa Development Community) regional military exercises in 2002; why Tanzania and France?
Well, it is not Tanzania and France. It is the SADC countries and France. It is not an exercise between Tanzania and France, we are only the host of that. So I really do not see the question and what is the problem there?
But traditionally, one would not have linked France with Anglophone countries and France has no military presence in Tanzania or any of the other SADC countries. So, people are asking, what is this - a change of policy by France? And why did France choose Tanzania to host the military exercises?
I thought you would ask those questions to France and not to Tanzania, because those are questions that are related to French foreign policy and foreign policy options. But we in the SADC region think it is a good idea that we have got to build a capacity to be able to help in peacekeeping in our region or peacekeeping in other regions. And here is France which is ready to work with us and help us build better capacity.
Well, we dont see any problem with it. Moreover, we have been doing it. We have had, for example, in SADC, Blue Hungwe exercise, we have had Blue Crane, all these exercises that we conducted working in cooperation with other countries. So we dont see why the coming of France should create such concerns and raise so many questions. Im trying to understand the questions, I really dont see them.
I think there is considerable curiosity, because one normally links the French with a number of other countries in Africa. France had an active policy of what it called its 'garde chassee, its spheres of influence, its stamping ground, and Francophone Africa is where it stamped. It hasnt usually moved into former British colonies like Tanzania, or elsewhere. And suddenly it is. I know Tanzania says its non-aligned and it will work with anyone, but it is a curious change...
But you know, there is everybody there. The Americans were at the seminar, the Spanish were there, almost everybody was there. Only that there has got to be someone to take the lead and the French are taking the lead. But, there were thirteen countries from SADC, from Africa, and there were about twenty countries from Europe and America. You have to have someone take the lead. You cannot have everybody leading.
There is a joint initiative, by the French, the Americans and the British, for peacekeeping operations and I saw there that the US was represented by a very senior official, who is in charge of that operation, who is head of peacekeeping. So to us, it is just one of the things that has been happening.
Im sure when they had these exercises in Senegal, the Americans also participated. So Im saying we dont see any problem to that.
You will work with whomever?
Of course, yes. We have been working with so many people, with so many, from history. We have worked with the Russians, with the Israelis, with the Bulgarians, with the Chinese. But, of course, I remember when we first brought in the Chinese here, oh, it was a big fuss. So, we are not surprised.
Tanzania has a history of working with many countries. So, we work with anyone whom we think there is something useful there we can do together.
After all, we dont consider ourselves to be part of anybodys 'empire. We are independent. We decide who we work with. So, this time we have decided to work with the French. If the Japanese come next time and they are ready to work with us, if we agree, we will work with them.
There is a specific kind of training that we are building. We are trying to build a capacity for our military to handle peacekeeping operations, humanitarian operations. The French are ready to work with our military to develop that capacity. And certainly, when we got that offer, we took it with open hands.
There should not be any kind of interpretation, that would be quite unfortunate. It has got nothing to do with power politics or spheres of influence. After all, if that was going to be the case, everyone knows us, knows our position. We have never accepted to be under anyones sphere of influence. And this kind of exercise is to build the capacity of our armed forces to handle specific operations.
For us, in Tanzania, to be the host, we feel greatly honoured - unless you think that we dont deserve to be the host?
Im not saying that at all, but there are those who are forecasting a new rivalry between the Europeans and the Americans in Africa. France is doing its own military peacekeeping initiatives in Africa, the Americans have their own ACRI, which is bilateral. The French favour regional initiatives. The British in Sierra Leone. Why dont they all just get together, why all these separate initiatives - the Europeans, the Americans... Why arent there just global initiatives for peacekeeping in Africa?
Maybe thats a question you should ask the Americans and the French. Thats their problem, its not our problem.
