Dakar — President Abdoulaye Wade of Senegal has been in power for almost one year, since defeating Abdou Diouf in March 2000. Diouf had been president of Senegal for 20 years and was leader of the Senegalese Socialist Party (SP) which had been at the helm of the country since independence in 1960.
Wade served twice as a minister of state in previous Diouf governments. He has strong views on a range of issues and is outspoken about what he wants for his country and for Africa.
Legislative elections loom in the near future. Friday president Wade gave a comprehensive and wide-ranging bilingual interview in French and English to a group of local, continental and international journalists -- including Ofeibea Quist-Arcton of AllAfrica.com -- at the presidential palace in the capital, Dakar.
In the interview the Senegalese president presented his views on a diverse array of subjects that included his architectural vision for the city of Dakar, Senegal's perceived success in its campaign against AIDS, and his wider hopes and plans for Africa.
In the past week,however, president Wade has had to face the wrath of university students, who have been boycotting lectures in protest at conditions and subsidies at the University of Cheikh Anta Diop in Dakar. In clashes with the police on Wednesday 31 January, one student was killed and the president has been trying to soothe an angry student population. Wade met with a student delegation earlier today. In this first part of his interview President Abdoulaye Wade announces that an inquiry into that death and the police use of force has been ordered. He also discusses Senegal's politics.
Q: Talking about the unfortunate events at the University of Cheikh Anta Diop in Dakar, it is rather a problem for you, isn't it, that the very students who supported you during the election last year are now protesting?
A: Absolutely. Unfortunate is not the word. I think its tragic, especially as I have enshrined in the republican constitution the right to march. This is the first time in the constitution that you see the right to march. You no longer need to get authorization for a march in Senegal. You just need to inform the Minister of the Interior, who does not have the right to ban it, unless in very serious circumstances, but who must make sure that there is basic security.
The timing is even more cruel you know, when you think that I was in St. Louis last week and met the university students. There was a faction that was contesting the cost of my visit. I didnt know how much it was costing. It was afterwards I was told that it cost CFA 25m. You know, I dont look into all the details of all my visits. Some students requested that I go and see them. They were in an office and I went to meet them before going into the lecture theatre to speak to all the students.
I had no problem with that and I went to see them. We were seated around a table, the atmosphere was good, it was a nice meeting. We chatted. They wanted to let me know, from the start, that it wasnt a case of demands they were making, but suggestions that would help resolve the problems of the students. They thought that the president couldnt be aware of all the details about the conditions.
It went very well, and when I went into the lecture hall in St Louis (Senegal's second university) to talk to everyone assembled there, I said to them that there were even some demands that they had forgotten! And then before you know it, look what happens (at the university in Dakar).
Of course, I have ordered an inquiry into the whole affair, from the police and from the judiciary, so that we have two independent enquiries and I cannot pre-empt their findings. But let me say that there are some worrying aspects to these troubles. The police is not armed. I regret to have to remind people, who assume that the police has weapons, that our police are not armed.
There were very few police officers at the university and they were overwhelmed. Anyone who knows the area will know that the local police station is quite far from the university campus. So, how could a shot have been fired all the way from there, because its been established that the shot was fired at very close range? This sort of thing has happened in the past, but were in a new era now.
I have even banned the use of teargas. But, as I said I cannot pre-empt the conclusions of the inquiry, but we have all the reasons to believe that it was not the police. But if the inquiry reveals who was responsible, then the person or persons will certainly have to face the law, because in our country, no one has the right to use firearms.
Q: You said last Wednesday that you are prepared to meet the students, when do you expect that will be?
It depends on them. Now, I have just buried their fellow student (Balla Gaye). It depends on the students, but I am ready to meet them.
Q: Students have accused you of not keeping your electoral promises.
A: Which electoral promises? Have they told you that? Well, theyve said nothing to me about it. I was right there in front of all the students and they didnt say anything about that. Today is the first time Im hearing about not honouring electoral promises from you. No student has said that to me. Never. What did I promise? What promises? We were all there during the election campaign. What did I promise during the elections? You are Senegalese, I am Senegalese, you were there during the campaign. What did I promise that I havent respected?
Q: But I am not the spokesman of the students...
A: Oh yes, you are speaking on behalf of the students. I want to remind you of something. During the election campaign, I did not make any promises to the youth. Everyone here knows that. I did not make any election campaign promises. I did not say I was going to create a thousand, twenty thousand, thirty thousand jobs. You never heard that.
The phrase that you heard me repeating over and over again was With you, Im going to build Senegal. I never promised anything, although yes I am going to try to create jobs, thats exactly what Im doing.
The commitments I made, Ive stuck to. Voting in a referendum of a new constitution, dissolving the National Assembly, fresh elections. All those have been or are being done.
You know, when you, the journalists, say things like that, in the international milieu, people can take it to heart, whereas there is nothing true about it.
You mean you met one student who said that I hadnt kept my promise, but I met all the students, and it is not right. Im sorry, but what youre saying is not just.
Q: You have said that you acknowledge the grievances of the students, how to you assess the situation at the universities and do you think you can meet the students demands?
A: I have said that I am prepared to meet the students. They have expressed the need to see me and I will meet them to study their demands. I know what their grievances are. I have documents and reports from the ministers and from the prime minister etc. I know the students are reasonable and, of course, they can have demands. And let me say that, in general, the Senegalese are reasonable people. What Senegalese people dont like though, is that you dont take the trouble to talk to them. But when everything is explained, they understand. So Im ready to receive them and talk.
Whether I can meet their demands, I cannot say, but we can talk about it. But what I want to tell you is that some of their demands I can satisfy. That Im sure of.
Q: Now, what about the perennial strikes that have paralysed Senegal from time to time for the past thirty or so years, including student boycotts? It seems that we are living with what I could call a cycle of strike action. How can we can get this behind us? People thought that with a change of government, with a new dispensation, we could turn the page and get over this, but
A: I dont think that we can change habits and a certain mentality just like that. Its not possible. But we have voted in a constitution that everyone agreed the political parties and ordinary Senegalese people, everyone voted in the referendum on the constitution. But not everyone has yet digested the contents of the constitution.
If the students, for example, all knew what the constitution said about demonstrations and that they are free to hold them I dont why any sort of clashes should happen between the police and the students.
All the students have to do is inform the Minister of the Interior to say we are organizing march on such a day and at such a time and this is the route well be taking etc. But why organize security? because a demonstration has to be safe, and thats it. But perhaps they havent read the details of the constitution in its entirety and they must.
Coming to the issue of schools, I must admit that schooling in Senegal has been neglected for too long. There really hasnt been a schools policy. When you think that you have several schoolchildren studying from one single text book, well children too want to study, they too want a place in the sun. So we have to offer them a minimum. But right at the moment, those basics dont exist. When you think that all over Senegal, with its nine and a half million inhabitants, that schoolchildren make up one million two hundred thousand or so, what about all those other children. Some of them go to Koranic school, but many more are doing nothing all day long.
And I know this section of the youth well. I am in contact with them and all these young people are asking for is to be given responsibility. Ill give you the proof right now. I dont have any miracles in my bag, I dont have any sort of magic potion that people can drink and all of a sudden be cured of this strike mentality, but I think they will discover over time that the president of the republic does not have other concerns than to rebuild Senegal with the youth. Thats what I said during the electoral campaign. I want to build Senegal with the youth. I will show you (the youth) the tasks I want you to fulfil with me.
Thats my programme for the youth and I think that if we manage to resolve a number of material problems, which I do believe can be resolved, then there will be fewer strikes in the school system. But to wipe out strikes altogether, well I dont think thats possible, but at least we can reduce these sorts of disturbances.
Q: You are about to celebrate the first anniversary (1 April) in power as president. The Senegalese press has been reflecting and is saying that, with this tragic incident at the university, it seems that the honeymoon period is over for you.
A: No, no, no. Please ask me questions that I can answer. This is one for other people to reply to. The Senegalese people have to answer that.
Q: How are the legislative elections, coming up in April, looking?
A: They are looking positive. I certainly dont have the right to doubt that. The elections are looking pretty good, very good indeed for us. The concern was that Senegal could become a sort of one party system because of the political developments. There have been a number of political party defections and people joining our (governing PDS) party. I hope to have a majority in the new National Assembly, but I also hope we have a robust opposition, which will be able to counter the decisions and projects of the government, because this sort of political dynamic is the stuff of democracy.
But I cant speak on behalf of the voters, unfortunately. The electorate will speak. Ive been talking to members of the opposition to encourage them and tell them not to give up hope and to resist the defections. But believe me, if we do win a landslide legislative election for my party, it wont really be what I want, its not ideal.
Of course I think my party will win at the next elections, I think we will come out with a majority. But I dont really want Senegal to become a single party system, not in law, but in essence. So I am encouraging the opposition. Yesterday I met the leaders of two opposition parties. I want to help them.
But now I have a little problem. The constitution gives me two options regarding the National Assembly. I can dissolve the assembly and organize early elections. The problem is if I dissolve the assembly, the members will no longer be deputies. They will no longer be eligible for their perks, financial and material. And I put down in the assembly legislation they are discussing now, that in the event that the assembly should be dissolved, the members will keep their salaries etc.
The problem is, if the assembly is dissolved, that will have an effect on the population which will no longer have confidence in the other political parties and will run to my party. I dont want that. So I am not sure that I will dissolve the National Assembly though I think in general thats what the people want, because they see it as a strong political act of leadership. But if I do dissolve the assembly, that means I will rule by political decree and that is not very democratic. So one day my heart tells me one thing, the next day another.
And I want to add that as political leaders, despite our ideological and party differences, we are willing to organize a fair election. This is not a problem, a fair election will not be a problem, because we have an organization that supervises the election. But we want peaceful and elegant elections. This is the best challenge for the Senegalese. We succeeded in electing the president peacefully. We succeeded in adopting the constitution in the referendum (in January). Now the next challenge is how to ensure that we organize peaceful legislative elections.
Q: On the subject of women in Senegal: During the last presidential election in 2000, they voted massively for you. So, there is some surprise that women are not better represented in government. How do you account for this lack of equality?
A: Well, you will remember that in one edition of your magazine (AMINA a magazine for black women) women were demanding the finance ministry portfolio in Senegal. But, simply when I was forming my government, in my sphere Im not saying in the whole of the country, but in my milieu the number of men compared with the women was huge. So, there are many more men in my government than women.
But since Ive been in power as president, I have already said it, I have discovered the wealth of women in Senegal at all levels and in all disciplines. I assure you and I keep repeating it. The first time I held a meeting with women at the presidential palace, about a hundred business women, intellectuals, doctors, teachers and lecturers, I said to them in little Senegal, as small as we are, I am now discovering you. If I had come to know you earlier, the composition of the government would have been very different (Eds there are currently five women ministers out of thirty-three). But I promise you, after the elections, I will place more women in government, because I have got to know them better.
You know in this position as president, Im a bit isolated you know. Thats the way it is. But you know Senegalese women are not looking for equality in numbers in government. What they are asking for is recognition and to be involved in decision and policy making and other important matters. Equality would not really be possible here, and already here theres an injustice, because many more men than women have been trained to work in government. And yes, lets admit it, and that respect women really are trailing behind.
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I wouldnt say that we couldnt find ten or fifteen women of high calibre who are politically savvy enough to be in government, thats not the issue, but when we talk about numbers, the disparity between men and women is so skewed in favour of men that I really dont think this is a question of inequality.
Q: Moving to other internal matters, would you entertain the idea of independence for Casamance (where this is a long time armed rebellion) and what is your current policy for that troubled region?
A: No, I am not thinking along the lines of independence for Casamance for the simple reason that Casamance does not want independence. As president of Senegal, the constitutional referendum I presented to the people on 7 January was for a united and indivisible Senegalese republic, and 76 percent of the people of Casamance region voted and 75 percent voted yes to the constitution. There is no more democratic consultation than that. If they had been against Senegal, against the republic, they would have voted no to the constitution. On the contrary, they voted yes.
And when you consider the exceptional mobilization in Casamance to vote yes in the constitutional referendum, then must consider that this was an absolute no vote for independence.
I am talking to the pro-independence leaders in Casamance and the curious thing is that none of them has talked to me about independence. I can assure you and you can write that down. Not one of the pro-independence leaders has talked to me about independence. So Im even surprised to hear people talking about it.
Q: So what are they talking to you about?
Its public knowledge, so I can tell you about the programme we have signed. It was published in the Senegalese press. There were eleven points. The first was the ceasefire. Im not sure of the order of the rest, but there was one point on disarmament and the surrender of weapons which is completely contrary to the idea of independence and the retreat of the army and a return to the barracks. Another point was economic projects for the reintegration of combatants into normal life. We have put forward these project ideas to the donors who are ready to help as soon as there is peace and a ceasefire in Casamance.
But there was nothing in the programme about independence. And if you ask me, I think with the new constitution adopted by Casamance, with 75 percent of people voting in favour, they are saying we are Senegalese and we will remain Senegalese.
And let me remind you, because it hasnt come out in the press, that there was a document from a whole group of people from Casamance, from different backgrounds and training, to say no to independence.
But of course, there will also be armed minority groups, and you mustnt forget them. But I hope we moving ahead and we can expect peace and disarmament. I could have said the people of Casamance voted no to independence, so I dont need to talk to the outlaws and others and I could have used force. Elsewhere in the world, thats what happens. But Im not going to do that.
I am going to continue the dialogue and I note from the other side too that willingness to talk. The discussions were interrupted by internal factional fighting among the armed rebels, in a leadership battle, but the one who came out at the top is the one, I think, who is for peace in Senegal.
Part 2: Some Success Fighting HIV/AIDS But "We Are Living A Tragedy In Africa Now"
Part 3: A "Continental Strategy" For Building Africa Infrastructure Needed
