Dakar — In the second part of his interview, President Abdoulaye Wade of Senegal discusses his nation's highly praised campaign against HIV/AIDS. According to the United Nations, Senegal leads Africa in combating AIDS in Africa and is one of only three nations worldwide to successfully contain the pandemic. He concludes with a view of foreign aid.
Q: Can you please tell us why you think Senegal has been so successful in the fight against HIV/AIDS and what, in your opinion, is the main challenge remaining?
A: In terms of fighting the disease, as you know, Senegal has the best results in Africa I think. But this battle is not finished. I think they have to put up a barrier against the progression of AIDS. We must not rest on our laurels. But on the other hand, there are some other diseases. In Davos (at the World Economic Forum in Switzerland), so many people were interested in the results of Senegal. I tried to give information on how we have manage and how we have succeeded in fighting HIV\AIDS.
I said that my next challenge will be malaria. I had some talks about malaria with many delegations in Davos and particularly with the Japanese. And I learnt that there is no malaria in Japan, just around the airport. There is no malaria in the country. But I think malaria will be our next challenge. Of course we have other diseases like tuberculosis, but tuberculosis seems to me just one of the signs of poverty.
Now I think with the world-renowned specialists present like Dr Ibrahim Ndoye and Professor Abdoulaye Mboup present, they will give you a more thorough explanation.
Q: In your opinion, how much of Senegals success can be attributed to AIDS prevention efforts, or how much is something else unique to Senegal that might account for the low rate of HIV infection?
A: I think that the most important factor is prevention of course. As we have not yet found the possibility to cure, as we dont have the capacity, nobody has the capacity to cure AIDS, I think the (low) rate in Senegal has its origin in prevention.
I want to tell you that I have decided in the next government, after the elections, to create a Ministry of Prevention and Public Health, because I think that prevention is very, very important in our country. If there is no prevention, I used to say, then it is a race nobody can win. So, this Ministry of Preventive and Public Health will deal with prevention at the level of individuals, the family and society in general and, of course, public health.
Q: How much of the success in keeping the HIV/AIDS rate low can you contribute to other factors, which might be cultural or religious?
A: Yes, yes, yes. I think that you have met people all over the country and got their explanations. Prevention is a policy. The youth are fighting (AIDS). They have organized many meetings and are busy educating each other. And at the international level, we had meetings with the Imams, the people who lead prayers in the mosques. They too are involved in prevention. I dont think that this policy is applied in other countries.
Also the Christians are involved in the policy of prevention. I inaugurated, maybe three weeks ago, a clinic that deals with the detection of HIV\AIDS. I think the main factor is the involvement of the youth and certainly the religious factor. Of course, there are also public efforts to popularize and distribute some information to women.
Q: The question of AIDS is almost taboo in some conservative sections of Senegalese society. I know you have close relations with certain religious groups, will you be asking them to help in the sensitization of these people?
A: Let me say that I have been meeting religious groups in my personal capacity. These religious groups, who you claim dont want to hear anything about AIDS or who are putting up barriers, well I just say I dont know about them. On the contrary, I would say that the religious leaders are very open.
I met members of the Association of Imams here recently. We spoke precisely about those issues. And I congratulated them for their contribution to the prevention of AIDS. I think, in Senegal, most people are involved.
I was speaking rather about Christians and the position of the church and the use of condoms. But among Muslims, there is no problem.
Q: What is your advice to the Senegalese to keep the rates of HIV infection low in the country?
A: If we succeed in inculcating the notion in the mind of every single Senegalese, that they must not transmit the disease, or be the cause of the loss of other peoples lives in any way, then we would have taken a significant step forward. So, its all about education, about information, through the medium of meetings and the most important element is the youth and women.
Take any given woman in any given neighbourhood, if she gathers together a group of ten or twenty women, and she talks to them - without any fanfare, without drums or trumpets and explains the problems of AIDS so that it sinks in, then we will make progress. And that is possible in Senegal. Because you know, many people are committed to the fight against AIDS.
So, my message is beware, there are dangers among us which could lead to your death, transmit the HIV virus and lead to the deaths of others. Secondly, we need to find solutions, change our behaviour and encourage the Senegalese to go for HIV tests.
Correct me if Im wrong, but the instance of HIV infection is higher in Senegal in areas where there is more immigration and emigration. It seems that the virus comes from outside. We have lots of Senegalese who come and go, in and out of the country, and in their areas of origin the prevalence rate is higher. So, if we can convince the wives of emigrants that they must take even more precautions than other women, and protect themselves even more, then thats important.
And also in the countries that the Senegalese have moved to, in that milieu in those so-called Senegalese "villages" where they live abroad -- in France, Gabon or in the United States and elsewhere -- they must be sensitized to the problems of AIDS. Even if in those countries AIDS is not a priority, I dont know. But for our compatriots abroad, we must make it a priority. And that goes especially for Senegalese living in high HIV prevalence zones in East Africa and elsewhere.
We really have to implement these policies, but the most important thing is education, information and communication -- and people must go for HIV tests.
Q: Is there something that other governments -- the United States or other western governments -- can do in this fight against AIDS, if not for Senegal then for Africa as a whole?
A: Im afraid I am simply not in a position to speak on behalf of other governments or judge their policies.
Q: Is there something you expect or want from them, or that you believe they should do?
A: I think that other governments can take advantage of the Senegalese experience, because, we have had some meetings, exchanges of opinion. I went to Mali some months ago to a meeting in Mali, and there was a photographic exhibition and many other things on AIDS. It was on the agenda for the region, for West Africa. This meeting was organized by the Ministry of Health of Mali and I think this is one of the ways we can exchange experiences. But I cannot interfere in other countries policies. Some presidents have invited Senegalese experts to give speeches and lectures on HIV\AIDS.
Q: So you dont have any opinions about what you think the responsibility of western governments or western industries are, when you consider the imbalance of the availability of treatments in countries where the death rates are declining because antiretroviral medicines are within their power to purchase?
A: In general in Africa, people dont have access to medicine, because the prices are very, very expensive. I think only Senegal is benefitting from low prices (for antiretroviral drugs), about ninety percent discount. But this is only for Senegal. So I think there is a very big problem in providing medicine for Africa.
In Davos (at the World Economic Forum in Switzerland), there were many discussions about that. The pharmaceutical companies, and there were many companies there. There were discussions on the way to provide medicine from donor countries.
The general opinion expressed was that they cannot sell medicine below cost price, so they need subsidies from the government. I made some observations that if you relocate your industry to Africa, for example, with the low price of manpower, you can produce the medicine at low prices. But this is a very difficult problem, because it is not the governments that produce medicine, its private enterprise.
We are living a tragedy in Africa now, because of the destruction of our population caused by a disease we cannot cure now. I think what we can do now is really to strengthen and improve our efforts in prevention.
Q: And what do you expect of the industrialized countries?
A: The problem is not to expect something from the industrialized countries, because they do not take account of our needs. This is not their problem. Their problem is to sell their products and who to sell to. Can they sell at a price lower than their cost? They said, for this, they need subsidies. And in the developing countries, in the under-developed countries, the state pays. Somebody has to pay. This is the problem.
Q: When you came back from Davos (Switzerland and the World Economic Forum), you said that since Africa started receiving aid forty years ago, debt has soared and the system has been a failure. But Senegal receives a lot of donor aid to fight AIDS. Does that mean in the future you are going to reduce the amount of aid for Senegal?
A: As far as aid is concerned, you know I am not against donor aid, but I do not want to base government policy on aid. Thats about it. I have nothing against donor aid, if Im given aid Ill accept it, but with every problem I always try to resolve it within our means. I often give the example of the fight against desertification.
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I launched a programme for the fight against desertification last July (2000). And it was students who spearheaded the campaign. Ten thousand volunteers, mainly students, went to mobilize people in the villages to plant trees. We planted seed beds, sixteen million seedlings across the country, in record time.
They planted a million trees with very little money. So, I told my friends in the west, that Ive decided on a project to plant, say, five million trees with a budget of $5 per tree, but they say no. Why $5? You should allocate at least $10 or $15. Lets take the figure of $10. Two million trees at $10 apiece comes to $20m. Well, if I conceive of such a plan and I go to the World Bank and ask for money to plant trees, theyll give it to me, no problem. If I ask France, same reply. If I go to the European Union, theyll say yes too.
But why havent I gone to them? I could have, because one of the global priorities now is to finance the fight against desertification. But I wanted to show them that, despite all the possibilities of getting money from elsewhere, including the international financial organizations, I didnt, because we could do it ourselves, within our own means in Senegal.
So the short answer is that I dont always want to be out with a begging bowl. That goes against my philosophy. We can do a lot of things by ourselves. So I repeat, we are not against aid, no. If we are given assistance in the fight against AIDS, financing professors and supplying material for our laboratories and our research, I am not against that. After all, if we are helped, then its helping science, indeed its helping humanity, because AIDS gets around. There are no frontiers as far as AIDS is concerned. AIDS doesnt need a passport to cross borders. So, in those instances Im not saying no to aid.
The same goes for education. I have even made an appeal for the creation of more universities and assistance for teachers in Africa. Do you understand? So its not this sort of aid that I contest. But there is another sort of aid that I am not for, that goes against my philosophy.
By the way, I was given the task by the OAU (Organisation of African Unity) at the Lome (Togo) summit to organize a continental summit on debt. But thats another problem, another story. I have a way of examining debt that I call "radioscopy". Ive borrowed the medical term. Im working on that.
Part 1: Investigation Into Killing Ordered
Part 3: A "Continental Strategy" For Building Africa Infrastructure Needed
