Ambassador Aminu Bashir Wali, 83, has left footprints in business, politics and diplomacy. He served in many positions such as Permanent Representative of Nigeria in the United Nations, Nigeria's Ambassador to the People's Republic of China, and between 2014 and 2015, Minister of Foreign Affairs. In this interview, he shares his experiences, including his close relationship with the late former Head of State, General Murtala Mohammed.

Can we start with a bit of your background in Kano?

I was born in Dawakin Tofa Local Government because my father was a judge in Dawakin Tofa in 1941. But he eventually came back to Kano and became the Chief Alkali of Kano, and later, Wali of Kano.

Wali means chief judge?

No; Alkali is the chief judge. Wali is more like the person in charge of all legal issues, all the judges in Kano Emirate. That's my background.

I wanted to be a lawyer, but somehow, by virtue of whatever, I was unable to achieve that dream. I even got admission to read a legal course. I attended primary school and Kofar Kudu Elementary School.

In Kano or Dawaki?

In Kano. We left Dawaki when I was only one year old. I also attended Gidan Makama Elementary School for one year and went to Kano Middle School in 1952/1953. My father died in December 1952 and I will always remember that the following year, in January, I went to the middle school. It was a boarding school.

From middle school, we were technically the first set in Kano Provincial Secondary School, which is today called Rumfa College. I got into the college in 1955 and was there till I got my school certificate. From there, I moved to the School for Arabic Studies.

My first choice was to go and read Law, so I applied to the Ahmadu Bello University (ABU) for a legal course that had 9-month duration. It was for intermediates. And when you finished you would go to the United Kingdom and study for the Bar.

I filled my forms and I sent to Kaduna, but when the results came out, I was never called for interview. Based on my West African School Certificate result, they just offered me a place at Kongo, ABU, Zaria, and I never knew. They communicated to Kano Provincial Secondary School and the school forwarded it to the School of Arabic Studies in Kano for me to be informed.

The School of Arabic Studies (SAS) was the nucleus of Bayero College, which ended up as Bayero University, Kano (BUK).

The secondary school forwarded the letter of admission to Kongo in Zaria and the School of Arabic Studies, but the principal was trying to build his own school, and in our class, a lot of our mates failed the school certificate examination and he was rather protective of the good materials. So I never knew that I got admission in Zaria.

You never knew until when?

After I went to Lagos. I went to the SAS and started my A-level in Arabic, Islamic History and English Literature. And of course, when I left, I was not happy with the prospect of being a teacher because the combination I had for Higher School Certificate (HSC) was that automatically, wherever you went you would eventually end up as a teacher. And in those days, Northern Nigeria was looking for teachers. Whatever you did, they always sent you to be a teacher. I eventually became comfortable being a teacher.

In the First Republic, there was one parliamentary secretary, Abdulkadir Koguna, who was the permanent secretary in the Ministry of Establishment in Lagos. He came touring northern states to recruit young people to join the Civil Service of the Federation.

He came to the SAS and gave us lecture and I was one of the people that volunteered to go to Lagos. So, I left the SAS after about six months and went to the Federal Training Centre (FTC), Lagos. I had no idea what was being taught there.

It was only when I got to the Federal Training Centre, Lagos that I found out that they were training us (to be) stenographers, Grade 2.

To become secretaries?

Yes. I remember one episode in my class in FTC when Shehu Shagari was the Minister of Establishment, where the school was domiciled.

When he came to visit, he stopped at my desk and asked: "Where are you from?" I said I was from Kano. He asked about the school I attended and I told him. He continued: "What grade do you have? Who brought you here?" I told him. He said I was not supposed to be there. I found out that when we got there, some of our classmates from the South were from secondary, class 3.

And you already had Higher School Certificate?

I started HSC and finished my school certificate Grade 2 with a lot of distinctions and what have you.

Shagari said that since I had been there and had gone a little bit far, there was no point telling me to pull out. So, I went ahead and completed the course.

It was in FTC, Lagos that one fellow, who was given admission at Kongo to read Law met me and asked what I was doing there. He said I was supposed to be in my house in Kongo. He said so because we were given houses.

As students?

Yes. He said my house was at Kongo and I was nowhere to be seen. I told him that I did not have an idea.

Was he a student?

Yes.

Did you feel tempted to leave and pursue your dream of becoming a lawyer?

No. They had gone a bit far, so there was no way I could go and join them. So I decided to just finish the programme.

I finished and qualified as a stenographer, grade 2. My first boss was one white man, Mr Wally, an Englishman. He was the senior assistant secretary in the Federal Ministry of Works.

I was posted to the Ministry of Works. I was later posted to work with the secretary, Federal Tenders Board. I was the secretary.

One Mr Erunse called me and said, "From what I read about you, you are not supposed to be doing this job. Why don't you go and pursue higher education?" I said, "Well, this is where I am." He said, alright.

He referred me to a school in the UK, North Western Polytechnic, which is today the North London University. I applied and they replied me based on my submission. They replied that I had been given admission.

I went to the Northern Nigeria Scholarship Board, Kaduna and presented my letter of admission. I was to study at the Chatham Institute of Secretaries because not many universities or polytechnics were doing Business Administration. Chatham Institute of Secretaries was a professional body. People like the late Ibrahim Damcida graduated from that school.

Tell me about your experience as a young man from Kano going to Lagos to study and work in the early 1960s.

I was lucky because I had relatives in Lagos. When I arrived in Lagos, it was Abdulkadir Koguna that accommodated us because he recruited four of us from Kano. There was one Mahmud Salim, now late, and Umaru Salihi, who later left us and went into the military. There was also Bello Farouk. We stayed in Koguna's house.

One Friday, I went to Inuwa Wada's house; we are cousins, same with his wife. But Wada had travelled.

Was he a minister then?

He was a minister of works. I think he had some eye problems, so he went for treatment.

So, you were very comfortable because you had relatives in Lagos?

Wada's wife was my big sister, so, she said I should come although her husband was not around. So, I moved to his house.

Socially, how was it for you as a young man in Lagos? Did you experience any unpleasant aspect of life while integrating?

No. In those days, most young people in the North, particularly the young educated ones, were more inclined to politics. They were supporters of the Northern Elements Progressive Union (NEPU).

In Lagos?

No; in Kano and other parts of the North. In the politics of those days, anybody from the North was in the Northern People's Congress (NPC). I also got involved; I mean, I got a lot of friends who came from various parts of northern Nigeria, such as the late Shehu Kangiwa. That was where I first met him in Lagos.

From Sokoto?

Yes. Also, Alu Ambursa from Kebbi. A lot of people from Adamawa.

What of soldiers?

Yes.

Your name is always linked with Murtala Mohammed, how are you connected to him?

Well, Murtala Mohammed was also my cousin. My father was at one time the head of the family. I was close to Murtala, right from secondary school. He was at Barewa College, while I was at Rumfa.

Every time they came for long holidays we were always together. Our parents had died, so we tended to be together most of the time throughout the holidays. I and Murtala were very close while growing up. He was three years my senior. He finished in 1957 in Barewa, Zaria and I finished in 1960.

By the time I got to Lagos, he was already an officer; I think a full lieutenant. He later became a captain.

Were you still close while in Lagos?

Yes; it was kind of a family affair.

Through him, I got to know a lot of military officers. Funny enough, he was going for a course as a captain at the School of Signals, Yorkshire in the UK.

On my first trip to UK to join my school, we were on the same flight. He showed me the way around in London. I got a room in North London. He showed me around before he went to his own school.

How was London for you?

I would say I was fairly spoilt because I had Murtala with me, who was already a captain in the military. And I met my elder brother, Justice Abubakar Wali, may his soul rest in peace. I met him when he was about to finish his law studies in the UK. I was with him for about one and a half years before he left. So, I didn't find it difficult at all.

I also enjoyed my stay there because I was one of the fairly wealthy students. I was able to get in with the BBC and get a programme every week (Sunday) to produce a programme called London Calling. I was paid £5 a week for each programme. So I had £20 extra. My allowance from the Northern Nigeria Government was £39 a month and I was able to get another £20.

What gave you the idea to go to the BBC and suddenly become a broadcaster?

While I was in secondary school, another elder brother of mine, Ambassador Umar Bashir Wali, was the first within our family to go to the UK. He studied Comparative Law in the London School of Oriental and African Studies.

While he was there, I was in secondary school and I always ran around three 3o'clock to get a radio and listen to him because he was a Hausa contributor in the BBC programme.

So, he was also broadcasting as a student?

Exactly.

Abubakar Wali also did the same thing?

Yes.

So, it ran in the family?

Exactly. When I got there, I also found a way of making extra money.

Inuwa Wada had a house in London. In fact, when the1966 coup happened, fortunately, he was in Switzerland for an eye operation. He was the Minister of Defence. He was lucky because if he had been in Nigeria, he would have been the first target.

When he finished his treatment in Switzerland, he crossed over to London. He had one small house. I moved into the house before he came. And when he came, I moved out of my bedroom and he stayed there.

My closest friend and classmate right from Form One to Form Six, Mohammed Ibrahim, came to meet me in London.

The broadcaster?

Yes.

He came to London to be a broadcaster?

Yes, BBC. We lived in the same house for all the years until I left him there.

My horizon was widened when I was in London. I came across a lot of people from all parts of Nigeria. I became very close to a lot of them.

In my college, funny enough, most of the Nigerians in the North Western Polytechnic were from Adamawa. That's where I met Bamanga Tukur and Hassan Adamu.

Wakilin Adamawa?

That's right; and his younger brother, Gambo of blessed memory, as well as Mahmud Waziri. Most of my mates in North Western Polytechnic were from Adamawa.

I remember that Bamanga Tukur had about three months before he left. He was the one that took me to his bank, close to the college to be my guarantor. He introduced me to the bank to open my account. We have been very close, up to today.

It was a very challenging time. We were very young and wanted to do all the things that young people would want to do. But when one thought that one was coming back home, one would have to try and do what one was supposed to do because one would not come back home empty-handed.

So, you came home with a degree or diploma?

It was CIS.

A certification?

Yes; associate with the Chatham Institute of Secretaries.

Did you go back to Lagos to continue your work?

No. I came back in 1968 and landed in Kano. The first port of call was Inuwa Wada's house. Some of them were crying, and when I asked what happened, they said the police came and took him away. I asked why and my cousin, the eldest wife, told me that it was Gambo Jimeta. Ironically, we were together with him in Lagos before I went to the UK. Now, it was Gambo that came to the house and carried him.

Was he in Kano as a senior police officer?

Yes; he was a DSP. The very day I arrived was the day they carried Wada away.

That singular action was the opening for me not to go into the civil service but the private sector.

I went to the police headquarters in Kano and saw Wada sitting in the outer office. I greeted him and I went to see Gambo. I and Gambo fought, because I couldn't understand why he could do that kind of nonsense. He was shouting and I was shouting. He said he would lock me and I told him to go ahead.

Murtala was already in Dodan Barracks and there was an allegation that Inuwa Wada, his cousin, was funding him to stage a coup.

Was that the basis of his arrest?

Yes. They went into the house, searched everywhere, and carried all the papers and some trinkets for the women. That's why I fought with Gambo.

Murtala then marched into Dodan Barracks. But Gen Gowon asked who was messing up with Murtala and ordered them to bring him. He told him about the allegation and said they were locking his cousin up in Kano. Immediately, Yakubu Gowon called Audu Bako, the then governor of Kano, and said they should let Inuwa Wada go home.

When that happened, I thought that after about a week I would go to Kaduna and report that I was back and the Interim Common Services would send me back with my paper to Kano State.

Because they funded your studies in London?

Yes. I told Wada that I was going. They carried him along with Ado Kurawa, the Sarkin Fadan Kano now. He was the manager of SAYEN NAGARI, Wada's company - transportation and few other things.

So, as part of the attempt to probe Wada, they arrested his manager?

Yes; they took him away. Wada came home, but they kept Kurawa.

When I told Wada that I was going to Kaduna and they would post me to wherever they wanted, he said I should not do that to him, because the children were not yet fully grown. He pleaded that I should stay and look after his business.

As manager?

Yes; up to when Kurawa would come out. I said okay because I could not turn him down. That was the beginning of the end of civil service for me.

So, you left the civil service?

I never got into the civil service.

You never did? And they didn't complain that you disappeared after training you?

No. I didn't disappear. I went to Kaduna and said I had finished and this is what I was doing, and they didn't have any problem with that.

Let's talk about your years in business. I think you became a very wealthy businessman. How long did it take you to do that?

As I said, I started with Inuwa Wada's outfit, a transportation company. We were also selling quite a few things in some parts of Kano.

Later, Wada got a Chinese partner to set up a match manufacturing company. When they came, he decided that since Ado Kurawa was out, I was probably better placed to work with the Chinese. I said okay and became the general manager of the Nigeria Match and Chemical Industries. You know the old Daily Mail building, close to Plaza Cinema in Kano?

The Daily Mail newspaper?

Yes. It was owned by the Northern People's Congress. Daily Comet was being printed in Kano. It was a NEPU/NCNC thing. The NPC did not have any voice anywhere, so they set up the Daily Mail. It was a big building next to Plaza Cinema.

So, I joined the Nigeria Match and Chemical Industries as general manager with the Chinese managing director.

It was me that went and negotiated with the Kano State Government to lease the premises of Daily Mail because after the coup, the thing just reverted to Kano State. We were producing matches.

I was all over the place--Kaduna to print the labels and Lagos to clear our imported raw materials and what have you. So I was there with Inuwa Wada.

After about three years, I realised my limitations, so I went to Wada and told him that I wanted to move to Lagos because when I was in SAYEN NAGARI we had an office in Apapa, where trucks were loaded to Kano and I was shuttling between Kano and Lagos. There was an office in Lagos also for the match factory, so I told him that I wanted to go and stay there. He asked why and I said I was going to continue serving the Match and Chemical Industry and the SAYEN NAGARI Company and I didn't want any remuneration.

I wanted to go and start doing something and my job at the same time. I would try to look for an opportunity where I could also be doing something that was mine.

Finally, we agreed and I went to Lagos. I was staying in his house in Apapa. And of course, Murtala was already settled.

Where was he then? Was he a minister?

No.

Was this in the early 1970s?

Yes. I went there and eventually got involved with one businessman, Alhaji Amadu Yaro, who was from Kano.

I was in my office in Apapa when he called me and said there were some investors from the United States and he wanted me to meet them and discuss business because he was not that educated. But he did a lot of businesses, including Bureau de Change.

When I was in Lagos, I picked one contract here and there and made £100, £150 and £200. I was staying in Murtala's house.

Eventually, I and that person ( Amadu Yaro) were able to start doing serious business with a lot of Indians and Lebanese because he knew a lot of them.

But these Americans that came in triggered my being with him. They were fraudsters. They came in a private aircraft, but I think they duped him, took his money and left. That was the beginning of my business as an individual.

I got married when I was in SAYEN NAGARI. So, I was living with my family in Lagos.

I knew a lot of military officers who were my contemporaries, even though Murtala was three years ahead of me. Most of the senior officers were my contemporaries.

I first met Babangida when he was a lieutenant in Kano when I came on holidays from the UK in 1965.

In those days, not much opportunity existed outside the government, so, I got involved in dealing with certain materials for the military.

I remember that one General from Shendam; I have forgotten his name, gave me an order to bring what they put in the ear for artillery.

Eardrums?

Yes.

To protect them from sound?

Exactly. He gave me the contract to supply a very small thing. Each pair was N8 or N10.

I went to the UK where they were doing it. The quotation they gave me was N9 per thing. I went and found out that it wasn't more than N1 per thing. The officer was the late Martin Adamu.

The GOC?

The one that bought everything - Quartermaster-general.

I went to him and said that I didn't want this thing. I said I was given N9 but it was not more than N1, so, I didn't want anybody to come after me and say that I was a thief. I said they should review it, but he said they could not review it, explaining that it was the standard. I said they should keep it if that was the standard because I had always been conscious of what was legitimate and illegitimate.

As we got along, I and Amadu started doing some construction here and there. And we started growing.

Eventually, we got one Dutch company to have partnership them. I was able to get the contract for 1004 in Victoria Island in Lagos. That was long after Murtala had died.

The late Air Vice Marshal Mukhtar Muhammad was the Federal Commissioner for Housing. I went to him and he told me what they intend to do in Victoria Island, 1004 units.

I told him that one Dutch company would do the job at N120 million. I called the Dutch people and we sat down and looked at it and they said they would do it at N80 million. I went back to Mukhtar and he thanked me, saying I saved him an embarrassment. He said I could go on and have a good start in that area. So, the first major project I was involved in was 1004 in Lagos.

Are you aware that people think you became rich because of your link with Murtala?

Well, I don't know. Murtala was very careful in what he did. He never looked for money; it was not his business.

When he was head of state, I told him that people were pushing and asking for favours. He asked for what and I said they were talking about oil blocs. People were talking to me about it.

Because they knew you were close to him?

Yes. He asked if I knew where they came from and I said no. He said I should go and see Gaddafi.

Gaddafi?

Yes. He said he would send me to Gaddafi if that was what I wanted and if I was able to succeed in getting any oil, that was my business because nobody would say he was taking Nigeria's wealth. That's what transpired between me and Murtala.

Did he send you to Gaddafi?

Unfortunately, no. He died before that.

Is it true that Murtala, at some point, returned some money to the government and cleaned himself up?

Of all the relatives we have, I was the closest person to Murtala. We were closer than my own siblings.

A lot of times, just before he became the head of state, he would come to the house and say there was no money to pay for children's school fees, and it was either we paid or they would kick them out of school.

And he was not ashamed, neither would he hesitate to tell me or any of our friends what he did not have or what he could not afford to do. And sometimes he would sit down and say that as human, he would like to do what his colleagues were doing, but he could not because he didn't want anybody to tell him to return anything. He treasured his pride. I am telling you that Murtala didn't have anything.

Even as head of state?

Not at all.

Where were you when he was killed?

I was in Lagos. The last time I saw him was on a Thursday night. Normally, every day we went for Asr prayer, then Maghrib and Ishah.

When we left his house on Second Avenue he would get into my car and we would drive. Whoever was coming behind us would follow me to Dodan Barracks, where we would go and sit in ADC'S House.

He didn't go into the main house?

He didn't go into the house. He would go to the ADC's house and a lot of friends close friends. We would play cards and discuss issues etc.

That Thursday, in the afternoon, there was one Igbo friend of mine. We were together in the UK. He was successful in the oil business. He came to my house crying and saying? "Aminu look at what Sunday Awoniyi is doing to me; Asiodu is being kicked out of the Ministry of Petroleum."

Awoniyi replaced Asiodu as a permanent secretary?

Yes. He came holding documents and was crying. He pleaded that I should help him because we were students in the UK. I said no problem and asked to see the documents. He gave me the documents that Thursday and I went to Murtala's house.

We went to the ADC's house at Dodan Barracks around 9 o'clock. He knew him as my friend. I told him what they were doing to him and we went and fought them.

He said we should meet him the following day after prayers at the mosque so that we would sort it out. He never went.

Was he going to office in the morning?

The last time I saw him was about 10pm that Thursday, with the understanding that I would go after mosque and meet him.

People say he was casual with his security. What do you think about this?

As I said, I was probably the closest person to Murtala. Every afternoon, if I were in town, I would go to the house. After Asr prayers, he would enter my vehicle, which was a two-door car. He would come out, go around and look at some projects, just me and him, even as head of state.

You were a fairly successful businessman in Lagos. Was that the motivation for you to go into politics?

My going into politics was not accidental. I was in school politics. I was a minister of games and drama. We had a parliamentary system in the faculty where every student was a member of parliament. Then they elected their ministers, so I was elected. I was minister of games and drama because I was very active sports-wise.

Also, I and (Prof Dandatti) Abdulkadir used to go and listen to NEPU lectures in town, where Aminu Kano and co would be talking. And of course, you know that Aminu Kano was an uncle of mine. He and my father were first cousins.

Usman Dantata (may his soul rest in peace) and Isyaku Ibrahim, came to my house in Kano and said they were coming out of a national movement meeting, where they gave my name as a member of the finance committee. I asked who told them to do that, but they kept pushing.

Because they knew you had some money?

They left me but they would always come in and out. They kept pushing. And of course, eventually, a lot of my friends like Shehu kangiwa of blessed memory stepped in and said I should better come.

So, you made an attempt to become the governor of Kano State in 1983?

Oh yes.

How was the experience?

It was a very tough thing because politics then was what it is supposed to be. If you were a member of the National Party of Nigeria (NPN), for example, no matter what anybody would give you, you would never vote for them, and vice versa because you believed solidly in your party, its principles and what it promised.

For me, I came in by accident. I had a group that asked me to go for the chairmanship of the party in the state. I and Muhammadu Maude contested, and at the end of the day, they said I lost.

So, I packed my things and went back to Lagos to build my business. One day, I was sitting in my house and Isyaku Rabiu appeared, saying although there was no provision for the position of a deputy chairman, those in Kano created one and I had to come because if I didn't, everything would not be normal.

Members of my team were all professionals and independent people, such as Bashir Tofa, Bashir Dalhatu, Usman Alhaji, Isyaku Mohammed. They were educated and could take care of themselves.

I led a team to go and look for a candidate for the governorship of Kano State.

The first port of call was the then managing director of the UBA, Suleiman Baffa because we were together in the Kano Middle School. I was the person that said he was the best person to run for the governorship of Kano State. We flew all the way to Lagos to present our case.

So, at that time people would approach those they thought were the best for political positions?

Yes. We decided to pick the best person.

Do you regret the experience of trying to be a governor?

I have no regrets. I think I just felt sorry for Kano for not returning either me or Rimi at that time.

You were offered ambassadorship to China, then the United Nations; how did you get into diplomatic positions?

It was equally accidental. I had never dreamt of going into diplomacy.

During the military dispensation, I held quite a few positions. I remember that I was the chairman of the Nigerian Engineering and Construction Company (NECO), which the Federal Government of Nigeria owned 60 per cent and Yugoslavia, 40 per cent. I was in Brazil doing my own thing when (Gen Shehu) Yar'adua called me and said they needed to replace the chairman who died and he had already submitted my name.

Was that part of your military network?

Exactly. I and Shehu met in Sokoto in January 1960, my last year in senior secondary school when we went for inter-provincial sports and became friends.

So, I came back and became the chairman of NECO. But I quit because I didn't want injustice; I didn't want thieves. I worked hard for whatever I have; I never involved the government.

How were you appointed a permanent representative in the United Nations?

After the election of Obasanjo for a second term, he had opposition within the party - the Peoples Democratic Party - and I was his advisor.

I was the special adviser to the president on National Assembly matters from 1999 to 2003.

I told him that his weakest point was the North West. I also told him what to do to get everybody. And he knew how much I put into his second term.

He also knew my closeness to people in the diplomatic area and my trip in and out of New York and a lot of other ambassadors I knew.

Two or three days after he was sworn in for a second term, he told me that he knew I had done a lot and he really appreciated it. So he asked what I wanted. I told him that if he wanted me to serve, I would like to do that outside because I had stepped on many people's toes.

He asked where I wanted and I said anywhere. He asked if I wanted the United States but I told him that I didn't like the face of Bush; therefore I would not want to go to Washington.

He suggested the United Nations and I said I was okay with that. He said he thought I would like to go to some of the countries where I would rest, but I told him that I didn't want to go to any embassy to rest. I wanted something that would really help me to be active.

Did the UN come before China? Were you an ambassador in China?

No; UN first.

China was from (President Umaru) Yar'adua. In the UN I put in four years. After Yar'adua was sworn in, by July, I packed my things because my mandate was from Obasanjo.

The best thing I could do was to move out to allow the incoming president, Yar'adua send whoever he wanted without waiting until one was recalled. So I left.

After about 30 days back in Nigeria, my phone rang and President Yar'adua wanted to see me. When I went, he said he wanted a favour from me. He knew my relationship with his brother.

He wanted me to go to China, but I told him that in the diplomatic parlance, the position of a permanent representative of one's country to the UN was the height of diplomacy. The next thing you would probably accept was to be a foreign minister. However, I told him that I would do whatever he wanted me to do. That was how I went to China.

How was the experience?

It was marvelous.

Did you play any role in the Buhari government?

No. Although we were friends, the only time I saw Buhari as a president was on Remembrance Day for Murtala on February 13, 2016 at Hilton.

Tell us about the private Aminu Wali. What is your family life like?

I have one wife and four children. My wife is from Kebbi; we met when we were students in the UK.

Have you retired? What do you do?

I have retired because my son is taking over.

Politics and business, or everything handed over?

I am withdrawing.

It looks like you have given up Kano politics to Kwankwaso and his people after all the tussle; is that correct?

Well, Kwankwaso is somebody I cannot continue to tussle with. After all, basically in the PDP, I brought him in. God knows that I made him as governor because if I had said no, he couldn't have gotten that position.

What did you see in him?

I didn't see anything in him. The first person that brought Kwankwaso to me was Senator Hamisu Musa, who said he was a very nice boy. So I said I had no problem. But Rimi wanted me to run for the governorship position. He went all the way to my elder brothers in the city to force me to come and run for the position. But I said it was time for young people.

About two months ago, I went to see Iyorchia Ayu and he recalled how all of us founded the PDP. He added that we made a very big mistake because none of us went for an elective office but rather brought rookies who didn't even believe in what we believed.

I told him that if he had become the governor of Benue State, we wouldn't have ruffians in government. If we had people who appreciated the values we believed in, all this nonsense won't be happening.

But some of you became ministers and all that; what did you do?

That's true, but the survival of democracy, to me, is the function of the National Assembly because they can put a brake on the president. They can refuse so many things or they can pass laws, such that if he likes it or not, they can override him, according to the constitution and it becomes law.

So, if most of us had gone into the legislature, either at the federal level or government houses in the states, we wouldn't have been in this mess today.

As a veteran politician, how do you feel now seeing what is going on in the country?

What is going on today, from my perception, is not the politics I know. The perception of the common man in the street is that all politicians are thieves. So it is not good now for one to be called a politician. Before now, it was an honour to be a politician, to represent your people. They have destroyed that respect that politics brings to people.

You are 83 years old and you are still healthy; what do you do?

Oh, not really healthy, I am just trying to survive.

How do you spend your time?

I spend my time here. That house is my office, where I go to sit down and people come and we greet each other. I spend maybe an hour there and come back.

But you are mostly in Abuja, no more in Kano?

I go to Kano, but it is a very difficult place to be now, particularly being a former politician. I mean there may be about 500,000 people who have my number. That's why it is always switched off. The situation in Kano today is impossible because of the level of poverty.