Maputo, Mozambique — Felicio Zacarias, governor of Mozambique's central province of Sofala, is famous. They call him "Samoriano", or Samora the younger, after Mozambique's first president Samora Machel. Although Machel was assassinated by apartheid South Africa in 1986, he is still revered for his deep commitment to ordinary people and a willingness to cut through formality and bureaucracy to get things done. Zacarias has won a similar reputation.
He is outspoken about what he believes is wrong and willing to take decisive action against petty corruption and high-handedness - as on the occasion in 2000 when he went out driving in the streets of his provincial capital, Beira, dressed in shorts and a T-shirt in order to entrap bribe-taking traffic police; or the time he joined a line incognito at the hospital claiming to be ill so that he could see how health workers were treating members of the public.
Tipped as a potential presidential candidate, he has made the fight against corruption a particular focus and called for those who reveal it to be protected. Akwe Amosu interviewed him in Mozambique's capital, Maputo.
I first visited Maputo in 1990 when the war was still on and Maputo was poor and dilapidated; now the city is busier and richer - it looks as though it is flourishing. Is this a success story?
We can tell it is a success, we can tell that the country is growing, but in my point of view, although you can see some good changes, also you can see that development brings some bad things; like crime is growing, also we are fighting against poverty and you can see more people on the road begging. I believe that it is a situation which affects all the region, even South Africa.
What would you put on the positive side of the balance, what are the things that you feel are going well?
Well, you can see that some of the building constructions are going well, and also the quality of service is improving, even in some infrastructures; in communication, I believe the situation is better than it was.
One of the things that people talk about a lot is the seven percent growth being achieved. That, in African terms, is pretty high.
I dont like to talk about the seven percent growth. OK, it is a good thing but what I believe is that people are not feeling that growth in their pockets. I believe that one of the things that can bring about a change is that the international donor agencies like the Bretton Woods financial institutions must start doing something in the provinces - decentralizing and negotiating projects with the provinces directly, so that people can start feeling some benefit from this presence of these institutions here in Mozambique. Because when we talk about the seven percent growth, if you ask the people, nobody will say that they feel anything in their pocket, so something must change.
So, if you leave Maputo and you travel north, what do you find?
Something is happening, even in the north. I can talk about the centre of the country and the north because you can see that something is happening regarding infrastructure. We have better roads, we can see some construction. But it's not the same as you have down here in Maputo.
But I believe that this imbalance is the consequence of colonialism, and throughout these 27 years, we haven't done enough to change the situation. Maputo is near South Africa, a very big monster - in the positive sense - and this brings something to the south compared with the centre and the north of the country.
I've heard some people refer to the influx of South African investors and businesspeople as a "recolonization". Most people say it as a joke, but is there some truth in it?
No, I don't think that it is a recolonization. I think that when we talk about development, in these days of globalization, you must try and get some partners and of course the richest country in southern Africa is South Africa, and of course they have more financial power than Mozambique and they can take advantage of this; but you cannot talk about recolonization... if we're going to start talking about recolonization, we cannot talk only about South Africa!
Mozambique has overtaken Zimbabwe now as SA's primary investment partner. Few would have predicted that could happen, given Zimbabwe's level of development.
Zimbabwe is a country with a very good infrastructure, with a very good industry but now they now have a political problem. When they solve that problem, they can recover - within three years, they can catch up quickly. Mozambique's infrastructure is very poor compared to Zimbabwe, and Zimbabwe can regain, very quickly, the position they had.
Turning to your province of Sofala, what kind of investment do you want, and why do you think you are not getting it?
If you want investment, you must first have some very good infrastructure, which we dont have in Sofala. If you take the province as a whole, the roads are really very bad, electricity is a problem in Sofala, water quality also is a problem; and also you must try to create conditions in Beira city that will attract investments. Taxes must be lower than in other cities; we should try to bring down our tax in Beira so we can attract more investment than Maputo and other cities - things which we can do slowly but with certainty that we are going the right way.
But is it up to the national government here in Maputo to make the right moves, the right concessions, and the right policy decisions to divert that investment further north?
It is not only the central government. As you may know, we now have local governments, and they have the power to change certain things internally in the cities. Like in Beira city we have a local government, and although they still have some links with the central government, in this case with the minister of finance and the minister of administration, they do have certain powers, they can change certain things that will attract investment. Like the tax which the investors pay; sometimes when you put the tax very high, investors prefer to go the north of the country like Quelimane or Pemba where the taxes are lower than we have in Beira. So something could be done in the province.
But these local governments don't answer to the governor, they answer direct to Maputo. So sometimes we see things and try to approach, only because we have good relations with the local government, and sometimes they accept our view. But sometimes they don't because they have to survive and they think that when you impose a higher tax, that is a way to survive. But sometimes that is wrong. Sometimes you must bring down the taxes so that you can attract investment.
It's not so long ago that the Beira corridor was the big investment site of the region and, of course, this was partly politically driven, because of apartheid; but even post-1990, is there no interest in investing in the Beira corridor, given that investment has already gone there?
No it's not just that. The main problem, in my point of view, is that we don't have good infrastructure. Nobody's going to put a project like Mozal [an aluminium smelter project in Maputo] in Beira, because we don't have enough electric power to do it. At this stage it is just a dream. We can project that, have it in our mind, for 10 or 15 years time, not now. Not unless we get power from somewhere else -it isn't possible from Cabora Bassa [hydro-electric dam]. The Cabora Bassa contract was made during the Portuguese time, and the power that is produced there must be supplied to South Africa, and then South Africa must - you understand? It's very complicated.
What are the social consequences of the lack of investment? What I read about is intense poverty farther north, and I presume that in the post-war period, people must have had hopes that things would change.
Well you shouldn't see it as a north-south problem; I must tell you that if you ignore Maputo city itself, and you go to Maputo province, you can find more poverty than in the north. There are people in the north, say Manica province, who are richer than the people of Maputo province. If you take Maputo city itself - OK; but in the surrounding province of Maputo, people are more poor than the people in Manica or in Nampula province.
But many people outside would find that very strange, I mean if Maputo is getting all of the investment, then surely that benefits people here?
For me it is really not difficult to understand that. That's why I'm telling you that when we talk about Maputo, that doesnt extend to the [rural] districts of the province. If you go to these districts you can see that the infrastructure is poor, no electricity, the quality of water is the same as that of Sofala province. Saying that having big investment in the south has solved all the problems of the south is not true. People do benefit in some way from the investment, but not at the same level everywhere.
What I'd like to understand is why? Why is there no "trickle down" or no investment of these funds that are coming into the city of Maputo into the immediate hinterland and beyond?
I don't know, to be honest with you. I must say that this is a very big country and even if you are talking about a province, you cannot say that investment in Maputo will change the entire province, or the entire southern part of the country.
If you listen to the World Bank, they will tell you that Mozambique's growth rates are very impressive, that it's a forward-looking government, the private sectors of South Africa and Mozambique are making good relations, but that there's an enormous problem with corruption.
Yeah, but corruption is not only a problem for Mozambique. Corruption is a problem of the United States, it's all over the world. We have this problem here in Mozambique, of course, but I believe Mozambique has taken some action. Last year, on the anniversary of independence, the president's speech concentrated on this situation, and we are doing our best to try and fight this problem. We have different types of corruption. You have the corruption at a high level and you have that corruption which affects the population. But it is one of the goals of the government to fight against this problem, and now it is a commitment.
I interviewed President Chissano a few weeks ago when he was in Washington, and he said that they were working on trying to transform the institutions at the civil service level so that it would be possible to start the process of accountability, but it sounded as though it was a long term vision. While it's obvious that that has to be done, I wonder if there is enough direct action, in the sense of tracking down people - whether in the government or outside - who are clearly involved in corruption?
I believe yes. I believe that when you say that it is a long-term vision, it is true, because you must understand certain things about Mozambique. After independence, Mozambique had no people with skills. Most of the Portuguese left the country, and what happened, at that stage, is that we didn't have trained people. You put someone in front of a typewriter and he's a bad typist. So you hire another one! It was a time when nobody could be fired from their job. So you had a lot of people without skills in certain positions, and most of them, they stole from the government. People who were working as servants, they became mayors of cities.
And now to fight this situation will take time, because these people are resistant to giving up their place; although Mozambique now has more trained people, these people are still in the government. It will be a big battle to solve this problem. And even when these people do leave, they leave the system full of corruption. We must bring new people, young people, who are well-trained in order to change this situation.
We have done some things already. We have a legal system that determines a code of conduct for servants of the state, and that we can use as an instrument. If someone does something wrong in the government, we can use it and he can be fired. So we have some legal instruments that are known by all servants of the state.
And is the judiciary sufficiently independent and secure to follow that through and uphold that code of conduct?
First of all, you must understand one thing. Some things are matters of discipline, and you use that code of conduct, but some matters are criminal, and these must go before the judges. These are two different processes. First of all, you are subject to discipline, and second of all if you commit a crime, you are going to court. Although our system of justice in Mozambique is still very weak, I believe that some change is coming slowly, and also within the judiciary; I believe that if the judiciary can get some more public support, they can do better than they are doing now.
But somehow, at least from an outside perspective, I have the impression that there is a connection between corruption in official structures and crime outside - and I suppose the most obvious example would be the assassination of the journalist, Carlos Cardoso, who was investigating a scandal; but there have been other assassinations and often it is suggested that people are being killed so that they can't reveal information that would incriminate senior officials of the government. Is that just gossip, or is there actually a definable problem of that kind?
To be honest with you, in a country which has reached this point, it is quite common to have people claiming that this type of crime is linked with power and corruption; but I believe that it's just because of the way that the country is living that it can be seen like that.
I don't see, myself, that the power[structure] is involved in corruption or that justice is involved in that. We can say that we have a lack of qualified people to investigate and catch the people involved but the people always ask for a quick answer to the problems. Even in developed countries sometimes it can take five or 10 years to find a criminal; but, as you know, here in Mozambique, it's quite easy to hear people saying that the government must be involved in the system because they are not doing anything to discover the criminal.
But in my point of view, I don't think that anyone in the government is involved directly in that; maybe some people with power and enough financial means are involved, but I cannot say that people in the government are involved in that.
Can I ask you a personal question? What's your background?
I am an agronomist.
And when did you go into politics and why?
I got into politics in 1997, when I was working for a multinational corporation from Britain. I was invited into politics by the president, and I felt that I had to do something for my country, so that's why I went into government - and here I am.
I believe I must try to do my best. I don't like corruption, or people without discipline and I try to do my best to rid my country of this.
Well you've established quite a reputation. Everybody I've spoken to has said how courageous and outspoken you've been about things you don't think are right.
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Yeah, when I think that something is wrong, I fight it. And I fight using the legal system I have, so most of the people say that I am an upfront guy - yes I am.
And Is that something that's acceptable in Mozambique today? I mean your party Frelimo used to be a democratic centralist party, not used to having dissent in the ranks. Am I wrong?
Maybe you are wrong, because I have never received any calls from people in the party telling me to "stop that". I do it! (laughs)
Is this a long-term project for you? Are you going to stay in politics?
Do you know, if that depended on me, I would leave this place today, because I feel that my ambition is not to stay in government, I would like to go back and be involved in the business sector. That - I love it, not being a politician.
But I hear you're very popular on the ground in your province.
I don't like to speak about me!
We haven't mentioned the former rebels, now the political opposition, Renamo, in this discussion. There have been some serious problems over the years since the peace agreement in '92, but my impression is that there has been some progress and that Renamo is behaving more like what could be seen as a 'loyal opposition'.
Well, I believe that this opposition is a very weak opposition. Myself, I would prefer a more pro-active opposition which would push the government to move faster, but I don't feel that is there.
Now, you can see that the leader of Renamo is changing his attitude, and I know that he will change again very soon, if someone touches him; he is like a chameleon, he changes very easily. Today, he is a very democratic guy, but tomorrow if I said something regarding his party, or if I catch him off guard, he'll change quickly. So it's difficult for me to say that we really have a leader of the opposition here. We need someone with more sensibility - someone who will be more proactive, more constructively critical, so that the government will hear him and change from second to third gear. Now, we are going slowly.
It sounds to me like you ought to be leading an opposition party.
No, no, no, no, no - never, never.
Looking at the situation on the ground in your province, do you think, at least and despite everything, that the reconciliation between your people has gone well, in other words, that it is a real peace?
Of course. If you go to some areas, like in my province we had two districts which were known as Renamo districts. I can take you this evening, I can drive you there, people are living in peace. Some people are from the opposition party, some from Frelimo, but they live together in peace without problems, and as the governor of that province, I can say I treat all the people the same, that is my duty; and if someone comes to me and says that a member of the government is treating people from the opposition badly, I will take some action on that because they are a citizens of this country and if you think differently to the other guy, what is the problem? So the situation is much better than it was, and this is really a change. People can express their different ideas.
Your province shares a border with Zimbabwe. Has there been any fall-out or consequences from the problems there. People have been fleeing to South Africa. Has there been any impact on Mozambique?
Of course, there is an impact. The main anchor in Sofala province is Beira port and we can see what's happening there these days. The old products that used to be exported from Zimbabwe - the cereals and tobacco, are now being imported to Zimbabwe. Also the pipeline, I believe these days, is not working. So there are a lot of consequences. You can see a lot of people from Zimbabwe coming to Mozambique to buy goods and then going back to Zimbabwe, and this will have an impact on the economy, especially in the central region of Mozambique.
