Chijioke Okoli (SAN) is a former branch chairman of the Nigerian Bar Association (NBA) Lagos Branch. In this interview, he speaks on the undesirability of constitutional amendment for female inclusion in elective positions, the 25% in the FCT, and other issues. Excerpt:
After the 2023 general elections, 90 per cent of female contestants lost out. Don't you think it is time to have a constitutional inclusion for the womenfolk?
I don't think that should be included in our constitution because the constitution already has sufficient safeguards that nobody should be discriminated against on the basis of sex, state of origin. Sometimes things evolve or become circumstantial. In Lagos for example, about 80 per cent of the judges are women. In Anambra State, my home state, at a point in time, the CJ and three senators were women.
Within the political parties, they can evolve some mechanisms to help women. If they need help, especially if they need money and I know some political parties have reduced the amount for female nomination forms.
The issue of 25 per cent requirement in the FCT has continued to elicit debate, shouldn't there be constitutional amendment?
All the time people were talking about areas to amend, it was not mentioned, but if the Supreme Court should go with the literary interpretation of it, which is that you must get 25 per cent of votes cast in the FCT, either way, the decision goes, we may need to take the second look at that to amend it or leave it.
Like my brother Silk Femi Falana (SAN) was saying that giving the literary interpretation would be like giving the people living in Abuja a veto. The other factor is that Abuja does not have a governor and the defacto governor of Abuja is the president. So, if you look at it this way, that you want to govern a place, the president governs Abuja through the ministers that he appoints at his pleasure. So, it means the defacto governor of a place would not even have 25 per cent of the votes of the place.
Those that say that it gives the people of Abuja veto did not look at it this way. The people who are resident in Abuja are not entitled to vote for governorship in another state because you cannot vote for governorship election with your voter's card in any other state.
So, the governor that they have is the president. It is not saying that you win a majority but a minimum of a quarter for you to exercise gubernatorial power not only presidential power, over the FCT.
So those it mean we need an amendment?
I am not sure that we need an amendment because we need to discuss more robustly whether to retain the constitution as it is or to amend it. If we discard the 25 per cent constitutional provision for Abuja, we are shortchanging Abuja people.
Going further, the argument of the people who say that how can you give Abuja people veto power, by the same token how can you also say that because somebody is voting in Abuja, you deny him the right to elect somebody that would exercise executive power under his domain which the constitution says should be taken as a state just as any other state of the federation.
So, in Lagos, Anambra etc you vote for your governor because in Abuja you say the man won't vote for his governor because there are no state assembly elections basically. In Abuja, there is no state assembly election. So the National Assembly is the assembly for Abuja.
There is a clamour for the office of the Attorney General of the Federation to be separated from that of the Minister of Justice. What is your take?
I have very strong opinion on the office of AGF and Justice Minister. We don't learn lessons from history, before the 1963 Constitution, the office of the AGF and the Minister for Justice was separate from that of the Office of the Director of Public Prosecution (DPP).
Most of the prosecutorial powers were vested in the office of the DPP, which is a separate office from the AGF. There were problems between the AGF and the DPP which sometimes got out of hand but there was always tension. So, the people clamouring for the continued fusion of these offices seem totally ignorant of history.
In the recent past, you could see the problem between the EFCC under Magu and the office of AGF over the issue of prosecution. Even with Ribadu when it was clear that the overall prosecutorial power lies with the AGF, you still have other law enforcement agencies with their own prosecutorial powers having schism.
Can you imagine a situation where the constitution would give the Minister of Justice a position and AGF is a separate person. So, it could end in a disaster. Look at the positions we are talking about and let us use the famous Malabu case where there is an interplay of criminal and civil aspects of the case.
The problem we have is to see that whoever occupies the office of AGF is fit for the office. Not with the fusion. These tensions come up when we have unfit people holding that very high office. Even during Shehu Shagari's time when Kehinde Sofola (SAN) was made the AGF nobody was talking about separating the office. The man came to the office with overwhelming goodwill, knowledge of the law and moral authority.
I go back to Bola Ajibola (SAN), he came to the office making it clear to everybody that he came to serve. He is one of the most outstanding justice ministers we had. He was not living in his official residence. His salaries were going to charity. We knew that from the former vice president and so he could look at those who appointed him in the face. Not for someone appointed as AGF to use the office to make the kind of money he can never make in practice.
How do you score the judiciary under the President Buhari administration?
There is nothing to write home about. I struggle to find anyway where I would give Buhari a pass mark. The country was on life support and Nigeria has never been so divided. It is good that Buhari has asked for forgiveness.
Are you interested in the office of the NBA president which has been zoned to the eastern zone of the bar?
I will tell you that I am not interested.
By Adelanwa Bamgboye
After the 2023 general elections, 90 per cent of female contestants lost out. Don't you think it is time to have a constitutional inclusion for the womenfolk?
I don't think that should be included in our constitution because the constitution already has sufficient safeguards that nobody should be discriminated against on the basis of sex, state of origin. Sometimes things evolve or become circumstantial. In Lagos for example, about 80 per cent of the judges are women. In Anambra State, my home state, at a point in time, the CJ and three senators were women.
Within the political parties, they can evolve some mechanisms to help women. If they need help, especially if they need money and I know some political parties have reduced the amount for female nomination forms.
The issue of 25 per cent requirement in the FCT has continued to elicit debate, shouldn't there be constitutional amendment?
All the time people were talking about areas to amend, it was not mentioned, but if the Supreme Court should go with the literary interpretation of it, which is that you must get 25 per cent of votes cast in the FCT, either way, the decision goes, we may need to take the second look at that to amend it or leave it.
Like my brother Silk Femi Falana (SAN) was saying that giving the literary interpretation would be like giving the people living in Abuja a veto. The other factor is that Abuja does not have a governor and the defacto governor of Abuja is the president. So, if you look at it this way, that you want to govern a place, the president governs Abuja through the ministers that he appoints at his pleasure. So, it means the defacto governor of a place would not even have 25 per cent of the votes of the place.
Those that say that it gives the people of Abuja veto did not look at it this way. The people who are resident in Abuja are not entitled to vote for governorship in another state because you cannot vote for governorship election with your voter's card in any other state.
So, the governor that they have is the president. It is not saying that you win a majority but a minimum of a quarter for you to exercise gubernatorial power not only presidential power, over the FCT.
So those it mean we need an amendment?
I am not sure that we need an amendment because we need to discuss more robustly whether to retain the constitution as it is or to amend it. If we discard the 25 per cent constitutional provision for Abuja, we are shortchanging Abuja people.
Going further, the argument of the people who say that how can you give Abuja people veto power, by the same token how can you also say that because somebody is voting in Abuja, you deny him the right to elect somebody that would exercise executive power under his domain which the constitution says should be taken as a state just as any other state of the federation.
So, in Lagos, Anambra etc you vote for your governor because in Abuja you say the man won't vote for his governor because there are no state assembly elections basically. In Abuja, there is no state assembly election. So the National Assembly is the assembly for Abuja.
There is a clamour for the office of the Attorney General of the Federation to be separated from that of the Minister of Justice. What is your take?
I have very strong opinion on the office of AGF and Justice Minister. We don't learn lessons from history, before the 1963 Constitution, the office of the AGF and the Minister for Justice was separate from that of the Office of the Director of Public Prosecution (DPP).
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Most of the prosecutorial powers were vested in the office of the DPP, which is a separate office from the AGF. There were problems between the AGF and the DPP which sometimes got out of hand but there was always tension. So, the people clamouring for the continued fusion of these offices seem totally ignorant of history.
In the recent past, you could see the problem between the EFCC under Magu and the office of AGF over the issue of prosecution. Even with Ribadu when it was clear that the overall prosecutorial power lies with the AGF, you still have other law enforcement agencies with their own prosecutorial powers having schism.
Can you imagine a situation where the constitution would give the Minister of Justice a position and AGF is a separate person. So, it could end in a disaster. Look at the positions we are talking about and let us use the famous Malabu case where there is an interplay of criminal and civil aspects of the case.
The problem we have is to see that whoever occupies the office of AGF is fit for the office. Not with the fusion. These tensions come up when we have unfit people holding that very high office. Even during Shehu Shagari's time when Kehinde Sofola (SAN) was made the AGF nobody was talking about separating the office. The man came to the office with overwhelming goodwill, knowledge of the law and moral authority.
I go back to Bola Ajibola (SAN), he came to the office making it clear to everybody that he came to serve. He is one of the most outstanding justice ministers we had. He was not living in his official residence. His salaries were going to charity. We knew that from the former vice president and so he could look at those who appointed him in the face. Not for someone appointed as AGF to use the office to make the kind of money he can never make in practice.
How do you score the judiciary under the President Buhari administration?
There is nothing to write home about. I struggle to find anyway where I would give Buhari a pass mark. The country was on life support and Nigeria has never been so divided. It is good that Buhari has asked for forgiveness.
Are you interested in the office of the NBA president which has been zoned to the eastern zone of the bar?
I will tell you that I am not interested.
