Niamey, Accra and Cape Town — Hello I'm Juanita Williams, allAfrica's managing editor, and we'll be discussing the Sahel region today and aiming for an understanding of the region's history of peacebuilding and conflict, how it brought us to Niger's coup in August 2023, and what the peacebuilding possibilities are going forward.
Welcome to our three contributors today, but I'll let them introduce themselves.
Gare Amadou 00:01
Okay, so I'm Gare Amadou, a journalist from Niger Republic, I begin journalism since 15, or around 20 years ago. So my favourite I mean, the subject of journalism is security, fighting against terrorism, or let's say, also political subjects. I also am interested on social subjects, as you know, in my country, we do not have a journalist to specialise on just one field. You know, we are most of time journalists who can do everything. I can do politics, I can do security, I can do something. So I can't say that I'm only specialising on one subject. So let's say, you know, general journalists, if I can say that.
Dr Festus Aubyn 00:52
I'm Festus Kofi Aubyn. I'm a senior researcher, and also a lecturer. Currently, I'm the Head of Research and Capacity Building at the West African Network for Peacebuilding (Wanep), which is located in Accra, but has offices in all the ECOWAS countries. Basically, I'm in charge of research at Wanep. We've been researching over the years on issues around conflict prevention, peacebuilding, violent extremism, gender, peace and security, youth, peace and security and issues around early warning within their region. We've also been doing capacity building interventions to support state institutions, community activists, in terms of their response to peace and security issues within the region. Besides that, I'm also an adjunct lecturer in a number of institutions in Ghana, including the Kofi Annan International Peacekeeping Training Centre, where I used to work, and then the Ghana Armed Forces Command and Staff College and also the Lincoln Centre for International Affairs, and Diplomacy.
Prof Ibrahim Bangura 02:24
Thank you very much. I'm a lecturer in the Department of Peace and Conflict Studies from Fourah Bay College, University of Sierra Leone. And I'm also a partner of Transition International, which is a consultancy firm based in the Netherlands. And I do a lot of work evaluating EU-funded projects and programmes in Africa as a result-oriented monitoring expert. And I do a lot of research some of the work that I've done in the past I've done alongside Festus, Dr Aubyn. We published a book last year, titled Youth-Led Social Movements and Peacebuilding in Africa. This year, there's a publication titled Disarmament, Demobilisation and Reintegration of Ex-Combatants in Africa. And we're finalising a book on Youth and Urban Mobilities in Covid-19-Affected Africa. So there's a lot of work done. And I also teach alongside Festus, in places like the Kofi Annan International Peacekeeping Training Centre in Ghana, and also do a lot of research in the Sahel and other parts of Africa.
Juanita Williams 03:36
It seems like a confluence of coups and military governments that have decided that they do not want the colonialist power that they've had before. Even though they're not being colonised anymore, they've decided they don't want France in the countries at all. So Amadou could you tell us what your analysis of the situation is? Why you think the Niger coup happened and why do you think the Sahel region specifically is dealing with this?
Gare Amadou 05:24
We cannot say that the reason given by the junta in Niger, in Mali, and Burkina Faso as the truth because this is not true. Because the military, head of the army, wants it just to get the power. So the only reason that can make people come and support the junta is to say that they aim to fight against colonialism, and the fact that African countries has lots of resources (being controlled by foreign forces), Because the poor countries in the world that they want to fight against this. The reason given, they cannot convince anyone. They just want to have the means to have money to manage the country to rule people. And if you consider the situation, in the three countries, let's talk about Mali and Burkina Faso.
So we have two juntas who decided that they will set up a process that can move the country to democratic election, but as we go, step by step, we can see that these junta members do not want to give back the power to civilians. So we have a situation in which head of army said that 'we want to fight against terrorists, we want to fight against colonialism. So this is why we overthrew the democratic regime who failed to gain results on these two fronts. So we are here to establish a kind of new kind of governance in which Africa can profit from its resources, and Africa can decide what to do for its people, and we will fight we will be able to fight against terrorism without the help of any country.' Well, the situation we have currently is that terrorism is gaining, in terms of territories in Abuja, Burkina Faso, in Mali and Niger. So the situation is getting worse. That means that the reason given was not really true because they fail to fight really against terrorists. The fact that African countries who have lots of resources, that African countries are the poorest countries in the world that they want to fight against this, this, the only reason is that we have the same military, I mean, head of armies, who just wanted to get the power.
The reason, given the reason, given, they cannot convince anyone. Okay, in reality, we have just been head of the armies, we just wanted to get to power and to rule the country, they just want to have means to have money to manage the country, to rule people. And if you consider the situation, in the three countries, we have Mali and Burkina Faso. So we have two juntas, who decided that they will set up a process that can move the country to, democratic election, but as we go, step by step, we can see that really these junta members do not want to give back the power to civilians. So we have a situation in which head of army said that we want to fight against terriorism, we want to fight against colonialism.
So this is why we overthrew the democratical regime who failed to to gain results these two fields. So we are here to establish a kind of new kind of governance in which Africa can profit from its resources, and Africa can decide what to do for its people, and we will fight, we will be able to fight against terrorism without the help of any country. Well, the situation we have currently is that terrorism is gaining a lot of spaces, in terms of territories in Burkina Faso, Mali and in Niger. So the situation is getting worse. So that means that the reason given were not really true because they fail to fight really against terrorism. What we can what can see currently is that terrorists are stronger than before, I mean, since the coming of the junta on the political field.
Juanita Williams 07:44
Thank you so much for those insights. Festus, Ibrahim, could you add some perspective to what is happening now in terms of the conflict in Sahel? And how peacebuilding can contribute to bringing a better life for people that are in the Sahel. We'll start with the what steps have been taken in the Sahel that you are aware of in terms of peacebuilding.
Dr Festus Aubyn 08:23
Thank you very much. Historically, we've had some turbulent periods within the Sahel. But I think that the situation got worse after the NATO intervention in Libya, which we are experiencing the effect of that intervention within the Sahel, before NATO intervene in Libya. Although the Sahel had some issues of governance, development, the situation was not what we see today, since that intervention, the situation has deteriorated starting from Mali, where we had the Tuareg rebellion, which led to a coup and counter coups. And then also bringing in the element of violent extremism and terrorism, which has spread from Mali, to Burkina Faso to Niger. And also currently even moving towards the coastal states of Benin, Togo, Cote d'Ivoire.
Since that intervention, we've seen a deterioration of the situation and COVID-19 added another layer to that problem, as well as issues around climate change, which also is impacting on the situation. And since then, if you recall, when that situation happened in Mali, we had a military intervention by the French called Operation Serval. After Operation Serval, we had the AFISMA, African-led mission in Mali, which was handled by the African Union. And Ecowas - that intervention helped in terms of recapturing some of the areas in Mali, that was captured by the al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb and uncertain and other groups who had captured Kidal, Gao and Timbuktu. And after the intervention of AFISMA, we saw the deployment of the UN Mission in Mali called MINUSMA. MINUSMA has been in Mali since 2013 and has been helping the Malian authorities in their peacebuilding efforts together with other partners like the African Union, and ECOWAS, which had offices in Mali, the AU office was called MISAHEL, and Ecowas also had an office.
Together with other partners like the EU, the EU had a capacity building mission that was helping to build the capacity of the Malian forces, and then AU, Ecowas were also supporting the political processes together with the UN through MINUSMA. And that is what led to the Algiers Agreement in 2015, where all the parties in Mali signed a peace accord to undertake certain reforms to bring stability into the country. But all these interventions have not been able to stabilise the situation. And we have seen a spread to other neighbouring countries and the recent coup d'etats, which has further disrupted the gains that have been made in the past, one of the challenge has been the weakening capacity of most of these states. If you look at most of the reasons cited by the coup makers, for engaging in the coup they cited three main reasons. One, issues of poor governance, two, issues of socio economic challenges, which was further exacerbated by the COVID-19 aftermath. And then three is the deteriorating security situation, where counterterrorism effort has not worked despite the presence of the French Operation Barkhane, the EU missions, US special forces, MINUSMA and others, the situation is getting worse.
These terror groups are capturing new territories, new areas, you know, so the situation is getting worse by the day. And that is raising a lot of discontent among the population. And that is why they (the Niger junta) have this military support. Also capitalise on the public dissatisfaction of the government to stage most of the coups that we see today, you know, so in terms of building peace in these areas, I think that the most important issue that we need to deal with now is transitioning to democratic governance or transitioning from military regimes to a democratic order, where then the various reforms can be undertaken. Because currently, most of the military regimes lack legitimacy and credibility, even internally and externally, to even get the needed support to restore peace in these countries. So we need a transition to democratic order. And once we have a legitimate government in place, we can now look at how to deal with the issues. And this is where the AU, ECOWAS comes in to guide these countries towards that path of democratic order in these countries, but we've also seen the posture of these three countries that are currently under military regimes, which sometimes complicates the situation.
You know, but I think the first step is to transition to a constitutional order. And then from there, we could now approach other peacebuilding interventions, and then also dealing with any colonial pacts that is rooted in exploitative practices. And here I'm referring to French colonial pacts with some of these countries, which is also one of the issues that has come up in almost all the three countries, the anti- France sentiment, you know, and dealing with this cannot be one country, it needs a unified approach. And that is where I think that the EU and ECOWAS also have to start diplomatic efforts in terms of looking at how those colonial part can be reviewed, to ensure that the engagement is a win-win situation. Otherwise, we'll continue to have a recurrence of the situation within the region.
Juanita Williams 15:49
Thank you so much for that, Ibrahim is there anything you would like to add in terms of your understanding of what historically was done that worked? And I mean, Festus has explained now, why it is all falling apart, but I mean, it historically is there anything that in terms of peacebuilding, that can be returned to once the transitional governments are in place?
Prof Ibrahim Bangura 16:21
I will make very clear additions to what Festus has already said. But it was even before 2010, when we had the Arab Spring and slightly after, there were clear signs that this Sahel was going to be problematic zone for a while, it became a zone that was rooted in bad governance, corruption, nepotism, all the challenges that one will not want to see, in a region like the Sahel, or any other region, you know, on the African continent. We had leaders who personalise their states, leaders who believe that they are placing their people. And even in countries like Mali, and even a place like Senegal that has been looked at as a hallmark of democracy on the continent, we saw regular protests. And we saw the emergence of social movements in those countries. There were contestations in these countries between the youth and the state. Young people came to lose confidence in their leaders.
There were clear messages sent, you know, whenever they wanted to protest, to challenge some of the states, the state reacted violently. So they became disconnected from this, you know, and this state failed to exist in the lives of its youth. So there was a ready-made army of young people across the region, young people who were prepared and willing to resort to any form of action that will enable them to get recognition, get their voice, get their place and the identity that states have denied them in that region. You know, there was, I mean, post-cold war, we saw transition to democracy, but democracy became only limited to elections, five years on election on seven years, but not in meaningful, there was no transformative agenda. In all of the countries that we look at - from Burkina Faso, Niger, Chad, Mauritania, Nigeria, Sudan, all of those. And even the country like Nigeria, we saw the Niger Delta crisis, which the government did not learn from.
And now we have Boko Haram, which affects four countries, Nigeria, Niger, Chad and Cameroon. And the issues have always been the same: marginalisation of youth, ostracization, denial of socio-economic opportunities, and all of that. So the question of violent extremist groups seizing that space, was something that a lot of studies noted for quite a while. So when Libya exploded, fighters started moving down downward, down south, it was obvious that a lot of very vulnerable societies and these societies that have had no faith, no trust in their leaders, and could look for groups that could either join them in contesting against the States, seeking to punish political leaders that have that have over time denied them access to resources and social services, very basic access to education, health. Leaders were sending their children to schools, some of the best schools in the world, and people grew up not being educated, not having access to healthcare facilities. There have always been traditional methods of healing and reconciliation across the Sahel. Every country has its own approach.
With the question of peacebuilding is a question that we have to look at very carefully in terms of how do we approach, develop, and use methods, that will create a difference in terms of reconciling, building social cohesion and getting these societies into a place where they could continue to function, or they could function cohesively? So Festus pointed at that - now there is an exploitative relationship existing in these countries, we have military leaders who are pretending, a lot of them are pretending, to be working in the interests of their people trying to get elites that, you know, have wronged them for quite a while. But these guys have also been known all the time to not keep to the word in terms of transitioning their countries into democracy. And some of them have no agenda in terms of transitioning their countries to democracy in the immediate future. And now you also have the question of the intentions of Russia.
These countries don't wants to be pressured, don't want to be pressured in terms of democracy, good governance, human rights rule of law. So they're looking for an alternative, which Russia provides, which the Wagner groups in the region provides. So we're in a very difficult, complex and complicated place. So we have to look at this from a broad lens. First, we need to have the leaders in these countries to become clear as to what are the roadmaps in relation to transition to democracy? What kind of national agenda could be set that will promote healing and reconciliation in terms of enabling these countries to move forward? How can we use methods such as transitional justice in the midst of what we have, but again, because these countries also remain very unstable, for instance, if you go to a place like Burkina Faso, every day you expect a coup d'etat, every day. In Niger, the leaders are trying to settle.
So it will difficult to even speak of transition process in the next two, three years. There is a lot of uncertainty. The question at this material moment is not around peacebuilding. It's about stabilising this country's transition into a process where we can begin to look at it from a perspective of yes, there's a threshold set, how do we build from here to have a society that is cohesive, and that is functional? So maybe that is where we need to hang the conversation for now. Thank you.
Juanita Williams 23:32
Thank you so much. Amadou, is there something you'd like to add?
Gare Amadou 23:35
Yeah, I would like to add something. And we should not believe that Sahel was a peaceful land before the rise of terrorism, or the breakdown of terrorism in this part of the continent. We should remember that before the destruction of Libya, we had rebellions in Mali and Niger. I'm talking about Tuareg rebellions. So we had two Tuareg rebellions in Niger. I'm talking about before 2010. And we have also a lot of Tuareg rebellions in Mali. This part of the of West Africa was a very, very troublesome situation. The situation was not really a peaceful situation.
The rise of al Qaeda and Islamic State in Sahel also helped to destroy the situation and the situation got worse. Since we had destruction of Libya, weapons coming from Libya to all of the Sahel from this moment to now, I mean, Sahel is facing, let's say, a very, very, very difficult situation. Even though we have a governance problem we have poverty, you have problem of education, but the destruction of Livya and also the fact that also the society was also disturbed by the Tuareg rebellion. So we have a kind of dangerous situation in which a simple conflict can become, something that cannot be managed easily. Currently what we are facing, we have to face terrorism, we have to also to face junta, who seems to not accept democracy, or to organise election, democratic election. It seems that we have military who want to stay in power, they do not really have the intention to give back the power to civilian.
So we have to fight with all these things in Sahel. So that means that currently I can say that I'm very pessimistic, but there is no way to see if Sahel can be a land in which we can have peace. If you take example of Mali, in Mali, you have two dangerous situation, you have terrorism. And we also have the uprising, also the coming back of Tuareg rebellion. I'm talking about cruelty restriction in Mali. And you know that the Tuareg in Mali, they are cousins of Tuareg in Niger, and also Tuareg in Burkina Faso. So we can have a situation in which all the countries will face new rebellions. New Tuareg rebellions added to terrorism.
Juanita Williams 26:26
Has it been your experience, that the youth are caught up in what the military junta and the leaders are promising them? Because what Ibrahim is saying is like, you know, they are promised, that there is going to be progress, because now they are people in power that is not the government,
Gare Amadou 26:49
I can say that, you know what, when they take the power and they overthrow a democratically elected regime, they promise to change the situation of the country. They promise to give prosperity to change the way education was set up in countries, so but if I understand what you're saying, if you see the situation really, we can see that there is no really change. So there is just military leaders who will think that they can go in a way to to have the people with them, by saying that, I will do that, I will do that, I will do that. Because, as you know, everyone lives with hope, without hope there is nothing, so they know that and they can make some promises.
But at the end, we know that nothing will change. These countries faces a lot of coups. I'm talking about Niger, Burkina Faso and Mali, but those countries are still the poorest ones in the world. So what can you say about that?
Juanita Williams 27:58
I mean, I do want to stay Thank you. I do want to stay on the subject of the youth and their involvement in peacebuilding. And their involvement in what is happening in the Sahel now. Now, a lot of the challenges that the continent faces is because there are too many leaders that do not want to give up power, whether they have been elected and those elections are called democratic, or whether they have taken, you know, power by force. It's the power grab, and the youth that are struggling to see themselves in the governments of Africa. How do you think that applies to the Sahel specifically, Festus?
Dr Festus Kofi Aubyn 28:43
Yes, well, I mean, when it comes to leadership, on the continent, the situation in other places is not too different. From the Sahel region, I think that the issue is about giving the youth opportunity to also contribute to governance within the Sahel not really about the becoming president or leaders of this country, because I'm yet to actually see any empirical evidence of whether old people as presidents and use as precedent, whether they perform better than the old people or the old people perform better than the youth.
So for me, I think that the most important issue here is giving the youth also opportunities, equal opportunities, to also contribute to governance, development, the security within the Sahel. Very often, the youth have been marginalised or they've been excluded from decision-making. They've been excluded when it comes to critical issues of governance within the Sahel, and if you look at the Sahel, it is a very youthful population, if you look at the demographics, and that is why it is important to involve the youth, create opportunities for them, especially dealing with also issues that affect the youth, like issues around unemployment, you have a lot of graduates who have no jobs to do. And that is why you see a lot of them taking the very dangerous routes to Europe through Libya, you know, so the key issue for me is creating opportunities, mentoring the youth, because the youth also need some form of mentorship in order to meaningfully contribute to governance and development within their various countries. I'm saying this because we've seen in other parts of West Africa, where some youth have been given opportunities, and they are not actually doing different, anything different from their old counterparts.
When it comes to corruption, you find a lot of them also involved in that. It also is important that they are groomed, they are mentored, they are given the capacity to meaningfully contribute to governance and development within the Sahel and also taking away all the barriers that prevent the active involvement in governance, in politics, in development and also in governance within the Sahel region, because the future belongs to the youth, because they constitute majority of the population. And not only even the youth, the women as well need to be given equal opportunity to contribute to the development of their respective countries.
So I will not pitch it around only political leadership given allowing the youth to become political leaders or president or whatever. The issue is about capacity. And we need to build the capacity, mentor the youth to be able to contribute meaningfully when they get the opportunity to serve their respective countries.
Juanita Williams 32:51
You were saying, w ell, we can't peace build when when there's a military junta who doesn't even want to transition. So where does that leave us? How does the peacebuilding community approach that kind of problem?
Dr Festus Aubyn 33:06
Well, I think that for the military junta, that for me, I think that the only people who can really bring a lot of pressure to bear on them is the population, the civilian population. I think it just a matter of time. See, when people jubilated when the coup happened in all these three countries, it doesn't mean they think the military government will do better or they are the panacea or solution to their problem.
It's just that they wanted an end of an era, so that they could have something new that could help them meet the challenges that their countries are facing. And it's just a matter of time for these people to realise that indeed, this military juntas came, not for the good of the country but they came to also remain in power or to taste power. Because if you came to actually liberate the people or emancipate the people, then you should be willing to go through the necessary process to transition power to a civilian authority.
But where you become power drunk, where you may want to entrench yourself in power, then it means that you didn't really come to really pursue the interests of the country. Because the military's role is not to come and rule countries. The military is to protect the territorial integrity of states. You know, so you hand over power, you go back to the barracks, but if you entrench yourself, it's just a matter of time, and you see a lot of public dissatisfaction, perhaps protests and demonstrations against these military regimes, which could also lead to countercoups within this respective countries.
Juanita Williams 35:13
It came, would you like to comment on that? Because I was speaking about what you had said about the fact that it's, you know, it's not possible to peacebuild in a situation like that. So where does that leave us?
Prof Ibrahim Bangura 35:30
Peacebuilding comes in different shapes and forms. You have peacebuilding at the national level. And you have peacebuilding at the sub national, and then the grassroots level. It does not mean when I was referring to challenges, political issues and difficulties with transition, I was not indicating that peacebuilding efforts should not go on. You know, it's not like um ... there's a progressive approach I mean things that you do they go alongside whatever challenge is there. I'm sure as we speak, there are many initiatives funded by different actors in local communities and across the countries in the Sahel, there's a massive investment in peacebuilding. And I'm also aware of investment in young people, youth organisations, women, women's organisations, and all of this is ongoing.
But you have ... if you go back to the Johan Galtung triangle, the ABC triangle that speaks to Attitude, Behaviour and Context, it will provide an indication to you that at the end of the day, if the context does not change, we'll go back to business as usual. So it's a revolving door. Peacebuilding efforts in the Sahel have been there forever. We've had military coups before, we've had wars in some of these countries and Amadou referred to that. It's been ongoing. And this has also been a very restless part of the continent. So these efforts have been going on but because the politics in these countries have not changed, because there is a consistent vassal to bad governance, corruption, maladministration and all the other challenges, you know, so it becomes a revolving door.
Ten years of investment in peacebuilding will go down the drain, one day, boom, there's war or a military coup. Explosive, you will begin from scratch. So there has to be a deliberate, consistent and clear approach, which is not limited only to the leadership or the people in this country. But this is where institutions like ECOWAS, the African Union, and you know, United Nations, could provide the required political support, but, but again, some of these institutions have also lost their credibility. For instance, ECOWAS, you know, even when we had leaders in the region running for the third time, you will have ECOWAS delegations endorsing some of these decisions, Constitutional breaches in some of these countries. So they've lost their credibility, and even the opportunity and the wherewithal they had in the past to be critical, because they don't have the moral standing anymore.
The AU is all functional but in name it has proved to be not as useful, as it should have been. The UN ... um, they do bits here and there. And we saw the way MINUSMA was asked out of Mali. And we see what's happening with the French and others, even with the Americans in a place like Niger. So what these leaders are also doing is to play with the emotions of people and the mindsets of people. And I think Amadou mentioned this, they come in as liberators, make a lot of promises, but people just want to see change, because they also do not have trust in political, the political elites that are there. But we know the relationship is short lived. It's not going to last for long, people are going to come back to this and say 'But ah, these ones are ... these elites are not going to go away.'
These are these are sometimes bigger, larger than the system. These are systems that have been there for years, established the state within the states, you know going to eradicate, I mean, keep all of them away in one night. And that realisation came very early in a place like Tunisia, where young people protested for change, believe that they changed the system only to realise that those that were kicked out, returned in different shapes and forms. So we need to have a clear understanding as to if we say peace building in the Sahel, what does it mean? What should it constitute? What is the nature, the structure and the spirit of peacebuilding within the Sahel.
And the Sahel is not a homogeneous entity. These are about nine states we're talking about from Burkina Faso, to Senegal, Sudan, a lot of these you know, Sudan has its own challenges. Warlords, egocentric human beings, kill 1000s of people within a very short period and there is no end in sight, there is no end in sight. So it has become a lot more complex. When we look at peacebuilding, we need to also understand how we can frame it within the context of the kinds of contextual changes that we want to see, that will ensure that peacebuilding becomes sustainable.
And also, what are the kinds of transformative changes that will be there in relation to dealing with especially young people? One of my studies that I always refer to is a 2016 publication with a short title 'We Can't Eat Peace'. In French they say 'Nous ne pouvons pas manger la paix'. You can talk about peacebuilding in the most fantastic of senses. Wherever there is no positive transformation in the lives of young people, they're not going to change. They're going to continue to want to fend for themselves and their families. They want to, they can use any nefarious means that is out there to survive. How do you in a very realistic and pragmatic sense also engage young people? And we're also looking at the question of gender here, where we're talking about a region where for decades women have been marginalised and infantilized. Did not have a voice, did not have a place, did not even have a say in some of these societies.
You know, there are different levels of anger and frustration in the Sahel. And this is compounded by the unprecedented humanitarian needs. You have refugee camps across the Sahel, there's the question of the ongoing armed conflict, the question of poverty, the question of climate change, food insecurity, compounded by political instability. I think peacebuilders on the continent need to take a step back and engage. And when I say peacebuilders, I'm talking about those at the research level, practitioners that do everyday peacebuilding, people like Festus cut across all.
We talk about trainers, and then we'll also look at the regional institutions. How do we support peacebuilding? In a proper sense? What is it that ECOWAS and other institutions in the region and the EU should do that should be different that will re-earn them their credibility, that they could be able to engage and support some of these nations. Ecowas made a hasty conclusion on the Niger coup, threatening to get the coupists out. And they could not live up to their promise, which also dented them further. Right? So there is a lot ongoing, and there is the need for us to step back. Rethink, you know, restrategize, and then see how we can engage people within these countries and supports them in the most effective sense. Thank you.
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Gare Amadou 43:23
I would like to add something about it. So what I want to say is, we are talking about peacebuilding in countries which are the poorest one, let's say in Africa, let's say in the world. If you want to, let's say set up a strategy of peacebuilding in this country, I mean, the first thing you should do is to fight against poverty. I think this is the first step we should follow. Fight against poverty. If you fight against poverty, then you can go to the second step to set up ... I'm talking about national dialogue. I'm talking about, let's say, international community involvement in managing problems of the society. So the first step, if you want, let's say, to have a real peacebuilding in these countries, you should fight against poverty. First of all, what is democracy in countries in which people do not have enough to eat?
They are suffering with poverty, and unemployment. And they're also facing insecurity. So if you want to set up a strategy of peacebuilding, I think that the first thing you should do. I mean, engage strategy to set up this project or programme that can really fight against poverty in this country. We have a saying in my country: Someone who is hungry, cannot, let's say, even think about something. He's not able to think about something.
So we should fight against poverty. First of all, because we are talking about let's see, I can repeat it. Countries who are the poorest country in the world, according to UNDP assessment made every year before, let's say, engaging a kind of peacebuilding programme in country that saying that yeah, you have we should have dialogue with religious leaders, with women, youth and everything, we should fight against poverty. This is my opinion.
Juanita Williams 45:17
Festus, would you like to add anything to ...
Dr Festus Aubyn 45:19
Professor Ibrahim and Amadou have actually mentioned all the key points because most of the time when we are dealing with peacebuilding, we focus on the peace elements and leave the economic dimension. You see when people are hungry, peace is nothing to them. And also it is important that we highlight the economic dimension of peacebuilding, which will go a long way to actually address the socio-economic needs of the population, which is actually one of the main factors fuelling most of the conflicts that we find within the region. So it's very important and I fully support all the points that has been raised by my colleagues.
Juanita Williams 46:23
Thank you. I'll be reaching the end, for you to add anything that you feel like you needed to that wasn't covered?
Prof Ibrahim Bangura 46:32
Yes, two very short points. One, the historical marginalisation not just a few, but also of minority groups. Some of these countries should be looked at very closely. And also, there's historical trauma in these countries, sometimes transgenerational trauma. And if you look at the investment in mental health and psychosocial support, extremely limited. So there is a strong link with between MHPSS and peacebuilding. It comes to healing and reconciliation, it also has to do with the mindset. You cannot compound people with years, you know of trauma, and then expect that they just going to change overnight and embrace peace.
No.
And there's also the question of when do perpetrators become victims, because society can reformat itself. So this is what we see in some of the coup d'etats. We as a society, you see all of these young people going after ... bombing the houses of politicians, supporting military regimes, you know, so you see, there is that anger that is deep-rooted, deep-seated up from, you know, the perception of how people have been ill treated over time. And even these countries are demonstrating that perception against France, that for decades, for centuries. In fact, 'You did this to us, now is our time to fight you back in a way that you thought ... you never thought would ever be possible'.
But my final words on this, they need to step back, reassess peacebuilding, to make our interventions meaningful. And this is where you need to have institutions like Wanep, and also centres of excellence in the region, think tanks to sit and say, okay, what should we do? And what should we do that will be very different from what we've been using for decades that have so far, not worked? Thank you.
Gare Amadou 48:47
I mean, my last word is that left to show the situation we are facing currently in my country is at the beginning of disappointments from the population. I mean, the situation is very, very, very, very bad. You know, that international economical sanctions on the country begin to have effect on the everyday life of the people. I'm talking about the increasing of prices of essential needs. Talking about the lack of cash in banks, this kind of situation cannot help. Let's say the transition to go on or to go to a step in which we can have a say, organising election, then even we do not have even the first step which is the national dialogue between people. Because you have one part of the population supporting the junta and we have other parts of population supporting the former regime, saying that they wanted the former president to be back in power and to continue to managing the country.
Juanita Williams 49:53
Festus?
Dr Festus Aubyn 49:55
Okay, so just to also add that I think the role of civil society is also key role of the media role of youth groups, women groups are also very key alongside state-led interventions. And it's important that whatever intervention is being taken by international partners, and by national actors, they need an active involvement of civil society, academia, the media, because when you have the whole of society approach, it leads to a more sustainable solution than few people deciding for the entire population. The other thing also is the role of ECOWAS, the African Union, I think this is the time they have to demonstrate leadership in managing our issues, and not to be influenced by any external actors.
They should look at the issues on ground and look at how best they can complement the effort of the state in stabilising the situation and to achieve sustainable peace in these countries. The third is that we need to know that all these great powers that are within our region are here for their interests, they are not here for the interests of anybody. I'm referring to France, US, Russia, China, Turkey, and all these actors, they are just here to pursue their interests.
And I think it is time that Africans become very circumspect in terms of our dealings with these actors, to ensure that we have our own homegrown solutions to deal with our problems. So that these actors do not dictate how our transitions should be like. Then my last and final word is about democracy, and democratic governance. And how we have practised it within the past three decades.
The evidence on ground shows that there is a need for constitutional reforms, to make sure that the people are placed at the centre of governance, and not the political class or the political leaders, thank you.
Juanita Williams 52:39
Ja, I just want to say thanks so much for joining us and for sharing your expertise. I'm sure that in future we will find opportunities to call you as we continue our peacebuilding projects at allAfrica. Thanks so much for your time. Really appreciate it. (Special thanks to Nontobeko Mlambo for co-producing this episode)
AllAfrica's reporting on peacebuilding is supported by a grant from Carnegie Corporation of New York.
