Maputo, Mozambique — Rwandans go to the polls next month in the first presidential elections since the genocide in 1994, when between 800,000 and one million Tutsi and moderate Hutu were killed by Hutu extremists, most of them hacked to death with machetes.
A front runner in the August ballot is Rwandas leader for the past nine years, President Paul Kagame. Kagame led the Rwandan Patriotic Front (RPF) and the army that swept to power almost a decade ago, triggering an exodus of Hutus across the borders into neighbouring Congo, blamed by Kagame for the mass murder in Rwanda.
Attending the African Union (AU) summit in the Mozambican capital, Maputo, last week, Kagame gave an in-depth interview to Nicholas Kotch of Reuters, the BBCs Solomon Mugera and allAfricas Ofeibea Quist-Arcton.
He touched on strained relations between Rwanda and its neighbours and erstwhile allies in the Democratic Republic of Congo and Uganda and also offered his assessment of the resurgence of fighting across the border in Burundi and the overall security situation in the Great Lakes region.
The first presidential election in Rwanda since the 1994 genocide is scheduled next month. President Kagame, you are a candidate and clearly have considerable backing. But some of your one-time allies, and now political opponents, including Faustin Twagiramungu - your former prime minister - allege that they are not being treated fairly. They want those polls postponed. What is your response?
My response is that the same person, Faustin Twagiramungu, way back, some years back, was making a noise that we were delaying bringing about elections. So Im surprised that when elections come that he starts asking for a postponement. So this is a contradiction in a sense.
But what we have tried to do is to spend a lot of time, the last two years, preparing the constitution which involved all Rwandans, including those living outside. And it was very clear that after the constitution we were going for elections. And we have been making it clear at every stage that we are heading for elections. Therefore the timing cannot really depend on Twagiramungus wishes. The timing should depend on the general views and wishes of the people of Rwanda and I think the people of Rwanda are happy that we are ending the transition and moving forward on a more firm democratic path.
But has there been a level playing field for all the political players in the run-up to the elections?
I believe it is going to be, because everything is in place. We are going to have the whole of August campaigning. Twagiramungu is already in the country and others are in the country. They have been there, free to do whatever they should be doing. Of course Im sure that many of them are worried because they lost a lot of time staying outside Rwanda. And the fact that some of us stayed in Rwanda trying to solve the problems and putting measures in place to allow free and fair elections, means they may see us as having an advantage. But if there is an advantage in that, so be it. Its not our fault that we stayed in the country and they went out of the country.
And you know, definitely in politics - it may not be so scientific, in a sense, but being elected also depends on whether you are appreciated for one reason and another. And if the people of Rwanda appreciate people for having stayed with them and having worked with them to resolve different problems, then Im sure Twagiramungu would want to look at it that this is not a level playing field. But I believe it is and the rules are very clear and they are fair and if everyone plays by those rules, then we are supposed to have free and fair elections.
A nine-year transition is a long time, with you in power as an unelected leader. So coming up to the elections you definitely have an advantage, dont you? You say others stayed out of the country and you remained in Rwanda, but perhaps they felt that they werent really welcome back home.
You see, you are putting us into a situation where you are damned if you do and damned if you dont. Because if we had said lets spend another five years carrying out a campaign, then for me it will be 9+5. And for somebody else it would be five, because he has just started. So in any case I would be ahead of someone who is just starting five in the country.
So there is no situation where you are going to have, in that type of analysis, a level playing field.
Are you confident of victory?
Well I am confident that the process will go very well and Im confident that Rwandans are capable of making a good choice. I am a candidate and I have no reason to believe that Rwandans wont appreciate what I have done for and with them.
Turning now to the situation in neighbouring Burundi. There has been an upsurge in fighting around the capital, Bujumbura, and bombardment of the city by some of the rebel factions. Whats your assessment of the situation, which had been declared as a conflict on the wane?
Well its unfortunate that there is more fighting going on at a time when people in Burundi should be settling down to have peace, building on the peace process that was concluded in Arusha. But that also means there is more work to be done. Everybody is concerned. I am sure, including those who have been helping them to settle down. The region is very concerned. I think there is more work for all of us, the neighbours and the sub-region that has been helping Burundi to get together to resolve their problems, their political problems.
But there are groups that have not come on board with the peace process all along and they are fighting a government, and a transition, that was put in place. So, the starting point for me ,I think, is to bring these sides together again and try to understand what grievances they have and then try to help them to move forward.
But how worried are you about the situation in Burundi? There are African Union troops in place, the South Africans in numbers and the Ethiopians and the Mozambicans, who have a mandate, I believe, to use force. But they dont seem to be responding to disarm those who are bombarding Bujumbura. Why?
Well let me first say, yes, there are those forces - especially from South Africa. Other forces who are supposed to be on the ground havent fully deployed yet. They have only deployed advance parties to go and make assessments of what is happening on the ground. So there are not sufficient forces on the ground to deal with the situation yet. But they have indeed the mandate to sort out some of these problems in the manner you have just described.
Secondly, much as they have deployed into that situation, their intention and the sub-regions intention is to try and calm things in Burundi and make the peace process work. Its not to start by forcing it to work. Its supposed to build on the efforts of [the] Barundi, first of all, who have agreed on a number of issues and how to resolve them.
So I believe soon there will be discussions going on to find out ways of moving forward, in the sense that some groups have continued to destabilise the situation. But the first stage is to bring a political solution. That was the intention. And if that can be backed up by military means, where some groups do not respect the peace process or sometimes endanger civilian lives, then these (AU) forces can be helpful.
Do you have any idea who is supplying the arms that have fuelled the current upsurge of fighting in Burundi?
Of late, I dont know. But the fact is that you can see that these people have arms. If they spend the whole morning firing mortar shells in the capital, Bujumbura, certainly they must be having sources of these ammunitions and probably arms.
I dont know who supplies that. There are countries like South Africa who have been helping in the situation. They should be having this information or the UN that is in some way associated with resolving the problem probably has the information, I dont know.
South Africa is very active in the Great Lakes area. South African troops are guarding the VIPs in Burundi, as well as their peacekeeping duties, and they make up a third of the UN Monuc force in Congo. Does South Africa have your full support?
We are very supportive of that. The whole sub-region is supportive of that. This is why Im saying that the military mass that is on the ground has to be backed up, mainly by the political will and efforts, both internally and from and within the sub region. So thats the way things are moving.
There have been some rather noticeable absentees from the Great Lakes region at the AU summit in Maputo. How do you explain this? It sends the message outside that some of the major actors are not really that interested in resolving this complex mosaic of regional conflicts.
We were supposed to meet mainly over the Congo (DRC) problems. I am not quite sure why President Kabila didnt show up for the summit. But Im also aware that the process in the DRC is moving forward, to put in place the transitional government. So I believe the process is on track, whether President Kabila attended the meeting or not. So we have to see if his not attending has any other dimension to the problem. But so far I have no proof that is the case.
But, with Burundi, I was told that the president was in Europe trying to mobilise resources for his country and the process he is heading, even though there was fighting in the country as he was leaving. But there are people who are ably dealing with the problem, including the South African Deputy President, Jacob Zuma, and others in the region. It is urgent that the region addresses the problem so that it doesnt get out of hand.
Whether the concerned parties are serious or not, we have to look at that when it comes to how things are moving.
Mozambican President Chissano, the new AU chairman, said: "We use your boundaries as bridges to bring us together culturally and historically." Rwanda has had problems with both the Democratic Republic of Congo and Uganda. How are current relations between you and your neighbours?
You can see there is a lot of progress going on in the Democratic Republic of Congo, where all factions that have been fighting - some of them associated with Rwanda, as with Uganda as with Zimbabwe and other neighbours of Congo - they are coming together to establish a transitional government in Kinshasa. So, that is good progress being made and we are very happy to be supportive of that process. And, in the process, that will also continue to improve our relations.
And with Uganda we have also been talking. We are in the process of completely resolving the outstanding disagreements we have had over different issues. But these have nothing to do with cultural and other matters that are being talked about, because cultural matters are very important to African countries. And most of them have similar cultures or they can complement one another on that basis to make progress in other fields. So, I think generally there is tremendous progress being made.
When you say you are supportive of the process going on in the DRC, how does that manifest itself?
The fact that all these factions have come together to form a transitional government is 1) their own efforts and 2) our own efforts to support them, because we realise that they need to get together in line with earlier agreements reached, like the Lusaka Agreement and the Pretoria Agreement - which involved Rwanda and the DRC on the questions of the Interahamwe [Hutu militias responsible for the genocide in Rwanda before moving to the DRC] and the withdrawal of our own forces from the DRC. So we have been respecting our side of the agreement fully. And that was the realisation that if we go along such a path, with the other side also registering progress on what they are supposed to do, then you can eventually have peace in the Congo as well as in the whole region.
Still on the DRC, do you feel that President Kabila is still supporting the ex-FAR, the former Rwandan government forces and the Interahamwe?
For us we are mainly looking at the progress being made on the ground in terms of the fact that the transitional government is being put in place. So that is an improvement on the situation in the Congo and that is going to affect positively our concerns we have had all along based in the Congo. Kabila, President Kabila, is one of the players in the transitional government. He is president of the transitional government, so we expect progress to be made and on that basis it will definitely improve our relations.
So does that mean you no longer consider the DRC a direct threat?
Not any worse - we dont have a worse situation than we had before.
Now one of the prerequisites of the DRC peace deal was the withdrawal of all foreign forces - including Rwandan troops - from Congo. Is that happening?
Not yet. The foreign forces in one sense - that is, Rwanda and Uganda - that has happened. But I can only speak for Rwanda. We have removed all our forces. But there other foreign forces, in a sense. There are still the former soldiers from Rwanda, the ex-FAR and the militias. They are still operating in the Congo. If these are to be called foreign forces as well, I think they are foreign in the sense that they are Rwandans causing problems in another country.
They are still there and they are still fighting and that is what continues to cause trouble to the Congolese and forms the fighting that continues to take place in the area.
And how concerned are you about that continuing conflict in eastern Congo?
We have always been concerned about that, because that is an indication and the reason that took us to Congo in the first place. It has not been fully resolved in respect of the agreements reached in Lusaka and Pretoria to deal with that situation, to disarm these groups and repatriate them and then they stop bringing problems to Rwanda from the Congo and, in some cases - and especially in the past - having caused our deployment of our forces in the Congo.
Are you happy with the pace of progress on the demobilisation and return of the Interahamwe and other militia to Rwanda from DRC?
Something has already happened. We have already had some people repatriated. But there are more still out there. And I think we might make more progress with the establishment of the transitional government and more effective actions on the ground by Monuc and others who have been involved in that.
We still have a lot of people there causing trouble. If we could have more coming out, then there would be less problems.
Would it have helped if President Kabila had been able to come to the Maputo summit?
These summits always serve a good purpose. People meet and discuss and maybe resolve some outstanding issues that remain, so it would have been very useful if all leaders were here, including President Kabila. But I dont know why he didnt come, maybe there were very good reasons. I cannot say more than that.
What about the bloody conflict in the north-eastern Ituri region of Congo, in Bunia, in particular. Its far from Rwandas borders, but it must still be a worry to you.
Even the Ituri problem is being resolved. The international force has been brought there to help pacify the area and bring the warring factions together to reach peace in Ituri. But Ituris peace will come in the broader framework of Congos peace and that also depends on how the different factions meet to form a transitional government in Kinshasa. That is already being done, so I think we need to continue looking forward and supporting the progress that is already being made. That is what I meant by being supportive.
Are you concerned about the French military presence in Ituri, in north-eastern Congo, keeping in mind the French armys "Operation Turquoise" during the Rwanda genocide of 1994, and your accusations that Paris had facilitated the escape of the ex-FAR and Interahamwe, the 'genocidaires, across the border into what was then Zaire, now DRC?
That caused some concerns at the start and there are still concerns today. But the gravity of the situation on the ground in the Ituri was overriding everything else. That is why we supported the deployment of such an international force. Thats why we insisted too that it must be an international force rather than just a French force. It was to deal with that particular problem.
And then it has a limited mandate as well, in terms of period and so on to first stabilise things on the ground so that Monuc, under the UN, can continue the process. And so far the indications are that those are things that are happening.
So the French presence in Bunia doesnt make Rwanda nervous?
No - I wouldnt call it nervous. I would just talk about being concerned that there would be some of these backlashes or spillovers relating to the situation way back when we had the tragic events of the genocide of 1994.
What about the civil war in Liberia and the need for peacekeepers there, do you think this has distracted attention away from Congo?
I think Congo has its own process that is ongoing. You already have the international force taking care of the problems in Ituri. You already have a number of Monuc forces deployed in the Congo - though not with sufficient presence on the ground - to deal with the problems.
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Perhaps it would help to have more resources for more troops on the ground from the UN and the continuing political work to resolve the problems.
But, Liberia being there, and that being a problem for the continent, that needs to be resolved as well. Once there are different hotspots, naturally resources will be divided and also attention will be divided. But I think Congos problems have been ongoing for a very long time and I hope that hopefully we will come to the end of that.
Still on the subject of conflicts, do you think it was right that Zimbabwe should not have been on the agenda at this second African Union summit?
Well, I am not very conversant with that particular situation myself. But I believe also that there are people handling that problem. I dont know how far theyve gone and they have not brought any recommendations to the summit. Maybe they had serious reasons for that.
The debate on conflicts at the AU - is there now a reassessment of the Peace and Security Council? We were just talking to the Ghanaian president, John Kufuor, who said that maybe security needs to be distinguished from defence in some way. Does that mean that the whole principle of this Council is being reviewed?
Well I think distinguishing the two, defence and security, in my view has been done, so its not an outstanding problem. Look at the document that has been prepared when the chiefs of the military zones of different countries met in Addis. The definitions of defence and of security were articulated. So, thats not an issue any more in my viewpoint.
The issue is how we can move forward based on this understanding, then put structures in place that can serve Africa to deliver peace and security - whether separately or one complementing the other. I think that should be the focus of our efforts and I think all those activities will indeed require resources and the effort should be how do we get resources and where to we get them from or how do we optimise the resources we have to be able to move forward? So I see no big problem.
Has Rwanda ratified the protocol to set up the Peace and Security Council?
All of them. We are up to date on the ratification of the protocols and were all paid up (with membership dues). We have never defaulted on payments to the African Union.
The outgoing AU chairman, the South African president Thabo Mbeki, was reminding fellow African leaders of the need to follow up and act on and implement decisions that are made in quite a few different areas. Do you think that is now threatening some of the new institutions, if you like, that are being arranged for the African Union?
It is important. Most of these good ideas being discussed - and there are good ideas - become more important once they are actually to be implemented. As you implement them, that is what is very well desired. So its important, its not enough to just sit there and talk about good things and what needs to be done and later on fail to deliver on them.
So I think the South African president was making a good point in terms of delivery and implementation so that our meetings and our wishes dont remain just in writing. They should also be translated into real actions on the ground that will make a difference to the people of Africa.
A Rwandan, Patrick Mazimhaka - a presidential advisor indeed - has been elected as the deputy chairperson of the African Union Commission. Your comments on his appointment, please.
It is our pride that Mazimhaka can be elected as the vice chair of the Commission. In some small way, Rwanda is going to contribute to rebuilding Africa in the way that is being suggested under the AU and the restructuring of the OAU into the AU and through Nepad (New Partnership for Africas Development) and other structures that provide for the future development of the continent.
We are very happy to have a person in the name of Mazimhaka who is also a capable person.
Arent you going to miss him back home in Rwanda?
Absolutely! We are going to miss him. But I think we arent going to miss him in Africa, we are only going to miss him in Rwanda.
